sholio | NCIS - a bit of griping

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NCIS - a bit of griping

We're up to the middle of season 3 now (I think we just finished off the third disc -- or maybe the fourth) and my interest in the show is starting to flag somewhat. It may just be the cumulative effect of having watched two and a half seasons at the rate of 2-4 episodes a day, but lately I'm feeling more annoyed with the show than squeeful about it.

I think part of the problem is that I found Kate and Tony's bickering cute and entertaining (if kind of repetitive at times), but Tony and Ziva's bickering is like fingernails on a blackboard for me. Every time they're in the same room I cringe. It'd be okay if there wasn't that much of it, or if a Tony-and-Ziva episode cropped up every once in a while, but if anything, it's become the focus of the show: Tony and Ziva trapped together, handcuffed together, pretending to be married ... *shriek* Part of it, I guess, is the ramping up of the UST. I liked how Kate and Tony were about 90% platonic. Of all the women in his life, he never hit on her -- despite the snarking and the nosiness about her personal life, there was mostly respect there. With Ziva -- it feels more like he's just trying to get into her pants rather than having any actual interest in her as a person.

*sighs* I just wish there would be more episodes focused on the rest of the cast or the group as a whole. I loved the McGee one, "Probie" -- I don't think I'd be so annoyed with Tony and Ziva if I got to watch something other than the two of them in various strained UST-generating situations. It's definitely giving me sympathy for people who complained about the focus on Sheppard and McKay in SGA's 3rd season, because if you find John and Rodney's bickering annoying, the show must have been almost unbearable. That's how Tony and Ziva have become for me. If they're going to be onscreen a lot, I just wish the characters' relationship would go somewhere already, rather than just recycling the same jokes.

And you know, beyond the in-your-face UST, I think that's a big part of the problem I'm having with both Tony and Ziva: no new material. Every third line is Tony making a sexist joke or Ziva messing up an English idiom, and it's very, very wearing. Tony, in particular, I'm starting to find far more annoying than cute; his juvenile antics are getting so over-the-top that I find him offensive and unprofessional, rather than funny. He's just got no sense of perspective, and feels like he hasn't really grown at all in three seasons, and it's frustrating.

You know what else ... I can't figure out Abby and McGee's relationship. They were pretty obviously sleeping together in early season one ... weren't they? So how'd they get back to UST and acting weird around each other and Abby snapping at McGee if he checks her out? Hasn't he *seen* it all already? It's weird ... sometimes this show is really good with long plot arcs and dealing with the consequences of past episodes (e.g. all the aftermath of Kate's death -- and then I'll feel like they've hit the reset button for some reason.

Okay. Done complaining now. Well, mostly. *g* I do still enjoy the show, but I wish there was a little less of a Tony-and-Ziva focus this season. I don't want those characters to be written out, but I'd like the see them paired off in different combinations for a while. I want Ziva-and-Abby, Tony-and-Gibbs, McGee-and-Ziva (who have hardly even interacted at all) ... or anything, really, as long as it's different.

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Didn't you just about have a heart attack though, at the end of season 2? That was the third or fourth NCIS episode that I watched. "Oh, cute show, wonderful team, love them all" and whoa.

I admit I love Ziva and Tony together. Kate was a bit mean sometimes, a bit too uptight and eager to prove she wasn't into Tony; Ziva banters right back.

You ready for those fic rec's now? :)

It was really well done. I knew that *something* happened to Kate at some point, because in one of the earlier NCIS discussions someone told me that they took Kate off the show (I forget the exact wording now), but that whole episode was really nicely put together. I got the feeling, watching it, that it was one of those "... and in tonight's episode, one of these people will die!" kind of things, because the whole episode was a series of fake-outs (did they kill so & so?) and then leading up to that final shot through the head ... wow.

