sholio | Highlander through the end of season four

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tv:highlander

Highlander through the end of season four

4x20 - Til Death

ahahahaha, LOLing forever. THIS SHOW. OH THIS SHOW.

4x21 - Judgment Day

eeeeee, show! Thus far this season, we've had an "everybody saves Duncan!" episode, and an "everybody saves Methos!" episode and now we get an "everybody saves Joe!" episode. Er, sorta ...

I actually said "Oh shit, NO!" out loud at the end there, because this show DOES kill characters (a lot! quite often unexpectedly!), and I hadn't actually realized until they brought Joe out to the execution grounds that I actually have no idea if Joe lives 'til the end of the series. *makes little squeaky hyperventilating sounds and rushes off to next episode*

4x22 - One Minute to Midnight

EEEEE NOT DEAD YAY!

*snort* There's an unintentionally funny bit in this episode where Duncan goes into one of his ten-minute flashbacks, and when he comes out of it, the guy he's watching is gone! I cracked up, I must admit. Maybe you should keep your mind on what you're doing, Duncan.

Wow, this show is dark sometimes. But ... I like it? I know I've expressed qualms in the past about the show and (certain) characters maybe going too dark for me, but I don't really think that's going to happen, because I really like how they handle it -- with sympathy for all sides, and no tendency to pull punches. In a different show with a lighter tone, or a show more prone to avoiding the hard consequences of the characters' actions, I think it's something I might struggle with more. But it's just the way this show is -- it gets really black sometimes, and all the characters are capable of doing pretty dark things as they're pushed and pulled by conflicting loyalties, and that's one of the things I like about it. So yeah, not worried really. If I was going to bail, I would've bailed a long time ago. *g*

Edit: Actually, thinking more about this, I think one of the reasons I love this show so much is because I have a hardcore fiction kink for stories about people clinging to moments of happiness and light in a world of corruption and darkness, and this show has really been hitting that kink hard. The sweet moments aren't as sweet if they're not bought at the cost of tragedy and pain. I love those moments when the characters are really truly happy and yet there's no way it can possibly last because there are too many factors conspiring against it. But they're happy now and that's what matters. Wiseguy was another show that really hit that kink hard, and that's probably why it's the closest I've come in the last few years to falling into another major fandom (if there had actually been a fandom for it, which there wasn't).

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

*grins* I love Til Death. One of my very favorites. Especially the end, where Gina and Methos turn the joke around on Duncan and Robert. ROFL. :)

Till Death is SO HILARIOUS. :D

And now I can finally use this icon! \o/

Til Death ROCKED. :D And, yeah -- sorry, Duncan, you kinda had that coming. XD

heeheheeheee. The slouching on the couch -- I really like the way that Methos moves. He's just kind of fun to watch.

Also, I haven't got around to answering your last comment, but see my ETA to this post for more nattering on my Thoughts on Narrative Darkness. :D It's really interesting, because when it happens to be put together in a way that works for me, dark narratives and dark characters REALLY REALLY work for me. And so far, HL seems to be doing it in the way I like, rather than the way I don't?

Methos's slouch is great. And yes, he's very fun to watch. Of course it doesn't hurt that Peter Wingfield isn't exactly ugly, but so much of what makes Methos attractive to me is all in the acting, not in the actor's body.

Till Death is also fabulous for the faces Duncan pulls - when Methos demands the keys to the barge, or at the end when he makes him drop the vase. So hilarious!

About the darkness: I think you're right - if you were going to bail, you would have already. Narrative Darkness (great term!) is such a complicated thing, and it's very hard to predict what will work for someone - you and I sometimes like the same things, but sometimes we don't. But HL is just the right kind of dark for me, and I'm glad it seems to be for you as well. I like what you say above about moments of happiness being sweeter if they're hard won, and I'm definitely with you on that.

Btw, I couldn't wait and just got my hands on the pilot. I think I hadn't actually seen it since it first aired here, and I'd forgotten a lot. Very simplistic narrative, and OMG, was this show cheesy at the beginning! And look at what a complex, layered thing grew out of it. It just annoys me all the more that these days, shows aren't allowed to grow like that. Everything that's not a hit within the first couple episodes gets cancelled. *grumbles*

I could've done without the clips-show flashbacks, but yeah, that whole Watchers arc is dark and I have real sympathy for Jacob. From his perspective, the paranoia is entirely justified. It's all just a mess, and it's everyone's fault and no one person's fault at the same time.

