I need a life, part 495,746

[sholio]

Pertaining to the previous SPN post, a couple of links to interesting discussions on race and gender issues in SPN:

Letter to Eric Kripke
On fannish objections to race/gender discussions of SPN

What I should be doing at the moment is working on my graphic novel script, which is soundly kicking my ass today. Obviously, I'm having some trouble maintaining proper focus. Also, I just realized it's already the 23rd and I still owe stargateficrec two recs each in the Sheppard and Sheppard/McKay friendship categories before the end of the month. Oops.

Hey, a question for everybody: When you rec stories, do you feel compelled to point out the flaws in your rec (making it more like a review, I suppose), or do you try to remain positive?

I find myself taking a different approach when I'm reccing things on my journal vs. at a public rec site like stargateficrec or stargategenrec. In my role as "public" reccer, I really do try to do all-positive recs -- which sometimes means finding things to rec that I really don't have any complaints about, or sometimes forcing myself to avoid mentioning the issues that I might have had with something I'm reccing. (Spelling/grammar mistakes, an ending I didn't like, etc.) I suppose that it seems unfair to bias a reader against something beforehand, when the item that bothered me might not bother them at all.

On my journal, though, I'm usually a lot more honest -- I still wouldn't rec something I didn't feel was worthy of it, obviously, but I do tend to mention things that bugged me about the story as well as things I thought were brilliant. The difference ... I guess that it's a matter of my journal being my own private space, and because it *does* make me a little uncomfortable to rec things I'm not 100% positive about without mentioning the flaws, I'd rather preserve my own comfort in my own journal. On public rec sites, I'm less concerned about my own comfort and more interested in pointing readers at a fic without predisposing them to look for the flaws in it.

As a reccer, what about you? Or is it even something you've thought about?

As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review, or would you rather go into a story with a more positive impression in mind? Or do you even read a rec beyond simply finding links to click on? (Which is actually the approach I take, more often than not. I'll skim the summary part of a rec to find out if the story sounds like my cup of tea, but I don't usually read beyond that because I'd rather be unspoiled.)

As a writer, do you object to having recs of your stories that aren't all-positive? Would you prefer not to be recced at all rather than have your story memorialized for all time as "Great characterization, terrible grammar"? (Me, I don't mind a bit, just for the record. Well, I might gripe in private about a review that I thought was really, truly unfair, but mostly I'm just interested to find out what people have to say about my stories.)

Comments

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I've worried about the rec question myself. I've done some recs at stargateficrec and agonized over which stories to rec. Partly, I want to rec stories that haven't been recommended before; the rules say not to rec stories rec'd in the same category, but I do check others so that I'm not recommending, say, a hurt/comfort story recommended the month before in a character category. I also want to rec really good stories without too many flaws, because I don't want people to be disappointed--and I figure I do have some small reputation as both a recommender and a writer of recs.

I do try to stay positive, both in community recs and on my own site. If I have criticisms, I generally try to e-mail or post them to the author. In one case, I actually contacted an author and said, "I'm about to recommend your story, and I thought you might want to clean up a problem with the way your punctuation is displaying before I do that." I figure if I have constructive criticisms, I should give them directly to the author; if they're not constructive, I tend to let them slide. I don't want people to think badly of me (to think, for instance, that I didn't notice errors), but if I'm really writing a rec, it's more important to me to be positive. I've seen a few recs of the "it's a good story if you can get past the punctuation" or, worse, "good story for X, terrible characterization of Y." Some of those have bothered me (though they aren't my stories, nor by anyone I know.) If something bothers me so much it would taint my rec, I wouldn't rec the story.

Maybe that's easy for me to say because I don't rec stories regularly. I put in far too many hours the times I did recs for stargateficrec to do that anytime soon again! (I think I made it too difficult for myself; it really is just me, and I don't want to discourage anyone else.) If anyone has recommended one of my stories with a criticism in the rec, I'm unaware of it. How I react would depend on the criticism! If someone said, "This is a good story except for the goof with the MALP," that's a fair cop (I should probably fix the goof with the MALP in that one). If someone writes, "A good story if it doesn't put you to sleep first," I'd be annoyed. :-)

[sholio]

Oh heavens, ficrec is an enormous time-sink for me! I think next month I'm probably not going to sign up for any of the categories -- I've been doing two a month for several months now, and as much fun as it is to sift through fics I liked, it's starting to wear on me a bit. Coming up with new ways to describe stories without using the same adjectives over and over ... it's like being back in English class! Like you, I think I make it too hard on myself.

The idea of emailing crit to the author before reccing their story is very interesting -- it had never occurred to me to do that.

I don't want people to think badly of me (to think, for instance, that I didn't notice errors)

Ha. I have that exact sense of unease when I post a rec, especially if I'm aware of what seem to me to be flaws -- spelling/grammar errors, an ending I didn't like, characterization that seems off to me. On the other hand, I really can't think of a time when *I've* been upset by someone giving a glowing rec to a story that I thought was full of holes -- it happens, and I just chalk it up to different tastes and move on. If I know that a particular person's recs are consistently not my thing, then I just wouldn't read their recs; there are plenty of people out there reccing things, and no shortage of different places to look. I tend to treat recs more as a reading list than as critical reviews, anyway.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I like honest recs/reviews as a reccer, reader, and writer.

