(no subject)

[sholio]

I've spent the last couple of days being gloomy and glooming all over my friends' comment pages due to Comicon con reports on the SGU panel. Unlike most of the rest of fandom, I wasn't especially upset about the cancellation (when it was first announced, anyhow) and was curious about the new show. On the other hand, every bit of PR and casting info that's trickled out of Bridge Studios over the last year has made me want to see it less, and the Comicon interviews with Brad Wright were really the icing on the cake of DO NOT WANT: at this point, I pretty much want nothing to do with anything that has Brad Wright's name on it, including SGA. It's like an awesome case study in how to take an enthusiastic fanbase and turn them against you.

On the other hand, it kind of puts the bitterness in perspective to think about the many, many other cancellations of shows I've loved over the years, and the different circumstances surrounding each of them. Basically the options are: a) cut down in its prime, b) staggered to a pathetic conclusion several years too late, or c) satisfying conclusion that happened at the right time. Off the top of my head, I can think of ONE good example of "c" (and a few more I've heard about, for shows I haven't seen). Heck, Star Trek, the archetype of sci-fi fandom and one of my favorite TV shows of all time, lurched through three rather uneven seasons before shuffling off the TV coil and didn't pick up in movies 'til, what, 12 or 15 years later? There was next to no chance that SGA would buck the odds and be one of the rare instances of option "c". Actually I think it's pretty cool that it's still supporting a fairly active and enthusiastic fandom. I just wish I could get past the bitterness and gloom to enjoy it.

(Also, I'm still sad about missing the Being Human panel at Comicon. I wish I'd known they were going in time enough to make plans -- despite the fact that it would have thrown a major wrench in the rest of my plans for the summer, I might have found a way to go! When else could I possibly have a chance to see them?)

But I'm currently packing for Writercon and I'm awfully excited about that. Though it's been kind of tricky to explain to my RL friends and family (who don't know about my fannish activities) just where exactly I'm going. "A science fiction writer's convention" seems to be the explanation that satisfies most of them, since they know that I write, just not that I write fanfic too.

greyias, sgatazmy and I will be running a panel on h/c at Writercon -- Saturday from 2-3:30. Come by if you're around!

I'll be traveling until the 14th of August -- I'm sure I'll have intermittent Internet access at hotels and such, but I probably won't be around much. (Not that this is too different from the current situation.)

Edit: Oh crappity, I totally forgot to go vote in the Stargate Fan Awards! Though looking at the website, I see they've extended voting 'til Aug. 15. That'll help ...

Comments

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

What have you been hearing about SGU, pray tell? I've been checking out the official website out of morbid curiosity, and it sounds so much like a remake of Battlestar Galactica that if I had been truly interested in it, I would no longer be. I didn't watch BSG and never regretted it, so more of the same in what had been my bestest favourite fandom is one hell of a DO NOT WANT for me.

Also, all the guys are ugly. Well, the slacker Wallace is cute. And so is Lou Diamond Phillips, but he's toast. Where are my gorgeous hero boys?

[sholio]

What have you been hearing about SGU, pray tell?

... oh god, where to START.

They've been hammering and hammering the DARKER! MORE MATURE! thing from the beginning, along with reminders that they'll be killing off characters, and now, comments from Wright that all the characters have "hero and villain qualities" and vacillate between good and bad -- all of which indicates to me that there's little point in getting invested in (or liking) any of them. But having realized that they're scaring off Stargate fans, now Wright's saying that the show won't be *that* dark and will still include the same wacky humor as the previous two series, and the only thing it really has in common with BSG is that it'll use shaky handheld camera work. New, darker, different! But just the same wacky hijinks you've come to expect! Now with 50% more motion sickness!

Not to mention that it's being written by the same batch of writers from SGA -- who have proven that they aren't very good at writing the specific things that are being hyped for SGU (darker plots, continuing storylines, romance). Why would you take a writing team and hand them a show that specifically plays to their weaknesses? That's just stupid!

Also, apparently SGU actually costs $1 mil more per episode than SGA to make. But they didn't make a 6th season of SGA because they couldn't afford it?

And the casting is rage-inducing. SGA, at least in the beginning, was a distinct step forward from the fairly low bar set by SG1: a female leader (who was never played or hyped as a sex symbol), a primary gate team that was half PoC. In SGU, all the major roles are white boys; the only female characters I saw in the promo stuff are hawt young things in low-cut shirts; the one black character is also a) the only military character who doesn't seem to be an officer, and b) the one who's described in the promo character descriptions as a loose cannon with a homicidally violent streak.

