I think my standards have risen...

[sholio]

I'm entertaining myself (still at work, yes) by cruising around publisher and author websites, reading excerpts from books and looking for new things to add to my growing, teetering piles of books. (One of these days, my reading pile will fall on me and I'll die in a tragic book-related accident.)

And I'm finding most of them practically unreadable. It's the prose, mainly -- the premise of the books sounds good, but the writing is clunky and plain and spells out everything in excrutiating detail. If these published novels were fanfics, I would have abandoned them in the first few paragraphs. The only thing that's enabling me to slog through some of these is mentally editing the prose into a sleeker, trimmer shape. (Also, the first one I ran into misspelled "tchotchke" in the first few paragraphs. I had to do a little Googling to remember how, exactly, it is spelled, but I knew it was wrong.)

This has been more and more of a problem for me over the last few years. I start reading books and have trouble fighting my way through the first few chapters. Once I get into the characters, I'm all right, but probably half the books I've started in the last couple of years have lost me in the beginning (temporarily or permanently) because of the quality of writing.

Hypothesis one: Maybe I'm just getting pickier. I've been doing a lot more writing lately and becoming more adept at ferreting out good from bad writing. And I don't think it's just my imagination that there are a lot of really, really skillful writers in SGA fandom. I've been reading fanfic for a long time, and I know that you always find a few gems even in the most barren fannish wastelands, but I've been completely blown away by the quality of the fic in this fandom. Being immersed in good writing all day long has to have had an effect.

Hypothesis two: I've simply been unlucky enough to run into a string of bad books. Or whole genres of bad books. What I'm poking at tonight is urban fantasy, a genre in which, despite my liking for it, I've always had a great deal of difficulty finding good books. Is this just me, or do other people experience this as well? I don't know if it's because it's mostly new/young writers, or lower editorial standards, or if it's more subjective than that -- something to do with the style that doesn't appeal to me, even though I love the concepts. In fact ...

Hypothesis three: It's not the quality of the writing, it's the style. Over the last couple of years, my fanfic-to-books ratio has been heavily skewed in the fanfic direction. Plus, the mix of fic is different: though it's definitely not the majority of my fanfic input, I've been reading more slash than was ever true of me before, and I don't think it's my imagination that slash has its own distinctive aesthetic. But I wonder if it goes beyond that -- if fanfic in general has a particular style, just like science fiction, on the whole, has a different style from romance. And maybe I've developed a disconnect between what I read, and thus what I expect to see on the page, and what publishing houses actually publish.

Or maybe it's simpler than that. The thing that's been bugging me most about a lot of published books I've read lately is how much they spell out for the reader: a character is introduced and the writer has to tell you about her. She travels to a new place -- cue infodump. I wonder if part of the problem is that I've been spoiled by the fact that in fanfic, the audience and the reader have a built-in frame of reference. It's like picking up the third or fourth book of a series -- the author doesn't have to tell you all about the characters and the world, but can simply immerse you in it without having to tell you about it. Once I get past the infodumps, I'm usually a lot better. Is it just that reading fanfic, where you start out on chapter 200 by default, has made infodumps jump off the page in a way that they never did before? Or, even more subjectively, is it that after reading so much fanfic, I subconsciously expect to start out with the same deep emotional connection to the characters that you have in fanfic, and get frustrated when it's not there, without realizing where the frustration is coming from?

I know it's not just that, because I've read a few books lately that have sucked me in from the very first page. (Octavia Butler's "Kindred" was one of those -- I really wish that "Parable of the Sower" hadn't been the first book of hers that I ever picked up, because it unjustifiably scared me off Butler for years.) But ... it seems like a book has to be much better than ever before, to keep me sticking with it.

Thoughts?

Comments

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of books I read in high school and college that I know I can't read now. Authors that I loved and can never read again because I just know they are bad. I wouldn't enjoy them and it would just ruin my memories.

I think for me it's that in writing myself, and even more so in starting to beta for people and really taking a hard look at the writing, I became unable to ignore bad writing for the sake of an interesting story.

It's kind of like before I was able to do the magic eye thing and unfocus from the actual written words and just see through to the story, but now I can't. If the writing is too bad, it just ruins it for me no matter how interesting the story may be.

[sholio]

I've had the childhood-book OUCH experience, too. It's just interesting to me to have it hitting me this hard, because I wouldn't normally ascribe it to writing more -- I've always written a lot, ever since grade school. I'm starting to think, though, especially looking back on my earlier projects from 5-10 years ago, that I've taken a quantum leap forward as far as actual writing skill, and I suppose it's not surprising that my reading experience reflects that. I know what you mean about the magic-eye thing -- I'm able to turn that off for some aspects of the source text, in some contexts, but not others.

[ceitie.livejournal.com]

I have noticed that since I began reading large amounts of fanfiction, especially when it's mostly in just one fandom, I find it more difficult to connect to and care about characters in published fiction books. I agree that it's got something to do with the lack of that automatic emotional connection that comes with reading a fic - it's like the difference between having a long, deeply personal conversation with someone you just met, versus having one with an old friend.

[sholio]

It's so fascinating because I had really never looked at it that way before; I've always been a fairly picky reader, and I did notice that sometimes I'd pick up a book I used to enjoy and notice that I no longer enjoyed it, which I always ascribed to my tastes and/or ability to recognize bad writing changing as I grow older. But it's SO pronounced lately that it made me start casting around looking for other explanations, because I've never had it happen to me this badly before. And I really do think that not having a built-in connection to the characters is part of it.

Re: i've thought about this a lot, as well

[sholio]

You know, it's interesting because I agree with you even though I know (because I write original fic as well) that I'm not any less attached to my original characters -- in fact, in some ways I'm a lot more attached to them. But in fanfic, that love is ... more surface-textual, I guess? Fanfic, at least most fanfic, is pretty much a straight shot to the emotions, where original fiction is -- okay, this sounds totally crazy to say, but it's hampered by its attempts to tell a good story. Which might not be the best way to put it, because it isn't that stories in fanfic aren't good, but at heart, most of them are focused on the same thing: moving the reader's emotions, usually in a positive way. Original fiction is trying to do a lot of things at once -- build a world, create sympathetic characters, develop theme and a well-constructed plot; it's trying to move us emotionally as well, but that is very nearly fanfic's raison d'etre. I definitely notice that when I switch back and forth between writing fanfic and original fic, I'm a lot more willing to go "all the way" emotionally in fanfic, whereas in original fic I'll pull back and let my own emotional kinks get subordinated to the integrity of the plot.