"Till Death" is my FAVOURITE. I was biting my tongue to avoid spoiling you for the Sean Burns flashback, and for the awesome Duncan & Fitz show, and the Duncan & Methos show, and the Gina & Robert are ridiculously in love show. I'm a huge fan of Duncan's Immortal friendships.

Ha, yeah, the clip-show thing ... I could kind of see it coming as soon as the words "put on trial" came up. It's too bad because it was a really strong episode otherwise, and they did their best, but ... CLIP SHOW.

From his perspective, the paranoia is entirely justified. It's all just a mess, and it's everyone's fault and no one person's fault at the same time.

EXACTLY. I loved that so much! Because from Jacob's point of view, this is exactly what any reasonable person would think -- if the only Watchers you've met are Horton's bunch, then of course you'd think that the Watchers are sort of a human-supremacist KKK, and the Watcher organization in general did nothing but encourage this with their rampant paranoia and secrecy. I absolutely love that you can see how the whole thing has spiraled out of control over the last couple of years, and it's gotten to the point where there are good, well-meaning people on all sides, and friends being divided from each other because they're all caught in a no-win situation. That's my very favorite kind of drama and conflict.

And yet ... the tone switches on this show are just brilliantly done, because "Till Death" was one of the funniest things EVER -- I was laughing out loud at Duncan and Fitz (oh, I miss Fitz), and Duncan's cunning plan that was bound to go horribly awry in the worst possible way. OH EVERYBODY.

"Till Death" was the aforementioned favorite comedy episode (and relevant because Methos mentions that he's never been married to an Immortal, for all the "You had 68 wives!?")

Hmm, I never saw the HL world as *that* dark & corrupt? Okay, yes, there's death and pain and loss and all the downsides of life - especially long life - but there's a lot of happiness, too, and silliness, and people being people. There are a few eeeeevil guys in HL, but the majority of chars are ultimately decent people; they might do the wrong things, but for the right reasons...

(Though I know what you mean about the contrast of light and dark - that appeals to me, too; I can't take unrelenting darkness all the time - and I can't take all the chars I like ultimately ending up miserable *coughWhedoncough* - but I enjoy a mix. Though for me I might like it even better in the reverse, a light show that has darker moments - mostly comedic series with darker shadows really get me good, because they make me crave the drama even as I relax and enjoy the comedy...)

(in semi-related news, really, you should put B5 in your queue after HL ^^)

Edited 2011-04-02 01:21 (UTC)

DUNCAN'S FACE. I swear I could love the character (and the actor) just for his facial expressions alone. Well, and the way he delivers some of his lines. Adrian Paul absolutely sells comedy...

I think Methos, too, is one of those characters who could be flat or uninteresting or unlikable in the hands of a different actor, but the way Peter Wingfield plays him with just that bit of childlike innocence is what makes him click over from "enigmatic and kind of creepy" into OMG METHOS. XD

Narrative Darkness (great term!) is such a complicated thing, and it's very hard to predict what will work for someone - you and I sometimes like the same things, but sometimes we don't. But HL is just the right kind of dark for me, and I'm glad it seems to be for you as well. I like what you say above about moments of happiness being sweeter if they're hard won, and I'm definitely with you on that.

*nods* It's a tricky thing, because there's a relatively narrow middle ground where dark (or dark-ish) narratives are simply TOTAL WIN for me, and then a vast area on either side where they miss the mark. HL seems to hit that mark just about perfectly. Yay!

Heh, well, I remember my reaction to the show in the beginning (was that about a month ago now?) -- "This is so cheesy! But cute! I hope it gets better!" And it did. :D

*laughs* Yeah, I figured this was the comedy ep you were talking about! But I didn't figure that out until most of the way through, because I didn't realize Methos was going to play a major role in it. hahahaha, Duncan with his Cunning Plan of Total Suck ... oh Duncan. That episode made me laugh so hard. :D

Hmm, I never saw the HL world as *that* dark & corrupt? Okay, yes, there's death and pain and loss and all the downsides of life - especially long life - but there's a lot of happiness, too, and silliness, and people being people. There are a few eeeeevil guys in HL, but the majority of chars are ultimately decent people; they might do the wrong things, but for the right reasons...