And Wallace is totally a young Rodney, to the extent that every line he spoke in the Comicon preview could be lifted and placed in Rodney's mouth without any changes. Not only are they using basically the same premise from SGA, but stripped of most of the things that made it unique and interesting, but they've apparently recast the same characters!

Carlyle's raspy-voiced, long-haired scruff is totally my kind of thing, but right now I don't think it's much compensation for the gigantic load of DO NOT WAAAAAAANT that goes along with the rest of it. Also, from the preview (this may be a spoiler, though it's mostly speculation on my part) I think he goes darkside.

[alessandriana.livejournal.com]

The Being Human panel at Comic Con was freaking AWESOME. They're so cute together! I just wanted to hug them all! Although going to it meant I had to sit through the Torchwood panel as well, which was much less fun-- lots of pissed off fans asking Pointed Questions due to certain recent events.

Anyways, I was lucky enough to go through the BH autograph signing line twice-- apparently pulling my hair out of its ponytail is a good enough disguise so that they didn't recognize me -__-; -- and, since it's entirely your fault that I got into Being Human, I was wondering if you'd like one of the signed postcard doohickies? I don't actually need two of them.

[sholio]

eeeee! I would totally LOVE a signed postcard. :D Do you have my address, or do you need it?

Lucky you, getting to see them! They all look so adorable in behind-the-scenes videos; they really look like they have a lot of fun and enjoy each other's company.

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

Ha! you lucky dog! I didn't manage to get through/into the mess for autographs, I had just grabbed some of the unsigned postcards for friendshipper

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Oh, I want to hear about what Brad Wright said in that interview too! Do you have a link, or can you give a brief summary? I'm sharpening my sword!

I think I have just fallen in love with Being Human but have only seen the first episode. I believe the panel is up on YouTube, but I haven't watched yet because I'm afraid of spoilers. You could look for it; it's not the same as being there, but it beats nothing!

Have fun at WriterCon!

[sholio]

I love Being Human; it's totally my happy place right now. I was aware there was a video floating around, but hadn't had a chance to sit down and watch it (due to packing and errand-running for Writercon). Perhaps I'll have a chance a little later.

I summarized in my comment above to taste_is_sweet. Links, hmm ... I've kinda been link-surfing all over and haven't really bothered keeping any of them open. Here is where they talk about SGU's higher-than-SGA budget and how it's going to be gritty and yet fun, too! (Also, you get to see a cast shot of Team Bland. More unappealing cast shots of Team Bland are here. I remind myself that the cast photography for the Stargate shows is always bad and I didn't find the SGA cast very appealing in the premiere either, but STILL.)

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

http://video.syfy.com/shows/universe/behind_the_scenes_10/interviews_3/stargate-universe--comiccon-2009-panel/v1139994

1 hour panel. I haven't watched it yet to see if they cut anything.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Aaaaargh!! O BRAD WRIGHT NO! Why must you make me embarrassed to have ever liked your eps?? (seriously, he wrote some of my favorites in SGA, but everything he's said lately...aargh!)

...Also, hadn't seen the cast pictures you posted in comments above. Wow. White guy central, much? SGA didn't do great on the diversity fronts, but at least they tried...looks like they've stopped trying. Sigh...

[sholio]

AAARGH I KNOW. I guess we'll see, because my initial reaction to SGA, even the premiere, was very unimpressed. But ... it's sort of like, not only did they not learn from all the things they messed up in SGA, but they seem determined to do their mistakes EVEN WORSE this time around! aaaaauuuuggghhhhh... XD

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

Wright has the WORST case of foot-in-mouth I've ever seen. I didn't hear anything new at the panel that I hadn't heard online already.

New/darker/edgyer. bleah. Just excuse to kill characters. You know, that's why I lost interest in BSG! (and lost and heroes) Too Dark, too violent. It was good to begin with, then no hope! So I'd watch, then watch something to cheer myself up. I'm certainely not fanish at all with BSG, and I don't buy anything with it (DVDs/shirts/etc).

I THINK the thing with Carlyle's Rush is that he doesn't WANT to go home. He's running away from his life-dead wife. So, he'll be doing nasty things to make sure they DON'T get home, which will put him in opposition with everyone else. Which yea, it happens in RL - but do I want to see that? no. It doesn't endear the character to the viewing audience.

