sholio | Doctor Who - done with Season 3

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Doctor Who - done with Season 3

*flails*

*flails some more*

I love Martha so much right now that I could EXPLODE FROM SQUEE.

Because ... the first two seasons felt, to me, very much like the story revolved around Rose getting ever more dependent on the Doctor and obsessed with him. This was like -- it was like -- I don't want to say the anti-Rose, because that's not very nice, but it was as if everything I hated about the Rose storyline ... we got the exact opposite of that with Martha. I was honestly DREADING what was going to happen to Martha at the end of the season, because I knew she left the show and what I saw as the two most likely scenarios were 1) Martha dies heroically saving the world and/or the Doctor, or 2) the Doctor, building up his inner armor still higher after the thing with the Master, abandons Martha the same way he abandoned Jack on the satellite, and flies off by himself. In fact, at several points during the finale, I was absolutely convinced that one or the other of those was about to happen.

BUT NO! She saved the world BY HERSELF, and then after all of that, had the strength and courage to walk away -- away from being compared to Rose, away from a man she loved and admired who wasn't willing to open up to her and apparently would never be. And I just loved her so much at that moment that there are no words for it. I really haven't liked the overt shippiness this season, any more than I did with Rose and the Doctor, although I'm kind of getting resigned to the apparent fact that in New Who, this just IS how they're going to frame the Doctor-Companion relationship (as a sexual one) and I'd better get used to it. And then there's the rather overt comparing of Martha with Rose, which is something I never remember happening with any other Companion ... oooh, best not to go there really, because I don't dislike Rose even though I'm very unhappy with her role in the show, quite a different thing. I don't want to build this up as a Rose vs. Martha thing and I'm trying very hard not to do that in my head. But, that final scene? Martha walking away, not bitter, not unhappy, looking forward to her future and giving the Doctor her phone with a hope to stay in touch? AWESOME. And the same thing with Jack -- he's been used and abandoned, spent all those years chasing the Doctor ... and, same deal, walking away with his self-respect intact, still on friendly terms but not in the Doctor's orbit anymore. They are free. They are themselves. They know who they are and what they want, what they need. And ... they are happy.

♥ ♥ ♥

This is what I want! This is what I wanted last season. People who care about each other, and respect each other (well, sort of, because I'm not really sure how much the Doctor actually does respect any of the humans around him, but otherwise...), and rely on each other in a crisis -- but aren't dependent on each other. They have families. They have lives. They have jobs. They have self-respect. But when it matters ... they can be there. My pet fantasy right now (not sure how likely this actually is, but oh well) is that they all stay in touch -- that Martha calls Jack at Torchwood every so often, or that he shows up on her doorstep once in a while when he needs medical help and can't go through the usual channels; that the Doctor, having learned from the Sarah Jane situation, drops in every once in a while and has tea with Martha and they get caught up, and she tells him about her kids and he tells her about seeing galaxies explode and about the stupid thing that his latest Companion did, and they laugh...

The thing is, I don't blame the Doctor for the way he treated Martha and Jack and pretty much every other human on the show. He's not human, and I think I've come to terms with that on New Who. It was a little easier with the old show because Tom Baker (et al) weren't that easy to empathize with. It is easy to empathize with the new Doctors and so I think I was having trouble with the idea that the Time Lords don't see themselves on the same level as humans. My husband jokingly compared the Master's ambitions on Earth to "becoming the king of the termites", and that's a bit of an exaggeration, but, really -- even though the Doctor respects life, values all life, he does not consider humans his equals, and the way that he acts reflects that. And I think both Martha and Jack did actually come to realize that, and to accept who and what he is: an alien with whom they would always have an unequal relationship, someone who would never put them on the same level as himself. That's not something they can change about him. They love him, but they both need more. And they have the strength and self-respect to go out there in the world and find it.

(There is no way to analyze Rose's role in the show, with regards to the above, without sounding like I'm bashing the writers, so I'm going to enjoy my squee right now and not think about it too hard.)

I was so braced for an emotionally devastating ending to Martha's and possibly also Jack's roles in the show that now I'm just suffused with a warm glow of happy show-love. And now I can read Doctor Who meta without fear of spoilers ... though, I'm sort of afraid to at the moment, because I know there's been a lot of wank in the fandom and some very bitter ship wars (which, I can certainly understand because canon itself must have poured some pretty intense fuel on THOSE flames), and, as with Supernatural fandom, I wonder if this might be a fandom I might prefer to orbit from a very safe distance.

I'll just be squeeing quietly in the corner.

*squees*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Martha WINS AT EVERYTHING.