Maybe my standards for "dark" are kind of on the light side. *g* I never have gone for hardcore darkness all that much, though. I think one of the reasons why HL tends to strike me as a rather dark show are, well, all the deaths for one thing, but also the fact that the characters are at odds so much. It's not really a story about characters pulling together against the odds -- I mean, it is to some extent, but it's also about people with conflicting loyalties being forced to choose sides, or to choose between their friends and their morals ... things like that. I think the show could be a whole lot blacker in general and yet seem a lot more cheerful to me if the characters didn't spend so much time at odds with each other.

I can't take unrelenting darkness all the time - and I can't take all the chars I like ultimately ending up miserable *coughWhedoncough* - but I enjoy a mix.

ha ... Whedon ... yes ... but in general, yes, exactly! I suppose I do lean more towards the lighter side for stuff I fan on, but the things I love the most, that keep me coming back, have a good mix of both. (And, yeah, I totally do plan on watching B5 -- so that my sister can stop trying and failing to keep from almost-spoiling me, for one thing -- but I think it's going to be a while, since Fringe and Heroes are both ahead of it ...)

Though for me I might like it even better in the reverse, a light show that has darker moments

You've seen Red Dwarf, right? Actually, Red Dwarf pretty much DEFINES funny-yet-dark for me, because it's absolutely silly and yet, if you think about it, that's an incredibly bleak universe they exist in ...

Also, on the subject of narrative darkness, there's more to life than just fanning. The darker a show goes and the more narratively tight it is, the less I'm inclined to fan on it -- but, damn, the more I admire and enjoy it as fiction. (Well, up to a point -- like I was talking to

xparrot below, I really don't like unrelenting darkness at all -- but the stories that I love and respect as narratives are often a bit darker than the stories I fan on.) I have always been a bit confused and annoyed by those areas of fandom that seem to value fanning on a show over watching a good show ... given the choice between a show that is kinda bland but easy to fan on, and a show that is a really good show and an excellent, moving viewing experience with few places for fangirls to hang their hats, I'll take the second every time, you know?

Oh, and another thought about the show -- I think one of the things that makes it feel darker to me is that the show has really done a good job of making a case for Duncan's attachments being temporary. Not just in narrative lip service, but in what they've actually shown us. The first four seasons have given us a ton of his friends' deaths, and a slow, constant changing in his relationships with other people -- old friends and lovers drift away or die, new ones become close. Even though I agree that it's a universe populated for the most part with basically decent people, it's also a universe in constant flux, and the show is very faithful about depicting it this way. So no matter how close he is to the people he's close to at any given point in the show, it's basically a given that he won't be in a season or three -- they'll leave, or die, or things will just change. For a show that's about people who live forever, it's a very impermanent show, and there's no doubt in my mind that Duncan will have to continue living on his toes and constantly reinventing himself in the future, just as he has in the past. It's definitely a very hopeful show (I think someone said in my comments awhile back that Duncan is basically the living embodiment of hope, and I think that's very true!) but it's a kind of hope that seldom allows for stability or permanence ... but rather, requires the resilience to handle constant loss and renewal.

"She's taking the vinyl? Och, she's leaving!" Oh man, that episode is perfection. Methos is just the icing on the cake, really (there's a couple other Fitz-flashback eps that I also adore, even Methos-less...)

I think the show could be a whole lot blacker in general and yet seem a lot more cheerful to me if the characters didn't spend so much time at odds with each other.

Hmm, this is true...though oddly I think it's why HL doesn't come across as *that* dark to me, because the shows I think of as really dark are those in which the chars *stay* at odds - like BSG or Lost, where almost no one seems to truly like one another and it's all shifting alliances and affairs and betrayal. While as in HL, there's a lot of conflict, but much of the stories are about working through it, and the love is clearly there for all it's tested...

Am curious about Fringe; never seen it but it sounds intriguing. Heroes...I quit that in 2nd season. (Last straw was when they had scenes set historical Japan, without so much as bothering to look up their details on Wiki... ^^;)(HL did a rather better job with Japan, from what I recall; at least I don't remember Duncan's flashbacks standing out in my mind as particularly egregious?)

You've seen Red Dwarf, right? Actually, Red Dwarf pretty much DEFINES funny-yet-dark for me, because it's absolutely silly and yet, if you think about it, that's an incredibly bleak universe they exist in ...

Yes, definitely! I almost can't fan on RD because it's *so* bleak, when you take it seriously - but it's marvelous all the same...