[sholio]

See, I really can go for that in small doses; I love to be surprised, and some of the things I've really enjoyed have had a dark edge to them. But when the show is hyped that way, and when they just keep pushing the darkness until you don't care about any of the characters -- that's a big turn-off for me. I made it through 3 seasons of Lost before finally getting to the point where I hated ALL the characters and was rooting for them all to die. I was interested in watching BSG at first, but the more I heard of "It's dark! It's edgy! EVERYONE DIES!" the less I wanted to see it. I love watching flawed-but-likable characters struggle through adversity and eventually make it out. Watching unlikable people betray each other and die ... it just isn't my cup of tea, to put it mildly! This is why I don't read a whole lot of "literary" fiction; it's beautifully written, but the people are so dark and ugly that I don't want to know them.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Yes! Heroes too! My husband still watches it--and then he tells me if there are any good Hiro and Ando scenes, and runs them back on the TiVo for me! That's all I watch!

I saw most of BSG. I wish I'd quit sooner, and permanently--I came back for the ending, and ended up tuning in several shows too earlier, before the final episode really ticked me off.

[nonniemous.livejournal.com]

All I can think of every time I see anything about SGU is BATTLESTAR!Gate. BSG did far more than just "inform" this show; it's a direct attempt to rip off BSG's critical appeal and accolades and shove it down the SG universe's throat. Watching the trailer just drove that home. Oh, and gee, look! BSG just finished their run, and we have a NEW! and Improved! (i.e. Darker!Grittier!BSGer!) Stargate show to slot right in.

So not going to work.

Like I told jimandblair, I think they're angling for BSG's fans to make up for any SG fen they lose, but they've missed the points that a) there was probably a lot of crossover already between the two fandoms, and b) BSG, for all its dark and dreary and depressing had awesome characters and coherent story arcs and some damned, damned good writing a lot of the time--not to mention they knew how to write strong women and women leaders. BSG fans will find out quickly that is not the case with the SG writers or stories. Characters exist to serve a) the adolescent wish-fulfillment of the writers and b) the plot of the week and c) female characters are there primarily for point a), the wish-fulfillment of the overgrown, immature males writing the show.

I love your assessment of how this series is being handed to a group of writers whose very weaknesses are what's being hyped about the show.

I honestly hope they crash and burn, much as I would love to see Ming-Na in a regular series again. But she's one of the "temporary" characters anyway.

/bitter old fanhag rant]

[sholio]

Yeah; when I first heard about SGU, my first thought was Voyager, but the more hype came out, the more obvious it became that they were very blatantly ripping off BSG. Except, as usual when people try to cash in on the success of something, it's the superficial aspects that they grabbed onto -- just like Disney thinking that the success of Pixar's movies is due to the new shininess of computer animation and not because they're well-written and full of heart, these guys think the secret to BSG's critical acclaim is darkness, character deaths and skinny young people having sex. Blech. Like you said, what kept people coming back to BSG in spite of its darkness was sharp writing and nuanced, ground-breaking characters.

Seeing how Smallville has run for nine seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if this show can get at least a couple of seasons, if not more, no matter how bad it is. There just isn't much sci-fi on TV right now. And who knows ... maybe they'll make it work? But I'm not holding out vast amounts of optimism ... or really any at all.

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I've just gone and watched some of the promos for SGU (hadn't done so yet) and now I'm trying to figure out, is it gonna be the "edgy, dark...thing" they're clearly advertising it as...or is it for the most part gonna be similar to the other two and they've just chose to market it that way. Cause, I mean, apart from the "sex, sex, look there's kissing and almost nudity" etc. that both previews showed, (which the previous two incarnations for the most part lacked) you could do a very similar preview for the beginning of SGA. I mean, there's some beautiful vids out there that certainly make SGA look a LOT edgier/darker than it is (Last Words by Obfreak comes to mind). So the question really does become, which part are they lying about when they say it's gonna be darker, no wait, it's gonna be the same romp you're used to!

In other news...seriously, why does it look like a remake of SGA?! I mean, group trapped away from home in a place made by the ancients millions of years ago that's falling apart?

To sum up, yeeeeaaah, I'm very, VERY skeptical!!

[sholio]

Well, they can (and did) do "dark" episodes on SGA; it's just that they were pretty nearly unwatchable, and cast Our Heroes in the worst possible light. Imagine a series made up entirely of episodes like "Michael", "Misbegotten" and "Inquisition". Which may be exactly what they're imagining. *weeps*

[sholio]

And yeah, it's totally a remake of SGA, which I think is part of what's so gut-punchy about it -- there's really a strong feeling of "we tried this once and hated it; now we're doing it *right*!" Which is sort of bitter-making for those of us who liked the other way better...

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

Rather than talk about the obvious fact that intelligent writing does not require death to be clever (I'm still sick after watching Torchwood last week. It was so awesome right up until the last fifteen minutes of Episode 4, then I just couldn't muster the energy to really sink into 5.), I'm going to skip past all the chat about SGU and...