People told me beforehand that I'd probably like Martha, but I had no idea I'd adore her this much. Martha is like ... like the total opposite of everything that drove me nuts with Rose. I've edited the above post about a bajillion times because I keep thinking of new things and I really, really don't want to degenerate into Rose-bashing, but that final episode made me love Martha with a gigantic undying love and I wish she hadn't HAD to make that final decision to walk away (but oh, I'm so glad she did!).

Martha is like ... like the total opposite of everything that drove me nuts with Rose.

YES. That is what I adore about her. Everything that slowly started to go wrong with Rose's characterisation was the complete opposite when it came to Martha. She's just fantastic in so many ways.

They are free. They are themselves. They know who they are and what they want, what they need. And ... they are happy.

SO MUCH LOVE! Yes, that's - that's exactly it! ♥ Really interesting to see your take on it, coming from a different perspective, with different expectations and such (watching it as it aired, I had no idea Martha was going to leave, for example, but also that you've seen some Old Who).

The idea of Jack and Martha staying in touch, and the Doctor dropping in every now and again, it makes me so happy; it's just - for them, they finally found themselves, and ended up happy. But for the Doctor, too, if he can start parting with people in a way that's not so permanent, if he knows there are people who will be there for him? It's good for him too, I think.

Oh, I'm so glad you liked the third season - and, yes, Martha is made of awesome! &hearts (Watch out for the fandom, though. There's hate out there for every single character on the show, but it gets especially bitter when it comes to Martha and Rose...)

But for the Doctor, too, if he can start parting with people in a way that's not so permanent, if he knows there are people who will be there for him? It's good for him too, I think.

Oh, I SO hope they do that on the show! Even if they don't actually show us, I think it'll be personal canon in my head...! But I really, really hope we get to see that. And you know, they really might, because we've seen Jack again, and we know he's going to see Donna again, and when he was with Rose I don't think it was just for her that he used to enjoy coming back to see Jackie and Mickey; in the Christmas special this season, losing that sense of family togetherness seemed to be as hard on him as losing Rose. And there were a few others that he used to return to see, also ... like the Face of Bo ... which, by the way, I'm still kind of trying to wrap my mind around ...

But anyway, yes, I think my fondest hope right now is for the Doctor to start picking up a circle of friends who aren't in his orbit, the way his Companions always are and will always be -- but people he can talk to, people he can go to, people he can depend on. His Companion relationships are always going to be transitory by their nature and his own, but having friends outside that relationship ... it's true that the more tied-down by emotional attachments he becomes, the more tempting it would be to change history in ways he shouldn't, but I still want that for him. And with having a time machine, there's no reason why he couldn't occasionally drop in to say hi to people he used to know -- or even rely on them when he was in trouble.

(Watch out for the fandom, though. There's hate out there for every single character on the show, but it gets especially bitter when it comes to Martha and Rose...)

Yeah, I'd kinda got that impression from a distance, and I'm thinking this really isn't a fandom I want to get close to. I'm that way with SPN fandom, too -- I like discussing the show with the few people I know who are into it, but I'm not really interested in the fic and I'm slightly freaked out by the fandom as a whole.

I really haven't liked the overt shippiness this season, any more than I did with Rose and the Doctor, although I'm kind of getting resigned to the apparent fact that in New Who, this just IS how they're going to frame the Doctor-Companion relationship (as a sexual one) and I'd better get used to it.

Yeah, me too. There's almost enough ambiguity that my shippy-ness filter can just about get me by. I've never really had a problem with the companions falling in love with the Doctor (I can think of at least two Old School Who companions that I'd definitely put in that category) - but I really don't want the two-way OTP-ness. The otherwordly cluelessness of the Doctor always worked for me in the past. But with the New Who they've apparently decided that sexual tension is crucial to any TV show. Whatever. As long as it doesn't play any bigger element that it has so far, I can deal.

And I just basically agree with everything you said - which is kind of boring of me. LOL!

As you and

bibliotech say, Martha really does win at everything. I was totally flailing like an idiot too. Like you said below, I don't want Martha to go - but her doing so was so very, very right for her. So it leaves me torn. I can't wait for the Doctor to respond to a call across time from Martha. It would be even better if they hook up again because something crops up while he's visiting her of his own volition.

MARTHA RULES! MARTHA RULES! MARTHA RULES!

And Jack wins when he's on this show. I still can't get over how much I love Jack on this show but he irritates the bejeezus out of me in "Torchwood". And the "Face of Bo" thing? *dies utterly*

I've got to say that psychic energy thing making the Doctor glow and float like a glowy floating thing was really quite cheesy. But as you've pointed out before, one of the beautiful things about this show is that it can be incredibly cheesy and still work.