Hmm, yes, this I can see! That's why I said before that it reminds me of Angel:tS, which has the same themes of change and impermanence...I think the main different is that the writers of HL are mostly interested in telling stories about this Highlander guy who happens to be Immortal, while as Wheden is more interested in SYSTEMATICALLY DESTROYING ALL JOY IN HIS CHARACTERS' LIVES.

*ahem* Not that I'm bitter or nothin' :P

--Actually, thinking about it a little more - and to go totally philosophical - I think part of why HL comes across to me as less "dark" and more "realistic" is the flashbacks; they can bring back dark pasts, but they can bring back happy ones, too. Like Fitz, dead but not forgotten - all the good times he had with Duncan are still remembered and still enjoyable, and his influence on Duncan's life continues even if he's gone. For that matter Tessa is likewise; it's tragic she's gone, but the beauty and joy of what she and Duncan has still is real. So while things do change, and good times pass and loved ones are lost, they still matter.

...and from a fan perspective, it means that even if you lose chars you like, you don't necessarily entirely lose them, as you would in another show. Sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too thing - all the angst, none of the calories! XD

OH FINALLY. I'm up to 5x04, damnit with noone to share the squee with XD

I think one of the reasons I love this show so much is because I have a hardcore fiction kink for stories about people clinging to moments of happiness and light in a world of corruption and darkness, and this show has really been hitting that kink hard.

meee tooo!

I love HL for that reason.

That is all you'll say about Til Death?

I love that episode! It is so hilarious! It might be one of my favourite episodes in HL just for the sputtering noises MacLeod makes at the end.

And you didn't comment on 4x17-4x19 at all...there's a moment there that I love, when Methos is in the basement mourning Alexa in his own way, and Duncan comes find him to both be there for him and use him to find information from the Watchers. And Methos says, "We have lives you know!" completely identifying with the Watchers. Mac gets this weird look on his face, but doens't pursue.

I love that scene so much. THe conflicting loyalties of Joe being a friend to an immortal (or three) and yet having to follow his rules. Of Methos so shamelessly wanting Duncan to live even at the expense of another person's life and yet (one assumes from his anger) regretting his actions after the fact.

I love the way Joe says, "It's over! It's got to be over!!"

Just so many moments in those episodes that I adore.

I'm very much into dark stories but there's got to be hope for me to fan them. There are many very well written things out there that just suck all the joy out of life for me. And what I love about HL is those moments of happiness, as you say.

Lost, where almost no one seems to truly like one another and it's all shifting alliances and affairs and betrayal. While as in HL, there's a lot of conflict, but much of the stories are about working through it, and the love is clearly there for all it's tested...

This. Word.

I subscribe to this entire comment! :DDD

4x20 - Til Death

Now you can see why I love Fitz (And wasn't I good at not saying anything!) :)

Adrian Paul is great at comedy. And I love thay they don't shy away from putting their manly hero in that role! :D

I absolutely agree, I can't imagine Methos as played by anyone else could have been this interesting! Peter Wingfield really sells both the young and the old, and the sense that there are layers under the surface. It's awesome.

Hm. I'm very different from you there. I don't get fannish about things I don't admire as fiction. In fact, I really hate the popular dichotomy of "good fiction" and "bad but fannishly interesting fiction" because it's so completely false to me. If I don't think it's good it won't catch my fannish interest. (There's this weird suggestion that all good things are good in the same way, narratively tight and leaving few spaces for the imagination, but I don't think so at all. Each genre, each structural approach has its own markers of quality, and they're not necessarily the same. [/tangent])

But - getting back to the point - among the good things, there's ... how do I put it ... the difference between things I can appreciate, and things I can enjoy. There's plenty of good fiction that I can admire as good fiction, but that I will never be able to enjoy in any way other than the purely intellectual. Tragedy, unrelenting darkness and hopeless endings generally fall in that category.

I think it's why HL doesn't come across as *that* dark to me, because the shows I think of as really dark are those in which the chars *stay* at odds

Yes, I'm so completely with you on that. Fandom of course tends to exaggerate the conflict at times (for MAXIMUM DRAMA^TM), but on the actual show, it never just ends with people at odds. And I love that about it.

Edited 2011-04-02 15:34 (UTC)

And Methos says, "We have lives you know!" completely identifying with the Watchers.