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

Not much in the way of thought, but a huge sigh of relief that I'm not alone. I've been worrying that I'd lost my ability to stick with novel length fiction, that the internet had given me ADD (because I do flip between four or five different tabs and intersperse writing with reading and keeping up with email and LJ and the news all at same time).

The thing about urban fantasy is that all of it is the same. The first time I read some, I was in love, but the twentieth time it's just like reading a Louis L'Amour western - it doesn't matter which one it is, because only the names change.

I read everything too, westerns, mysteries, police procedural, military, history and historical, romance, science fiction, fantasy, and I was starting to think it was me. So much of it is very middle of the road at best. I can't remember the last book that amazed and impressed and engaged and freaked me out. (I did just finish Companion to Wolves and liked it a lot, but I also thought, it was like original slash - closer to the fanfiction aesthetic than most published works.)

But I had more reason to reply than just agreeing.

a character is introduced and the writer has to tell you about her. She travels to a new place -- cue infodump.

This triggered the memory of reading an article on writing a long time ago (I don't remember the author, it might have been Gregory McDonald) pointing out that what the author needs to describe for the reader has changed with time. When Dickens wrote about London, many people reading hadn't ever, nor would ever, see a big city, so he had to describe from the cobblestones up. But film changed that - even people who will never get there know what Big Ben looks like. The writer doesn't need to describe every detail. Doing so is just boring.

So I think this is why the info dumps are so irritating. A lot of published writers and their editors haven't caught up to what fanfic has already grasped - sometimes you really don't need those first 200 pages, (which are too often just a dressed up version of the opening to Nifty porn - I'm Bob, I'm 23, blond, blue eyed, buff and with a nine inch wanger. We don't care - that isn't character.) even with original fic. As readers, we've already internalized most of the character establishing tropes the writers are using and don't need it. Maybe?

This sort of comes back to an idea I had a while back that some books you have to read at certain points in your life or they just won't be that impressive, because if you read them after you've already absorbed those life lessons and epiphanies yourself, it's just boring.

And a lot of published books are boring me.

And now, I think I'll go reread The Keeper of the Bees, because old doesn't mean boring and I'll never get tired of when the narrator gets called to the hospital because the woman he married thinking he was dying is having a baby, only to find out he never saw this woman before, but takes the baby anyway.

[sholio]

I've been worrying that I'd lost my ability to stick with novel length fiction, that the internet had given me ADD

I had that exact same concern, because I've been reading fewer novels lately and finding it a lot harder to get through them. It freaks me out to think that I might have inadvertently impaired my ability to concentrate by getting so used to reading information in the Internet's bite-sized chunks. Which I suppose explains why I'm looking for alternate explanations that don't involve using the Internet to damage my poor brain! *g*

I think you have an excellent point about the sameness of fiction in a particular genre, though I don't think it's just that with urban fantasy -- I'm simply having a hard time finding books in the genre that aren't appallingly poorly written. I think other commenters have a good point that there is a lot of dreck in the genre right now because it's "hot" and new writers are pouring in. Obviously, Sturgeon's Law is always going to apply, but I suspect that there are some areas of the publishing business where the simple mechanics of the writing/editing/publishing process are going to tilt the dreck-to-quality ratio somewhat. (At one point in my life I'd looked into writing Harlequin romances as a simple moneymaker. Apparently the average pulp-romance writer cranks out a book every six weeks, and the publishing houses provide simple a-b-c plot templates for their various imprints. You are simply not going to get a whole lot of quality fiction under those circumstances!)

A lot of published writers and their editors haven't caught up to what fanfic has already grasped - sometimes you really don't need those first 200 pages... We don't care - that isn't character.) even with original fic. As readers, we've already internalized most of the character establishing tropes the writers are using and don't need it. Maybe?

Absolutely fantastic point -- and I think, actually, that I'm going to open a word processing window right now and start keeping a running list of the thinkiest points from this discussion, because I think you're really onto something here. (And I'm giggling at your example!)

But I almost wonder if it's going in the other direction -- if we're currently on the upswing of a description boom, fueled by visual media like movies and TV. This isn't necessarily what readers want, but it's what writers, who grew up on visual media, are trying to supply them -- they're over-describing because they want to give the reader the experience of watching a movie in their heads. So every little thing has to be described in minute detail. I've noticed for a long time that SF and fantasy novels have exhibited a lot of "bloat" over the decades -- from the trim-and-slim SF of the 50s/60s to the spider-killing speculative fiction of today. And an awful lot of the verbage in those 500-page novels could easily be whacked out, leaving the book the better for it.

On the other hand, my last original story came back from my beta-reader this summer with question marks all over the place -- she felt that I was under-describing, that I hadn't given her enough description to picture the world in her head or even, in some places, to figure out what was going on. Due to my hatred of infodumps, I'd been deliberately trying to avoid them, but obviously I went overboard, holding too much back.

This sort of comes back to an idea I had a while back that some books you have to read at certain points in your life or they just won't be that impressive, because if you read them after you've already absorbed those life lessons and epiphanies yourself, it's just boring.

Oh, absolutely; I totally agree. I've actually read a few books lately that made me think, "Damn, I wish I'd read this when I was 15" -- because it would absolutely have been what I was looking for at that age, but so completely isn't what I'm looking for now. It's always a delight to find that a book I loved as a teenager is still relevant to me now (I went through a Zelazny revival recently, and was pleased to find that this was the case) but there are also quite a few books that I am sure I wouldn't like if I discovered them for the first time today.

[amalthia]

I've experienced what you're going through but I'm also not sure if fan fiction is easier to jump into because of instant connection to characters, or if I've been completely spoiled by SPN and SGA (and every other fandom that has a ton of awesome stories) :)

I have read fan fiction outside my fandoms, and for shows I've never seen and still got caught up in the story so I think there is more going on for fandom than just the instant connection to the characters in the show.