Even when I posted my recs for 14valentines and was deliberately posting only recs, nothing I rated a 3 or less, I still mentioned stuff I disliked or problems a fic had, because to me that's very important. And if I were to bypass that by reccing only stuff I thought was perfect, well...I wouldn't rec very often because it's pretty rare for me to find stuff I love wholeheartedly and can't see a single flaw in.

As a reader, I do like knowing if the person is reccing it because it was really well-written, or if they're reccing it because it's their bullet-proof kink and they don't care that the writing is atrocious, so I definitely prefer reccers who qualify their recs. Recs are not for the author. They're for other readers to point them to good fic, so it really does people a disservice to make unqualified recs for fear of hurting the author's feelings. No one can trust the recs then.

As a writer, I like to know what people thought, good and bad, so I'd really prefer to know if they disliked some things than to just have it glossed over. This includes both constructive stuff and subjective stuff, because I'm curious as to what people liked and didn't.

[sholio]

Fair enough -- I think it possibly has a lot to do with how a person uses recs, because I tend to treat them as a reading list rather than critical reviews; as noted above, I rarely even read the content of a rec, aside from just enough of it to get an idea of whether or not the story would be my thing. (Probably a terrible thing to admit, but I'm the same way with books and movies -- I don't want to see the trailer or read the blurb on the back.) The important thing to me is that someone liked it enough to rec it -- otherwise, I'd rather go into it with an open mind. So I don't usually consider that other people might be looking for more information from a rec than just basic info on the story, since I don't use them that way. My one big guide to quality is usually the identity of the reccer -- if they tend to like (and rec) similar things to what I like to read, then I'll trust their recs without needing to know much else. Kind of like taking book recommendations from friends, versus a random stranger at work who rhapsodizes enthusiastic about the latest thing they read -- or warns me away from a book that they hated. None of that really tells me a whole lot about whether or not *I'd* like it.

[ratcreature]

Both as a reader and as a reccer I prefer the full disclosure approach to recs.

[sholio]

Thanks for the input! I do like reading your recs, and have appreciated the times you've recced me. :)

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Obviously if you are rec'ing something then the story has something about it worth taking the time to go check it out. I'd say half of what I read nowadays is based on rec's from other people. I've read stories that were rec'd with a positive review but with a tiny crit on some aspect and I prefer seeing that.

I've read a few stories that got great recommendations, but when I sat down to read it, the plots, characterization were awesome or whatever the purpose for the rec, but structure wise it had grammar problems, POV issues and I think that should been mentioned.

[sholio]

Yeah -- something I hadn't really considered until answering one of the other comments above is that the way I rec is heavily influenced by the way that I treat recs as a reading list without paying much attention to the actual content of the rec (i.e. if I know the reccer well enough to have a general idea of their reading tastes and I know that they liked a story, that's good enough for me). So it doesn't really occur to me to think that some people would use recs to warn them away from certain dislikes (lousy grammar, etc).

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

[via friendsfriends]

When I rec, I am aware that I'm asking people to trust my judgment on these stories. Therefore, if I have caveats, I give them, because I don't want them to think, e.g., "this story had a lot of comma splices, therefore, Isis doesn't notice comma splices."

When I read from recs (rarely) there are certain things I want to know, and certain things I don't care about. If a rec tells me that the characterization is brilliant but the plot is stupid, well, I read for plot, so I'll know to give the story a pass. Conversely, if a rec tells me that the plot is brilliant but the characterization dubious, I am more likely to read - and more likely to respect the author of the rec when I think, "damn, that characterization sucked," or possibly, more likely to think, "huh, I can see why X didn't like the characterization, because I know she refuses to believe that Rodney's anything other than a giant woobie, but I certainly liked this."

When my story is recced, I am happy just to have it recced, and I am always interested in knowing what weaknesses other people see, so I can shore them up for the next story. Although I admit that I was boggled at one rec which complained (nonspecifically) about the grammar in one of my stories, because that's one area in which I generally don't have problems!

[sholio]

Hi there, and thanks for stopping by!

One of the reasons why I love discussions of this nature is because it makes me examine my own assumptions and discover interesting things that hadn't occurred to me before -- in this case, it's just how much the way a person uses recs influences the sort of recs they give. In my case, I tend to take them as a reading list without giving much consideration to their content, so I hadn't really thought that a lot of people do appreciate a more balanced and analytical rec.

I really do love having the weaknesses in my own stories pointed out (however will I learn otherwise?) and I'm not shy about making similar comments on TV and movies and published books ... but I do tend to shy away when it comes to fic, except to perhaps skirt around an issue with the story in fairly general terms. Which is something that I might ought to work on a bit; thanks!