I really loved that a lot. ♥

Hmm ... I don't seem to have explained myself very well; let me see if I can explain better! (and I appear to have overrun the comment limit; oops)

I agree with you totally about the "good/literary fiction vs. bad/popular fiction" dichotomy; I've always found that completely ridiculous. Being readable and watchable, being fun, having compelling characters and neat ideas ... those are all quality markers as well!

But for me, the more completely and consistently a show develops its characters and ideas, the less fannishly compelling it becomes for me.

xparrot talks about having "Type A" and "Type B" fandoms for her -- one kind where the show/book/movie is complete on its own and she doesn't want fic for it; the other the kind that leaves gaps and holes that fandom moves in to fill. It doesn't quite work that way for me, because the big thing that sends me in a ficcish direction is discovering a particular character relationship that really pushes my buttons, or a world-building idea that's so marvelous I just have to play with it a little bit. However, I don't have any particular interest in retreading ground that the show has already trodden, so if the show did a great job of developing that particular trope, or if that character relationship has a great trajectory that includes all the sorts of things that I would normally put in fic and then ties up in a satisfying ending, then it's just not going to get me all fired up to go searching for fic. Highlander has already jossed a couple of my plot ideas by doing them itself; the show's writers are just too good at thinking through the ramifications of the world they've created and then building compelling stories around them, damn it. *g* But given the choice between writing it myself or seeing it in the show, I'd much rather see it in the show!

And the other thing that makes me back off fannishly is if I'm reluctant to develop a strong emotional connection to the characters because I'm afraid of getting my heart stomped on. I think that's the big area where it matters to me how dark a show is, or is likely to go, in terms of how fannish I'm going to get about it. A show like SGA lets me sink deeply into the characters and the relationships between them because I'm fairly confident they aren't going to change a whole lot. The show is not entirely static (I don't think it would have held my interest if it had been) but it's mostly static -- the way the team relates to each other in season two is not hugely different from how they relate to each other in season five. The friendships and level of trust are deeper because they've been through more together, but that's about it. You can totally postulate bigger changes in fic and fannish meta, but on the show itself, not much has changed. And for me as a fan, that was great, for a while at least -- the character relationships I loved so much in season two were still there in season five. It is still possible to write about them in a nebulous "anytime", rather than having to specify a particular point in the show's canon because they would be a radically different shape if it was set before or after. You can read fic written during seasons 2 & 3 without being completely thrown by how the writer has failed to anticipate later developments in the characters (though season 1 fic is a little different, a little more dated, I guess, because there were so many changes then).

For me as a viewer, though, I find a show like Highlander more narratively satisfying, where the relationships are in constant flux and if you wrote about it, you'd have to pin it down to a particular season of the show or time period, because it would make a big difference in terms of how the characters relate to each other. I love being surprised and having a show throw things at me that I didn't expect. SGA rarely surprised me. HL does it a lot. But I'm also a little reluctant to hand it my heart completely -- I've noticed that, after diving into a really heavily fannish period in the middle of season four, I've backed off a lot, because I don't want to invest myself too strongly in a character relationship that's almost certainly going to change radically in the next season or two.

I guess part of what makes the difference is that, as far as I know, you fan mostly on characters, right? I don't -- it's the character relationships that make me fannish. It's not that I don't love the characters too (if I don't love all the people involved, it just doesn't really work), but it's the way characters relate to each other that makes my emotions go all flippy. And in a show like HL, where they're in constant flux, I'm reluctant to really get invested in particular relationships -- Joe + Duncan, say, because if I do, it'll break my heart if Joe dies, or if they're enemies at the end of the series. It took me almost a whole season to recover from losing the Duncan + Tessa + Richie triad, and I knew it was going to happen! But getting drawn into those relationships is how I fan; it's just how it works for me. I don't really have another way of doing it.

So I absolutely love HL for not being just a series of episodic adventures in the lives of characters who don't change much. But at the same time, I'm reluctant to invest my fannish heart in it because of that. In some cases I'm afraid it'll change too much; in other cases I know it will (since there's one big spoiler from down the road, which hasn't happened yet but gives me reason not to over-invest in one particular character).

Hee! Well, that is an excellent point. :D (Though I still miss having them around in the "now" time, though ... if only because I feel bad for Duncan, getting his heart broken all the time!)

That episode was SO MUCH FUN, and Fitz and Duncan are absolutely hilarious together! :D (And yes, you were!)

