sholio | Some recs for various stuff

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Some recs for various stuff

Still haven't seen Lifeline (well, the official version, with sound f/x) because I'm waiting for the husband to watch it with me, and, like a sweetie, I bought him Bioshock (the video game) a couple of days ago -- which has led to me being a Bioshock widow all weekend! (But he also fixed the door that was letting a draft in, so I guess I won't whine. Much. *pokes husband*)

I've been watching Psych instead, because he's not interested in that one. It's not great, but really, really cute. The first few episodes turned me off a little bit because it was a little TOO silly, but they've been getting a lot better and stronger. The characters are adorable. (And as a random thing, I really love how the police chief is just ... pregnant; it's never really mentioned, never made a big deal -- she just is. I was just complaining in email about how much sci-fi sucks at dealing with pregnancy, so this is making a very nice, refreshing change for me!)

And

xparrot is writing Psych fic! So nice to be in a mutual fandom again -- we're watching quite a bit of the same stuff right now, but our fic reading and writing doesn't overlap a whole lot. So last night I read her Whisper for the Living, which is really good, albeit about as different from the show as it's possible to be while still being recognizably them -- it's deathfic, but it isn't depressing (at least I didn't think so); sad, yes, but also insightful and packs a wallop at the end. More of her Pysch fic here, which I'm looking forward to diving into this evening.

A few SGA recs:

I'm continuing to be blown away by the quality of fic in

mcshep_match -- if McKay/Sheppard slash is your thing, you really can't go wrong with any of these. I've yet to encounter a bad story there, and most of them are fairly long and plotty, too! The ones that have really blown me away so far are Rock, Paper (No Scissors) and The Experiment -- both of which have a really strong friendship/affection dynamic underlying the sexual dynamic, and both of which made the relationship work, for me, within the context of canon, which is often a hard sell. (The latter one, in fact, is sweetly affectionate NC-17 slash that is entirely consistent with a gen reading of the characters -- I was amazed that someone actually managed to DO that, but the author did. I am impressed.)

I'm reccing Ronon at

stargateficrec this month. I've already got a short list of stories I want to rec, but if anyone has favorite Ronon links (gen, het or slash) feel free to comment here and I'll take a look at them! I really appreciated all the Ronon/Rodney links that everyone gave me here and I'm still working through them; I got into a period where I was reading mostly angst and darkfic rather than schmoopier ones, but now that the new season has started, I'm back to my happyfic place and getting caught up on all the cheerfully friendshippy and romantic stories that I'd bypassed the first time around...

But rolling back to season 1, a really good Ford POV that I read last night: Five Times Aiden Ford (Almost) Wished He Was on a Different Team, And One Time He Didn't. This was rec'd on

stargategenrec awhile back, and I meant to read it then but forgot, so I was happy to stumble across it again. It's a companion piece to Storm Damage and both take place in an AU universe where Sheppard and McKay are women. I really love this 'verse, for one thing because it's so astonishingly rare to find genderswitch fic that's gen -- but the author also just nails the subtle differences to the McKay-Sheppard and team dynamic that come with the gender change; it's all recognizable and yet pleasantly different. In the Ford one, I loved the way the author takes standard SGA fic tropes and then plays them out with the female team: weird alien rituals, McKay and Sheppard fighting about Chaya, etc. Much fun!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

You may or may not remember me ('awesomesauce', anyone?), but I'm just popping in to say...

Dude, you're watching Psych now? It's a really cool show in my opinion, but that's really, really weird because I've actually been working on a Psych story over like, the last two weeks. A, um, time travel!Psych fic (*cough*), but still.

Also, Lifeline was a good episode... though nothing quite beats the moments of Rodney flying a 'jumper last episode. ;D

Hmm... genderbender fic done well? I'm intrigued. *hops off to go take a look*

Awesomesauce! Sure! Hee! I think it's funny how there's this fandom domino effect, where a bunch of people seem to jump into a show all at once -- SGA was like that once upon a time, and this past year it's been Doctor Who (and Heroes, though I haven't jumped on that one yet), and now it seems like half the people I talk to online are getting into Psych! I'm kinda late to that bandwagon, too ... but it's fun! And I'll be interested to read your fic if you post it! Psych isn't really a show where I'm beating down the walls looking for fic, but on the other hand, it's a small fandom (unlike, say, Supernatural, where I'm almost afraid to start looking for fic because I know I'd find 1500 stories I wanted to read if I let myself).

