sholio | Got porn?

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Got porn?

Okay, so *shuffles feet* ... a week or so back, I wrote commentfic porn for Porn Battle VI. It's taken me this long to get around to admitting it! Well ... the latter of the two ficlets is really not very porny at all, but it would have been if I hadn't run out of comment space and had to cut it down.

Sleepover, OT4, NC-17

Waiting Game, Ronon/Tealc, PG-13 (Midway tag)

I ... honestly haven't got the slightest idea whether either of these fics succeeds, either as a story or as porn. *g* Written porn doesn't really turn me on, and romance doesn't do much for me in general, so I have no way of judging my own results! Not that I dislike either ficlet - actually, I think they turned out nice, and I'm reasonably happy with them - but with the OT4 in particular, I kept struggling against the editor part of my brain, which kept telling me "This isn't necessary to the story" and "Why are you including that detail?" and "You know, this story would really be stronger if we cut away here".

I don't think I'm cut out to write PWP. *g*

And porn in general - I don't know! Like I said, I don't get much out of it, which makes me wonder what other people get out of it. I suspect I'd be equally clueless if someone asked me why I like h/c, or what I get out of reading/writing it. Uh ... I don't know! I can analyze it until the cows come home (in fact, I enjoy that), but when it comes right down to it, why I enjoy friendship but not (generally) romance, h/c and not porn -- I haven't a clue. I assume I'm just wired that way.

One thing I was thinking about while writing my PWP, though, is that I'm not really fond of isolated h/c snippets, either. As much as I enjoy it when it's integrated into a story, as a stand-alone - the h/c equivalent of PWP *g* - it's not really my thing. So for me, I guess, it's ultimately about the story - the emotional resonance is what I read for, but I need the story in order for the emotions to mean anything. I get far more emotional impact out of an h/c scene (or a romance, or even a sex scene) when it occurs as a natural consequence of the story's actions, rather than being the story's whole reason for being.

I wonder if writing sex and romance might be more natural for me and feel less extraneous as part of a longer story.

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Most of my stories start out as excuses for h/c and grow plots in development. For me, any emotional resolution, whether it involves sex or a person-to-person connection of another sort, is more powerful if there's buildup/context. OTOH, I will skim sometimes to see if the story's going where I want a story to go, if I'm in the mood for h/c moments.

Short stories that work well for me are post-eps and missing scenes, of any genre.

Ooops, that was me!

Oh hi! *g*

Thinking about it, my stories do tend to be built around some kind of seed of emotional connection, but it's not necessarily an h/c scenario. In fact, it's usually not. The h/c is more like an accidental side effect of the fact that my characters lead very active, dangerous lives.

I used to like to write and read sex a lot more, but I got burnt out on it (mainly from many years of writing in an RPG where almost every scene was structured around sex; it wasn't PWP for the most part, but it was really, really detailed and long, because that's just how RP stuff tends to shake out). Now I rarely write a story that's all about sex (though I actually have one in the works at the moment), and while most of my stories include sex of some sort, it's usually no more than a couple lines total and often not meant to be arousing.

I do like writing sex, and writing about sex, because I think it's an interesting part of life. But I am more interested in it for storytelling purposes than for wank fodder.

That's actually one thing I've always liked about your stories, that it feels like the sex is generally there for a reason, and it's messy and realistic at least as much as titillating.

This isn't to say that I object to other people getting their rocks off on, well, whatever gets their rocks off, of course! But for my own reading tastes, the sex needs to be more than simply there to be hot, and I'm starting to realize that one problem I was having with trying to write PWP is that I was actively writing against my own reading tastes, which is hard.

Yeah, I find it really difficult to write PWP now, even when I try. I have twice tried to write something for Porn Battle over on IJ, and not only were both pieces longer than a comment box, they were also like PG-13 (I think both had a kiss and mention of masturbation).

But there's no reason you have to, if it's not working out! If you want to try your hand at sex more, you could always try writing something in a longer story and see how that works.

