sholio | Aargh!

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Aargh!

I'm writing a rec for

stargateficrec, and I cannot figure out how to describe this particular thing that I like in fic (at least without taking a few paragraphs ... see below). I've never been able to come up with a good, brief way to describe it, really, and I keep feeling like everything I try to write sounds like it's putting down the romance in this story, which is not my intent.

The thing is, when you fall in love and enter into a sexual relationship, it affects how you deal with other people that you're close to, and how they deal with you. I really, really adore stories that are about that dynamic, not about the whole falling in love, hearts-and-flowers thing. Most of the media that I'm fannish about have strong friendships or family relationships at their heart -- it's what tends to draw me to them, in fact. And I adore stories that deal with how those relationships are affected by one of the main characters falling in love with someone outside the group. Or within the group -- I think the purest form of this kink of mine is "friends + lover from outside", but it can go pretty much any direction; I just like to read about platonic bonds being stressed and tested and, ideally, strengthened or confirmed when they're pushed by one member of the group falling in love. I like to read about people trying to figure out how to be both a good friend and a lover at once, and about friends learning to deal (or not, as the case may be) with no longer being able to monopolize the attention of someone who has other commitments now.

Stories about people meeting and falling in love don't interest me nearly as much as stories about people who are already in love dealing with how their lives, and their relationships with other people, are changed by it. I think it actually works better for me when it's not a couple that's an easy sell for me -- if the writer has to work a little bit at making the couple work, then I can be convinced along with the other characters in the story.

But it's hard to find, because most pairing fic is about the couple falling in love or having their happy-ever-after, not about what's going on around them. On top of that, I really hate jealousy in fic, and while I think a little jealousy is going to be realistic in a situation like that (and I can handle it; I'm a big girl), I really don't enjoy such a story when it's all vitriole and unhappiness.

But how do you say that in a sentence or two? I've been wallowing happily tonight in a story that is pretty much a perfect example of everything I love about that trope done right, but I can't figure out how to describe the trope itself in a brief and lucid way. (The story is this one by

bluflamingo, in case you were wondering.)

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I like the way that

bluflamingo is fairly matter of fact about the existing relationships, especially the John/Cam stories, and yet they're always full of sweet undercurrents about how much the two of them mean to each other in a very long term way. Foundations for one another to stand on their own, and yet not crutches either.

I like first time stories, but I get what you mean about the reality of established relationship, and how the best stories in that genre really get at the emotion, the core of why they're a long term thing.

That's ... not quite what I'm talking about, though? And this is why I'm having a hard time figuring out a way to describe this particular thing, because apparently I didn't do a good job of conveying it in that whole long post above. This isn't meant to be a judgment on what other people like, and there are times when I enjoy a falling-in-love story as much as the next person provided that I like the couple, but in general, I don't orient on romantic relationships the way that most people do. Actually, your "East of the Sun..." would be another example of a story that really hit this kink in me, because part of it was about Rodney falling in love, but a much bigger part of that subplot was about how falling in love with a local woman affected his relationship with John and affected his place in the whole tenuous political dynamic between the two groups. It's not that the relationship is completely extraneous to the story -- you couldn't pull it out without having the whole thing collapse. It's just that it's about a lot more than only the relationship, and the falling-in-love parts weren't the ones that were most important to me.

Though, reflecting on it, I think the matter-of-factness of

bluflamingo's story is a big part of what makes that work so well, in that particular case. John and Cam's relationship is rock-solid, and that's a good strong foundation for exploring how it then affects the way that Rodney and Cam, or Rodney and John, interact.

I loved the sense of warmth in the story, the way that it dealt with affection both sexual and non.

Would it work to phrase it a little differently than "it's not only the affair"? That is, state that the pairing is (whatever you like about the handling); in addition, one aspect you particularly appreciate it is that the author doesn't ignore/also considers the dynamic of that relationship within a larger community/circle of friends?

Then again, I'm not exactly the poster child for concision, and I've seen quite a few recs over there that explain the rec in lengths similar to your post here ....

Yes! I really like that; in fact, I just said something kind of similar in the comment above yours. But I really like the concise way that you summed it up, and that pretty much strikes right to the heart of it -- it's the fact that they don't exist as an island, and the effects of their relationship on their larger social circle is important. (There are a lot of John/Rodney stories out there that don't ignore the team, but they also don't treat the team as having much agency, either -- the general assumption is that you can introduce that change to the dynamic and nobody else who's close to them will have much of a reaction beyond "oh yay, wonderful!", and while there are times, especially in a shorter story, when I really don't need to see that dealt with, I really crave something more complex at times.)