So far, that's my favorite part of the series ... late season 2 and then the aftermath of Kate's death. I'm not blaming Ziva for the decline in my interest in the show since then (actually, as a character I think she's pretty interesting) but I haven't been as enthusiastic about the show lately. Fanfic ... I'm really feeling kind of "meh" about it right now, but if you have any good recs for Abby fic, I'd take that. :)

Something happened to Kate . . .

water-soter.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 00:19 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Something happened to Kate . . .

sholio - 2008-01-25 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

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tringasolitaria.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 03:49 (UTC) - Expand

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flingslass.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 07:52 (UTC) - Expand

Hmmmmmm . . . Okay, I see where you're coming from. When I started getting into the show season 4 and started renting entire seasons, well, it does get tiresome after a while. Maybe its because I started watching in season 4/5 and met Ziva first, but Kate really annoyed me. The focus of season one was all about Kate and Gibbs interacting together. That got boring fast. Season 2 was really great I think, it gave all the characters a place.

I won't get too much into the other seasons because you haven't seen them, but it does seem like every season has a character focus. The whole thing with Tony, wait until the end of season 3 and season 4, that's where his character really gets interesting. Recommend taking a bit of a break before continuing, its a lot to take in, in such a short amount of time.

Have to agree that Tony really comes into his own in Season 4. :)

I think you may be right that I'm at least partly reacting to the change from what I'm used to. It's not my *only* issue, but I think it's probably true that if I'd started watching with the Ziva/Tony being as prominent as it is, I wouldn't be objecting to it now.

Hmm, if you want character development hold out for season four *knowing wink*

And Abby/McGee I read somewhere that TPTB decided to dial back their relationship once they made McGee a regular to avoid shippiness o_O

As for Kate... I understand the actress wanted out? In my mind that made the transition smooth-er, and I agree that those three episodes are some of the best :)

Ziva I like enough, though I had a soft spot for Kate precisely because she was modern and indipendent and a bit of a prude, which is a combination that's rarely seen on tv these days. Ziva's own brand of sexiness is a lot more common (on the screen).

And Abby/McGee I read somewhere that TPTB decided to dial back their relationship once they made McGee a regular to avoid shippiness o_O

... wuh? In light of how they've been playing up the Ziva/Tony (and Kate/Tony towards the end of last season) that makes no sense at all. But it sounds like the sort of decision that corporate executives might make...

I think Kate's awkwardness -- not knowing crime scene etiquette, having to struggle to find her place in the team, etc. -- really endeared her to me. Ziva's an outsider, but a different sort of outsider. Right now, I *want* to like her but I'm finding it hard.

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anniehow.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 10:17 (UTC) - Expand

I stopped watching NCIS because I got so annoyed at Tony; he never seems to learn, or he does, only to forget again. I thought it just started being bad writing. (I liked Michael Weatherly better as Logan Cale on Dark Angel!) I occasionally watch--yes, for McGee. When they publicized that someone was going to die at the end of s2, I was terribly afraid for him!

My husband watches regularly, so I just wander in and out for the good bits. I can well imagine how wearing Ziva and Tony can get! I do think watching the episodes that fast doesn't help. I try to avoid watching any show that way (and since Small Child came along, that hasn't been a problem!).

They have a great cast, but I get frustrated at the writing. Funny how I seem to say that about multiple shows....

Tony's definitely getting on my nerves. Other commenters tell me there's better to come, so I'm hanging in there for now.

It's definitely giving me sympathy for people who complained about the focus on Sheppard and McKay in SGA's 3rd season, because if you find John and Rodney's bickering annoying, the show must have been almost unbearable.

Not just their bickering, but the entire focus of the show being on the two of them, to the exclusion of the other characters. But yeah. You've pretty much summed up what I was so frustrated with on the show--and that made Carson's fate that much more hateful. And, if I'm being totally honest, the fandom's entire, "What is your problem?" attitude about the John and Rodney-ness of the show is the rest of the reason I'm not interested in coming back to the fold.