And yes, genderswitch is normally one of those instant turn-offs for me, but I really like this 'verse -- I think she's got a good handle on what makes the characters tick, and on the ways they'd relate to each other if most of them were female. It's not just an excuse for sex with girlparts. *g*

SGA was like that once upon a time, and this past year it's been Doctor Who (and Heroes, though I haven't jumped on that one yet), and now it seems like half the people I talk to online are getting into Psych!
That's really funny because I'm into all of those, though I've been with Psych since the beginning. Still, it is strange to see all these familiar names bouncing around like this. And kind of cool.

And I'll be interested to read your fic if you post it!
That might be a while, since Lassiter and Shawn just won't stop, but I'll let you know once it's done.

Psych isn't really a show where I'm beating down the walls looking for fic,
Yeah, I know what'cha mean. But if you're ever in the psychfic neighborhood, you should check out centipede's and MusicalLuna's stuff.

It's not just an excuse for sex with girlparts. *g*
Exactly. That's the kind of thing that always turns me off to genderbender stories rated over PG. It seriously sucks the actually fun of having a different perspective from the entire thing.

And in an interesting segue, I actually started a genderbender sort of fic of my own as something to work on when my other story (let's call it the Shoebox, shall we?) is kicking my butt. So far I've been told it's believable... or, as believable as genderbender may ever get.

I just thought it was weird that the day after I posted the first chapter on LJ, someone comes up with recs for the same kind of fics, though in a different fandom.

*bounces & blushes* thank you~! So glad you enjoyed it ^___^

It is an awfully cute show, no? (And I really like the female chars - Vick's pregnancy is handled wonderfully for being so unremarkable, and then Juliet's rather awesome.) It's not the best thing I've seen, but...yeah, something about the chars is ficcishly inspiring, dynamics in need of poking.

(am looking forward to the chance to read your fic!)

Yes, they do a good job with the women; Juliet and the captain are both really likeable, and Juliet's just as doofy as the guys, in her own way. I'm thinking that once I get to the end of season 1, which I borrowed from a friend, I'm probably going to swing into other shows for a little while -- we have several boxed sets that aren't even *opened* yet! It doesn't really have the makings of a die-hard, "buy every episode on iTunes as they come out" sort of show for me. But I'm certainly liking it ...

... and I can't wait'll you can read my fic, too! It's been something like five years since we were both actively in a fandom at the same time, isn't it?

the police chief is just ... pregnant; it's never really mentioned, never made a big deal -- she just is.

Very cool. Although pregnancy is a special time in a woman's life, it is so very common that it's nice to see a woman just being pregnant without a lot of fuss about it.

but if anyone has favorite Ronon links (gen, het or slash) feel free to comment here

I've missed the boat! I'm writing a giant Ronon fic (pun!) right now, but it won't be ready for quite a while. I'm interested to read the stories that get recced to you in the meantime.

I'm really looking forward to yours, even though I know it'll be awhile! I can't wait to see what you do with the big lug...

... and yeah, pregnancy; I know that it has a big effect on someone's life, but what I've been bitching about lately, to anyone who'll listen, is the way that sci-fi uses it as a plot device, usually to cause the heroine to pop out some sort of demon seed or Chosen Child before either a) going back to her regular life (re: Vala) or b) dying or otherwise leaving the show. It's extraordinarily rare in sci-fi to see pregnancy and childbearing treated as a natural part of life, as opposed to either something weird and freaky, or something that totally sidelines you from all the interesting things in life. I think that's why the pregnancy on Psych really struck me, because she's quite pregnant (probably about 7 or 8 months from the look of her) and yet there's no script-related *reason* why she's pregnant, she just *is*, and she's used on the show in the same way that a male counterpart would be.

(jumping in to say regarding SF pregnancies...Keiko O'Brien in ST:TNG had a routine pregnancy, though fell prey to the "gives birth during a disaster scenario." And Fox Xanatos is the only pregnant American cartoon char I've ever seen...okay, Gargoyles is fantasy not SF. And then there's FarScape's take on the matter. But yes, I see your point...)

I've thought about Keiko before, because she's the only sci-fi character I can think of (from media SF, anyway) who's had a normal pregnancy with nothing magical or freaky about it. Well, I don't know about Farscape; I'm vaguely aware that Claudia Black's character had a baby, but I don't know if it was just a baby or if there was major weirdness about it.