Though I do think publishing standards have fallen because I've read books from the 80s that are 100X more exciting from the get go and have a more complex language structure with more imagery...but maybe I just hit a span of the really good books from that decade?

I tend to follow authors in published books, so I have my list like Robin Hobb, Lois Bujold McMasters, Joan D Vinge, Tanya Huff (who okay hasn't won awards but her stories are entertaining to read) Tad Williams...

I noticed with the vampire/romance books writing is rather plain and bare bones in terms of imagery and kind of cliche in many ways. But that's the only genre I've attempted in recent memory. Every time I peek my head out of fandom into published books and try something that costs money to read, I've been kind of disappointed. With a few exceptions like The Time Traveler's Wife and Eric Flint's 1632 series (which to be honest I'm reading more for plot concept than anything else).

I'm interested to see what other people have come up with. I've kind of came to the conclusion that I can find better written/more variety stories in fandom than I could out of a bookstore.

[sholio]

I've experienced what you're going through but I'm also not sure if fan fiction is easier to jump into because of instant connection to characters, or if I've been completely spoiled by SPN and SGA (and every other fandom that has a ton of awesome stories) ... I have read fan fiction outside my fandoms, and for shows I've never seen and still got caught up in the story so I think there is more going on for fandom than just the instant connection to the characters in the show.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to suss out. At least some of it does come down to writing quality. I've read fic in unfamiliar fandoms that did draw me in immediately (actually, that's how I got into SGA!), but I've also read fic that was technically well-written, where I could tell that I would probably like it if I were already engaged with the characters, but since I wasn't, it didn't draw me in.

The more I think about it, the more I think there are a lot of things going on -- style, writing quality, connection with the characters ... I wonder if switching to published fiction from fanfic is kind of like switching between two dissimilar genres; for example, reading nothing but mysteries and then suddenly switching to fantasy. The books are not written the same way!

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

I think there are a few things. For me, at least, my affection for particular original fic genre tends to behave like my interest in fandoms. At first, everything is fresh and you're in love with some of the trappings so it's easy to love everything you read. But then I at least start to get bored with the same tropes that get pulled out again and again. It's not that the newer works are less well written than the stuff I loved that I read six months ago. It's just that I read that story or met those characters a hundred times already and if you're not bringing anything new to the story, my attention is going to focus on the shallowness of characterization or thinness of plot or what have you.

Secondly, if we're focusing on fanfic vs. pro, fanfic is an incredibly niche market. Which I think you alluded to in several of your points. Fanfic I think does an incredibly good job of catering to the various kinks of its audience. Which is great and I think somewhat more satisfying if you share those kinks, but no so much if you don't. I think genre books can't afford to cater to the very specific tastes of a few thousand people like fanfic can.

I do agree with the emotional intimacy difference. Fanfic deals with characters we're already passionate about. That's why it's there. Which can hook you into the story much faster. OTOH, I think though if you don't agree with the broad scale strokes of characterization in a fandom, though, it can leave you on the outside in ways original fic isn't as guilty of. And I also think that shared character view can lead to blander characterization on the page. The readers are bringing so much of their own vision to the page that sometimes a generic approach to characterization just gets in the way of readers preconceived notions less and lets readers see what they want to see.

I think too fanfic is just shorter and that can help. You get your emotional hit with much less investment and it's pretty easy to tell if the writer has some stylistic or characterization point that drives you batty on the first page. It takes less time to find something worth investing your time in with fanfic. I think it just makes your satisfaction ratio higher.

In the end, though, I find fanfic to be pretty middle of the road. It is certainly at its best more to my taste than a great deal of published fic. But it's very, very rare that I get as much enjoyment out of fanfic as a really good original novel. The same sameness that makes the characters and the world immediate in fanfic is precisely what keeps so much of it from being truly great in my mind.

[sholio]

Lots of good points here.

In the end, though, I find fanfic to be pretty middle of the road. It is certainly at its best more to my taste than a great deal of published fic. But it's very, very rare that I get as much enjoyment out of fanfic as a really good original novel. The same sameness that makes the characters and the world immediate in fanfic is precisely what keeps so much of it from being truly great in my mind.

Oh yes, absolutely. I think to some extent, this relates to the earlier point in your comment about fanfic writing to its audience's kinks. I'm not sure if I agree that published fiction can't/shouldn't (actually, I think there are entire genres of published pulp fiction -- e.g. sword-and-sorcery, or Harlequin romances -- that are basically writing to the audience's kinks) but you don't generally end up with great, earthshaking literature that way. What makes fanfic so successful is also exactly what keeps it from succeeding on a higher level. There are a very tiny handful of fanfics that I think I might recommend to a non-fanfic reader, that stand up as actual literature. But only a tiny, tiny handful.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

I think pickiness is inevitable. I was picky before fanfic, because I'd stumbled onto books so well written - mechanically and aesthetically (sp? ? Me tired, no spell right) - that pull me in from the start and hold me to the end, that it becomes all I want. I kind of blame Ursula K Leguinn and Barabara Hambly for that ;). You end up wanting it all - great writing, great characters, etc - but it's hard stuff to find among the cliches and crap that really shouldn't have been published.

And I also think writing and editing for others has a lot to do with it as well, because I'm contantly finding myself correcting what I read as well as rewriting it in my head. Plus, for me at least, I find myself desiring more stories of the kind that are like what I write, including in the same style that I write. Not the exact style, of course, but close if possible. Or better than what I write. Because by reading something like or better than what I write, it helps with my own writing.

For me, though, except for fanfic's availability, I don't really blame fanfcition for reading less original work. However, I do blame fanfic for making original fic harder to write. Fanfiction I like to compare to a starter kit, in which you have everything you need - characters, setting, etc - and all you need is the plot. You don't have to pay as much attention to what you're writing, I guess you could say, because someone else has already fleshed out the characters for you, you just need to take things a step further. With original fic, it's all up to you, and somtimes that can be daunting.