I've gotten a couple of NCIS disks from Netflix; now I'm wondering if I should just send them back--like I have time to watch, anyway.... ;-)

No, don't let me scare you away! It really is a very good show, and for all I know, the characters who are driving me crazy at the moment might turn out to be your favorites. It's definitely worth giving it a chance.

And, like I've said before, I *am* really sorry that the fandom drove you away. For what it's worth, I know you weren't the only disillusioned fan who left around that time.

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nonniemous.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 16:31 (UTC) - Expand

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sholio - 2008-01-28 10:38 (UTC) - Expand

Tony, in particular, I'm starting to find far more annoying than cute

Oddly enough (but bear in mind I watched the episodes all completely oout of order at first with a mish-mash of mostly Seasons 2 & 3 with some 1 and some 4 - am just now watching through all the Season 1 eps I hadn't seen) part of the reason I resisted getting into the show at first despite others' recommendations was that in the bits of eps I had seen, I found Tony annoying rather than cute... once I decided to give the show a try and watched more, he grew on me! :lol:

I've kinda followed this bell curve with Tony ... I started out being annoyed by him, then started seeing past the irritating surface to the nicer guy underneath, and then I've kinda swung back around on him because he's just *so* annoying this season! But people tell me it improves.

Your icon! Hee! Like it.

Give it time, give it time. I had the same frustrations as you with season three. I didn't like Ziva, didn't like all the bickering, and so gradually stopped watching. Then season four comes... well, I can't say too much, of course, so I'll just say that I started watching again.

I'll also say that I like Ziva, now. Her tough-chick, unflappable persona is quite nicely balanced with her crappy driving and inability to say Amrican phrases right. She's both warrior princess and super dork :D.

Right now, I kinda *want* to like Ziva but I'm finding it hard. But several people have said to wait and see, so ... I'm waiting and seeing. *grin*

See this is why NCIS is my 'popcorn' show. I don't have expectations. I'm not deeply rooted into the characters, even though I like the whole cast. Its my 'fun' investigate, let the team squabble and not think too deeply show. I often wondered what everyone else saw when I saw so many on my F-list go-on and on about it. I mean its entertaining but never drew me in hard core.

That being said, I like Ziva now more then when she first came on board over Kate. You have a point Kate and Tony's UST was much more subtle then with Ziva's and I think that came with the increased popularity of Tony's character from female fans and TPTBG felt they needed to push that aspect hard.

For me the hay-day seasons are 2-4....this season has been decent but nothing to write home about, except for the very beginning, none of the episodes realty stand out to me.

I like Tony, Abby, Gibbs, McGee. Once it came on USA twice on Wednesdays I Tivo all the old episodes because I missed a ton. Maybe scale back your intake. My two to three episodes a week is just the right amount and I enjoy it for what it is.

Well, I think that's where I am with most of the shows I'm mildly fannish about (including this one). I enjoy it, but I'm not deeply invested in it; since I'm less interested in this season than past ones, it does mean I can get things done while the episodes play. (In fact, I'm typing this while halfheartedly watching an episode right now!)

Hmmmm. It's been a while since I watched S3. I don't remember having a lot of problems with the show then though. I did miss Kate, and I loved Tony and Kate's bickering. I never really had a problem with Ziva though, and there were some times she really cracked me up.

In S5, though, I have to say I really did start getting irritated with her for the first time. I don't know...we'll see where it goes. I hope it gets better, because I really do love this show. We'll see what S6 brings, since S5 is basically dead due to the strike.

I agree with everyone that says Tony gets better in S4. He does - he grows a lot. Abby and McGee - I guess I just got the idea that they'd slept together and decided they were better friends than lovers, but there's still a little something there between them.

My thoughts are really scattered about this - I'm sorry! I'm trying to make an intelligent comment, but it's not really happening. :(

I just went away to refresh my memory by checking the IMDB.com episode list. There were some good episodes that season (what did you think of Frame Up? Bloodbath was another good one, but you haven't gotten there yet.), but yeah, now that I think about it, I think I was starting to get a little exasperated with Tony's antics that season. It gets better though.