And yeah, Fox! I had forgotten about her. That was really awesome, for a cartoon *and* for sci-fi/fantasy. Actually, I'm totally blanking on any other pregnant cartoon characters even in non-American cartoons; surely anime has a few, but I can't think of any. (Oh, waitaminute -- there was a minor character who was pregnant in ... crap, that Disney llama movie, what was the name of that? Aargh! Google! "Emperor's New Groove".)

Aeryn's baby in FS...well, it was weird for a human, but an ordinary pregnancy for a Peacekeeper (they can keep fertilized eggs basically in stasis in their wombs for several years, a useful trait for a warrior race). There was a lot of drama concerning the baby's existence, but not the baby itself.

In FMA, Hugh's wife was pregnant in the beginning...that's the only one I can remember in anime offhand. (and again, emergency birth situation. Even in non-SF TV, births tend to be such dramatic affairs, they always happen in stuck elevators or hostage situations. I also liked in Psych that the birth was so routine.)

Oh right, I forgot about FMA! And I guess DBZ had several kids who were born and raised during the course of the series.

It's a little easier for me to accept the drama that usually surrounds childbirth on TV because there's drama associated with *everything* on TV -- like you, I really liked that the birth on Psych was so refreshingly normal, but I'm okay with TV babies tending to be born in statistically unlikely ways. *g* And as extraordinary as sci-fi characters' lives are in general, it's not so odd that pregnancy/childbirth would be a little unusual for them too. I guess it's just that it's such a huge cliche that every pregnant woman in SF has to be giving birth to something other than a normal baby -- the chosen one/freaky baby angle has been thoroughly played out, and there are lots of story possibilities in having a female fighter pilot or space captain get pregnant in the usual way ... stories that aren't being told.

idyll gives great Ronon. Her master list is here (http://idyll.livejournal.com/338332.html#cutid1).

Ooh, thank you! I know I've read a few of her stories; in fact, I think she might've written one that I was wanting to find for possibly reccing. Thanks!

Oh, Psych. ♥ Such an adorable little show, even if there is a definite lack of any kind of hurt... Evil fangirl that I am, I want to see my characters suffer a bit, too! But the cuteness is enough to keep me interested. Shawn and Gus are such wonderful best friends forever, and they've got a great dynamic - and then Lassiter and Juliet and Chief Vick all get more involved with Shawn and Gus, and you get to see their relationships too, and it's all really well done.

I really DO love that the Chief just is pregnant - I reacted to that with total surprise, because most shows make pregnancy into such a huge deal, having her be pregnant full stop - that is cool. She can still do her job and be tough and in charge and whatnot - doesn't matter that she's a woman, doesn't matter that she's carrying a child, it's not going to change that she is the Chief. Yay. ♥

And I love Shawn and his dad - I rewatched the pilot today, and there Shawn says he hates Harry, and then by the end of it he's realized that he probably doesn't hate him at all, and them growing back together is awfully sweet.

And Shawn is... annoying and immature and I can't help but love him a whole lot.

Thanks for the SGA recs, too - I was just looking for stuff to read.

I reacted to that with total surprise, because most shows make pregnancy into such a huge deal, having her be pregnant full stop - that is cool.

I know! I had basically the same reaction -- just surprise when I noticed it, because it wasn't a plot point or anything; it just was. I hadn't realized up to that point how I'd been ... conditioned, I guess, to expect that women on TV would always be pregnant for a story reason, not just because they simply happened to be pregnant. But when I look around my workplace, since I work with a bunch of other women of generally childbearing age, there's always at least one who's pregnant or else taking care of a small baby. It's not remarkable, it's just part of a workplace with both men and women in the workforce!

And it happens that after posting this, the next episode was the one where she had the baby, which was really, really fun. Actually, both the A and B plots were a ton of fun in that one -- David Nykl! And Gus being a giant geek! And Juliet being a girl-geek! But I did really like how she was so matter-of-fact about having the baby, and then at the end, her comment that she'll be back to work the next day (and the guys trying to talk her out of it!). Yet she's not a bad mom, and she obviously adores her child; it's just that a mom isn't ALL she is. (And I giggled at the way her husband is mentioned, but never seen -- a nod, I guess, to all those cop shows where the wives are mentioned but never seen!)

Conditioned is a good word! A pregnancy one of those things that are so absolutely life-changing for the people involved that TV usually takes that a step further - there is no pregnancy that doesn't lead to some great dramatic event. I guess it does kind of make sense, from a storytelling perspective - it's pretty rare to have characters like Chief Vick, where we know nothing about her home life at all. (I'm very amused by the absent husband, too!) So having a character be pregnant would mean they would have to change their lives to a certain extent, to accommodate the child... I'm trying to think of another show where it would be possible to be so matter of fact about it, and since I watch a lot of sf/adventure... I'm kind of drawing a blank.