Tell you to have a brilliant time at Writercon! I'm very jealous! Please say hi to the folks who (sort of) know who I am (Grey, Tazmy, Astridv, etc), and know that I so wish I could be there. I'm sure it'll be fantastic! And please, please give me the skinny about it when you return. Inquiring minds want to know! :)

[sholio]

Awww, thank you! I wish you were going to be there! I'll be sure and report back. :)

[derry667.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, it kind of puts the bitterness in perspective to think about the many, many other cancellations of shows I've loved over the years, and the different circumstances surrounding each of them. Basically the options are: a) cut down in its prime, b) staggered to a pathetic conclusion several years too late, or c) satisfying conclusion that happened at the right time.

I've been thinking quite a bit about this issue lately - in regard to both SGA and SPN.

I actually think that while SGA could have gone on for a little while longer, in did end in a fairly good place (for me as a fan). They hadn't killed off my very favourite characters (Thank you once again Joss Whedon - several times over). There was enough closure to... well... feel there was closure, but enough left open that there was room for more "one off" forays into that 'verse.

From (mainly) lurking around the SPN fandom, there seems to be a bit of a controversy on whether this 5th season will be the final one. I'm of the camp that thinks it should be because if they tie up an arc which has them defeating Lucifer, I can't see any follow up arc not being anti-climatic. (Sure, there are other non-Judeo-Christian mythologies that they could tackle, but none that would be so easy to convey the menace of to their target audience).

I really don't want a repeat of what happened with the final series of Babylon 5 - where they were apparently told the show was ending and tied up 99% of story threads with the end of The War, but then were given one more season which then meandered around for a year and really took off a lot of the gloss off the climatic penultimate season (and the series as a whole) IMHO.

I think that I've come to the conclusion that even if option c) is rarely achieved, if given the choice between a) and b) I would choose a) every time. Yeah, leave 'em wanting more, I say!

I'm not entirely sure if I feel mainly that way because I'd rather feel the self-righteous "we were robbed of more!" indignation rather than the demeaning "careful what you wish for" drudgery of getting more of a show (that you petitioned to be renewed) and not liking the resulting new season (in my case, the final season of Angel which aside from Ben Edlund's Puppet!Angel episode and some fun snarks from Ghost!Spike, I really would rather they hadn't made).

Or possibly I feel this way for the even more selfish (in a fannish sense) reason that if they ended the shows when they still have potential rather than closure, I can fill the gaps in my head with my own choice of fanfic without the subsequent canon messing up those stories in my head. I'm trying to erase the third whole series of the BBC's latest Robin Hood from my head, but since I tend to be canon-loyal in most fandoms, it's not easy.

As for SGU, I've been trying not to pre-read anything about it. So far, I have 2 things that I'm excited about: 1) Robert Carlyle's involvement and 2) the casting of Ming-Na. Even though I'm not really as conscious of the PoC issue as you (and I'm assuming you mean "People of Colour" and not "Pirates of the Carribean", oh wait, that would be PotC... nevermind), I do like a real mix of colours - "black", "yellow", "red" and "white" - and everything in between! ;-)

[sholio]

and I'm assuming you mean "People of Colour" and not "Pirates of the Carribean"

... oh, but I WISH there were pirates! Everything is better with more pirates. :D (Has there ever been a show about space pirates? Because there should be!)

I do like a real mix of colours - "black", "yellow", "red" and "white" - and everything in between!

Well, yeah -- I guess I just want TV to more closely represent the world I see around me, y'know? It's frustrating to only see the same kind of people over and over, and it frustrates me as a writer as much as a viewer. Why can't their socially inept, slightly overweight viewpoint geek-person be a girl this time? Not that I want less Robert Carlyle necessarily, but why can't his sexy, scruffy world-weary scientist character be played by, say, Naveen Andrews or Avery (Sisko) Brooks? It frustrates me that they still use a set of character archetypes on TV that dates back to the 1950s or earlier.

Anyway, addressing your earlier points, I'm generally much happier with "a" than "b", too. Actually, there is a small selfish part of me that really wishes SGA had been cancelled at the end of season 4 (except for the cliffhanger, but maybe knowing it wasn't coming back, they'd have tied up the episode) -- before the fandom kinda went to hell and left me with more bad memories of the last season than good ones. Like you said, I'd rather have the frustration of knowing there are more good stories ahead than the frustration of watching a show, or its fandom, spiral into a pit of mediocrity and unhappiness.