I don´t know how to describe it, either, but I like this kind of story very much and I´ll be really happy about recs in that category - the more the better!

Yay, it's nice to know I'm not alone!

I'm reccing it in the John/Rodney friendship category, actually. There really aren't very many stories like that out there, and I'm not sure how to describe it accurately enough to volunteer it as a category all its own.

I know I'm coming in waaaay late on this (but I actually had a little time to lurk around LJ tonight and came across this) but it hit on a frustation of mine. I, too, enjoy this type of story and it really does defy categorization, which is where my frustration comes in. I've actually written a couple of fics like this *because* I wanted to explore that friendship/family aspect when one person moves on to something new in their lives with someone else. I think most of us have experienced that in life... friends marry or have kids and sometimes the friendships thrive and grow stronger and other times they fizzle out completely. It's why I wrote The Therapeutic Property of Coffee and I stand by it as being a gen John and Rodney friendship fic no matter that there is a het romance (Rodney and Katie) as the backdrop. (Maybe that's the term... the romantic backdrop fic. *G*)

I recently wrote a John/Rodney fic that dealt with Jeannie's POV as she learns about their relationship and I categorized it as slash because of that romantic aspect, although in my mind it's really about Jeannie learning something about her brother she never knew and infering the rest of the story through a conversation with John. Again, the romance is kind of the backdrop for the sibling relationship and the growing family relationship between Jeannie and John, but it's much shorter to write slash for the genre *G*. So, no help here and I'm sure you've already resolved the issue for the rec, but just wanted to say that I find the conversation interesting and timely for me.

Edited 2009-07-08 04:59 (UTC)

Oh, join in anytime! Your "Therapeutic Properties of Coffee" is really one of the best examples of the genre (if it can be considered a genre) that I've ever found. :) I really do love it.

I think one of the reasons why I find that particular slant so interesting is because it's so rarely explored. If you want a happily-ever-after love story, there are a ton of them out there. But these sorts of stories are much harder to come by, and you can't pick them out by pairing alone.

"Romantic backdrop fic" is actually a pretty good way to put it, and I think it nails in just a few words the thing that various stories of this sort have in common.

.
How about something like, "showcases an established relationship that expertly combines love, friendship, and team dynamics"?

*bookmarks story for later reading*
.

Hmm, that does help, but it doesn't really get to the aspect of it that I'm specifically reccing, which is the friendship angle. *thinks some more*

I don't think it can be boiled down to something really short. I think you will need a bit of a longer - 'I like the happenings AROUND the romance' sort of paragraph. Mainly because everyone has different interpretations of things, you'll need to talk about what YOU see in the story that makes the friendship angle larger than the romance angle.

And while I have read that story, it didn't click that way for me that it does for you. Now that you've pointed it out, I can go back and re-read and see the friendship. But when I first read it.. I saw the romance a little to strongly and wasn't as.... uhm... fond of the story.

I think that just talking about it here has helped me get my thoughts in order a bit more. I beat my head against that rec for about an hour last night before I finally gave up and decided to finish it tonight.

It is interesting how different people see different things in a story ... which is what's nice about having different people doing recs (and why I keep poking other people than me to rec John/Rodney friendship; it's nice to get more than one person's viewpoint on what *constitutes* that!). That particular dynamic is a love of mine (friendship interacting and/or conflicting with the relationship) so I happened to notice it.

Hmm...while I don't quite share this kink*, I can understand what you're saying...couldn't you say something like, "I liked how the story showed John & Rodney's friendship in the context of John's relationship with Cam"? Though I don't think a longer explanation would be amiss on that comm, a lot of the recs get lengthy, from what I've seen...you could always cut-tag some of it?