Hey, what did you think of the Master? I already adored John Simm because of his work on "Life on Mars" and I think that he totally rocked here. So utterly, utterly nuts! And so very EVIL!!! But there's still something sympathetic about him. And before he regenerated... DEREK JACOBI!!!

More squeeing! More flailing!

And dammit, I need a Martha icon! (Love yours BTW, batmobile indeed!)

(Love yours BTW, batmobile indeed!)

Hee! Thanks! I really like the concept but as far as actual execution, the text is kinda hard to read, darn it...

But with the New Who they've apparently decided that sexual tension is crucial to any TV show. Whatever. As long as it doesn't play any bigger element that it has so far, I can deal.

Yeah, ditto with me. Okay, yeah, it does bug me -- it's not unrealistic in terms of human relationships, but it's really not what I want to see. But it's not in-your-face enough to damage my enjoyment of the show. On the other hand, we're now two-for-two with shippy Companions (three-for-three if you count Jack) and I really, really want something different from the next one.

From all I've heard about Torchwood, I've decided to give this season a miss (maybe watching, or skimming, a couple of episodes so I know who the characters are) and then give it a try next season in the hopes it'll be a little less, well, everything that people have told me Torchwood is. *g*

The Face of Bo! That was hilarious! And I really have no idea if it's supposed to be literal fact or just the writers messing with us, since there's no telling who and what Jack comes in contact with during the rest of his possibly-eternal life, and there are dozens of ways that the name could be the same without the Face of Bo actually being Jack. But, still, that did throw me for a loop -- in a good way! Yet another reason for me NOT to want to watch Torchwood is because this way, I get to enjoy Jack on Doctor Who without thinking about any other incarnations of him ... my squee is unspoiled!

I've got to say that psychic energy thing making the Doctor glow and float like a glowy floating thing was really quite cheesy.

Ha. Very much with you on that. Actually, it was just a little TOO cheesy for me! But by that point, I was caught up enough in the general emotional high of the episode to not really care.

The Master ... hmm. I think I may be the only fangirl on the planet who's actually sort of indifferent to him. He's a good villain and he entertained me, but I don't really feel much of an emotional connection to him. I didn't get massive amounts of squee off his scenes with the Doctor, although the fact that the Doctor looked sort of like Gollum for some of that time probably had something to do with that...

The thing that really chilled me big-time about the Master, though, was his wife (was her name Lucy?) and her interaction with him. I thought they did a really, truly awesome job there of demonstrating the way that ordinary humans react to him, and the callous way that he interacts with them. Seeing her break down from an attractive and self-possessed (if obsessively cultist) woman, to this empty, bruised shell following him around, while he's still reacting to her just exactly as he did in the beginning, making it very obvious that he hasn't really noticed the change and wouldn't have cared if he did -- it's so much MORE chilling than the torture he inflicts on Jack or the way he deliberately humiliates Martha's family, because it's just ... casual. At least when he's trying to break the Doctor's friends, he's taking notice of them as individuals and sentient (if lesser) beings, but with Lucy, she's kind of like a piece of furniture to him.

Actually, it was just a little TOO cheesy for me! But by that point, I was caught up enough in the general emotional high of the episode to not really care.

Yeah, I think the "general emotional high" carried me through too.

From all I've heard about Torchwood, I've decided to give this season a miss (maybe watching, or skimming, a couple of episodes so I know who the characters are) and then give it a try next season in the hopes it'll be a little less, well, everything that people have told me Torchwood is. *g*

Me being one of those people, huh? I must admit that I have very mixed feelings about the news that Martha will be in three episodes of "Torchwood". Martha is one of my favourite characters in "Doctor Who" ever and I want to see more of her, but I really don't like "Torchwood" and it worries me that the dynamics of that show can actually turn Jack into a character that I don't like.

I mean, what's with that? I really love Jack on "Doctor Who" and hence I was so looking forward to "Torchwood" before I actually saw it. And then I did actually watch it and - BLECH! Some of my friends who watch it do tell me that they enjoy it "because it's so fucking awful" (and yes, that is a direct quote). I get that love-it-for-how-bad-it-is thing, but it still leaves me with no sympathy for the characters.

In some ways, Jack's relationship with his team is better viewed from his comments about them in "Doctor Who" because he talks about missing them, etc. But when they're actually together in "Torchwood", they act like wankers and treat each other like shit! Camaraderie? What camaraderie? Show, don't tell, people. SHOW, DON'T TELL!!!