I find that:

a) My writing style isn't suited to PWP cos I'm horrendously long-winded and can't just dash off a quick shagging scene without somehow setting it in context and describing it all in wordy detail! :lol: I wrote a porny Moonlight fic and it turned out several thousand words long just for one sex scene! :lol:

b) I'm still kinda embarassed about writing porny stuff. Why, I don't know. I seem to have few issues with writing scenes of graphic pain and injury and posting them about the internet, so why does writing about two people having enjoyable and consensual sex make me blush?

I quite enjoy reading porny fic, as long as it's well written, but I do tend to find a fair bit of the plotless PWP stuff kinda strikes me as OOC. I guess I need a context - a little bit of explanation as to how and why these characters would come to be doing that. :lol:

*laughs* Yeah, the long-winded thing ...! With both the ficlets I wrote for Porn Battle, I had to struggle and struggle to get them under the comment limit, and one of them has no sex at all because I basically ran out of words before I made it to the sex, even *with* trimming the heck out of it.

I imagine that porn is probably easier to write with couples who have already reached the stage in canon where they're obviously having sex. But, you know, even there ... just starting to write about a couple in bed leaves me wanting context too -- needing to know how they got here and what the point is.

And the embarrassment ... yeah ... obviously it took me quite awhile to even admit that I'd written them! I don't think of myself as a prudish person, so it surprised me how difficult it actually is to get myself to write porn with all the working bits and not cut away or slip past it with a euphemism or two.

And porn in general - I don't know! Like I said, I don't get much out of it, which makes me wonder what other people get out of it. I suspect I'd be equally clueless if someone asked me why I like h/c, or what I get out of reading/writing it. Uh ... I don't know! I can analyze it until the cows come home (in fact, I enjoy that), but when it comes right down to it, why I enjoy friendship but not (generally) romance, h/c and not porn -- I haven't a clue. I assume I'm just wired that way.

OMG, this is EXACTLY how I feel! ::is delighted:: It's not like I have a problem with slash, or het, or anything, really, but I just don't enjoy it--not straight romance and not PWP. It's okay in (very) small doses in a more complex story, but it's not the reason I read. And yeah, I love h/c, too, and sometimes I feel a little ashamed of it, because that's a kink, too, isn't it? But it's what I like, so I just have to accept it.

Yay, someone else who feels like I do! ::bounces::

Yep! I don't think you're the only one at all; I've had conversations with friends who feel likewise. But I do think it's relatively less common, in fandom, to feel that way.

I'm pretty sure that h/c is, yes, a kink that one is either wired for, or isn't. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Well. *fans self off a bit in the summer Atlanta heat*

I can tell you that they certainly work for -me.-

And that I'd love to see more of the Teal'c / Ronon one, you know, if it happened to suit your fancy. Which is interesting, 'cause that's not usually a pair I grok.

Thank you! I just saw your comment! *g* There *would* have been actual porn in that one but I, er, ran out of comment space, even with cutting and trimming as much as I could. (Silly LJ comment limits!) But I'm really glad to hear it, because I really was *trying* but didn't have a way to judge my own results!

I enjoy reading PWP, but I think I'm like you in that I much prefer that it has some emotional resonance there.

As for writing porn of any kind, I've never actually integrated a sex scene in a larger story (although my chocolatier!John fic promises that will change)--I've only written PWmuchP. When I do write porn, my problem often is that I really really want to write something different from all other porn I've read, so I have to really work to come up with something. (It occurs to me that I'm this way about writing McSmooches, too. Hm.)

Edited 2008-08-12 15:54 (UTC)

When I do write porn, my problem often is that I really really want to write something different from all other porn I've read, so I have to really work to come up with something. (It occurs to me that I'm this way about writing McSmooches, too. Hm.)