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I got an LJ is I wanted to discuss fics in a critical manner with other fans. I quickly discovered that I just can't. In order to have someone to talk about fic with, I have to build relationships; and once I've friended someone, or had any sort of interaction with them, I can't make myself be anything except positive.

I've even thought of sockpuppeting; but don't think I'd do it well.

[sholio]

Ha, yeah, I hear you on this. It sort of depends on the situation, because I find it quite easy to engage in a thoughtful, private debate over a story I'm beta-ing, or one where I'm helping the author work out their plot. (I like that kind of thing, and I like having friends I can do that with!) But once it's posted, and public -- I *want* to have thoughtful and critical discussions of fanfic, the same way we do of the show itself, but it is hard to overcome the part of me that doesn't want anyone to feel bad about their work.

(Have you seen sga_talk, by the way? It's basically *for* that, and avoids the wank potential by having authors nominate their own work for discussion.)

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting thing to consider. I recc'd a story where the author shifts POVs throughout the story without warning, and I'd debated on whether to warn the readers about it or not (I didn't).

Personally, I like to know as much as I can about a story before reading, which is why I get frustrated with people who turn their noses up at putting in warnings, or don't feel the need to change genres if the story starts out as gen but ends up being slash or het. As a reader, I wouldn't mind knowing if the author is a fan of character A, and his/her story casts character B in a rather negative light (Ex. "the characterization of character B felt a little off for me" type of thing.) As a writer, I'm always trying to improve, so wouldn't mind knowing the issues readers had with my work.

On the other hand, the issues a reader may have could just be a matter of opinion, including with spelling and grammer errors (Ex. The reccer warns against spelling errors when there may be only one to two spelling mistakes. A bit of an exaggerated example, I know, but I can see some people going overboard with their warnings.)

Personally, when I rec a story, I usually don't have any issues with it beyond minor personal ones that are easy to ignore (Ex. I'm not a fan of an emotionally-shattered Sheppard being healed by McKay yelling at him, but for some - depending on the story - the method works.) If the issues are too big for me to ignore, even if they are personal, or the grammer, spelling, and writing method make the story difficult to read, then - even if the story was still fairly decent - I won't rec it. So, except for the one story mentioned above, I usually don't think about pointing problems out.

I have thought about doing private recs and critiques on my own journal so I can discuss the pros and cons in-depth. I've also been thinking about submitting stories to the SGA discussion community, as I would like to recieve in-depth critiques of my own stuff.

[sholio]

Personally I think the sga_talk comm is a great idea, and would love to see more people get involved with it!

Regarding recs ... there really haven't been *that* many times I've been tempted to bring up issues with a story in a review, but I can think of a few. I'm still not sure if I made the right decision or not. Since I personally prefer less information rather than more, it's not been until this discussion that I've really given thought to whether I'm doing my readers a disservice by not giving more balanced recs.

On the other hand, issues like the ones you mentioned are the sort of thing that wouldn't be mentioned in a rec or a story's warnings, generally (though, I'd *love* an OOC warning sometimes!) -- in those cases, the only thing that really helps is to know if the author and/or reccers' opinions on the characters are similar to yours.

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

I generally don't read the comments that go along with recs, I'll just read the story. So, I guess that means I use it as a way to find links. That being said, when it comes to my stories, I personally don't like reading criticism in a reccing forum. I appreciate if someone writes to me in an email to comment on my fic, or if the story is being reviewed or discussed in a forum intended for that, but a bad crit in a public rec can feel a bit like a punch to the gut. If it's about grammar or punctuation, I don't care. I know I slip up, even though I have a beta, everyone does. It's rare not to see at least one typo in a fic (I usually have at least one a chapter). But, if someone comments on my style or my characterization or my plot--no matter how glowing the rest of the rec is, that feels harsh.

However, in a personal journal? You can write what you please, because, as you said, it's your own personal thoughts. Of course, the author may never speak to you again...LOL!

Unfortunately, I think most fic writers have thin skins. I know I do. Those who are more out there with their work, who are published writers or artists who know the sting of rejection, I think they appreciate a good crit. So, in a public forum, they can handle it. But for me, I only appreciate a good crit if it comes in an email from someone I respect, or someone I like. Anyone else, I'll get defensive. And then question everything about the story. I've taken stories down because of one bad crit. Like I said -- thin skin.

This isn't a very comprehensive comment. Sorry about that. Anyway, just my two cents.

[kriadydragon.livejournal.com]

"Anyone else, I'll get defensive. And then question everything about the story. I've taken stories down because of one bad crit. Like I said -- thin skin."

That's why I tend to be torn about in-depth critiques. I want them, I do, then I recieve them and either go on the defensive or suddenly think my work is crap. A lot of times, though, it's because of the way the critique is handle - pointing out more bad than good, and offering no suggestions for making things better. I once had a critique where the person chastized me for not doing more with a particular character. I apologized, thought they had a point, then later learned from another writer that this person is never satisfied with the way writers handle her favorite character. She wasn't critiquing my work, she was trying to steer me in the direction "she" wanted me to go.