And if "Torchwood" can destroy my Jack-love (albeit temporarily because it revives in the light of his return to "Doctor Who") - I don't want to risk my Martha-love in that squee-destroying show.

Coward? Maybe. But I don't want self-possessed Martha with her world-saving sense of sacrifice and responsibility and her faith and positive thinking to be turned into one of the self-absorbed histrionic Torchwood wankers. NOOOOOOO!!!

LOL. So despite all of this, out of curiosity, I downloaded the season finale of Torchwood, just to see if it's really as bad as people say. I know that sounds like a rather odd place to begin, but I figured that by the final episode, the show should have worked out whatever problems it was going to -- a lot of shows start out rough, but improve as they go along, and it seemed like the season finale should (theoretically) contain the best writing of the season and show it off in its best light.

Okay, so ... if that was its BEST light, may another episode never grace my computer screen again! Wow. I see what you mean about Jack, because Torchwood!Jack is a cold, insensitive jerk. And none of the other characters were likeable at all. Plus, maybe this is just my problem, but they all looked ALIKE! I really had trouble telling apart all three guys (including Jack, unless I got a good look at him) and same problem, though I know this sounds peculiar, with Gwen and whatsername? Tosh? except when I could get a good look at their faces. Part of it is general similarity of hairstyles and clothing between the different characters, but a lot of it is that they're just all hyperserious all the time -- they don't really show a whole lot of personality, that I can see. There's no REASON to try to remember who is who, when none of them seem to have a sense of humor or any sort of interesting personality quirks.

... yeah. Not leaving me wildly enthusiastic. Or interested in ever watching another episode again, actually!

And yeah, although my initial response was to the idea that Jack literally was the same Face of Bo they met, the idea that the name could have been passed on in some other way is also pretty squee-ful. It would require some pretty cool twists on the situation IMHO - and I'm all for that.

The thing with the Master? Hmmm... I wonder if all my Old School Who context has something to do with that. I'm seeing him as an extension of all the other versions of the Master that have gone before. And in that context, Derek Jacobi's gently bumbling professor turning into John Simm's frenetic but charismatic lunatic is all kinds of awesome. And these episodes gave, for the first time that I can recall, a reason for the Master's appetite for destruction. So without all that back history, maybe it isn't that awesome. I have to admit, from the moment that the Face of Bo told the Doctor that he wasn't alone, my brothers and I just knew that it was the Master he was talking about. In the context of the Old School stuff, who else could it have been?

It's interesting what you say about Lucy being a self-possessed woman at the start - coz that wasn't my initial impression of her. Well, not from the moment that the woman reported conned her way in to interview and confront her. From that point, I saw her as a woman who maintained a facade of being strong and poised, but underneath that she depended on the Master for her sense of purpose - which is the cultist thing you describe, I suppose. What I saw was the facade being broken down to reveal what always a lack of strength underneath. If anything, her act of shooting him seemed to be her finally gathering the will to break free.

I always thought that he was using her. Their partnership never seemed to be remotely equal to me. He kept telling her the things she needed to her, to keep her on board with his plan. More a tool for him to use, rather than a piece of the furniture. So yeah, he's completely oblivious to her being a person - and oblivious to her being a threat. Kinda poetic really.

I suppose on some level, the Doctor "used" Martha to save the world. But he did it by building her up and putting faith in her. He didn't manipulate her with no consideration of her freewill. And he definitely didn't disregard her worth and consequence. There's the difference, I think.

I might be describing Lucy a little bit wrong ... it's hard to quite get my brain around what I mean, because she always was sort of dependent on the Master (a groupie, a cultist, something like that), but in the course of the final two episodes, she turns from a person into a shadow of a person. Your description of it, as a facade being broken down to reveal the lack of strength beneath, seems a fairly accurate way to put it, actually ...

I suppose on some level, the Doctor "used" Martha to save the world. But he did it by building her up and putting faith in her. He didn't manipulate her with no consideration of her freewill. And he definitely didn't disregard her worth and consequence. There's the difference, I think.

Oh, definitely! He didn't force her; he inspired her to want to do it on her own. I do sometimes find it a trifle creepy how the Doctor seems to have this magnetic-charismatic effect on the human beings around him, inspiring a level of loyalty that's almost cult-level itself. But he's not cruel in the same way that the Master is. I suppose that I've talked quite a lot in other posts about the Doctor's occasional callousness to the people around him, especially with leaving Jack behind (yes yes, I know there was a reason, but still) and a few of the other things he's done, but seeing him alongside the Master kind of puts it in perspective -- because while the Doctor can be careless with their lives and emotions, either to protect himself or because he just doesn't think about things the same way they do, he's never so shockingly callous, let alone deliberately cruel.