[sholio]

Fanfiction I like to compare to a starter kit, in which you have everything you need - characters, setting, etc - and all you need is the plot. You don't have to pay as much attention to what you're writing, I guess you could say, because someone else has already fleshed out the characters for you, you just need to take things a step further. With original fic, it's all up to you, and somtimes that can be daunting.

Oh, I absolutely agree with this! It's certainly not that fanfic isn't work, but I think in some ways that writing a lot of fanfic makes it harder to make your brain work on the parts of original fic that are different -- it softens up the character-creation, world-creation parts of the brain, maybe. *g*

And I definitely second the part about good writing making one write better. That is SO true. And I find it works the other way too -- if I'm reading a lot of clunky writing, my own writing suffers for it.

[flingslass.livejournal.com]

I have trouble looking at books at the moment because there's too much chicklit out there. It's BORRRRRRING!!!

[sholio]

*laughs* You know, a lot of fanfic is basically chicklit too ...

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

I'm another on the me too wagon.

It's likely a combination of all your hypotheses (except 2, as my 'streak' has been going on for years now, so I've given up on that as a reason). But I have a couple more pet theories to add to your list:

1) There are no real editors any more. Publishing has become very bottom line focused, and that means doing away with frivolous unnecessary things, like making a book as good as it can be. Near enough saves a lot of time and increases flow-through. So, in general, ms are accepted if they are publication ready and fit the line, even if they are fairly ordinary. They get a quick line edit, and out the door they go. There is no editor making substantive suggestions about plot problems (especially in the notoriously tricky final third), or significant periods of re-write time. I am basing this on anecdotes by friends who are in publishing or writers currently at the lower end of the midlist.

When I re-read Jane Austen or many of the other classics, I remember that not all writers use Basil Exposition to forward their character development. We are just in a lazy age; and it's not because of word processors as some like to claim. It's because we're cheap.

Ironically, I think fanfic often gets better editing than profic, because of our beta culture, and because we don't have the same kind of fianancial/time pressures.

2) Our stories are boring, because people are less eccentric and have fewer real adventures than they used to. We live sedentary, computer-based lives in which all our experiences of things are mediated. As a result, our stories are all copies of copies, full of cliches and tired descriptions. My mum and dad have these amazing stories of childhoods in which people were just plain weird in a way we just don't get now. There were dunny men and unlocked doors and kids didn't always have shoes, and it was normal. Now we don't let kids walk to school by themselves. We pay thousands of dollars for the stories of people who survive plane crashes on the side of ice-covered mountains, because it's the most exciting thing that happens anymore.

3) Misogyny. I probably just didn't see it when I was younger. But about 80% of all the books I look at turn me off within 30 pages (usually much, much sooner) because of the way the women are treated and represented. I can't bear it. And the rate is actually higher in the genres, which is my preferred reading.

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

Oh, and 4) Fanfic is written, much of the time, by women for women. And original fic? Just isn't.

[naye]

I think it's a combination of several of the factors you mentioned above. If you're looking at urban fantasy - yeah, I've gotten the impression that editors are letting things through simply because there's a high demand on the genre right now, and they know they'll get books sold even if they're not holding the same standard as a rejected fantasy novel.

At the same time, there is a huge difference between reading fic, and reading novels. There might be a different aesthetics to it - I haven't really thought about it enough to be able to tell. But even without having given the subject much thought on the subject, I know that there is a huge difference between novels in general, and fic, namely characters.

You're absolutely right about the info dump thing in books - I hadn't thought of that, but it's true! At the same time, with non-fic authors, you get people who write stories because they have an interesting setting, or a central mystery that works, or because they want to tell this particular story. In fanfic, I'm sure you find the same kind of motivation - but fanfic never works unless it's right for the characters. And they're characters you already know and like, or you wouldn't be reading about them!

I'm heading out in a few minutes, so I'll just summarize my general thoughts in this instant reaction: fanfic = friends, novels = strangers. With the former, you know you're going to have a good time (unless they somehow end up under the influence of something that causes them to stagger about acting horribly unlike themselves), but with strangers, it takes a while to warm up, and you never know - you might end up spending all that time with a complete bastard, or a total bore!

[sholio]

At the same time, with non-fic authors, you get people who write stories because they have an interesting setting, or a central mystery that works, or because they want to tell this particular story. In fanfic, I'm sure you find the same kind of motivation - but fanfic never works unless it's right for the characters. And they're characters you already know and like, or you wouldn't be reading about them!

Ooh, that's a good point!

One of the things I've been thinking about, as I work my way along answering comments, is how fanfic is not just written to service the characters, but the reader's emotions as well. Whereas original fic is at least as heavily focused on the needs of the story, not so much stroking the reader's id or even satisfying the writer or reader's love of the characters. I'm finding this a very difficult concept to explain *g* -- it makes a lot of sense in my head, but comes out all wrong when I try to express it! But in switching back and forth between original and fanfic, I find that I'm a lot more inclined to restrain myself from writing some of my more id-scratching types of scenes in original fic. Or I'll cut out a scene/character/subplot that I really loved because it doesn't have to be in there, or even runs counter to the overall theme of the story -- while in fanfic, those scenes are not only more okay to keep in there, but are often the story's whole reason for existing!

As noted in one of the above comments that I just wrote, I think this partly explains why fanfic, as good as it can be, rarely achieves the same heights as the truly fantastic novels. There's a lot of good fanfic, and some fanfic that succeeds as brilliant fanfic, but not a lot of fanfic that stands on its own as a really brilliant novel.

fanfic = friends, novels = strangers.

Hee! I really like this. :D And often, all I want from an evening's reading experience is to curl up with a good friend. ♥ (This probably explains why I re-read favorite books so often, too.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I've had the same problem with reading books - and I think it is that fanfic is spoiling me, not just by giving me what I want, but also because it does skip the info-dumps and character-establishment that's often so tedious to plow through. Also because I used to read popcorn fantasy, wading through huge long boring tracts to read gems of h/c and such; now I can get a steady supply of h/c, and have less patience for the rest. A book can't just have a couple good scenes, it has to be good all the way through...

