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'hokay, apparently not done talking about White Collar yet!
It is really interesting watching this show after getting familiar with it through fandom! Because so much of what fandom apparently sees in the show are things that I do not see at all!
And I'm not just talking about shipping things, although this is definitely a gen + canon pairings show all the way for me.
Noooo ... it's just very interesting because I had read a few fics and a few pieces of meta about the show before I started watching it, and I had generally come away with an impression of Neal as much less independent and much more codependent/needy/attached to Peter and El than I see him now that I'm watching the show.
Much, much more so. So much more that it's like a whole different show. It's possible that it's not entirely fanon, that the character dynamics read differently in season one and early season two. I've already realized that I like the season three character dynamics better than in season two. I've really been loving some of the individual season two episodes, but overall I much prefer season three where Neal is working his own game, and is divided between his life with the FBI and his other life. Basically I just really love seeing that his life outside the FBI and outside the very limited circle of Peter, Elizabeth and the FBI team has been developed to the extent that it has. I really like that he has a girlfriend and friends, and he loves the adrenaline high that he gets from a good con, and basically, if anything, working for the FBI and going straight is a step down for him. I like the way that the show's different sets of characters (Peter and El; Peter and the FBI; Neal and his fellow criminal friends) overlap and interact with each other, in their many and varied combinations, and with a certain amount of tension between them.
One area where I do agree with established fanon is that I think it's pretty clear that Neal yearns for a sense of family and belonging, but I don't get the impression that he enjoys taking orders or being under Peter's control, and I definitely don't get the impression that he likes the idea of giving up his autonomy in order to get that sense of stability. It's not an easy choice for him. And I don't think I would like the show nearly so much if it was an easy choice, if it was just a matter of Neal wising up and realizing that he's better off with the FBI.
Like I was just telling![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
trobadora, I disliked Neal when I watched the first couple of episodes -- I saw him as too slick and polished to interest me, too much of a mastermind type. And I wondered if the fanon version of Neal as a sort of clingy shell of a man was an overreaction to that. But now that I'm watching more episodes of the show, I've really come to like the Neal that I see onscreen -- Neal who is a basically decent guy at heart, who does want someone to love him, but is also an adrenaline junkie, and kind of unscrupulous, and basically pretty happy with his life. I like him a lot better than some of the ideas that I'd gotten of him from fandom, where he's essentially a lost soul in need of someone to tell him what to do.
This entry is also posted at http://friendshipper.dreamwidth.org/353803.html with
comments.
And I'm not just talking about shipping things, although this is definitely a gen + canon pairings show all the way for me.
Noooo ... it's just very interesting because I had read a few fics and a few pieces of meta about the show before I started watching it, and I had generally come away with an impression of Neal as much less independent and much more codependent/needy/attached to Peter and El than I see him now that I'm watching the show.
Much, much more so. So much more that it's like a whole different show. It's possible that it's not entirely fanon, that the character dynamics read differently in season one and early season two. I've already realized that I like the season three character dynamics better than in season two. I've really been loving some of the individual season two episodes, but overall I much prefer season three where Neal is working his own game, and is divided between his life with the FBI and his other life. Basically I just really love seeing that his life outside the FBI and outside the very limited circle of Peter, Elizabeth and the FBI team has been developed to the extent that it has. I really like that he has a girlfriend and friends, and he loves the adrenaline high that he gets from a good con, and basically, if anything, working for the FBI and going straight is a step down for him. I like the way that the show's different sets of characters (Peter and El; Peter and the FBI; Neal and his fellow criminal friends) overlap and interact with each other, in their many and varied combinations, and with a certain amount of tension between them.
One area where I do agree with established fanon is that I think it's pretty clear that Neal yearns for a sense of family and belonging, but I don't get the impression that he enjoys taking orders or being under Peter's control, and I definitely don't get the impression that he likes the idea of giving up his autonomy in order to get that sense of stability. It's not an easy choice for him. And I don't think I would like the show nearly so much if it was an easy choice, if it was just a matter of Neal wising up and realizing that he's better off with the FBI.
Like I was just telling
trobadora, I disliked Neal when I watched the first couple of episodes -- I saw him as too slick and polished to interest me, too much of a mastermind type. And I wondered if the fanon version of Neal as a sort of clingy shell of a man was an overreaction to that. But now that I'm watching more episodes of the show, I've really come to like the Neal that I see onscreen -- Neal who is a basically decent guy at heart, who does want someone to love him, but is also an adrenaline junkie, and kind of unscrupulous, and basically pretty happy with his life. I like him a lot better than some of the ideas that I'd gotten of him from fandom, where he's essentially a lost soul in need of someone to tell him what to do.This entry is also posted at http://friendshipper.dreamwidth.org/353803.html with
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And again, I completely agree with you. (Somehow fandom does this to every single character I love - the fanon version always seems to be some version of him or her that I don't even recognise. *sighs*)
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Yes to this in so many ways. Conning and thieving is Neal's way of life, what he's used to, and no way is that going to be easy to give up when it worked so well for him.
I think a lot of the sub!Neal popularity comes down to exaggerating the dynamic of Peter and Neal being on opposite ends. Peter is on the side of the law, therefore Peter is always right, Neal is always wrong and Peter must put Neal in his place (will not go on another Point Blank tag rant, will not go on another Point Blank tag rant, will not...). Other times it's all for H/C purposes. And some people like to... er... have Peter spank Neal (will not go on another spanking rant...). And I almost forgot the father/son dynamic (which did produce some really great fic in which Peter turned out to be Neal's dad, but also produced a lot of spanking fic).
But, yes, Sub!Neal and Dom!Peter are pretty prevalent. As a Neal fan, it gets to me at times. I love me some protective Peter and helpless Neal but in the same way I love protective Ronon/Rodney and helpless John - that is, they are not inherently helpless, just helpless in the moment while still being who they are.
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It is possible that at least some of it comes from the same place as post-Trinity fic in SGA -- people want to put Neal in the abused woobie role and exaggerate Peter's dominance over him? I just don't know. I don't understand the appeal.
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No, they don't. (They really, really don't.) Actually you've hit upon the reason I eventually had to take the WC fic comm off my friendslist-- the characters I was seeing written about there had NOTHING to do with the characters I saw on the screen. Finally it got to the point where even the fic summaries were making me twitch, and I had to get out of there.
I mean, I understand having (and writing to) your kinks, but... at that point it's not even really the same show!
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Die-hard ensemble fan here, too. I loved both Neal and Peter from the very start, and even a spot of awkward writing here and there can't shake that foundation. ;)
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I mostly agree with you (actually, the only thing I don't agree with is your excitement about Neal's current relationship, I'm totally NOT sold on this one).
When they put emphasis on the parental aspect of Peter's relationship to Neal in "What happens in Burma" many people were totally surprised...which surprised me, because to me, it was always there. But I'm certainly NOT a fan of Neal as some sort of helpless woobie.
You need some good gen sites to delve into the fandom?
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Sure, anything you have would be great! :) I already know about
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if you need some good gen fiction, I recommend my rec-list: http://swanpride.livejournal.com/tag/white%20collar%3A%20themed%20rec
73 recs so far and counting (although I wont add anything until the next hiatus). Strictly gen (no pre-slash, no pre-OT3, no spanking).
For information about the show I recommend this site: http://www.whitecollarlexicon.com/ It's much better than the wiki.
Not strictly gen, but very informative: http://whitecollarfixation.blogspot.com/
Although if you are a spoilerphobe, you might want to avoid this site.
Hope that helps...
(about Sara: some fans of her are planning a meme for the female characters - if they come through I'll inform you.)
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