See it takes three posts in response this time! LOL!

I just wanted to say. That's funny but I'm completely unaware of Doctor Who fandom as an entity at this time. This is truly ironic because Doctor Who fandom was my first. As a kid, I was literally a card-carrying member of the Australian Doctor Who Fan Club. And I used to write in to their newsletter from time to time even when I was in university.

But I really don't think I want to get back into "the fandom" for this show - especially not with the shipper-warrish-ness that people have described here. Let the fandom of old live in my memory - and just talk to friends and family about the show as it is now.

From what little I've seen, I'm perfectly happy to stay OUT of the current Who fandom. As with SPN, I don't really have a wild interest in finding fic for the show -- in this case, while I like the individual characters just fine, the character relationships don't really fascinate me in that "OMG must read fic now!" kind of way. So, for this one, I think I'll be happy enough just discussing it with a few friends and enjoy the show itself, without letting fandom spoil my squee.

... and by the way, your new default icon is AWESOME! (Yes, there's that word again!) Where'd you get it? OR did you make it? And while I'm OT anyway, thank you for the plug for my SPN fic. *g*

Well said! I adore Martha for exactly this reason. S3 was brilliant, and the casting, acting and writing generally spot on. From what I can tell, S4 brings us good developments for Martha, Jack and the Doctor. Ahhh, is it Christmas yet?

*bounce*

I'm looking forward to next season already!

Our takes on most of the chars may differ pretty dramatically, but the Martha-love is a shared concept! ^____^ She is the awesome, the awesome, and also, the awesome. With a side of awesome and some awesome on top. (And she will be staying in touch with Jack, it looks like - she's signed for 3 eps of Torchwood next season!)

I liked how Rose was mentioned and remembered in 3rd season, like the Doctor was making a conscious effort to do so, the way he did not with other Companions - not because Rose was that much more to him than anyone else ever, but because he's maybe learned a bit, maybe won't be quite so quick to try to forget and put everything behind him...ehh, like I said, different takes, will be shutting up now! (tho' if you're a glutton for punishment, my pre-finale take on Rose vs Martha was here (http://xparrot.livejournal.com/61988.html), might be more Doctor-positive than you'd prefer. ^^;)

Also agreed on being annoyed by how the Companion relationship emphasizes the romantic in new Who; that's the only element of the series that I'd rather were toned down. But! I have some hopes that next season won't have Doctor/Companion UST...at least Donna wasn't especially attracted to the Doctor before, here's hoping they preserve that aspect of her char!

my pre-finale take on Rose vs Martha was here, might be more Doctor-positive than you'd prefer. ^^;

No, actually, I want a Doctor-positive view of it, and I'll be off to read it shortly! Right now I'm really wanting some sort of mental explanation for the whole Rose/Doctor/Martha thing (rationalizing, fanwanking, whatever the preferred term *grin*) that explains it while making them ALL come off looking good, because I'm having a certain amount of trouble coming up with one that fits the available evidence. But since you like all three characters, you're probably just the person to do it...

I liked how Rose was mentioned and remembered in 3rd season, like the Doctor was making a conscious effort to do so, the way he did not with other Companions - not because Rose was that much more to him than anyone else ever, but because he's maybe learned a bit, maybe won't be quite so quick to try to forget and put everything behind him..

I'm seriously hoping for that. I guess we'll have to see how it's handled in season 4, because if he goes ahead and moves on past Martha with nary a peep, then he's not really learning at all ... but what I'm really, desperately hoping is that the reminders of Rose this season are not specifically because it's Rose, but rather that he's getting a little more focused on keeping old memories alive rather than dropping each former Companion and immediately moving along to the next one. And maybe, just maybe, staying in touch with people he once traveled with, like Martha and Jack. *crosses fingers* Like I said in my answer to

naye above, my fondest hope for the next couple of seasons would be to see him start to build up a circle of friends across time and space -- to move beyond having just one (or sometimes two) people at a time that he can rely on, to having an actual group of steady friends and allies.

Well, I don't know if my fanwanking/rationalizing/whathaveyou will work for you or not - this seems to be one of those cases that we're just watching different shows (I still haven't figured this out, but it's happened with me with fen friends several times before, that we'll watch the same show or movie and see something entirely different...of course this being me, half the time I'm seeing slash where no one else notices it, and the other half I'm oblivious to the most obvious subtext ever, so...yep, I'm weird!)