This is actually something that's stopped me from writing John/Rodney. I wanted to do something for mcsmooch the last time, but I couldn't come up with anything unique. It's a pairing that's been so thoroughly and completely written about that I *really* can't up with anything that hasn't been done before, usually multiple times (and, similarly, the existing stories are kind of beginning to blur for me -- it's rare for one to really stand out).

PWmuchP. Hee!

This is actually something that's stopped me from writing John/Rodney.

Which makes me sad, as I love your writing.

It's a pairing that's been so thoroughly and completely written about that I *really* can't up with anything that hasn't been done before, usually multiple times

Yes. This, EXACTLY. I can't seem to forget that I'm writing for this whole wide audience--except when I do manage porniness, it's often for a particular person, and it is easier if I don't think of posting it at large until I'm done--for example, I was pretty pleased with my latest pornlet, since I'm relatively sure I haven't seen aural aphrodisiacs anywhere. Hee. (and that was a birthday present, so I felt like the most important thing was that my recipient liked it.)

In my case, I think it's mostly that once I've seen it done, I don't have any real desire to write it (except as an inversion or commentary on the trope, perhaps). I write to fill a gap or explore an idea, and if the gap's been filled, the idea's been explored, I don't feel like there's much else for me to do there. I suspect this is probably one reason why I've been reading/writing less gen h/c over the last year or so, because the show itself has been doing admirably at filling my needs in that area. I've been more interested in working with areas where the show has bigger gaps - developing Pegasus Galaxy cultures; dealing with the consequences of their actions; writing characters who don't have much fic written about them; dealing with love and marriage. And I've abandoned several stories because the show happened to go there - I had one that was really similar to McKay & Mrs. Miller (well, the Rod part) and one that was basically "Real World" only with John and Rodney rather than Elizabeth. And while I'm sure that my version would be different from the show's, and a unique story, I've *seen* it already, so I don't have that much interest in writing it.

But gift fics *are* somewhat different. I enjoy writing them for just that reason (gift stories, exchange stories, challenge stories) because they push you out of your comfort zone a little bit and give you a tangible goal to work towards.

Yeah, what would a snippet of h/c even be? Like Rodney cleaning John's wounds or something? It's not any good without context, and I think porn is pretty much the same way. Pure PWPs don't usually do much for me, but I find the best writers seem to include plot and context even in stories they call PWP. I will admit that porn--or at least sex scenes--can do a lot for me, but I greatly prefer them in the context of a longer story. We're lucky to have so many good writers in SGA that can write a really hot scene in a great plot--crysothemis and resonant are the ones that leap to mind as favorites of mine, but there's no shortage. :D

As for my own writing--I don't write sex that often. I kind of wish I did, maybe I would get better at it. For me the sex works better if it's not the resolution of the story (I believe "Ascending Order" is my only SGA NC-17 that's not a remix). If there's more to go to emotionally finish the story, then the sex can be a step. But if the emotional payoff of a story is --yay, the boys get together at last!--I almost always write a kiss and a fadeout. "One Piece At A Time" seems to be my most popular story, and there are like 10,000 words of buildup and then a kiss that literally lasts one sentence. :D "No Place Like Home" --which you read--is I think my first story that straddles the line a little bit. The boys insisted on ripping their clothes off, but they still had some things they needed to talk about. So there's a little groping and such, but still a fade out before the good stuff.

I've actually been thinking about this a lot, so I'm long-winded, sorry. Like I said, I always think a kiss is enough when the climax of a story is the coming together of the characters, and I get bored when a sex scene is tacked onto the end of a story. But then I'll find myself reading a story that ends with sex, even when it doesn't strictly need it, and it's just so wonderful and emotionally fulfilling and should seem tacked on but doesn't, that I get confused when I think about it. The only thing i can think of is that with certain stories, the characters have been put through the wringer so much--emotionally, physically whatever--that they *deserve* more than just a kiss. That the reader needs more space for the joy and emotion of their coupling. I dunno, I just admire writers that can pull it off.