I adored Till Death! There wasn't really a whole lot to say about it though -- since an entire post of giggling would have gotten a bit dull. *g* But, yeah, I think that's going to be one for the inevitable rewatch list (I'm quite sure that I'll be rewatching eps all over the place when I get my DVDs ... WHICH HAVE BEEN MAILED! or so Amazon tells me).

And ditto for not having much to say about the previous few eps -- they were entertaining but didn't really compel me to write up episode reactions. I did really enjoy getting final closure on the Alexa storyline, and Methos and Duncan's interactions in that episode were a lot of fun. I'm not sure if this is just me becoming more familiar with the character or if it's something that's actually there, but it seems like Methos is a lot more subdued post-Alexa, that his more flamboyant, little-kiddish qualities have been toned down a lot ... like he's shut down a bit. But possibly I'm projecting. *g* Or maybe it's just the show becoming more confident in the character they want to display, and not experimenting with him as much as they did in the beginning.

And, yeah, the conflicting loyalties in these episodes -- I love that so much. There are so many subtle things going on. I love the show's nuanced development of the Watchers, and the way that they look so different when seen through Joe's eyes or through Duncan's -- neither character is particularly wrong, but the Watchers are many things, some good and some bad, and that really comes through in the way that each character sees them.

Lost - yeahhhh ... although, I actually think one of the biggest problems with Lost (from my point of view, anyway!) is that the show was entirely focused on romance over friendship; it devoted scads of story time to developing the romantic relationships (often to predictably depressing conclusions), but anything platonic was tossed in as an afterthought, never got any sort of logical development and was completely ignored whenever they felt like it.

(Bitter? Moi?)

... though having said that, did you see the Lost series finale? Because for me, that honestly made up for an awful lot of the show's fail at nearly everything else.

Fringe is also a JJ Abrams show, unfortunately. Thus far, I'm cautiously optimistic but very suspicious. *g*

(HL did a rather better job with Japan, from what I recall; at least I don't remember Duncan's flashbacks standing out in my mind as particularly egregious?)

HL definitely seems to put at least a good-faith effort into their depiction of other cultures and lands -- it's still not exactly a paragon of non-stereotypicalness, but at least they seem to be trying. I was very pleasantly surprised in "Something Wicked" that Duncan's "standard Native American with feathers and tipis" tribe turned out to be ... Lakota (Sioux), which is pretty much where the stereotype comes from. And "heyoka" is a Lakota word (or so Wikipedia tells me), which was the language Duncan had learned and therefore the word he'd know and use. Good show! *pats it*

Oh, right - that does make sense! I think the majority of fans would agree with

xparrot about filling in gaps, or with you about not retreading ground canon has already covered. For me, it's more like - when canon has something that really gets me in that fannish place, what I want is more of the same. So even if the show covers a trope perfectly, includes everything I'd want from fic - I still want the same thing. Not a carbon copy, but more like a variation on a theme? Much like the way in fandom we can read dozens of stories using the same trope, every time bringing something fresh to it. That's what I want from fic in fandoms where canon hits all my buttons just right. Canon can only cover one version, after all, and if I really like something, there can't possibly be enough versions for me. *g*

And the other thing that makes me back off fannishly is if I'm reluctant to develop a strong emotional connection to the characters because I'm afraid of getting my heart stomped on.

Yeah, I completely understand that. It's one reason (out of many) I prefer to be completely spoilt for a show before I watch it - I know what is (mostly/probably) safe to get attached to! *g* You're right, HL isn't a static/episodic show; relationships develop and change. SGA is much safer in that regard, or was for most of its run - and I suppose that's why a lot of people reacted so strongly against the game-changing aspects when they did. If you were invested mainly in the team itself, you were mostly safe - but other cast members changed, and in a show like SGA where the stable status quo is part of the appeal for many, I can see why it's especially upsetting. (Not that any of the cast changes ever bothered me - my interest was very much focused on Sheppard and his team.)

I love being surprised and having a show throw things at me that I didn't expect.

Heh. I don't much like surprises. Waiting for whatever surprise might come next usually distracts me from actually enjoying what I'm watching. (Another reason for my love of spoilers. *g*) And yet I love shows in which character relationships develop just as much as I do the more episodic ones. I love the way everything shifts in HL. It just fits.

Yeah, it's true - my fannish focus is character-centric. Sometimes a specific relationship is an essential part of that, but it's generally one character I'm truly fannish about. (Sheppard without his team, Rodney especially, would still be interesting, if not nearly as much fun, but the team without Sheppard holds little interest for me.) I can see what difference it makes if you're invested in a particular relationship as it stands at a particular time in canon, and you don't know where it might go!