The Doctor's not going to be moving past Martha entirely no matter what; she's coming back for half the season! Don't know about Jack yet...am crossing fingers that he'll return, though I don't know if the odds are good. Still - fingers crossed! John Barrowman & David Tennant have such exquisite chemistry, want more! Thrilled to pieces about Martha either way. And am very, very curious about how Donna's gonna work out...

Hmmm, I wonder if it's possible for the Doctor to really have a steady group. Jack, maybe, is permanent enough to manage it. Everyone else...the problem is the vagaries of the timestream; I don't understand how the timeline works in Who but he's not allowed/not able to cross over himself too many times...the trouble is, if he meets someone, and then he goes to the future and meets them when they're 70 and they say, "Oh, Doctor, I thought I'd never see you again!" - then that's the last time he sees them! He can't go back in the intervening years without causing possibly universe-ending paradox, same as how when he brought Rose a year in the future they couldn't just pop back. --it's a good thing he was more careful with Martha! I think this is why he avoids getting too close to the people he's not traveling with. The Time Lords were a different case, obviously, but now they're gone...
(it's weird, I love team/friendship stories, and I've always had a thing for true love/soulmates forever (in the friendship way as much as the pairing way) and yet I'm entranced by the Doctor's singularly isolated existence. There's something about his ability to love so deeply even while being so aware of the transience of relationships that touches me...)

this seems to be one of those cases that we're just watching different shows

LOL! Nothing wrong with that, really. I mean, just the fact that we like so many of the same things is nothing short of amazing, considering how far-ranging our tastes are (I mean, someone who likes DBZ and Death Gate and Doctor Who has got to be an incredibly rare combination!) and it's not surprising that we'd see different things in some of the shows we watch.

...the trouble is, if he meets someone, and then he goes to the future and meets them when they're 70 and they say, "Oh, Doctor, I thought I'd never see you again!" - then that's the last time he sees them! He can't go back in the intervening years without causing possibly universe-ending paradox, same as how when he brought Rose a year in the future they couldn't just pop back.

I know he can't make major changes, and he's mentioned a couple of times not messing in people's personal time-lines, but it can't possibly be an absolute, hard-and-fast rule -- because we *know* there are a few times when he's crossed timelines with himself; like getting Martha's attention in the first Martha episode before he's actually, officially met her yet, or meeting Sally Sparrow for the first time after she's already helped him against the Weeping Angels. (I was going to bring up Jack and the Face of Bo -- assuming it's actually true -- but Jack is already a walking paradox, so he might be immune to most of that sort of thing.)

Martha's coming back for half the season? And she's going to be on Torchwood? Squee! I'm looking forward to Donna; I liked her a lot in the one episode she was in, because she doesn't hesitate to tell off the Doctor when he needs it, and I think he actually needs to be around someone who doesn't think he walks on water for a change. I liked their tense, uneasy, not-quite-friendship-but-getting-there sort of relationship; Martha and the Doctor had that too, to some extent, and I enjoyed watching their relationship evolve as he opened up to her a little more, but with Donna he's starting very nearly from ground zero on building a friendship with her, and I'm really looking forward to it! Plus, she seems very unlikely to fall for him romantically; I could be wrong, but it seems like as a Companion she's likely to remain on a strictly platonic level, which, again, is probably good for him at this point.

(I mean, someone who likes DBZ and Death Gate and Doctor Who has got to be an incredibly rare combination!)

Hee - but how can you not like DBZ? (it's funny, in Japan pretty much everyone our age likes DBZ. In a nostalgic 'fun when we were kids' way, but still...people who never read manga or watch anime still know DBZ. It really was that big here - still is, I guess!)
I think that's why I'm going all 'you're interrogating this from the wrong perspective!' with you & Dr. Who - I'm used to you understanding the allure of things that, er, normal people are blind to, so the divergence is jarring! But there is something relieving about it, too, I suppose (makes it easier to sort out which bits of brain are mine ^^)

because we *know* there are a few times when he's crossed timelines with himself; like getting Martha's attention in the first Martha episode before he's actually, officially met her yet, or meeting Sally Sparrow for the first time after she's already helped him against the Weeping Angels.

Ah, but both of those times seem to be operating in a 'fixed timeline' universe (such as what's in Gargoyles. It's the most logical way to handle timetravel, but can be difficult from a storytelling perspective because it's restrictive). Martha sees the Doctor before meeting him in the hospital; the paradox would be created if he didn't go back for the parlor trick. Ditto with Sally Sparrow. There's no paradox there. But if he met his 70-year-old friend, then went back and met him again at 40, that version of the 70-yr-old wouldn't exist anymore, and I don't know what would happen...it's what Jack means, when he's talking about waiting for a version of the Doctor who would coincide with him (that is, it's a tragedy that he didn't meet the Doctor say during the werewolf jaunt; but then Jack wouldn't be there for Torchwood. So he couldn't have met the Doctor, because he didn't, which is why the Doctor's not terribly apologetic about it.)