And personally, I am in complete favor of you writing porn. *cheers*

Yeah, what would a snippet of h/c even be? Like Rodney cleaning John's wounds or something? It's not any good without context, and I think porn is pretty much the same way.

h/c PWP definitely does exist -- it's basically the "payoff" scene from an h/c story without the context. Pretty much what PWP is for romance, in other words.

I actually think the structure of h/c is pretty similar to porn or, in a more general sense, to a romance -- generally, there's some sort of conflict or emotional distance to be overcome and then a series of steps building up to the emotional payoff, followed by unwinding. Which is why the "payoff" scene(s), out of context, don't do much for me (not that I think there's anything wrong with people who *do* get what they're looking for out of them). I think I'm mostly a big-picture kind of gal.

The only thing i can think of is that with certain stories, the characters have been put through the wringer so much--emotionally, physically whatever--that they *deserve* more than just a kiss. That the reader needs more space for the joy and emotion of their coupling.

That makes sense to me. I definitely think the resolution of the story -- how long it is, how intense, how graphic -- should be appropriate to the rest of the story: whatever is needed to end on the right note. My approach to, well, everything emotional in my own writing is generally "less is more" -- I've been guilty in the past, especially with my original writing, of going too far overboard into schmoop and angst, and have made a deliberate effort to cultivate a little more emotional detachment, letting the characters' emotions show in what they're *not* saying. So porn, in general, is kind of the antithesis of that, unless the setup of the story is such that the resolution, the emotional "aha!" moment, can *only* happen in the middle of the sex scene -- and I've certainly read stories like that.

But, really, fanfic is more about gratifying the id than following all the guidelines of good writing, isn't it? I mean, if someone wants to read or write 60,000 words of nonstop porn (I've actually encountered stories like that) then it may not be my cup of tea, and I might never be able to *write* that (at least without feeling like I was forcing myself), but that's not to say it's a bad story just because it skips the buildup. Since I'm more comfortable not writing the graphic sex, my tendency is to cut away -- which is how I handled the sex scene in my gateverse remix story; it might be the most circumspect blow job ever. *g* But the story wasn't about the sex; there's no reason why I couldn't have had a more graphic sex scene in there, but it felt more distracting than necessary ... plus Ronon/Carson is a pairing that's extremely difficult for me to visualize, so I think that my little two-paragraph kinda-sex scene is about the closest I could get to graphic sex without actively squicking myself.

I've been in fandom since I was 16, and I'm still finding it really difficult to type anything on the subject. ^^;: And it's not like I'm a blushing virgin in real life, but. Yes. Um.

Hey, since you're sharing your thoughts...

In my case, I kind of need to... get used to the couple to even be able to read anything porny? Which is why I haven't actually read either of your Porn Battle things. I haven't even dipped my toes on the Teal'c/Ronon pool (I didn't know there was a Teal'c/Ronon pool!), and I'm still testing the waters of OT4.

Really, the only thing I can read without any inhibitions is John/Rodney. I'm used to that! I could sort of imagine writing it. Any other pairing, and I... need how to learn how to see them as a couple (or whatever the appropriate terminology is when you don't want to discriminate against poly) before I can read them having sex.

But once the mental (and emotional) pieces click into place, I can read (and enjoy)... pretty much anything that makes sense in my view of the characters? Because then I can slot whatever porn is happening into my personal fanon view of them, and I won't need a lot of background for why it's happening right here and now.

Really, if the feeling of a piece is right to me, I can buy sex without a lot of build-up. On the other hand, I really prefer stories where sex happens for a reason, if that makes sense? I once tried to explain to a friend who won't read any sex at all that the story I was currently reading had sex, but it was about the characters, not about the sex.

I don't think I explained it very well. I think I'm still not explaining it very well, and I realize I'll probably start contradict myself if I keep going, but... Yes, in the end I do think that the point is that sex as part of a longer story would feel more natural to me, because that way I can get used to how these characters are different from canon. (Because unless we're talking Torchwood, they won't actually be having sex with each other.)