Though it really would be nice if it were more common - especially in sci fi, which has a tendency to make pregnancy seem about as unusual and terrifying as growing a second head - one that eats people!

And it happens that after posting this, the next episode was the one where she had the baby, which was really, really fun. Actually, both the A and B plots were a ton of fun in that one -- David Nykl! And Gus being a giant geek! And Juliet being a girl-geek!

Yes! And George Takei! ♥ Having George Takei playing his Psych-verse self was such a blast, and I did squee over David Nykl. With tidy hair! And I am so very amused that Gus is such a geek, and that Juliet is a proud geek!

But I did really like how she was so matter-of-fact about having the baby, and then at the end, her comment that she'll be back to work the next day (and the guys trying to talk her out of it!). Yet she's not a bad mom, and she obviously adores her child; it's just that a mom isn't ALL she is.

Hee. Poor Lassiter. But he tried! So hard! And he did a good job, considering... And Chief Vick, back at work almost immediately afterwards without anyone making a huge deal about that either. Yay~!

Psych is summer sweetness, and the cure for the winter doldrums. It's totally carried by the characters, and I love them all to bits. I do wish it, occassionally, went for a little more suspense/danger, but I can live with the lightness, so long as they continue to be fun! I do wander over to Psychfic every so often, but I think it's actually pretty hard to imitate the speed and wit of the dialogue on the show, and there isn't that much good fic. Also...most of it is shipper. Which I hate. Romance has never been my cup of tea, what can I say? Unless the relationship is volatile (like, say, Maddie Hayes and David Addison before it got HORRIBLE--and, yes, I'm dating myself with that comment), angsty relationships don't really do it for me. I like fire, not mush.

And that ended up in a serious ramble. LOL!

Have fun with the rest of Psych!

Still enjoying it! I think that for me, it's a little *too* light; I'm definitely feeling the lack of a serious undertone. But it's a ton of fun, and the characters are so wonderful -- the more I see of them, the more I'm starting to love them. Thank you for enabling me! *g*

I live to enable. *snort*

Yeah...I go for mush on occasion myself, but the pairings in Psych (het or slash) do nothing for me. Drives me a bit nuts reading the fandom, because I adore Juliet, just not paired with Shawn, and it's hard to find her in a non-romantic role in fic.

...in conclusion, isn't Psych adorable? yays! ^_^

I adore Juliet, just not paired with Shawn, and it's hard to find her in a non-romantic role in fic.

You know, actually, that's an ongoing problem with female characters in ensemble casts -- at least in the fandoms where I've read widely; they're either a relatively minor character in a story where everyone is featured, or they get a starring role in a romantic story. But female-centric gen, especially action or h/c gen, is incredibly rare; I know I'm always looking for it in SGA. This might be different in fandoms like Buffy that have a lot of female characters who tend to be front-and-center of the scripts, though.

Besides the obvious fact that 99% of fanfic writers are women (and most women, ourselves not included for some reason, seem to need romance so much that they seek it out in literature and on TV, and, if they don't see it, they create it), I think another part of it is age. A lot of fanfic writers are younger, and...I think they think about it more. Dream about it more, might be a better word for it. I was certainly guilty of it to a degree in my last fandom, except that I used the relationship I created for comic relief and it was pretty subtly. Which, I think, says something odd about me. LOL!

But I'm probably oversimplifying--that's just a knee jerk theory.

Yeah, I've definitely noticed less gen and more romance in fandoms that skew younger (like most anime fandoms).

For me, too, the male characters on most shows tend to be the ones I imprint on -- the ones who have the personalities, and the relationships with each other, that make me want to write and read about them. And clearly I'm not the only one! With SGA, I've never been that engaged by Elizabeth, and I only really started liking Teyla in season 3, so there wasn't much to write about on the female-character front. (Now that Keller and Sam have joined the mix, I'm quite excited about using them as viewpoint characters -- though mostly for an outsider perspective on the guys!)

It is true that, since the bulk of TV show writers are men, they tend to write the men far better than the women. That is, as you say, they give them more personality. Which is frustrating. And I think it comes from being told--and I was told this too in my one writing class--that men can't write women and women can't write men, because they're too "different". Codswollop. If the male writers wrote their female characters like they write their male characters, I think we'd get more true to life women. Ones with personalities just as varied as male characters, and writing that way wouldn't necessarily take away anything feminine about them. I sometimes feel, until the *actress* can get enough a hold on her character to mold her, taking away some of the writer's rigid mentalities, women rarely take form on TV shows until the second season, sometimes the third (Teyla being a good case in point). Even Buffy was somewhat cartoonish at first.