That was one think I really appreciated about Locke Lamora - there were info-dumps, but the city was genuinely interesting and the historical accounts were usually funny so entertaining reads; and the character histories unravel slowly. The opening of the first book, with its jumping flashbacks, drew me in immediately, with that "what the heck is going on?" feeling.

Ah, I haven't read any Butler for years, but I loved Wild Seed lots & lots & lots.

[sholio]

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that a lot of my dissatisfaction with published fiction comes from that subconscious yearning for an immediate connection with the characters. And most of the books I've enjoyed lately (Well Witched, Kindred, House of the Scorpion) have drawn me into the main character's life and made me love him/her almost from the very first page. And others haven't; I was very frustrated by Tobias Buckell's Crystal Rain on that score, because it's a book that I wanted very badly to like -- the world-building is gorgeous, and it's so rare to see steampunk that's not built on a Victorian cultural base. But it took probably half the book to get to the point where I liked any of the characters. It was only the world-building that made me stick with it that far, and though I did eventually come to really like a couple of characters, it's not a keeper for me -- which is sad, because I adored the world and I think it could have been an instant favorite if the characters had engaged me better.

The Locke Lamora books definitely soared on world-building and characterization. I'm starting to realize lately how rare a combination that really is.

[springwoof.livejournal.com]

nothing in particular to add to your main discussion, but jumping in on a small detail. Loved Butler's "Kindred"! so awesome! She's written other cool stuff as well, but I think Kindred was her best...

[sholio]

I loved it! Definitely one of my favorites of the books I've read this year.

[roga.livejournal.com]

Or, even more subjectively, is it that after reading so much fanfic, I subconsciously expect to start out with the same deep emotional connection to the characters that you have in fanfic, and get frustrated when it's not there, without realizing where the frustration is coming from?

That - and the rest of that paragraph - pretty much nails it. It's exactly how I've been feeling recently, and while I couldn't quite figure out for myself what it was that made it more difficult for me to read fiction these days, you've described it perfectly.

[sholio]

It's so nice to know it's not just me! From the response I'm getting to this post, a lot of us are having similar problems. It's taken me a very long time to start looking around and wondering if there was more to it than simply growing more picky/sophisticated as I write more and look at fiction more analytically, though. And I'm still not sure how much of it really does come down to this ... but I'd say definitely more than I expected.

[rydra_wong]

*ponders*

Hrm. With urban fantasy in particular -- I've been noticing a lot of it in the bookshops lately that seems very generic: heroine with powers in modern American city fighting against supernatural forces while having romantic entanglements with them, very sub-Buffy. I suspect that publishers have spotted a niche, and there may be a fair amount of identikit work being produced to fit it.

Another factor is that the more I write, the more I've found myself analysing what I read; I suspect that I'm more sensitive to things like clumsy info-dumping than I was before.

But I do read published sf/f pretty heavily, and always have, and there are still a lot of books that hit the spot for me and which I will rec at the drop of a hat (*waits hopefully for any dropped hats*).

So I doubt that fanfic's altering my aesthetic responses as a whole. Just making me more cranky, maybe *g*.

[sholio]

I know that I'm a lot pickier than I used to be, for sure, and I do think a lot of that comes down to being more analytical about what I read, as my writing skills improve. But it wasn't until recently that I started wondering if there might actually be more to it than that -- if fanfic has particular characteristics as a genre that set it aside from (most) published fiction, characteristics that I'm subconsciously looking for when I open up a pro novel. Of course, this is totally a YMMV thing ...

And, yeah ... I agree, I do think urban fantasy is definitely suffering from its "hot and flying off the shelf!" status right now, and there's a lot of flat, formulaic work being produced to fill that niche.

[ex-nonniemou154.livejournal.com]

Fanfic, I think, is more participatory, and hits something within us that wants long-term commitments from our stories and characters. Not to mention that fanfic pulls in from a more fully "sensual" experience, because we have audio and visual impressions to go with the words on the page.

I know that I have a hard time getting into books lately because there just doesn't seem to be enough of the story there. I know that I'm going to give time and energy to these characters, and then they're going to be gone and there are no "further adventures of..." Unless it's a series, and honestly, I think the current demand for series books on the market reflects the appeal of fanfic, that same continuity and carrying over of our emotional investment in these worlds and characters. One reason I love the Kushiel's series so much is that for me, it has that depth and resonance that's reminiscent of a fanfic universe.

There is definitely an aesthetic about a lot of slash fanfic, and it's one that I find annoying as all get out most of the time. When it works, it's amazingly gorgeous. But a lot of the time I find the holes in the airy writing to be too much to hold the fabric of the story together for me. But I do know that a lot of the most literary writing in any fandom seems to wind up in the slash files.

And lastly, I do think that there's a tendency these days to dumb down one's books for the audience. It's aggravating and frustrating, and I put a lot of books aside for that. Then again, I'm not ever going to be a huge fan of "modern" fiction, even if that seems to be what I wind up writing. But I've seen it in science fiction and fantasy, too. But there are gems out there, if we keep digging. Nothing ever replaces the thrill of the freedom to get up away from my computer and curl up on the couch with a good book, fanfic or not.

I'm trying to read more books, or at least be more picky about those fanfics in which I do invest my time. But I'm not always successful.

[sheron]

>I know that I'm going to give time and energy to these characters, and then they're going to be gone and there are no "further adventures of..."

You hit it right on the nail here. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to get emotionally involved because it's going to end in a few days anyway. Same with movies, I find that I just can't get as excited about a movie because I know I'm only with these characters for two hours and that's it. Longe term commitment to the series is so much more satisfying, imho.

[kirei-seimei.livejournal.com]

*jumps on the me-too wagon* I find info dumping is like name dropping... a little can be impressive, but too much just bothers your readers/listeners.