Edited 2008-08-12 20:13 (UTC)

Which is why I haven't actually read either of your Porn Battle things. I haven't even dipped my toes on the Teal'c/Ronon pool (I didn't know there was a Teal'c/Ronon pool!), and I'm still testing the waters of OT4.

I don't think there is a Teal'c/Ronon pool. Possibly a pool of one. *g*

But I certainly don't mind you not reading my porn! What you say, about needing to "get" a pairing first, makes perfect sense to me. Some pairings were really startling to me the first time I encountered them -- I still remember how absolutely shocked I was when I first ran into a threesome (John/Rodney/Teyla) and how it left me with a "Do not want! This is not my characters!" kind of feeling. Now I barely bat an eye at OT4. But there are a few I really just can't read -- John/Teyla, John/Elizabeth, Carson/anyone; even if I can believe the pairing is plausible in canon, that doesn't necessarily translate to being able to read and enjoy it, *especially* on a graphic porny level.

Really, if the feeling of a piece is right to me, I can buy sex without a lot of build-up. On the other hand, I really prefer stories where sex happens for a reason, if that makes sense? I once tried to explain to a friend who won't read any sex at all that the story I was currently reading had sex, but it was about the characters, not about the sex.

Makes sense! Actually, I think this probably describes my response to h/c better than what I'd said above, too. Because it's not that I can't ever enjoy a stand-alone h/c scene, or one that the story is basically hung around. It just needs to be plausible and in-character and to not need that extensive build-up. Which is pretty subjective, thinking about it...

I think the interesting thing about John/Rodney is that, as much of it as I've read (which by now is LOTS), I still don't see it as particularly plausible in terms of canon. Whereas some pairings that are not only plausible in canon, but the show might actually go there (like John/Teyla), do nothing for me.

(Because unless we're talking Torchwood, they won't actually be having sex with each other.)

*snicker* Ah, Torchwood. You know, I don't think I've encountered a TW story yet (kink, poly or otherwise) that didn't make me think, "Yeah, I could see these characters doing this!" If I'm going to play with porn, maybe I should use TW as a playground ...

I don't think there is a Teal'c/Ronon pool. Possibly a pool of one. *g*

You made a pool! I'm impressed. (I am! SGA is big, big fandom, with oceans of pools!)

What you say, about needing to "get" a pairing first, makes perfect sense to me.

It's always interesting to have confirmation that I'm not the only one to do things in a particular way! And - to be really weird here, I'm imagining it's kind of like with any relationship. Some people you can easily get used to in a sexual context, while there are some that you just can't. Even if they are great in every way, you just don't click. I so don't click with John/Elizabeth that it's almost funny to me how it's such a visceral reaction of DO NOT WANT. You've never seen me backclick like I backcklick from that! *g*

As with so many other fannish things, I really can't explain it, there you have it. (And Carson/anyone - I'm with you there! Carson, and also Zelenka/anyone, I think. ...and now I'm thinking "But what about Woolsey?", and my brain is twitching. I have no idea what the twitching actually means, yet.)

It just needs to be plausible and in-character and to not need that extensive build-up. Which is pretty subjective, thinking about it...

I think pretty much everything about fanfic except grammar and spelling is pretty subjective!

I guess I like my h/c to say something about the characters - this is how far a character will go to protect another, this is how far a character will push himself (because it's almost always a "he", with me) for the sake of his friend, this is what happens when the walls come crumbling down...

And sex can do the same thing. Kind of. Though I really, really don't equal porn and h/c! They... they're different. (Except for where I'm now mapping out similarities, simplifying things so I can start with the focus on the characters' bodies; and move on to how the extreme situations of h/c and sex allow the characters to speak more freely, revealing emotions and thoughts that they usually keep hidden. I think I'll stop before I turn it into an essay...!)

I still don't see it as particularly plausible in terms of canon.