Fixed timeline isn't how Doctor Who always operates, obviously, since he seems able to change histories sometimes (...at least he says he does, such as stating that the 4th Bountiful Human Empire is off-course. Now that I think about it, does he actually ever change history that we know of? As in things happen differently the second time through? Other than "Father's Day" and that was a right mess.) Especially since alt universes exist. The Doctor implies the universe is flexible, since he compares it to the malleable timeline of "Back to the Future"...but it's not something he mucks around with willingly.

...No, I haven't spent hours & hours discussing various time travel systems with my brother late at night, why do you ask? XD

I am so curious how Donna & the Doctor will shake out, I think it'll be great to have someone who will call him "Martian boy" and smack him when he needs it (and much as I love the Doctor, I will admit he needs it sometimes.) And I hope to heck she doesn't fall for him. I'm all for her going after potential boyfriend candidates wherever they go (and rejecting them as not worthy) while being totally oblivious to the Doctor being a man - would be good for him to get it from that side for once!

it's funny, in Japan pretty much everyone our age likes DBZ. In a nostalgic 'fun when we were kids' way, but still...people who never read manga or watch anime still know DBZ. It really was that big here - still is, I guess!

I imagine that it's probably similar to how Transformers or Knight Rider is over here ... I mean, if you mention Transformers to people our age, everyone knows what it is, even if they haven't watched cartoons since they were little kids. (Even before the movie came out, I mean.) And everyone remembers playing with Transformer toys, and vaguely remembers David Hasslehoff and that black car. It's just part of the cultural landscape.

Ah, but both of those times seem to be operating in a 'fixed timeline' universe (such as what's in Gargoyles. It's the most logical way to handle timetravel, but can be difficult from a storytelling perspective because it's restrictive).

Oh yeah, I know -- the "everything that's happened in the past has already happened, including visits by time travelers" school of time travel. Which honestly makes the most sense to me as far as pure logic goes. I went ahead and worked some of what you said here into the Martha story that I wrote last night, because I still don't think this is necessarily incompatible with the Doctor coming back to check on past Companions, it just means that he'd have to be very, very careful and smart about it.

...it's what Jack means, when he's talking about waiting for a version of the Doctor who would coincide with him

*brain explodes*

*scrapes up brain*

See, this is why talking about time travel isn't good for me. *grin* I'm fascinated by it, and by different ways of doing it in the media, but honestly there's no way it isn't sort of a deus ex machina ... not really sure if that's the right term in this case, but I think the rules change a little bit depending on what the writers want the plot to do.

Stargate time travel really makes the most sense to me (to the extent that something like this can make sense); it uses fixed timelines that branch into parallel universes when something changes. So, for example, if you go back in time and shoot your grandfather, you are now existing in the fixed timeline where you shot your grandfather. You, personally, aren't affected, even though in this timeline you'll never be born, because you're the "you" from the other reality in which you were born. The timeline that you came from still exists, but you can't ever get back to it.

Basically, you can change anything you like in the past; it's just that if you jump back to the future, you'll find yourself in an altered future. There isn't one true reality, just an infinity of different ones. In fact, the "current" Stargate reality has been changed several times; it's no longer the same timeline as of the premiere episode. Paradox is virtually impossible. The downside, though, is that you can't ever truly "save" someone (or the world) by changing the past. The best you can do is create a new future in which the person you're trying to save survives whatever killed them in *your* timeline, but the version of them that you knew is still dead.

Comment limit ahoy!

Doctor Who, on the other hand, seems to go for the "one true reality" approach; there ARE parallel universes, but I don't get the impression that one's actions cause a new one to branch off -- instead you're still stuck in the same timeline with the consequences of your actions. If reality is truly fixed, then paradox shouldn't be a problem at all, because whatever you're going to do to the past has already been done. But it doesn't seem to work this way, because we know that they've genuinely changed the past several times. The Season 3 finale is the most blatant example of mucking around with the past that has happened yet: they went back in time a year, with the express intent of changing their own past. The literal "decimation" of Earth never happens; all those people who originally died are now still alive. How in the world this is compatible with the Season 1 episode where Rose tried and failed to prevent her father's death ... honestly beats the hell out of me. The best I can do at fanwanking it is that maybe, because the Time Lords are a law unto themselves, you can go back in time to change or undo the effects of a Time Lord's actions -- if a reckless driver kills you, it can't be changed, but if a Time Lord kills you, then it can be changed. I'm still working on coming up with a Grand Unified Theory of Doctor Who time travel, though, because right now it kind of looks like the writers change the rules as they go along...