I recently did a "random things about me" meme, and mentioned that although I love reading, I haven't read a "proper" SF book in about two years. Some fantasy, yeah; but no SF. It's frustrating as hell, because I love SF as a genre, but nothing seemed to grab me when I'd wander into a bookstore. I tend to get most of my SF from TV and film (and accompanying fanfic, when I have a computer and time on my side) now... not so useful when I'm at work and can only use my own "dead tree" materials ^_^

Info dump is a problem that's been around for awhile in my books... I think the most frustrating thing about it is when it appears to be more about the author showing off their research than it is about world-building for the reader. I've been re-reading The Blue Nowhere by Jeffrey Deaver, and the man is a slave to the info dump in that book especially... I didn't find it such a big problem in The Bone Collector, though. Slipping through to the crime/mystery genre (which has become my go-to genre in lieu of SF), I find Michael Connolly a good read - descriptive and informative about his character's interactions in L.A., but not (IMO) overly info dumping; as are Ian Rankin's "Rebus" novels.

I think fanfic usually has a huge head-start in the reader-character connection department, and as readers, we also have a pretty clear concept of the likely environments our characters will end up in, which does away with the need for info dumps with the exception of story-specific plot or world creation (i.e. the team meeting a new society we haven't seen in the series yet). ITA that (responsible) fanfic (if I can call it that) has a clear beta culture, and that stories are generally recced on the quality of the individual story, while published fic often relies on publicity machines (especially those based around the cult of an author) to inspire readers to buy books "sight unseen".

Last SF book I really read was probably better classed as YA SF - one of Elizabeth Moon's. That I have such trouble finding SF novels to enjoy really depresses me sometimes!

[sholio]

It's frustrating as hell, because I love SF as a genre, but nothing seemed to grab me when I'd wander into a bookstore.

Oh, man, do I ever have this problem. *g* I think one of the reasons that I've been slogging through so much utterly terrible urban fantasy lately is because I love the idea of it, but in actual practice, I'm just not finding anything good. Ditto for steampunk -- awesome idea, lots of utterly forgettable attempts.

Last SF book I really read was probably better classed as YA SF - one of Elizabeth Moon's. That I have such trouble finding SF novels to enjoy really depresses me sometimes!

I tend to split my reading between adult books and YA, and I'm starting to think that writers of "adult" fiction could really learn a lot from good YA authors like Nancy Farmer or Diana Wynne Jones. YA writers know that their audience is fickle and needs to be immediately given compelling characters and an interesting, twisty plot; if they let the action ease for just a minute, their audience wanders off. The SF of the 60s and 70s (Heinlein, Zelazny, etc) kept this in mind, too. There's no reason why an adult audience should be expected to slog through 200 pages of nothing happening to get to the good stuff. I'd like to see more fiction that marries adult themes with the YA writing aesthetic.

[silivren-tinu.livejournal.com]

If these published novels were fanfics, I would have abandoned them in the first few paragraphs.
I know that problem. I've always been a bookworm, but since I've discovered fanfiction I rarely read books anymore. I'm not entirely sure about the reasons, but each of your hypotheses has something to be said for it. The likeliest reason, in my case, is that the fanfiction I'm reading is of a very high quality (the authors are often better than the authors of many books I know) and matches my taste exactly (something I, once again, can't say about most books I'm reading). Besides, there's also the wonderful opportunity to be in contact with the author and get to know them, and even influence her/him in some way (its nice to threaten people when they leave nasty cliffhangers, and I don't mind being threatened in turn *g*).

[sholio]

Ooh, yeah, the openness and social interaction of the fanfic world is also a big draw! I notice that a lot of writers are online these days, and do interact with their fanbase online, but it's not quite the same ...

I'm honestly stunned at some of what gets published. I just waded through a book this morning ("Dead to Me" by Anton Strout) that was FULL of things that no reputable beta would let through -- the characters were likable and the basic world concept was pretty cool, but it was full of painful sentence constructions, utter plot illogic that depended on the characters being total idiots, with a side order of vague offense (like the totally pointless murder of the main character's ex-girlfriend). It could have been a pretty good book with a very hard edit, but obviously it didn't get it.

[dossier.livejournal.com]

I agree, and I don't believe that it is your imagination; I discovered that quite a lot of fiction, genre or not is just not that great. I've kind of felt that way about fantasy for about 20 years, but now it's endemic. I have a hard time making myself pick up and pay for pro-fiction, because I get better for free.

[sholio]

Ha. Yeah. Nice to know it's not just me. And there are good writers out there ... but not very many of them!

[novembersga.livejournal.com]

I'm not a writer, but I love to read. There are good stories or books out there that I just can't stick with because I just don't like the style. Not that there's anything wrong with it, just some styles of writing turn me off.

I know one thing for sure. I am spoiled rotten by fan-fiction. I get exactly what I'm craving most of the time. Fan-fiction for me is like what 'On-demand' is for tv.

It's not your imagination either. There are a ton of excellent writers in this fandom which makes me oh-so-happy! You, for one, have written some of my most favorite, squee-worthy, 'why didn't they make this an episode' SGA fics.

It's been awhile since I took the time to read original fiction. I never thought about it before, but I've had problems at times wading into a book. Once things start moving it gets better.....sometimes. I guess it does have alot to do with the fact that in original fiction you have to be introduced to the characters and surroundings. The writer has to try to create a connection for you with the characters. With fanfiction, the world and the characters are already there. We have established 'relationships with these characters. We KNOW them. We know their friends, enemies, quirks, fears, strengths, weaknesses and have been there through all of their trials, good and bad This can be a blessing or a curse though for writers because you are limited by an established personality unless you want to go AU or risk being OOC. So far though, I haven't found this to be the case. It's been amazing to see just how well you can get inside the character's head. It's uncanny how, just by reading your fic, I can picture it in my mind like watching an episode.

On the flip side of that, I have read books in which it's been a great adventure learning about the character as you go. I don't have an intelligent answer, obviously, but I know a couple of things about myself;

1. There are certain writing styles I tolerate better than others no matter how good the story is.
2. No matter how hard I try, there are just certain subject matter or story-lines that just don't do it for me.

There is one absolute.....I am SPOILED on fan-fiction. As I said before, there are amazingly talented writers for this fandom and many deliver exactly what I am looking for in a story with nothing I don't want to see. It's commissioning an artist to render a masterpiece to your exact specifications. IT'S AWESOME!

The one thing I am afraid of is, when the series is no longer airing new episodes, that some of the writers may loose interest or their muse may take them elsewhere. If that happens I WILL CRY! HARD! You guys/girls are my security blanket. I need my SGA and you bring it in such squee worthy fashion, I'd be really, really depressed if this fandom of writers fell away.