I think the best critiques, IMO, are one-on-one - with betas, over e-mails, etc - so that the issues can be talked out and, therefore, worked out. The best writing class I took was a one-on-one seminar with a published author, and it was very insightful and a heck of a lot less daunting than having a group critique my work.

[wraithfodder.livejournal.com]

I find a lot of fic through recs; via friends or LJ posts, etc. Most are short recs, with one or two sentences and I go check it out. I'm not much for reading indepth reviews (akin to vivisections in some cases) as those reviews tend to give away too much plot. However, warnings are okay. I don't want to be halfway through a story to discover it's slash when I dont' read that genre. Also, if a reviewer does find fault, provide constructive critcism, not catty remarks ("this person couldn't write their way out of a paperbag", that kind of stuff).

But, although I rarely rec as I never find time, I do appreciate those that do. Points me toward fiction I can read:)

[sholio]

I do find a *lot* of fic via recs, too (and favorites lists on ff.net, which amounts to much the same thing, I suppose). It's really a fantastic thing ... and I don't want it to be an unhappy thing for anyone involved, which probably has something to do with why I balk at going too in-depth into what I didn't like about a fic. (Though, as mentioned in a comment above, even if I was brutally honest with the fics I rec, it would still only be a tiny minority that would come with caveats. Which is something I hadn't really thought about.)

[amalthia]

I try to leave positive recs because if I do caveats for one story I feel like I have to do it for all stories. (I rarely use caveats and my last example funnily enough happened today. I'd read a story but I could not actually read the story at the author's LJ due to formatting issues with the font colors and etc..so I added that to my rec) Also I feel if I'm going to say a story has issues and take the time to point them out I feel like I should also have time to volunteer to beta read for the author's next story, otherwise I keep my mouth shut. I know this is probably weird and not at all how most people think but I think at one point in the past I sent an email to an author saying I liked the story but...and ended up beta reading the next story as a result.

So my recs I keep it short and simple and most people who actually use my recs on a regular basis probably know what my comments really means about a story.

As a writer, I don't mind people reccing my fics with caveats.

[sholio]

Your recs are actually just about ideal for me (and I do find them most helpful!) -- a couple of basic notes on pairing/genre/fandom, and then a sentence or so about the story. For me, personally, that's all I really *want* from a rec. So yours work great for me. I think I'd probably rec more stuff if I did shorter recs -- 4-5 recs a month is about all I can really manage at stargateficrec with the more in-depth format over there.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I'm torn. When it comes to reading recs, I don't mind a little crit thrown in with the positive - knowing what I'm getting into will often keep me reading a story (such as a rec that warns, 'story has grammar problems but amazing plot/characterization' - I'd probably give said story a better chance than I would have if the rec'er hadn't mentioned those problems.) And I take recs with a grain of salt anyway: if I don't know the rec'er well, "wildly OOC" doesn't mean much, as I don't know what the rec'er considers in or out of character; while as if I do know the rec'er I either know their OOC isn't mine, or I trust their judgment enough to read a fic they liked well enough to rec, even with reservations.

When it comes to writing recs...I rarely rec'ed before, because I'm always nervous about leaving people out or slighting my friends, and have strange concerns about being judged for my own tastes. Lately I've gotten a delicious account and have been filling that up with recs, which occasionally include caveats. And I'd likely do the same on a public forum, but I'm uneasy about it - tipper_green mentioned above that many fan writers have thin skins, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, or worse make them pull their stories from the 'net - while I theoretically believe in the, hmm, 'right' to criticize any art that's put out for public consumption, at the same time not all fanfic'ers are in this game to 'improve their craft' or whatever, and I respect that.

And then, when it comes to people rec'ing my own stuff, I don't care why someone links it or what they say about it, just that they do. No such thing as bad publicity - I'd be fine with someone linking one of my stories saying, 'this is the worst characterization I have ever read, I just wanted to share with you how atrocious it is,' because hey, people would probably come read it anyway! If anything, a review with caveats makes me all the warm & fuzzier - I know my stories aren't perfect (whose are?) but if someone didn't like the ending or whatever, but still enjoyed the story enough to tell other people it's worth reading - that's just awesome.

[sholio]

Oh hey, you have a delicious? Ooh! Must go look! :D I haven't really plunged into those waters yet, but I'm slowly getting turned onto it as a way of finding new fic! And you might have run across something I haven't ...

while I theoretically believe in the, hmm, 'right' to criticize any art that's put out for public consumption, at the same time not all fanfic'ers are in this game to 'improve their craft' or whatever, and I respect that.

Yeah, that's pretty much me in a nutshell. I believe wholeheartedly that anything out there in the public eye *should* be available for public criticism (just as I believe in theory that fanwork ought to be open to remixing and reficcing just like published works). But when it comes to actual practice -- fandom is supposed to be a *fun* thing, and I don't want to be the person who makes someone else's fannish experience *less* fun. Or turn myself into the epicenter of a wankstorm, of course.