I hope once you've watched the entire show you'll still love it, like I do, and be ready to invest fannishly without holding back.

(Btw, I've watched several more season 1 episodes now. Damn, I miss Joe. I like Tessa a lot, but that police guy whose name I can't seem to remember irritates me a bit, and I miss Joe. *pouts* Funnily, I don't miss Methos - he's not around yet, but he doesn't need to be around all the time even though he's my main fannish focus for HL. But somehow the show doesn't seem quite itself without Joe - I think somehow without even knowing it, my subconscious has decided that the relationship between Duncan and Joe is the heart of the show. Which is probably because I haven't seen season 1 since it first aired, and have rewatched the seasons with Joe at least twice since ... *g* )

Phew, I was so worried I'd spoil as I don't know when I'm spoiling sometimes! \0/

For me, it's more like - when canon has something that really gets me in that fannish place, what I want is more of the same. So even if the show covers a trope perfectly, includes everything I'd want from fic - I still want the same thing. Not a carbon copy, but more like a variation on a theme? Much like the way in fandom we can read dozens of stories using the same trope, every time bringing something fresh to it.

Oh, this makes perfect sense to me! :) Actually, it's interesting because I've always thought of myself as looking for "more of canon!" from fanfic as well. But, thinking about it, I guess that's not entirely true, is it? I've always thought of myself that way because I'm not usually looking for new pairings or anything like that -- I want the specific character relationships, romantic or otherwise, that I've fallen for in canon. But ... I'm not really compelled to go looking for fic if canon has done all the things with those relationships that I'd like to see done in fic. Hmm. Interesting. :D

Anyway, as to the rest of your comment, I'm definitely aware that my spoiler-avoidance is sort of acting against my own interests in this kind of situation. Er. Contrary

friendshipper is contrary? *g*

... admittedly, though, when it comes to spoilers, there are times when forewarned is forearmed. Going into HL, I did know about one character death that I'm glad to know about, especially as invested in the characters as I've ended up becoming. It was good to know that I needed to be careful about certain characters in order to keep from getting my heart broken.

And yeah ... SGA ... getting into SGA fandom when I did (end of season two) I very much got the impression that people in seasons two and three got heavily invested in the status quo, and were pretty badly thrown for a loop when they started changing up the cast. Like you, I was pretty much in it for the team, and actually I ended up liking the heavier focus on the team in season four due to having pared down the cast a bit -- it brought front-and-center the characters that I most wanted to see! But it sucked for fans of the characters who were gone, of course.

Edited 2011-04-03 07:39 (UTC)

I don't much like surprises. Waiting for whatever surprise might come next usually distracts me from actually enjoying what I'm watching.

*nods* And with me, I absolutely glory in the suspense -- it's a big part of the enjoyment that I get out of it. Different strokes for different fans? *g* (But you're doing great at talking about HL without spoiling me -- thank you!)

And, yeah, it's relationships for me, and not characters -- not just characters, I mean. I do fall for characters (I'm crushing pretty hard on several HL characters right now), but what really gets me in a fannish place is their connections to other people. I might like a character individually, but the way to make me love them is to have them love other people. And I really enjoy fictional relationships that exist in a state of flux: they feel more real to me, and I also like the tantalizing suspense of not knowing how they'll develop. But the more I grow to love them, the more nerve-wracking it gets, especially since most shows don't have a terribly good track record of developing and nurturing non-romantic relationships (which are usually what I find myself falling for).

Actually, that's one of the things I'm adoring so much about HL -- they devote so much time to the ups and downs of Duncan's relationships with his friends, particularly Joe and Richie. We've gotten whole multi-episode emotional arcs chronicling their falling-outs and reconciliations, and I love it so much, especially since none of these relationships exist in isolation. Just like I'm not terribly fond of an isolated, friendless hero, I'm also not especially fond of shows which pivot around a character relationship that exists in exclusion to all else -- the "you're the only person in my world, and no one else matters" kind of exclusionary relationships that you occasionally end up with in some of the older buddy-type shows, say, like The Sentinel. Supernatural is kinda that way, too. I don't hate those shows at all, but I don't get as much sense of a world around the main characters as I do with a show like HL, where Duncan exists at the center of a large and complicated web of relationships: friendships and romances, all of them different, and each of those people having their own connections too.