I know this most likely did not help you and I strayed a little off topic, sorry about that.

[sholio]

LOL! I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be here for a while. :) (And thank you!)

I find it interesting that I'm not the only one who has a little trouble settling into unfamiliar characters. I really do blame fanfic for this, because it's so easy to get used to having that build-in emotional connection to the characters. Once I get used to the new set of characters, I do start to love them (well, assuming that they're lovable *g*) but it's hard to get over that initial hurdle.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I swear part of it (maybe a big part) is editing. A lot of publishing houses are paying editors less, or not really paying editors to line edit, and it shows even in the books of the professionals--Martha Grimes is one of my favorite mystery writers, but not only am I getting sick of quotations that open but never close, or occasionally close without opening, and other dropped punctuation, her most recent book seemed to feature an absolute bloophole. The discovery of a murder weapon was referred to as if we'd already read about it, and both my husband and I combed back through the book and couldn't find it. My mother had figured she'd just missed it and read on!

They also seem not to be paying people to edit style, and even good writers need good editors.

I haven't had so much trouble lately, but I'm mostly reading academic books--where, actually, the most recent ones show poorer editing. I read Michael Chabon's Yiddish Policeman's Union (very recent) and am almost through Rita Ciresi's Pink Slip (a few years old), and neither has the problems that you mention. I'm recommending them to people (the former is AU; I guess the latter is "chick lit," but let's call it fiction with a lot of humor, and great characterization).

Then, of course, there was the Primeval book for which I accidentally hit "Read inside!" and was completely appalled that someone got paid to write it (you might have read that entry; it kind of hurts to read, but there aren't any spoilers for the show in it).

I'm amused that you mention Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower! I read that recently and nearly stopped because of the punctuation and spelling problems, which were driving me nuts! It's not a recent book, but I read a copy from a publishing house I'd never heard of, and I'm trying to decide if I care enough to read The Parable of the Talents--if I do, I see it's been republished by a different house! I had some other quibbles with the book, but I was so impressed by Kindred (which, fortunately, I read first!) that I'm not giving up on Butler. What was your problem with Sower?

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

Reader of a lot of children's lit here...I think that children's fiction reflects what's going on in adult lit, but the trends are more transparent. I've noticed A LOT of copycats in the fantasy genre, some of them almost to the point that I wonder how no one is being sued for plagiarism. Then there are the few that have very unique plots (the May Bird series, the Edge Chronicles), but the writing is so mediocre that they're not that great anyway. I picked up several books recently, and one of them was so astoundingly bad that I honestly wondered how the heck it had gotten published. Not only that, but I wanted to magically UN-publish it. Its very existence is detrimental to children across the world.

I've also noticed a trend that started in children's book sections a couple of years ago-- they are now being divided into the genres on the shelves when they used to be simply alphabetical by author. Seems like it coincided with the rise of the copycats--kid's books have to be in a genre now, and it's the genre that sells it rather than just being a good story. I don't know if that reflects on adult trends, because obviously those have been divided by genre forever, but I wonder if books are being published that are hot topics rather than solidly written. I do know that even a few of my favorite adult authors have had streaks of kinda poor titles lately (Charles DeLint, anyone?), but they sell anyway.

I've been getting into "magical realism" lately. Which is kind of a vague term, I suppose. Books like Carlos Ruis Zafon's "Book of the Wind," some stuff by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, "Solar Storms" by Linda Hogan, and "Boy's Life" by Robert McCammon top my list. They're usually in the regular old literature section (though Boy's Life is, incorrectly IMO, placed in horror). They're sort of sci-fi without being sci-fi, youknow? Rather than aliens or fairies there's just a...er...magical realism to them. And I think because the author didn't sit down to write a sci-fi novel, he or she avoided many of the pitfalls and stereotypes that an author feels have to go into a sci-fi novel.

Ok, I'm only this long-winded because I worked in a book store for five years. With sci-fi (and mystery and romance, I suppose), the characters are so archetyped that, on the one hand, sometimes it feels like reading fanfic because I know the characters already by the time I'm done with the first chapter, but on the other hand, this gets frustrating and old pretty fast. When reading fanfic, I'm looking for characters I already know to do something new, or to learn something new about them. With sci-fi, I'm often introduced to an archetyped character I recognize right away, but then that character just goes on to do the usual expected things. Ho-hum.

I've also decided to start semi-randomly choosing titles from the gay, African American, history, spirituality, and other niche book store sections. It's been hit or miss so far, but I realized that the segregation of fiction onto these tucked away shelves meant that I was missing out on at least a third of the available titles.

[sholio]

Hmm -- that's an interesting thing about fiction trends. I'm sad to hear that kids' fiction is starting to be grouped by genre; that was always one thing that I really liked about it, that it wasn't forced to conform to those sometimes very artificial divisions.

And I think because the author didn't sit down to write a sci-fi novel, he or she avoided many of the pitfalls and stereotypes that an author feels have to go into a sci-fi novel.

Absolutely. I think this is one of the reasons why I like genre-bending fiction -- I love the results when authors step out of the box for a minute or two. Heck, even Stephen King -- who is unabashedly one of my favorite authors, and one of the reasons is because I really can't anticipate what he's going to do with each new novel. They might be shelved in horror, but the majority of them really aren't.

I've also decided to start semi-randomly choosing titles from the gay, African American, history, spirituality, and other niche book store sections.

Good plan! I do a fair amount of wandering around in the library -- where things *aren't* grouped by genre; it's just all fiction all the time -- and grabbing books that catch my eye. I've found some really awesome stuff that way (and some that's quite bad, of course). When I was a kid, the Alaska library system used to have a neat thing that you could sign up for, where the library would send a box of random books to your house once a month. (This was for people like my family who lived in rural places where we didn't have libraries.) You filled out a questionaire on what sort of books you liked, and you could request specific books if you wanted, but mostly it was just "grab bag surprise". I loved it! I found so many new authors that way.

[sheron]

I've been having exactly the same problem. No solution or even an epiphany as to why, but I completely understand what you mean.