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review, or would you rather go into a story with a more positive impression in mind?<<

Both. *g* If I'm about to read a recommendation, I expect that the person doing it actually likes the story and I hope that it shows in the rec itself. What was it that was so great, touched the reccer in a certain way or impressed the reccer this much? From the actual "rec"-part of a recommendation I want to learn what caused the enthusiasm over the story 'cause that's usually the story's strong suit, no matter if it's characterization, choice of words, pacing, mood or simply a certain scenario that simply appealed to the reccer.

But *if* there are things that bothered the reccer, I want to know about them as well, simply to know what to expect. A recommendation is mostly a very subjective affair and things that bothered the reccer might not bother me as much though I have to know about them in the first place in order to be able to decide this. Chances are good that if I like the same things a particular reccer likes in a story I will dislike the same things he or she disliked.

While I like to "feel" the enthusiasm in the rec-part, having the not-so-great parts mentioned is enough. If the part of "things that bothered me" gets longer and is worded more passionate than the positive part, there's something seriously wrong with the recommendation. *G*

Don't laugh, I've actually read this kind of recs and came to the conclusion that it was rather a case of liking a few certain things very, very much in a story that the reccer, over all, didn't particularly like as a whole. So it was more a "didn't really like the story but felt very enthusiastic about a certain point/part of it" than "really loved the story but found a few minor things I disliked".

[sholio]

This makes sense! Thanks for the input.

I've run across quite a few stories where there was one part, or one aspect of it, that really stood out for me, but the rest wasn't that great. Of course, I don't generally rec those...

[leesa_perrie]

I try not to predispose the reader, but offhand I can't remember if I have pointed out any flaws. I don't think I have. I do point out (without spoiling) if something might squick the reader, i.e. on stargategenrec if I think it has a slight ship undertone I'll warn just to be safe even if I don't think it's enough to consider the story as ship. I warn about non-con, deathfic etc as well. I try not to be too over enthusiastic 'cos that could put people off ... but with some stories I just can't help myself squeeing ...!

If the grammar is not brilliant I won't mention that - unless it's really bad in which case I might say the story is worth reading despite the grammatical errors. To be honest, though, the story would have to be very good for me to rec something like that.

As for my own stories, I don't mind a small criticism as at least I'm being recced (and I know my writing has room for improvement). Large criticisms would make me wonder why they're still reccing me ... would I respond? Don't know. Never happened to me yet.

[sholio]

Yeah, I point out potential squicks as well. If I'm reccing for a community, I'll warn according to their guidelines -- for example, in stargategenrec I'll mention possible ship (as you do); in stargateficrec I'm careful to warn for character death even if it's a circumstance where I wouldn't normally (for example, a major spoiler in the story), because that's one of the things they require.

I've also noticed, now that I'm paying more attention to it, that I always issue warnings for canon spoilers and also for things that have been "jossed" when I'm reccing older fic (e.g. I just did one today that was written pre-season 4 and contains certain plot elements that no longer quite work, so I did mention that in my rec).

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review

The problem with this is that what you (generic you that is) think is a wart, I as a reader might think is great or not a problem at all. I mean sure, problems with the basics - things like grammar, not being able to spell the names of the main characters correctly or really, really out of character behavior (without there being a good reason for said behavior) then yeah - those are problems. But if the problems are that big, then I would wonder why you were reccing the story in the first place.

I agree with the person who talked about one of the differences between a public reccing list and a private journal is I have slightly better insight into the people on my friends list then I do the general public. For example having read your fics Friendshipper I have a pretty good idea of your view of the characters so I would be better able to judge a comment like "interesting plot but I found Rodney to a bit out of character" from you then I would from someone who I didn't know as well and had no idea what his/her view of Rodney was. Does s/he see him as 1)a poot woobie who needs to be protected form his mean teammates, 2) total SOB who doesn't deserve the friends he does have, or 3)a guy with the hard outer shell, mushy insides who most the the time gives as good as he gets in his relationship with his closest friends. I might not know these things from someone on of the public reccing lists as well as I would from someone on my f-list.

I hope that makes some sense...

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's why I tend to mention the things I like about the story only (maybe a side note about name misspellings if applicable). What I like isn't necessarily what other people like, but I trust them to know that. But what I dislike is harder for them to tell without reading the story, and I wouldn't want to put someone off unnecessarily.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

As a reccer, I'll just quote isiscolo said, because I think she hit the nail on the head: When I rec, I am aware that I'm asking people to trust my judgment on these stories. Therefore, if I have caveats, I give them, because I don't want them to think, e.g., "this story had a lot of comma splices, therefore, Isis doesn't notice comma splices."

I don't rec stories unless I thought they were good, unless I liked them or they provoked a strong emotional reaction in me, but sometimes that happens in stories I have some issues with, and reccing really is all about asking people to trust your judgment. To me it's the sam thing as saying, "Hey, you should really see this movie" -- if you have reservations, of course you're going to mention them, both because you don't want the person to whom you gave the recommendation to go in expecting something different than they're getting, and because you don't want the person to think you can't recognize bad acting/writing/directing/whatever.