*That's not really true; I do enjoy it in some things. Definitely enjoyed how it was handled in Being Human (and I'm guessing it was a major draw for you, too) and it's one of the things I like about Thomas & Harry's relationship, that Thomas has Justine, and how Harry supports their love. ...Maybe I only like it when vampires are involved XPPP

...tangentially, because I have no shame - I know you haven't read my J/R slash, but my secret santa fic "Out in the Open" might hit this kink for you - it's J/R, but the focus is how the McShep affects the team. [/self-pimping]

For an OTP-er and especially one with the "most important person" orientation that you've said you have, I imagine it'd be sort of an anti kink, actually! But, yeah, that was something I liked about Being Human; I enjoyed the way that the show balanced their canonical love lives with their friendships and general roommate-unit-ness. (If it were SGA or most genre shows, I'd say "teaminess", but I'm still trying to figure out what terminology to use when talking about the roommates in those terms! :D) Though BH is also an example of a show where the idea of canon ships (i.e. Mitchell/Annie) don't really bother me if they decide to go that direction...

In general, though, it's a bit more of a fic kink for me than a canon kink. I think it works for me so well on an emotional level because it is very much an affirmation of the importance of the friendship; like I've said in the past, even though I like some pairings, stories that take a friendship and go the romance route basically read to me as a failure of the friendship to survive. I guess it's similar to the way that some people don't like to read stories in which their OTP breaks up; if you read for romance, it'd be akin to a story in which they got together and then broke up at the end and went back to being friends. Which is a sort of story that *I* would get off on, but I doubt if most 'shippers would consider it a happy ending!

I have not read most of the Secret Santa fics at all -- they came out around the time I stopped reading SGA fic. Now that I've come back around to where I can enjoy those sorts of stories again, I'll have to take a look at yours! Thanks for mentioning it.

I tend to use "nakama" for roommates/teammates/co-workers/whatever...English doesn't have a good word for it!

--ummm and now I'm nattering on about OTPs again, feel free to ignore! ^^;

Hmm, that's the thing...my OTP/MIP kink is not constant or consistent; it's usually there in my ficcing fandoms, often not at all in my Type A fandoms. On fact, one of the reasons I think I don't fic for Type A's is that I don't latch onto a particular relationship, but enjoy all of them, and don't want to see any one relationship elevated above the others. So I liked Doctor/Rose fine, but not so much when it's **DOCTOR/ROSE <3333333** And I like how even-handed Being Human is with all the relationships.

Though it's also confusing because even me having an OTP does not mean that's the only relationship I care about or am interested in (as is obvious in most of my fic; once I settle into an OTP I often find myself writing more about the relationships around it. Hence my Teyla-Rodney friendship obsession...) (Perhaps for me an OTP works like an established relationship (even if it's first-time in the course of the story, it's still a certainty); I like the constancy of it, a foundation for a story to happen around? So when it gets broken up, that distracts me from the rest of the story...or something like that. Hmm...)

And then, right now my favored MIP/OTP is confused anyway, considering that whenever I try to write slash for MUNCLE it seems to end up with Napoleon having sex with women. With Illya too, sometimes, but really I don't care who they're having sex with, as long as they're partners. ...Yup, I continue to be the Worst Slash Fan Ever(tm)! XPPP

But I rather enjoy nattering ...!

And nakama, yes; it works for me! But non-anime fans don't really get the reference, and most of the people on my f'list are English-speaking Western media fans. "Family by choice" is another thing to call it, but it doesn't distill very well into a brief modifier ...

I like the constancy of it, a foundation for a story to happen around? So when it gets broken up, that distracts me from the rest of the story...or something like that. Hmm...)

Interesting thought, and it makes sense!

I don't think I'm nearly as set as you are on constancy in character relationships, though sometimes I kinda wish that I'd had a journal ten years ago, because I do think that my feelings on this have changed somewhat over the years. That is, I used to have a lot more trouble coping with characters getting killed or drifting apart than I do now. On the other hand, it is also possible that this is simply a side effect of not having a really strong "shiny new fandom" thing happen to me in about three years -- there aren't any characters I can think of off the top of my head that I really feel this way about, but that may just be because I'm not currently in the heady flush of fan-crush with anything, and haven't been that way (monogamously, at least) in long enough that I don't really remember what it was like.

Typically, not wanting to see one relationship elevated above the others is how I feel about most of what I fan on; in fact, it really tends to push me away when canon does too much of that (which I think is one reason why I now have some trouble enjoying the McKay/Sheppard relationship, and especially Rodney's character -- both the show and the fandom pushed those characters so hard that it made me resent them for sidelining the rest, and feel guilty for liking them when others' favorites were being short-shafted. Also, hating Hewlett is oddly cathartic; I tried watching "Tao" the other day -- for canon research purposes! really! -- and found his hammy overacting so obnoxious that I couldn't make it very far along ... I am holding out a secret wicked hope that they kill him off in the movie, though given TPTB's boy-crush on him, I suspect that'll happen when pigs fly XD).