Several people have said that things improve ... so I'm sticking with it! There *have* been some episodes I've liked -- Frame Up was one of them. I like seeing the team's loyalty to each other, though it seems like we haven't really been getting as much of it this season as we did in the past one.

Yeah, McGee and Abby tend to have an on-again, off-again relationship. One of the things I like about the show is that they do leave bits of character development (like Abby and McGee breaking up) off screen, because to me it makes it feel more realistic and less soap opera-y-- life goes on even when the camera isn't there-- but I can see how it could also be annoying that they don't make it clear that that's what happened.

Re: Tony & Ziva: One of the show's weak points (I think) is that they do tend to focus on certain character pairings-- not necessarily romantic pairings, but just who the main characters are in the episode, which characters get to do all the real work. Tony and Ziva are one of those pairings, and while it does get less heavy handed in later seasons (I think they were trying especially hard in S3 because she was new), it never does goes away completely.

Or like McGee, or Abby-- every so often it's kind of like they go 'oh, oops, we've kind of been neglecting these characters, haven't we', and then they'll do an episode focusing on one or the other. It kind of reminds me of the cartoons of my childhood, where they'd suddenly do an Extra Special Episode! about one of the minor characters in an attempt to balance things out, only it would just feel forced.

Not that NCIS is that bad, of course, and I do think NCIS does one of the best jobs at balancing an ensemble cast that I've ever seen in a crime show, but that's one area where I think they need work. Like you said, I'd love to see different characters pair up more often in an episode-- McGee and Ziva, especially. Or McGee and Gibbs. But the "Tony and Ziva Show" DOES get better in time, so I'd recommend giving it a few days so you don't overdose.

Edited 2008-01-25 04:25 (UTC)

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alessandriana.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 04:27 (UTC) - Expand

I was very disgusted with Tony's character that season, because he basically turned into a sexist pig and too much of a goofball. As it turns out, this was what the NETWORK wanted--who says the suits aren't a bunch of idiots? I have followed Don Bellisarius shows since the days of Magnum PI, so I heard about the stupid network on the NCIS discussion boards. They wanted to play Tony as less serious. Very annoying, since he started off as a bit goofy, but otherwise a good investigator with a brain.

Fortunately, the suits must have heard enough complaints that they've dialed Tony back a bit, and things are much better now. But you'll have to wait for a while longer, and I can't say more, since I don't want to spoil things.

The Tony and Ziva UST is still there, but it's toned down, and they've had some great shows focusing on Gibbs and a couple with Tim. There are some Abby scenes coming up where you just want to stand up and cheer.

So hang in there, but also it's probably good to take a break, too! (g)

I was very disgusted with Tony's character that season, because he basically turned into a sexist pig and too much of a goofball. As it turns out, this was what the NETWORK wanted--who says the suits aren't a bunch of idiots? I have followed Don Bellisarius shows since the days of Magnum PI, so I heard about the stupid network on the NCIS discussion boards. They wanted to play Tony as less serious. Very annoying, since he started off as a bit goofy, but otherwise a good investigator with a brain.

It's really nice that it's not just me ... it feels like he's gone from being a competent investigator with an over-active mouth, to being so flippant and so lacking in propriety that it's a wonder anyone can stand to work with him.

But your comment and the others are giving me hope that things pick up.

Seeing as the sole reason I started watching this show was to see how the one Israeli character I knew of on TV was portrayed, I was only too happy they showed a lot of Ziva. I watched a mishmash of S3, and 4, episodes, whatever I could get my hands on, and if it didn't pull me in I'd just fast forward to the Ziva parts.

And then, suddenly, I started liking the characters. And getting involved in the arcs (well, the S4 arc). I'd read episode summaries and then watch whichever episode looked interesting, until finally I couldn't help but watch them chronologically. And at some point I began to like Ziva too, once I managed to accept who she was and not be bothered by the wrong Israeli-isms.