As a reader, I prefer these kind of recs as well. I may not always agree, but it gives me more thing to look at when I consider whether or not to read a story, which I always appreciate.

[sholio]

Good points, all!

I'm still more comfortable not pre-disposing a person not to like a story if the problems I had with it are a matter of personal taste, though. Really, the more I think about it, there are very few examples I can come up with of stories I've recced recently that I would have given any caveats at all. If the story disintegrated into incomprehensibility at the end, or the characters were OOC or whatnot, I don't think I'd rec it at all. (Or I might do something like this.) The only counter-example I can think of is one I recced a little while back that had some problems with verb tense -- it was mostly present tense, but every once in a while a random past-tense verb found its way into the mix. This is something I opted not to mention in the rec (I didn't actually notice it until my second read-through while I was writing the rec, anyway). But it's something I'm absurdly anal about, so I did notice it and kinda wished I'd mentioned it after-the-fact.

bit rambly there.

[sheron]

As a reader I prefer a more positive review because otherwise I'll often get talked OUT of reading the story. For example, I was going down a list of recs from someone who gives all the caveats and she is like "Amazing story, well, needs a beta really a lot but..." and I'm thinking, do I really want to read that story? No. The truth is, I probably wouldn't have noticed the typos myself or wouldn't care, but now that it's been said I would be looking for them and that ruins the story for me. Also something like "Amazing story, just ignore them screaming as they come" also gets in the way. It's already difficult enough to suspend disbelief for certain romantic scenes, but when you know someone else disbeliefs along with you it's near impossible.

So as a reader I would rather not know until I had a chance to make up my mind. This is of course only for people whose recs I trust. But establishing or ruining trust is easy. If after 5-10 fics I see that our tastes match/don't match I go from there. I don't assume that the reccer owes me to provide a good story, I assume they reced it because they liked it.

Re: bit rambly there.

[sheron]

As a reccer I usually go all positive because I want people to give the story a chance!

As a writer, I love any kind of crit (as long as it's not flaming) but I much prefer crit to be emailed to me privately or given in a less public forum. Still, if it has to be blasted across the entire internet, I don't mind.

Here via Metafandom.

[scarlet-pencil.livejournal.com]

When I rec a fic, I try to rec fics that I think are flawless, or nearly so. This is because I tend to be very tolerant of stories that hit my fancies. I remember reading (and enjoying) this one story that had questionable plot, characterization, and grammar just because I enjoyed the idea and liked the characters it focused on. I enjoyed that fic quite a bit, and I'd probably consider rereading it in the future. But I wouldn't rec it, because even though I enjoyed it, it does have issues with grammar/characterization/ect.

So, I rec fics that I think are flawless or nearly so. I also rec fics that I figure most people haven't read. I'm not going to rec one of the most read stories in the fandom, I'm going to rec the undiscovered gems. XD

Finally, I like to point out the positive things about the fic. I think I have mentioned the negatives a couple times, but overall I try to send people into the stories feeling that, "Wow, this must be a good fic." ^^

Re: Here via Metafandom.

[sholio]

Yeah, generally that's the approach I take, too. In public comms, at least, I rarely rec things that I don't feel very strongly are good and rec-worthy stories, and I want to send people off to them with a positive and hopeful expectation of a good read.

It's a little different in my own journal for several reasons, partly because I'll sometimes rec rare fandoms and there just isn't enough fic in those fandoms to pick out the best of the best. But still, I try to focus on the positive as much as possible.

Here from metafandom

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

Well--I haven't done any "public" recs (as in, posted to a community and aimed at everyone in the community. I have made recs in, say, a public entry in someone's journal/my own journal, or comments on a public entry in a community) but when I rec things one-on-one, I tend to mention what I think are the flaws. I might say something like, "Author X is a little too fond of deus ex machina endings, but his worldbuilding is fantastic and his writing is engaging". I do this for a couple of reasons... first, I feel like knowing about the flaws beforehand can make it easier to look past them (if I know beforehand that something has a lame ending, I get less invested in the plot and focus more on other aspects, so the lame ending doesn't really upset me when it happens). Sometimes, something's more enjoyable if it's in line with my general expectations. If I'm looking for something serious and I get cheesy fun, I'm going to be a little put out, even if the cheesy fun is something that I might normally enjoy. Second, it seems like it's only fair to warn the person ahead of time, just in case that flaw is something they really hate. Sort of like warning for potential squicks. I mean, the point isn't to get them to read it no matter what--the point is to tell them about something I think they might like.

I won't go into the flaws in too much detail, or dwell on them much, though, if I liked the story. I just try to mention them in passing to give the person a better idea of what to expect.

ETA: Oh, and if the flaws are something minor that I think might be easily overlooked, I might not say what they are specifically... just something along the lines of, "It has some issues with grammar, but overall..." or "It has a few problems/issues, but I think they're relatively minor."