[sholio]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one. *g*

[ellex42.livejournal.com]

Wow. So glad to know I'm not the only one having this problem.

Like others here have said, it's a combination of things. Certainly the publishing companies have gotten incredibly lazy and are happily publishing both truly awful stuff as well as books that might have been quite good if they'd been through a proper editing process (I won't even touch on the fact that a lot of the publishing companies seem to be doing away with basic grammar and spelling checks).

There is a lot of truly amazing fanfic out there - not just good plots and characterization, but excellent quality of writing. I often feel a bit spoiled by it when I look at some of the newly published novels.

It's possible that your taste in literature has simply matured. Lately I've been finding that some books that I read over and over again ten years ago seem very juvenile and cliched. I can't read Mercedes Lackey or Anne McCaffrey at all now - while I still recognize a lot of merit in their work, most of their books seem formulaic and repetitive, and bit juvenile.

Lately I've gone way, way back to some older books. The writing style even 50 years ago was so different from today's - more formal and carefully constructed. I have an extensive collection of Margery Allingham's "Campion" mysteries, and have been losing myself in those, transported back to the 1930's, 40's, and 50's. I dl'ed readings of Frances Hodgson Burnett's "The Little Princess" and Baroness Orczy's "The Scarlet Pimpernel" from Librivox to listen to on my iPod, and they were wonderful. When I felt like something more modern, I picked up "Reliquary" by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child. Almost everything they've written together is exciting, thrilling, and compelling. I also just reread "Seventy-seven Clocks", by Christopher Fowler. His Bryant & May mysteries are really unusual - about a pair of elderly British police detectives who refuse to retire. Sadly, everything else Fowler has written is pretty awful.

I haven't seen much in the fantasy genre that has been worth a first look, much less a second, except for Lynn Flewelling's "Shadow's Return", the long-awaited 4th book in her Nightrunner series.

Stephanie Meyer's books are in all the bookstore windows. I was thinking of trying one. Have you read any?

[sholio]

It's possible that your taste in literature has simply matured. Lately I've been finding that some books that I read over and over again ten years ago seem very juvenile and cliched. I can't read Mercedes Lackey or Anne McCaffrey at all now - while I still recognize a lot of merit in their work, most of their books seem formulaic and repetitive, and bit juvenile.

I definitely think there's some of this going on. It's always a bit depressing to pick up a book that I absolutely loved as a teenager and realize that I can't even slog my way through it now. But it's just been so pervasive lately, in so many different genres; I keep thinking it can't ONLY be me!

When I felt like something more modern, I picked up "Reliquary" by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child. Almost everything they've written together is exciting, thrilling, and compelling.

Heh! You know, I have a "love or hate" relationship with their books. "Reliquary" was awesome, but they've also written some books that I would deem "laughably bad". Have you read "Ice Limit"? I hate to say it, but I think it's one of the worst suspense novels I've ever read! I own all of the Pendergast books even though, as the series goes along, I keep thinking that he's turning into the biggest Mary Sue ever put to paper ... though I dearly love the supporting cast.

Lately I've gone way, way back to some older books. The writing style even 50 years ago was so different from today's - more formal and carefully constructed.

You know, while this has been my general experience as well, I also wonder how much of it is simply that 50-100 year old fiction has undergone a winnowing process, and the only books we still find on shelves are those that have stood the test of time. I think there are a fair number of books coming out now (authors like John Scalzi, say, or Elizabeth Bear) who will be held up in the future as examples of how much better things were written back in 2008. I'm not saying you're wrong, because, like I said, I notice the exact same thing, but I do think that time tends to winnow away the dross while leaving the good stuff behind.

Stephanie Meyer's books are in all the bookstore windows. I was thinking of trying one. Have you read any?

I haven't read them, but I've heard they're laughably bad. Other people's opinions are only worth so much, though -- the real question is whether they trip your own reader-kinks! You might try one from the library first, though...

[aebhel.livejournal.com]

I've had much the same problem with urban fantasy. I love the genre in theory, but I've had a lot of trouble finding readable books in it, and even with the books I will read, I have to mentally edit out the clunky dialog and deus ex machina plot devices.

SGA fandom has also raised my standards considerably, which is pretty funny in light of the 'fanfic will rot you brain!' hysteria that periodically sweeps through the publishing community.

[sholio]

I've had much the same problem with urban fantasy. I love the genre in theory, but I've had a lot of trouble finding readable books in it, and even with the books I will read, I have to mentally edit out the clunky dialog and deus ex machina plot devices.

Oh, god, yes, thank you! I have the same problem with steampunk, too; I love it in theory, but wow, is it difficult to find steampunk that I actually like.

SGA fandom has also raised my standards considerably, which is pretty funny in light of the 'fanfic will rot you brain!' hysteria that periodically sweeps through the publishing community.

So true! The actual writing quality in fanfic is much better than a lot of the books I've been reading lately ...

[trobadora]

What an interesting question!

I think a lot of it is simply getting used to a certain style - sometimes it takes some deprogramming to recognise that other ways of writing are equally valid. Ways of incorporating exposition, dealing with POV - I noticed this a lot when I recently got back into an ongoing series I used to love years ago. At first, the difference to the dominant fanfic style was really striking to me, and I kept stumbling over things, but now I'm used to it again, and it reads as smoothly as anything. Very tight third person isn't the only valid POV. Including exposition paragraphs is not always a complete no-no. You can have more than one or two narrators in a story without making it choppy and unreadable. Character-centred writing isn't the only worthwhile thing in the universe. I call it fanfic brainwashing, now. *g*

(Of course there's also Sturgeon's Law. Sometimes it really is just clumsy writing.)

[sholio]

Yeah, I don't think I ever realized there was a "house style" to fanfic, and it was kind of eye-opening to realize that some of the problem I've been having lately at getting into published fiction is that I've been reading this one particular genre, and published fiction doesn't quite conform to that style. It's not the only reason, but it's definitely part of it, I think, and it was totally fascinating to realize this.

Of course there's also Sturgeon's Law. Sometimes it really is just clumsy writing.

Heh. And, yes, there is also this! And there is a LOT of fiction on the bookshelves nowadays.