... ah, Highlander. I have fallen so hard. *g*

It's going to be weird going back and watching episodes from the first season now that I've grown used to the later-season cast! There was something so much more innocent about the show then, and, IIRC, it was a lot more focused on Duncan's everyday life than on the meta-arc of the Gathering and so forth. His world was somewhat more contained and personal. Actually, come to think of it, a lot of shows feel that way, especially the ones that became more epic later on than they started out in the beginning. It's always interesting going back and seeing the characters when they were younger, and still a little bit undefined, and all their adventures were yet to be. *g*

Hmm. Interesting. :D

It really is! :D

(I'll take canon over fic any day, but that doesn't mean I don't want the fic. *g* - What is inconceivable to me is choosing fic over canon. That's not how I work at all.)

With SGA, I got into it during the hiatus between s1 and s2 - just before the fandom started to explode. I wasn't as fond of s2 as a whole, even though I loved individual eps to pieces. Then S3 was fantastic, and s4 got even better in my eyes. I think for a lot of people, though, season 2 represented their preferred status quo.

I loved season 4 a lot - in my opinion, it was easily the best season. And while I wasn't as happy with season 5, I thought it suffered from nothing worse than the same mistake they'd already made in season 2, namely adding characters to the main cast who drew the focus away from the team. I liked Beckett and Keller much better when they weren't regulars. *shrugs*

But you're doing great at talking about HL without spoiling me -- thank you!

Hee! I'm glad it's working for you. :)

especially since most shows don't have a terribly good track record of developing and nurturing non-romantic relationships

Yeah, that's very true. I love those as well, and (as you already know) I sometimes get frustrated with the fannish tendency to sexualise absolutely everything. And I really dislike it when romantic/sexual relationships consume everything else. Bah. Like you, I'm rarely fond of shows that do that - but you can guarantee that even if the show doesn't, the fandom will, and sometimes it makes me want to hit my head against the wall.

It's going to be weird going back and watching episodes from the first season now that I've grown used to the later-season cast!

It should definitely be interesting! I watched Amanda's first appearance yesterday. She's not fully herself yet - she's missing some of that vibrancy I always associate with her, and her sad-little-girl expression makes her feel like a different character sometimes. But what struck me the most was that originally, the viewer's allegiance would have been with Tessa, and now ... well. I'm rooting for Amanda just as much if not more. (I just love Amanda. ♥)

There was something so much more innocent about the show then, and, IIRC, it was a lot more focused on Duncan's everyday life than on the meta-arc of the Gathering and so forth.

It's definitely much more grounded in the real world, partly because of Duncan's life with Tessa and Richie, but also with bodies constantly being discovered by the police etc. ... I suppose the latter got toned down out of sheer necessity. *g*

As for the Gathering, I hadn't remembered how present the Gathering was in the beginning. "Now is the time of the Gathering" and all. Not that it ever made much sense - what exactly has changed between any of the flashbacks we get to see and present time? Certainly nothing that makes me think, oh, yeah, the Gathering is here! *g* (I think I've already said this, but I do treat the Gathering as an in-universe myth that characters buy into, but that isn't necessarily objectively true.)

Again I'll say one thing about your reaction to Methos -- it's extremely entertaining to read about it, because in my opinion it mirrors a little what Duncan (or Joe, for that matter) are feeling as they keep encountering different facets of Methos's personality.

You're definetly in line with my own feelings that Alexa's death seems to mark a shift in Methos' way of interracting with the world. He's much more snappy in that episode than he ever allows himself to be previously, for example.

And little details that jump out at me on rewatch of even a comical episode like Till Death is the way he says "I don't give a damn about their marriage" "Is it really that important to you?" "Alright I'll do this for YOU....and you give me the barge." And then later he says he must have been out of his mind to agree to Duncan's scheme.

There's so much you can easily interpret into that scene -- he does it because Duncan asks him too, despite his own reservations. But he attaches a payment for it -- because he doesn't want to look like he'll do it just because he was asked?

He literally giggles with amusement at some point there, and in general seems spectacularly entertained with Duncan's attempts to convince him. And yet, he does do something quite silly and in no way benefiting his own survival there (make another immortal an eternal enemy, potentially).

Many ways to interpret his actions, once again, but so much fun!

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Highlander through the end of season four

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Part one

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Re: Part one

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