Re: Here from metafandom

[sholio]

Yeah ... I can see your points. It's such a tough call for me to make -- I don't want to predispose a reader not to like a story, because usually, when I'm reccing something, it's because I'm all "Squee! Yay!" about the story and I would like other people to have a chance for Squee! Yay! of their own. On the other hand, especially after reading some of the other comments here, I wonder if people might be MORE likely to give a story a chance if the flaws are mentioned in context, so they don't stop reading immediately when they hit a grammar error or misspelled name. Hmm...

[boosette.livejournal.com]

Right, so, I intend to respond more fully in the morning (the short of it: I do not rec things I don't live love one million percent in a public place for which there are Reasons and I have a set of reasons for this), but I have to thank you a whole great big lot for pointing me toward stargategenrec which I did not previously know existed.

[sholio]

Well, you're very welcome! :D I rec a lot of stuff over there and I'm so glad to point someone new to the comm!

[busaikko]

I think you're talking about two things here (that by necessity overlap).

The first is the story, and I assume that this is the reason for the rec (I've never seen a fic recced for excellent use of a semicolon). This is where your judgment falls, and I'd like to know why you liked it, and what you didn't like/what didn't work. You don't need to go into spoiler-y detail, but just mentioning, say, that X and Y's characterisation was on the button, but A struck you as a little off; or that the ending was abrupt and unsatisfying; or that or that while MPreg usually doesn't float your boat, the fantastic plotting blew you away. Everyone has different squicks and triggers, and an honest rec is a way to make a good match (it's like arranging a blind date: yeah, Helen's a real sweetie, but the person you want to introduce should know she smokes / swears like a sailor).

The second part is the technical aspect (the spelling, grammar, punctuation errors). I appreciate warnings for that because I get more squicked by missing commas than, ah, MPreg; though I will grit my teeth and plow through if I'm told the payoff is worth it. I have made corrections to fics after being prodded by reviews *g* Some stories are also really hard to read due to freaky formatting: I find it very frustrating to click a promising link only to find tiny grey letters on white.... /TMI

[sholio]

But what about the worst of all possible worlds ... an mpreg story with no commas!

... sorry. :D (oh god, I bet they're out there, though...)

Interesting way to break it down. I think grammar/spelling warnings are one of the big areas where I do feel compelled to warn, where necessary, because that's a big turnoff for me. (Actually, what prompted me to post this was that I recently recced a story that had a few problems in that area ... I opted not to mention them, and then felt guilty and maybe slightly deceptive about it.) When it comes to squishier issues of characterization, etc, I might say "I really loved John in this" but would probably be reluctant to add "... but Rodney's voice wasn't quite right" because that's such a tremendously subjective thing. It's something that I might mention in a review but probably not in a rec, if that makes any sense.

Best policy and all that stuff

[klangley56.livejournal.com]

Honesty, that is. If you are discussing a story in any forum, I want to hear your *whole* opinion, not the bowdlerized version.

And here's a point that I think is totally overlooked in modern fandom: Recommendation doesn't always mean "positive." You also can recommend that a story *not* be read (and state why).

Re: Best policy and all that stuff

[sholio]

That's fair. Heh. I have done anti-recs, but usually it's in terms of privately bitching to friends (e.g. via email) about some eyebleed-inducing story that I saw somewhere. I'm not sure a story could be awful enough for me to actually warn people away from it ...

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I do lots of recs on my journal and I tend to be honest. I don't rec anything I don't want to read again; in fact, my recs are a way of keeping track for myself stories that I like well enough that I'll go back to them in future. So I generally offer a teensy, mostly non-spoilery plot synopsis, what I liked, what didn't work for me, and quote or two. Rarely, I do a review of a fic that's a post in and of itself and I tend to go into more depth about what didn't work for me in those.

As a reader, I prefer honest reviews and as a writer as well. More often than not I find complaints about my work legitimate and have either revised or taken the issue under consideration for future works.

[sholio]

stargategenrec kinda *is* my fanfic-tracking system for stories I liked ... which is why I have so much more trouble finding a story that's not gen and/or SGA!

Ironically, I tend to prefer honest reviews (and recs) as a writer, but I'm reluctant to give them as a reader. For one thing, I've upset people a couple of times by being TOO honest in my reviews. I know there's nothing you can do about how someone else is going to respond to something you wrote, but I still hate to make someone else's day a little worse if I'm honestly trying to pay them a compliment with my rec!

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

On other people's recs: I don't always read the text or I skim, I want to come in as unspoiled as possible.

On my recs: Vote 1: Honesty. I hate to warn in advance plot-wise so I'm always torn between talking about what/why I liked and an urge to be cryptic. I will mention theme/style/grammar/punctuation both positively and negatively but for the most part I'm reccing because I liked so it's easy to talk about the good.

If I've encountered something glaring in a fic I like enough to rec I'll usually mention it as part of feedback either privately or in a comment if it's a trivial typo.

[sholio]

On other people's recs: I don't always read the text or I skim, I want to come in as unspoiled as possible.

Hey, cool to know it's not just me!

Yeah, the issue doesn't tend to come up with most of what I rec because usually, I'm reccing something because I really loved it. There have only been a few times when there was something I considered mentioning and then decided not to.