Anyway, I'm certainly not one to expect consistency in the way that other people fan on things, since every time I make a sweeping pronouncement about my own fanning, it turns out to have a ton of special cases ...!

Yes that's exactly what I love in stories as well.

That's partly why i love first times so much because they are usually followed by the friends find out scenario. And since many of my favourite pairings are uh "challenging" shall we say, there's a lot of interesting dynamics there to explore.

Not that I know how to say that in a sentence or two. Cause that's what pages and pages of fic is for! :)

Hee! Yes, trying to explain is haaaard. But writing meta about it is fun! :D

Hmm... I think you've already said it in a sentence or two:

Stories about people meeting and falling in love don't interest me nearly as much as stories about people who are already in love dealing with how their lives, and their relationships with other people, are changed by it.

and

I like to read about people trying to figure out how to be both a good friend and a lover at once, and about friends learning to deal (or not, as the case may be) with no longer being able to monopolize the attention of someone who has other commitments now.

Or maybe combine them into one sentence with some word tweaking:

I like to read about people trying to figure out how to be both a good friend and a lover at once; seeing the pair and their friends deal with how their lives, and their relationships, are changed by the romance.

I thought by starting with the "I like" it keeps it from appearing like a negative statement (which I don't think you're making, anyway). You're stating what you enjoy in a story rather than saying what you don't. If that makes sense. (Also, I'm not sure I'm using that semi-colon correctly. I'm always worried about my semi-colon use. *g*)

Dang, that's gooood! *steals* :D I knew my f'list was smarter than me. (Yes, I know technically it started out as my words, but I didn't manage to get anything like that when I was trying to write the rec last night.) Thanks!

(Utterly pedantic grammar-nazi note regarding semicolons: you are right that it's not being used correctly, unless you're going for a sort of authorial stylistic flourish with that thing. To be entirely correct, you'd use it to separate two complete sentences, or to set off more than one clause when the clauses themselves contain commas -- but not just *one* clause full of commas, as you have here. I am an inveterate semicolon abuser myself ...)

Yay! I'm glad that worked for you. :)

And thanks for the grammar-note. I should have stuck with a comma, but I tend to panic about my comma use ("It's too much! Too much!!") and then desperately throw semicolons at the thing. :D

Heh, I was just looking back at what I wrote there and thinking, damn, I hope I didn't annoy or offend you with the grammar stuff. I'm certainly not the Queen of Grammar myself; I keep discovering that I was wrong about various "mistakes" that used to bother me when I'd see them in other people's work, except they were right and I was wrong ...

Oh, no, no you didn't offend me at all! I wanted, and was glad to get, an answer on that. :) It's a weak spot I'm working on, so I love getting grammar information. (Now if only I consistently remembered said info... *g*)

Love that story (and series). I like what you ended up with. It was succinct and nicely done. Personally, I fail at brevity.

I struggle over each rec and agonize over every word. I'm sorry to hear you're feeling the same way but it is a little comforting to know I'm not the only one. I'm not an author (like you) so I really fret over honoring the author and their effort and not turning off a potential reader who might have otherwise read the story.

Coming in late, but just wanted to say I'm so glad you posted about this "friends + lover from outside" phenomenon. While I still enjoy romance-focused fic, I've started to want more from my pairings, for the story to be more than just two people too caught up in each other and everyone else as distant shadows. I find myself really curious how John and Cam's relationship will affect their friendships with SG-1 and Team Sheppard, how it'll affect their careers (Cam will never make general if he stays with John), their families. I want to explore John + Cam's team, and Cam + John's team, not just the romance.

I think it actually works better for me when it's not a couple that's an easy sell for me -- if the writer has to work a little bit at making the couple work, then I can be convinced along with the other characters in the story.

Good point. I think it might be why I'm having such difficulty reading Jack/Daniel and John/Rodney these days. Everyone kind of assumes that of course they're together, it's practically canon, etc, and so nobody works to make it real. It's especially egregious in AUs, I find, because there's no reason this version of Jack would fall in love with Daniel, or why this John (and I include Vegas!John here) is suddenly hot for this version of Rodney. They're barely acquainted, let alone friends, and suddenly they're In Love?

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Aargh!

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