Overall, it really does put it in perspective to think about how some of my shows have ended -- with my favorite characters dead, with a string of miserably bad episodes, with the plot in such a radically different place that it isn't fun anymore. I don't think SGA was a very good show on any level, but it was a fun show, and it really never pretended to be more.

[naye]

*hugs silly epic pirate manga very tight*

Oh, ugh.

I mean. I think I'm all burned out on Committee-created shows for now? There are exceptions, but they seem to either let me down (and how!), or break my heart.

And with the SG-writers, even the good stuff they churn out feels more accidental than not (it took them five seasons to realize that maybe John had issues?). And when I get optimistic and think that maybe they learn from their mistakes...?

No. No, they very clearly don't. They're just getting more and more blatant about the fact that they cannot write anyone different from themselves. Different gender or ethnicity? BUT HOW?! Maybe if they were aliens...?

I'm also fed up with the whole dark! and! gritty! approach to things. It is not automatically made of epic, even if you do happen to shoot it with a handheld camera. Like you said - the reason BSG was a hit was that they had an excellent grasp of plot and characters. They did stuff we hadn't really seen on TV before.

I look at the things I hear Brad Wright say, and - really, "unique" is not one of the words that come to mind.

Sigh. And yet, I loved most of what he did for the old SG shows.

These guys need the TV equivalent of an editor - someone to smack them upside the head with a rolled-up newspaper and say no. Go fix!

Agh. Maybe Committee-TV can be good if it's a committee of creative people all bringing different talents and POVs to the table, but... yeah, not seeing all that much diversity in the Boys' Club SGU Writing Room.

And I'm not really bitter as much as highly annoyed. Because it's not that difficult. Three simple things that would've made things better: being less distracted by the SHINY of other hits that shall remain nameless; being less dismissive of critiques of the lack of diversity; being more imaginative with existing characters and settings.

Anyway~! There's good TV out there, too! Right now I just feel like I need a break from uneven writers, meddling execs, weird budget constraints and everything else negative in TV land - and manga is the answer, yes. ♥

[sholio]

I fanned exclusively on anime/manga/books for several years after Invisible Man (my last Western fandom) was cancelled in its (badly written) second season. Yesterday I was pretty much ready to throw in the towel and flee screaming from SGA; today I'm feeling more charitable towards the poor thing -- I think it helps a lot that I was re-reading some of my favorite fics in the process of voting in the Fan Awards this afternoon, reminding me why I fell for this show despite all its problems.

But it does make such a huge difference having someone in charge who loves the characters and story, and has a vision for them, and wants them to succeed as something more than just a means to a paycheck! I do think that most TV writers are fond of the characters they write for (as we fans are, too), but it's not the same kind of fierce proprietary love and investment in its future that you get when it's yours.

I think part of the problem is that I've been expecting too much from committee-TV ... you get the rare shows that have a vision and focus to rival one-creator projects, but they're really rare, and I guess it's not fair to dump on SGA for not being able to be that, with a whole room full of writers trying to make it do different things, and studio execs meddling all the time!

I think this is probably a good time to run away and hide in my original fiction, which can never disappoint me. :D

[leenys.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, since I still largely avoid the fandom and Stargate news, I'm still looking forward to seeing it. Online. :)

[iolandasblog.livejournal.com]

I was sad when they cancelled SGA, but it didn't really come out of the blue for me, and after all the crap that happened during its airing I am not so bummed about the cancellation any more. Its a pity that S5 showed too much that they really had no idea where to go from there. I started quite late with SGA, S3 had already aired in the US and they were filming S4, so most of the unpopular decision had been made (sorry if I screw up with the tenses here) and I can life with them. Catching up on three seasons at once made me miss a golden thread and I really was disappointed when JM told on one point that there was no great goal to reach at all. SGA ia all about the characters, but that looses it when you notice that the writers have no clue what to do with 3/4 of them or no means to flesh them out.

Over the time I accepted that they wanted to do a new show, and I really tried to not be preoccupied, but what I saw to this point really doesn't grab my attention and makes me want to see it. Even though I saw the filming of a scene in Vancouver and parts of the set and I am someone who loves, Loves, LOVES behind the scene stuff.

But then there is stuff like Torchwood (yes, even with S3), Doctor Who, Supernatural, Being Human or Firefly (which is now some years old but still shows how it can be done right), which make so much things better concerning character development and it makes me wonder, why they stick with SGU that much to the old team, and don't really get new writers, maybe even female ones, and stop copying other shows. I mean, maybe it turns out great, I'd be happy about that, but its not the feeling I have in my gut. Darker and edgier - I can life with that, but maybe they should think about killing of characters for a reason, and not only to shock the audience or to get rid of an actor.