Heer via metafandom

[briarwood.livejournal.com]

When you rec stories, do you feel compelled to point out the flaws in your rec (making it more like a review, I suppose), or do you try to remain positive?

Recs and reviews are not the same thing. If I post a rec, I'm saying "hey, guys, I really enjoyed this and here's why I think you will, too". I only mention negatives if I've got something positive to say about them (like "it's X pairing which I know sounds weird but in this story it really works").

I've written fanfic reviews; that's not something I do any more because I don't have time, but a review should point out the negatives, too. A reviewer isn't a beta-reader: pointing out a couple of typos doesn't serve anyone. But if there are real negatives to a story, a review should include them.

As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review, or would you rather go into a story with a more positive impression in mind?

As a reader (of recs) I want information. I want to know why the reccer is bothering to rec the story. Take most of the recs in crack_impala - they're about the minimum. Mostly, the reccers don't bother to say what makes this fic better than a hundred others posted that week, but at least they say whether it's dark or funny or whatever. Few things frustrate me more than a "rec" post that's nothing more than a links list.

As a writer, do you object to having recs of your stories that aren't all-positive?

Absolutely not. I have no issues with criticism of my stories. I guess I object to misinformation: one of my fics which got a bunch of recs kept getting described as a crossover, which it wasn't. But someone pointing out my grammar is poor or my plot needs work? No. It's valid and they're entitled to say it.

Re: Heer via metafandom

[sholio]

Yeah, I definitely agree about the difference between recs and reviews. Actually, since I have a history of writing reviews for fanzines and the like, it's a little bit of adjustment to get into the "squee! yay! check out this cool story!" headspace rather than the "dissecting a patient" headspace that I use for reviewing a book or TV show. Trying to figure out the intersection of the two is what makes me second-guess myself when writing recs ...

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

When you rec stories, do you feel compelled to point out the flaws in your rec (making it more like a review, I suppose), or do you try to remain positive?

I never point out flaws in a story be it in a review, comments or recs - it's just the way I am and my 'outlook' on fanfic. And I do rec stories that have got typos, layout issue, grammar stuff - nothing major and of the kind whereby the reader who go 'huh, what's the writer trying to say here', but stuff that isn't technically perfect. But I like it, I feel it worthy of being recc'd, so I rec it. When it comes to other 'negative' things: an ending I didn't like, off-characterisation, etc. etc. well I wouldn't considering reccing the story in the first place, because if it had those kinds of 'problems' then to me, no matter how 'good' it was in other respects, it wouldn't be worthy of being recc'd - by me. Maybe that's a weird way of looking at it, of doing recs, but that's me :-)

I do rec on crack_van from time to time and I make a point of saying that I rec stories that I personally enjoy, and that's how I do it. If I like a story then I'll rec it; it doesn't matter if it has a smattering of typos or other technical errors in it, those to me personally aren't important. And I know that whilst they are for some people, others, like myself, aren't bothered. I do tend to say if the author is a non-native English speaker, but I do that so that I can also be positive about how good they are. I'll also make a point of saying if the writer is new to writing and/or the pairing I'm reccing.

Or is it even something you've thought about?

When I first started to rec, I did think about whether I should say 'this story has a handful of technical errors', not for the reader so much as for how I might be perceived as a reccer if I didn't mention them. However, I thought about how I'd feel if I saw one of my stories recc'd and it included 'there are a few typos' and added to the fact that I know typos don't bother everyone, plus I'm off the view that if someone says 'not beta'd' or 'this probably contains errors' then people's minds get into that way of thinking and they go looking for the typos. Not consciously (well some do, I know) but sub-consciously. Thus, if a reccer says the story has a few typos, people might well look for them, but if nothing is said, they could well be caught up in the story and thus not bother. Also saying 'there are a handful of typos' will put some people off reading what is otherwise a great story.

As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review, or would you rather go into a story with a more positive impression in mind? Or do you even read a rec beyond simply finding links to click on?

As a reader, I rarely read recs, because I know that one person's idea of a rec worthy story isn't someone else's. That's generalising of course. If the rec is by an author I love then of course I'll read it, ditto if it happens to be my main pairing in my main fandom, then I'll read that. But that aside I read recs, as in reading what people say, and I far prefer recs that are positive. I don't really want 'warts and all', I'd rather form my own impression, and it bothers me (on the author's behalf) if I see a rec that is critical - beyond maybe a 'there are a few minor technical errors, but they don't detract from the story' kind of comment.

As a writer, do you object to having recs of your stories that aren't all-positive? Would you prefer not to be recced at all rather than have your story memorialized for all time as "Great characterization, terrible grammar"?

I would definitely prefer not to be recc'd at all than to have 'great characterisation, terrible grammar'. I'd feel awful if that was said. It's not so much I'd 'object' to it, I'd just be upset by it and wonder why the person bothered to rec the story in the first place.

[sholio]

Thank you for the long response!

I think this is my big fear for doing recs -- if I rec something I want it to be a nice thing for the author; I'd hate to think that someone was hurt or upset by something that I said when I recced them.