Not having watched eps in order, though, I didn't notice that they were so Tony and Ziva centric. I do think it lessens, especially in S4, where there is indeed major character development for Tony. I still haven't watched all of S1 and S2 - they were interesting for a while, but then less, and it was weird getting used to the team's interaction with Kate plus all the inconsistencies of a show's first episodes in contrast with a seasoned S2 and onwards. And I hadn't even known Abby and McGee had been together until I'd read it online - personally, I much prefer them as friends, so seeing them together in the first seasons was almost squicky, and I'm glad they got rid of it. It all depends on what you get used to first.

In any case, you can tone it down, but I do advise to keep watching :-)

And if you want a fic rec to give you back your Tony love: Rictus (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2404010/1/Rictus) by Sequitur. It's the story of how Tony started working for Gibbs, when they met through a case with shared baltimore PD/NCIS jurisdiction. It's an amazing fic, with plot and the best characterization ever, but I warn you, it'll spoil you for almost all NCIS fics after that, because it's hands down the best NCIS fic out there. IMO. No spoilers for any season; it takes place pre-show.

I saw your Ziva post a little while back, but didn't want to read it at that point, since all I'd seen of her was the episode where she was introduced. I need to go back and look for it! Right now, I kinda *want* to like her but I'm finding her interactions with Tony extremely difficult to watch. I think I'd find her easier to sympathize with if she was growing and developing with all the cast, and on her own, rather than just as Tony's partner/love interest, which is how she feels to me right now.

I like Abby and McGee better as friends too; it's just that the level to which they scaled it back was really weird, since they'd been sleeping together and then suddenly were acting like even the idea of seeing each other naked was weird and freaky.

Anyway, I need to go read your Ziva post because I'm curious what you have to say about Ziva's Israeli-ness. (I'm guessing it's not going to be good.) And I'll at least take a peek at the fic rec next time I have a minute; my interest in Tony is really at rock bottom right now, but maybe pre-show Tony would be easier for me to take.

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roga.livejournal.com - 2008-01-25 17:50 (UTC) - Expand

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sholio - 2008-01-26 06:32 (UTC) - Expand

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sholio - 2008-01-27 02:05 (UTC) - Expand

I've noticed no one mentioning the absolute legend that is Dr Donald 'Ducky' Mallard and his trusty offsider Jimmy Palmer. David McCallum does a fantastic job with this role.

I couldn't stand Kate which is why I accidentally blabbed about her. I think Ziva is endearing in her non-Americanisms but I got very frustrated with what they were doing with Tony. He should be growing and maturing, instead he sometimes seemed to backslide. A habit that producers have done to the goofy younger partner for years. I nominate Johnny from Emergency! as an example.

Oh yes, Ducky! I love Ducky, and Palmer is hilarious in his weird, deadpan not-quite-innocent sort of way.

You've heard it before by now, but just give it time! Season four's Tony is much deeper and more interesting (you'll have seen glimpses of that already, like in Frame Up), and Gibbs gets a lot more attention, too. And, while Ziva's never been my favorite, she grew on me alot in S4 and S5. And there's been some episodes in season 5 so far that you're gonna LOVE. They hit all the right "family" buttons. Hopefully the strike will be resolved soon enough to save the end of the season . . .

The problem with the show is that they'll have these amazing performances and storylines -- but then they'll have these stretches where they just sorta . . . fizzle. Thankfully, so far, they've always come back strong, eventually.

I realize that every show has its slumps ... I was kinda worried that the new focus this season was indicative of more of a turn to a Tony and Ziva romance with less airtime for the other characters, but it sounds like that's not the case.