Speaking of, placing a woman as the focal point of a show is hard, I think, since, with rare exceptions like Buffy and Vala and the like, if a show has female-centric characters, inevitably, the show is about romance or family or, to ratchet us back to the 50s, domestic troubles. I mean, look at Bionic Woman (I don't know if you saw it, but, anyway...). In the pilot, there was a fraught relationship with an angst-filled teenage sister, a pregnancy, a marriage proposal, and sex--and none of it really made sense with the larger picture. It's as if, whoever was writing it, thought, "oh, we must appeal to the female audience. It's not enough to have a female lead, we have to make her girly. Let's make her pregnant for no good reason except blatant manipulation of the female gender!" It's just obnoxious. (Second episode was better, for the record).

I don't know--I think you have to let shows mature to get really rich female characters on shows that aren't romance based. But, because romance is so *easy* a thing to use women for...that's what you get most of the time as their sole raison d'etre. Part of me resents shipping on SGA for that reason. I find it a little demeaning for Teyla (and Elizabeth)--like that's all she's good for. So...

I'm rambling again. Sorry. Too many ideas for a comment. Let's just say that I too wish for more interesting female characters in sci-fi. Preferably ones who have a sense of humor.

I think there are male writers who can't write women - and female writers who can't write men. But no, it's definitely not an absolute rule and it's silly to say so.

Preferably ones who have a sense of humor.

I swear this is a goodly percentage of why I go for male chars more than female - male chars tend to be funnier. I'm not sure why male writers have a hard time writing women being witty/sarcastic/whatever, but they do. (I swear one reason B5's Ivanova is such a great femme char is because she's one of the funniest chars on the show. And while I haven't seen Buffy I'm guessing that's one reason the girls in that are liked? It's definitely one of the reasons I like Juliet, she brings the funny on Psych as much as her male costars.)

Yeah, that's a good part of it for me too. Like I said in my other comment to Tipper, it seems like most shows stick the female characters in the role of straight man -- the sensible one who's rolling their eyes at the boys' antics. And while a lot of women are like that, or occasionally react like that to the behavior of the men around them, most women have at least SOME sense of humor and quite a lot of us are every bit as silly as any men ever were ... *g*

In most of the cases I can think of where I've gone for a female character, one of her main traits has been that she's funny -- either having a sense of humor herself, or actually being part of the comic relief on the show.

Too many ideas for a comment.

No no, you can't have too many ideas -- I want ideas! I like ideas! For one thing, it gets me thinking, too ...

And I agree. In fandom, it seems that fans often take the blame for not liking or wanting to write or read about female characters -- but I'd say the original writers are the ones to blame, for giving the female characters so little to do! In general, it's the guys who get to be funny, quirky, evil-turning-good, good-turning-evil, crazy, bickery, and all those other fun things. Women all too often get stuck in the role of "the level-headed one" or the killjoy ruining the guys' fun, and who wants to project themselves into THAT? Not that there isn't a certain element of realism to that particular dynamic (I'm not sure how many times I've stared in disbelief at some of the insane things that the guys in my life have gotten up to) but there's a whole lot more to Womandom than just the supportive big sister or the eye-rolling mom. Vala would be awesome enough all on her own merits, but she's made doubly so because it's so tragically RARE in SF to have a female character who's flamboyant and goofy and fun and sexually secure, the way that she is.

I sometimes feel, until the *actress* can get enough a hold on her character to mold her, taking away some of the writer's rigid mentalities, women rarely take form on TV shows until the second season, sometimes the third (Teyla being a good case in point).

This is actually a really interesting observation. I don't think it's just true of female characters -- most characters feel a little bit unformed in their earliest episodes, and it usually takes half a season or more for the casts of most shows that I can think of to really start clicking together. But putting this together with the rest of your comment ... if the men are the ones getting the meaty dialogue and the more interesting plotlines, then the female characters' actresses would have a little more work to do as far as emoting beyond the limitations of their role, and would need more time in which to expand on what they'd been given. Hmm!

Speaking of, placing a woman as the focal point of a show is hard, I think, since, with rare exceptions like Buffy and Vala and the like, if a show has female-centric characters, inevitably, the show is about romance or family or, to ratchet us back to the 50s, domestic troubles.