Ahh! There was that other discussion I was supposed to remember! Which I'm remembering now, but it's kind of bedtime. I'll put off the remembering until tomorrow, I think. *g*

If I'm going to play with porn, maybe I should use TW as a playground ...

...for some reason, any reply I attempt here turns into innuendo. XD

and now I'm thinking "But what about Woolsey?", and my brain is twitching.

...hmm. *tests out brain* I'm not actually having a problem, though I suppose it would depend on who he's paired with. (He's had so little interaction with anybody -- Woolsey/Sheppard is a gigantic OH GOD NO, but I could actually see Woolsey/Teyla being kind of cute!) Carson having sex with anybody is a big AAAIIIIEEEE BACKCLICK BACKCLICK for me, which makes it a bit odd that I chose to write that for the remix ...! (But the plot bug bit, and I could not say no.)

Though I really, really don't equal porn and h/c! They... they're different. (Except for where I'm now mapping out similarities, simplifying things so I can start with the focus on the characters' bodies; and move on to how the extreme situations of h/c and sex allow the characters to speak more freely, revealing emotions and thoughts that they usually keep hidden. I think I'll stop before I turn it into an essay...!)

*laughs* They're not the same, no, but I think they have a similar kind of progression, don't they? You start out with some kind of emotional distance between the characters, move on to that moment of catharsis or release, and then there's a bit of unwinding at the end... I think the actual mechanism for writing them is not terribly different, even if the result is *quite* different. (Of course, I guess that ANY plot follows more or less that same progression, so, hmm, maybe not as similar as all of that!)

Ahh! There was that other discussion I was supposed to remember! Which I'm remembering now, but it's kind of bedtime.

-- uh, yeah! There was something that we'd decided to come back to later, before I went on vacation, wasn't there? Absolutely cannot for the life of me remember what discussion it was, though! I hope you remember when you wake up. *g*

In some ways, writing PWPs are easy for me because I did them so often in the Establishment (the RPG that [Bad username or site: > mentioned. I'm used to writing them, especially with <lj user=telesilla @ livejournal.com], and they're generally short enough that I don't get into my bad habit of building a world and a plot around it and creating something I'll never finish.

As for h/c, it really depends on the proportion of hurt to comfort for me. I tend to avoid heavy angst, which is often part of the h/c package. I also need to have a sense that even if the characters don't come out completely fixed by the end, they won't be irreparably broken, either.

As for h/c, it really depends on the proportion of hurt to comfort for me. I tend to avoid heavy angst, which is often part of the h/c package. I also need to have a sense that even if the characters don't come out completely fixed by the end, they won't be irreparably broken, either.

I know what you mean. I sometimes wonder if it's entirely accurate to describe myself as an h/c fan, because I'm an awfully picky one. *g* There's so much of what's considered standard in the genre that's really, really not to my tastes. I don't enjoy heavy angst, over-the-top comfort, or Sobbing!Woobie!Manpain -- and I deeply resent magic healing devices and magic healing cocks of all descriptions, as well as the implication running through a lot of h/c that the character can't deal with things on their own.

I can't write sex scenes for the life of me. And I figure, it's already been taken care of by someone else. But I do love me some h/c slash. I look mostly for the comfort part, and that's what I can write. I agree with details. It was so very hard to write the 4 short ones I finally posted. Someone had to poke me to post them, because I thought there wasn't enough details.

As far as McShep is concerned, I really like reading all different versions people come up with, and I'm especially fond of AUs. some writers boggle my mind with their imagination! Okay, I'm a fan. However, no matter how good it is, there are some pairings that don't sit well with me. If I can't see the man-hands being gentle, or a tender kiss, it doesn't work. Friendship first, then I can make a decision. (Still can't read Jack/Daniel! I tried, really! They're only friends to me.) John and Rodney are strangely well-matched, and it has a lot to do with chemistry.

I've been to some distant corners of slash, and there is some crap out there. But, thankfully, the good stuff outweighs the bad.

Happy writing!

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