I have to second the recommendation of Rictus (http://www.fanfiction.net/u/816472/Sequitur), it was actually the fic I was thinking of pointing you towards as well. I, in fact, rec all of Sequitur's NCIS fics. Found in Translation (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2619029/1/Found_in_Translation) is another one of my favorites, as it manages to be funny, yet nail so many of Tony's observations about his teammates. It's set pre-Twilight, so can be enjoyed without spoiling anything for you.

I do recall being more disappointed in S3, but that was when I actually started watching the show on a weekly basis, so perhaps the space between episodes helped. The forced Tony and Ziva interaction grated on me as well, and I didn't like her for the first half of the season. I think the point I really softened towards her is a later episode, when we see a different side to her. Don't want to say too much as it's an excellent episode, and wouldn't want you to be spoiled for any of it.

I'll go check out the fic, next time I need something to read. We're on the fifth disc now, and the aspects of the show that were really annoying me have lightened up a bit.

Hmmm... this is me de-lurking from your NCIS discussions... sorta...

Truth be told, I noted your squee post a little while and sort of wondered if you might develop a few "issues" with the show after you watched it over a period of time. Honestly, I don't sit back and analyse my friends fannish preferences a great deal, but because you and I agree on so much, I do find it interesting to see where we differ. But I didn't want throw my issues with NCIS in your face before. That would just be harshing your squee really. Which would be not cool.

And I don't hate NCIS or anything like that. Like you, I enjoy the quirky characters and team dynamics. But I perceive an anti-Arab/hardcore right wing undercurrent to the show which makes me feel very uncomfortable if I watch the show on a regular basis. I can watch it sporadically (and do), but my perception of the "agenda it peddles" stops me from really getting fannish about it.

I have mentioned my perception of an agenda to fannish friends before and some have said they don't see it (although, interestingly, my brothers did when I mentioned it to them). But I think the problem really is that I personally do see it and it pings on me quite harshly.

I started watching it from when it first aired (way back when I was living in Canada, actually) and it was mainly because I've always been fond of David McCallum and I recognised Michael Weatherly. I think I watched most of season one, just enjoying the quirky team dynamics. But by early season two, my issues with "the agenda" had grown to beyond my comfort levels, so I pulled back.

And so to me Kate's death was an interesting plot twist. Ziva didn't annoy me. I was only watching sporadically, so I wouldn't know how often they pushed the UST with Tony thing. I must admit that Tony is less entertaining to me as a character when I occasionally watch these days. I think I like McGee more as a character. His quirks seem to be better maintained.

But once again, these are MY ISSUES.

Carry on.

heheheheh. Funny you should mention that, because ... I haven't really talked about this yet and wasn't sure if I was going to (kind of like it took me a really long time to get to the point of bringing up the race issues I have with SPN), but I've been bothered by much the same thing. Or, I suppose the way that it comes across to me is as a very strong pro-military/pro-U.S./pro-establishment bias in the show. I guess that's not a terribly surprising thing in a show that's ABOUT the U.S. military, but it's pronounced enough to really bother me sometimes. There's a pervasive feeling in the show that loyalty to the military/to one's country (if one's country is the U.S., of course :D ) is a virtue to be prized above all others, that the military establishment is never in the wrong, and (most problematic to me) that the civil rights of people suspected of a crime can be ignored at will, especially if they belong to certain subgroups of society. (Muslims. Peaceniks. Working-class people.) Like with so much of this kind of thing, it's the lack of an opposing viewpoint that makes it frustrating -- that is, not only are all the characters are pretty much on the same page politically, but the plots themselves are set up in such a way that pro-America, pro-West, anti-dissent viewpoint is always right. If the characters get in trouble for racially profiling suspects or detaining suspects without cause, it's only so that their actions can ultimately be proven to be justified.

So, yeah, I do see it, and it does make me feel kinda skeevy at times, though not really enough to prevent me from enjoying the show overall. As the show has gone on, I've really gravitated towards Abby and McGee as the characters I'm mainly focused on, and I think one of the reasons why is because they're a little bit less "establishment" than everyone else on the show ... if that makes any sense.