Even Buffy was a big soap opera a lot of the time! I enjoyed Buffy, but the melodrama factor (especially towards the end) was cranked pretty high. The writing was snappy enough to make up for it, usually, but there were times when it grated on me.

It's a fine line to be sure, because I really DO want to see something of the characters' personal lives; I adore the between-crisis moments and I really appreciate it when the writers of an action-oriented show allow the characters to have relationships and kids and hobbies. But what I want is an action show spiced with comedy and angst and, where appropriate, romance. What I DON'T want is a soap opera where they sometimes shoot at stuff. If I wanted that, I'd just watch a soap opera in the first place! (Which I did, once upon a time. For years. But that's neither here nor there -- and I was there for the guys, anyway!)

And you're absolutely right that the storylines involving female characters tend to be heavier on the soap opera elements than the guys' story arcs. I'm not sure if it's because of the writers injecting that sort of material because they think women want to see it, or because on some deep-down level it's the first kind of story that tends to pop into their heads when they think about storylines for female characters. But action, mystery, and SF plots ought to be completely unisex, if the writers would let them be so.

And I think it comes from being told--and I was told this too in my one writing class--that men can't write women and women can't write men, because they're too "different".

Such terrible advice! But it doesn't help that so many men (and women!) are bad at writing the opposite sex, or else don't even try. Like a lot of stereotypes, there's an undercurrent of truth to it that ends up being self-reinforcing.

Part of this is - when is the last time you saw a SF show that had a strong relationship between two women (heck, when's the last time you saw any show with a major female-female relationship??) It's hard to stick to gen when you're writing male-female relationships, because totally platonic m-f is pretty much unheard of on TV (and for that matter in real life; even long-time friends usually dealt with the issue at one time or another. The main exceptions are sibling/family relationships, and friendships in which one or both parties are in a committed relationship with someone else, and/or gay. And committed relationships and gay chars are also something of nonexistent in SF/action/most TV...)

That's actually one advantage of slash, because if the fic'ers remember the female chars exist, they tend to be platonic friends, with the sexual attraction being between the boys. But female-female relationships are still almost unheard of in most fandoms, gen or femmeslash. It's partly fangirl tastes but it's partly because such relationships are hardly ever an emphasis in canon (SG-1 had Carter and Janet Frasier's friendship, but that was never focused on in an ep, that I recall; a lot of other shows - like Farscape or Firefly - have more than one female character, and strong interesting chars, too...but no particular relationships between the women, at least nothing as strong as their relationships with the men.)

...I suspect that some of this is that male writers either have no interest in female friendship, or more likely have no idea how female friendship works (guessing so because I've also seen it done, but really badly...Smallville's Lana and Chloe are supposedly best friends, but I end up seeing femmeslash there because otherwise their relationship makes no sense.) "Well...women like to talk a lot, right? What do they talk about? Oh, you know...their hair and nails, and what boy they like...something like that?"

(one of the reasons I got into shoujo manga was because - having had little interest in Babysitter Club type jr high/HS drama novels - it was one of the first times I read convincing female friendship...but then, shoujo is pretty much entirely written by women, so... It's interesting, though, because I know of several guys who really enjoy shoujo, and it's partly because that look into the female psyche/female relationships fascinates them, as much as we women like watching male-written shows about manly men being boys with each other...)

...and now I'm going to go take a nap, because I did not get enough sleep, hence my general incoherency ^^;

Part of this is - when is the last time you saw a SF show that had a strong relationship between two women (heck, when's the last time you saw any show with a major female-female relationship??)

Oh my -- that's a really fantastic observation, because ... wow, you're right! I can definitely think of shows (including both Stargates) with implied friendships between the women, relationships that are briefly seen in a few episodes. But front-and-center, in the way of the relationships between the guys ... wow, I can't think of many, and in the straight-up, action and SF shows (as opposed to more genre-defying shows like Buffy) they're pretty much non-existent.

Wow. I don't think that it had ever hit me just how rare it is. Buffy, in fact, is almost alone, with several different, strong, front-and-center relationships between female characters. And yet, then there was Firefly --and while there were almost as many women as men in the main cast (I was just talking to Naye about that a few days ago, in fact!), and interesting women too, did ANY of them even have one-on-one scenes together, let alone having unique and individual relationships with each other? Every single notable character relationship that I can think of on the show was either between two guys, or a man and a woman -- there *were* a couple of interesting platonic male-female dynamics (Zoe and Mal, River and Jayne), which is rare enough, but what about the girls going off by themselves?