I am so curious how Donna & the Doctor will shake out, I think it'll be great to have someone who will call him "Martian boy" and smack him when he needs it (and much as I love the Doctor, I will admit he needs it sometimes.)

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it for just that reason -- after the last couple of Companions, I think it's honestly going to be very good for him to be around someone who cuts down his ego sometimes, rather than reinforcing it. And Donna has already seen a much darker side of him than most of the Companions get right off the bat; she actually realized that he needs a Companion to reign in his dark side within a few hours of meeting him, which is something that I don't think either Rose or Martha ever really, truly got in all their time of traveling with him -- they were blinded by affection for him, which isn't necessarily *bad*, but I do think Donna has a better awareness of his flaws due to the circumstances under which they met.

I take it the SG-verse starts doing a lot of timetravel, then? I recall a bit of parallel-universe hopping but no actual time-altering in the early seasons of SG-1, but have read summaries suggesting there's more later...anyway, yeah, the multiple distinct universes is one way to handle it (and provides for a lot of dramatic tragedy, because someone's screwed over no matter what, even if not the people of your own timeline.)

What confuses me about Who is that when they go to the Cybermen AU, they explain the alt unis by saying they're made by one's choices making branches, despite that being counter to what we see otherwise. I suspect the writer was just pulling the definition out of the standard scifi cliche hat and not thinking about it.

Ah, but I'm trying to remember, is the 3rd season finale the only time we see the past definitely being changed? Because they have a huuuuuge 'deus ex' there - the aptly named "paradox machine" which they very cleverly do not describe the operation of, but which allows the humans of the future to go back in time and destroy their own ancestors. I had the impression that the paradox machine was what allowed them to so easily rewrite the Master's history of world domination as well. If that's the only exception to the rule, then it makes some sense.

...well, at least in New Who. In Oldschool Who in one ep we saw ("Pyramids of Mars" if I recall correctly) when the companion asks the old, "why do we have to stop this alien from taking over Earth in the past, I know he didn't win, I'm living in the future where he didn't!" the Doctor takes her to the future where he's won, and it's a desolate apocalypse, etc. So...yeah, I think they're just using whatever timetravel rules make the best sense dramatically!

(and this doesn't explain the damage of the Time War, in which Gallifrey doesn't seem to exist anywhere in time, and yet Jack has heard legends about it, so people still remember it...maybe it's just that the Doctor can't cross over his own timeline to go back to it? but one would think he could visit a historical time from before himself...one gets the feeling it's totally gone from history. Ack, so confusing!)

And Martha's going to be on Torchwood? OMG PUPPIES! I just may have to watch that next year ... and that gives me even more hope that there'll be more of the Doctor revisiting old friends in the future, because I would practically bet money that we haven't seen the last of Jack and Torchwood crossing over into the Doctor Whoverse.

And now we know why Jack was left behind. I loved, loved, loved that there was a real reason, that Jack is now "unnatural" and it totally threw the Doctor and unnerved him. No, I didn't love that it happened, but that there was a real reason, a very valid reason, according to the Who canon.

Martha supposedly goes to Torchwood for a few episodes in the new Season! I don't know what they're going to do with her; she's such a much better character than any of the others there besides Jack. I think she and Jack should just BE Torchwood. I liked Rose, though I understand all your issues wiht her. I didn't like Martha continually pining for the Doctor, and I cheered flat out when she walked away.

Just...yes. Those last three episodes were just amazing television, that's all I have to say. Amazing stories. I want the DVDs, NOW.

I think she and Jack should just BE Torchwood.

Ha! That would be awesome -- the Martha and Jack show!

I did really love how the last few episodes of season 3 went a long way towards redeeming some of the earlier issues that I'd had with the show -- Jack's whole storyline was resolved, in a fairly satisfying way (even though it still does hurt that they left him behind), and Martha got a kick-ass ending to her arc (even if it might not actually BE the end, if she comes back).

I'm looking forward to seeing the extras for this season!

season 3 completely rocked and I adored Martha and I loved that she had the strength to walk away but I still want her to come back.

Yeah, I miss Martha ... even though it was the right thing for her to do, I think.

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Doctor Who - done with Season 3

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PS

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