...I suspect that some of this is that male writers either have no interest in female friendship, or more likely have no idea how female friendship works

Heh. Yeah. I'm not sure what's worse, when they don't try at all, or when they do it badly -- well, I suppose not trying at all is worse, because even when it's screwed up there's still a relationship THERE, but sometimes it just jumps out at you that they're obviously floundering around with no idea of what they're doing. (For the record, though, I'm sure that your average guy would be equally horrified at the average female fanfic writer's idea of what "male bonding" entails!)

... and come to think of it, as my icon references, Stargate SG-1 did actually take a stab at developing a female friendship in its last season (Sam and Claudia Black's character, Vala). But there, again, they just didn't get too many scenes together, and in one episode I can think of, where the writers actually tried to do their idea of "girl bonding" over clothes and such, it seemed vaguely OOC for both characters.

I know of several guys who really enjoy shoujo, and it's partly because that look into the female psyche/female relationships fascinates them, as much as we women like watching male-written shows about manly men being boys with each other...

Oh, that's really interesting, actually! I wonder how common that is? I know that guy friendships are attractive to me in part because they're a little bit alien; the thought hadn't really occurred to me that guys might be equally drawn to women's friendships for the same reason.

It's something that's bothered me on and off for a while. When I was first getting into h/c (--I mean, when I discovered it was a genre, not when I found I liked it, that I'd known forever ^^) I and especially my sister were still young enough to want girl chars, and were a bit disappointed that female-female h/c is so rare. We tried writing an original story with it, that I recall (...a telepath and her TK bodyguard...hmmm, it was rather slashy now that I recall...) There was this one ST:TOS novel that featured original chars who were basically Kirk & Spock done as young women (a flirtatious Terran and a too-serious Vulcan) who got kidnapped and tortured...massive amounts of intense female bonding and h/c. I remember loving the book, but...haven't seen much of its like since.

Firefly actually has more female relationships than most - Kaylee has a strong relationship with both Inara and River (I'm fairly sure she had scenes with both of them alone?), and River and Inara have a strange relationship too, as I recall. But it's definitely far from the norm. Sometimes when there's just not that many female chars, it makes sense...but then you have the new BSG, with all these strong female chars, but none of them bond with each other (then again, BSG has this weird fear of homosocial relationships anyway, almost all the major relationships are male-female, the men don't do much bonding either. It's odd.)

Oh, women definitely can have trouble with realistic male-male friendshp! But I think the difference maybe is that we're aware of it, we're doing it for our own fun...and we've got lots of examples of male-written friendship to follow. But "girl bonding" to many male writers involves shopping or painting nails and not much else. Umm...not always. Or at all, if you're me...but while I'm not very girly, and I can make friends with guys, my closest friends tend to be female.

It's odd but actually animanga does better on the female-female front, not just the shoujo - in a lot of shounen, the girls come in pairs or groups. This is partly, I think, because Japan can be pretty sexist, and I think they have the idea that maybe close friendships can't be formed between men & women...but there is a truth that we bond with our own gender...(one of the many things I love about One Piece's characters is that while Nami is great friends with all the boys, she forms special relationships with both Vivi and Robin...because that's what happens, the only two girls on a ship of boys might have rivalry in some areas, but they're going to bond, too.)(drove me N-U-T-S in Lost - none of the women got especially close, too busy bonding with the guys. And Claire was PREGNANT...she'd have been instinctively seeking out a 'midwife' basically, and most women would've been drawn to her, too...)

Oh, that's really interesting, actually! I wonder how common that is?

I personally knew at least two or three (straight) guys in my old anime club who far preferred shoujo to shounen, because they were interested in char relationships, and they particularly liked the girl-focused shoujo (As opposed to the ones with all the pretty bishounen running about.) Now some of this is that they found the girls attractive, but a lot of it was the female relationships. I know guys who liked Gilmore Girls for similar reasons (it was one of the reasons I liked GG myself.)

What's interesting to me about this is that I'd never, until just the last couple of years, really thought about that aspect of it, the gender balance in what I watch and read and write, with an eye towards possibly trying to "fix" it. I mean, I've always known that I gravitated towards male characters and male-male friendships, but my meta-ing was usually focused on the specifics of the relationship, or on the general dynamics that draw me, and not on gender specifically. When I thought about gender at all, I'd just assumed that my specifically male-oriented interest was something inherent to them being men -- either that there was a sexual draw to it, or that men form different sorts of friendships than women and that was what the attraction was. In any case, I never remember thinking "I ought to try to write women a little more" or "I think I'd like to find a fictional female-female friendship to enjoy, even though I haven't really in the past" until, actually, just the last few months.

It's possible that staying in one fandom for a long time has helped push me in this direction, because I've been in SGA fandom for what is, for me, quite awhile (going on two years now, I think) -- long enough to have seen the male characters, who were what initially drew me to the show, in every conceivable perilous situation, both in fic and on the actual show itself ... which is starting to make me think, "Hmm, what else could I do with them? Where else could I take this?" I've spent so much time exploring one particular male character dynamic that I'm really wanting to do something different ... and so I'm suddenly running up against the dearth of interesting women and, more importantly, interesting platonic relationships involving women on the show. Or any of the shows I'm currently watching, with the possible exception of Doctor Who (but I don't really want to *write* about them).

Thinking about, and occasionally writing, h/c involving women has made me acutely aware that there are all kinds of power-dynamic problems that you run into when one or both of the people involved are women, also. Just as one of the draws to slash for a lot of women (I suspect) is that it frees them from being weighed down with all the baggage of thousands of years of funky thought regarding marriage and sex and gender -- so, having two men in a perilous situation, rather than a woman and a man or two women, means that you don't have to think about any of that squee-flattening stuff. Obviously, you aren't *obligated* to think about it in any case, but sci-fi (and comics, and anime) is so rife with really squick-inducing scenarios involving women in bondage and peril that there's a little voice in the back of my head that starts freaking out when I try playing some of my favorite h/c scenarios with women. Guys kidnapped/hurt/shot/tortured works great for me. Women, not so much -- or, at least, I keep having to stop and think about it. It isn't that I'm worried about offending my readers; I'm worried about offending *me*.

Yes! It so is! LOL! And I started reading your story on Psychfic (the one with the six degrees of separation) and it's not done! Agony! It's gorgeous so far though! I particularly love Lassiter's POV--it's just so perfectly *him*.

Hee, thank you - I'm so glad you're enjoying it! Will have to get to work on the next chapter of that one...

I still haven't had a chance to start on the other ones, but I couldn't help laughing to see you had a hypothermia fic in there! You do have one in every fandom, don't you? *grin* Not that I'm complaining, of course ...

Not...every fandom! Just...um...the ones which don't have hypothermia fic already. Because every fandom needs at least one trapped-on-a-snowy-mountainside fic! ^^;

gnine demands it!

that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

(...I really badly need a good h/c icon...)

(...I really badly need a good h/c icon...)

Keep watching SGA, you'll have lots of opportunities to make one. *grin*

*staring at icon. again, because I've stared at this one before I even started watching SGA, but now I know it's Sheppard...*
...I haven't seen that icon yet in the show. I know because I keep noticing when I see your &

naye's icons (I may be on lj too much), and I most definitely will notice when I see this one.
*stares at it some more*

Ahh, but it's not Sheppard! And yet people think it is. Even people who have seen the episode think it is, and ask me when something like this ever happened to Sheppard ... but it's not him. Which makes it the perfect h/c icon for me! Two boys for the price of one. ^_^

I'm looking forward to any Ronon and John friendship fics you compile for your list of rec's...here's hoping for something I have not seen :-D

On the Mcshep match stuff..have any rec's of the h/c variety thats not too slash heavy or focused? I don't mind mild slash as long as its not all gooey and silly, and not the focus of the fic...and I trust your judgement in terms of the stuff I like to read :-P

Heh ... I think at this point, the only John/Ronon stories I have on my list are ... yours! But I'll keep my eyes open -- there are a bunch of stories I want to track down to rec that I don't have links for (yet).

On the McShep ones, you might give both the ones I've linked above a try -- "Rock Paper (No Scissors)" has no graphical content and is basically a story about John and Rodney passing notes in prison, while John's on a chain gang; the sexual attraction subtext is an ever-present thread in the story, but it's more about them surviving and escaping. The other is another "John and Rodney in prison" story, and while it DOES have a graphic sex scene, the story as a whole is consistent with a gen perspective on the characters -- I can't really say *why* without giving away important plot twists, though.

I have a couple Ronon and John fics I can add to the list, but it'll be later tonight, have a busy day ahead. Funny thing ...my very first short one shot was a flash fic challenge and it was a Ronon and Shep fic...lol

I'll def take a look at your Rodney and Shep recs and read some this week.....thanks!!

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Some recs for various stuff

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