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Finished with Doctor Who Season 1
I loved the finale. What can I say ... I have this huge sappy weakness for "last stand" stories. Even if the Daleks STILL remind me more of giant salt shakers than something you'd run away from. (Being attacked by an army of shoulder-high, heavily armed salt shakers is nothing to sneeze at, though.) And Jack in Rambo mode, and the Doctor sending Rose home in the Tardis, and the origins of Bad Wolf ... much love, yes. Even if it's really, really best NOT to think about the time travel too much.
However, I'm starting to have, well ... problems with the way that the Doctor and Rose behave towards the people around them. Rose and the Doctor aren't bad people, but they're not particularly nice people -- it's not that they're deliberately cruel, but they just don't bother to care. Like leaving Jack behind on the space station (not that, I gather, it's a big deal to him or that he even minds; but it's the principle of the thing, dammit -- abandoning your allies on a space station full of dead people in a dead solar system is very bad form) or the way Rose has been treating Mickey, especially given how often he goes out of his way to help her.
Rose and the Doctor are very committed to high ideals -- saving the universe, that sort of thing -- but when it comes to the little, day-to-day things, like, say, behaving like decent human beings towards other people (aside from each other), they fail at it. Whereas, someone like Mickey, or Rose's mother, could care less about the fate of the universe -- what they do instead is protect and help the people they care about. It's a lot easier for me to sympathize with Mickey defending Rose's mom with a bat than to sympathize with Rose exploiting her boyfriend's affection for her in order to obtain his help chasing after the Doctor.
With the exception of each other, they're far more committed to their ideals than to the welfare of individual human beings. It seems like they're willing to give the people around them just enough information and assistance to really get them in trouble, and then turn them loose to fend for themselves -- like taking Rose's genius boy-toy from the museum to the year 200,000 and then abandoning him in an alien environment that he knows nothing about to sink or swim. I realize that the people around them are adults and are responsible for their own decisions, but at some point you *do* have responsibility for the effects of your actions on other people; it's not enough to fall back on the "Well, I know I talked him into it, but it's not my fault he said yes" defense. It's almost like they're little kids playing with toys -- getting what they want out of other people, but failing to notice the effects of their actions on anyone else.
They're willing to sacrifice themselves to save the universe, or apparently each other, but when it comes to anything beyond that, they're kind of self-centered, aren't they?
And sometimes they aren't even willing to take the saving-the-universe step, like the Doctor refusing to push the button to destroy the Daleks. Okay, I understand that he doesn't want to become like them -- that it's a violation of everything he believes in. But, at this point, he's not saving anyone but himself -- he's sacrificing the universe on the altar of his own conscience. The Earth is dead, everyone on the space station is dead; if he activated the device, all he'd be killing would be the Daleks (and himself). By pushing the button, he saves the universe; the only thing he stands to gain by not pushing the button is to keep his hands clean, at the cost of countless lives. Violating his own ideals to save the universe would be a tremendous sacrifice, but it's a sacrifice he wasn't willing to make; he chose himself and his own conscience over the lives of countless innocents.
Luckily Rose took the choice out of his hands, so there were no consequences for his failure to act. Convenient, that.
The ultimate problem here is that I'm finding it harder to empathize with the characters the more I see of them. I can't quite seem to sink into full appreciation of their devotion to each other when that devotion is generally at the expense of everyone else. Jack's comment about saving Rose, that "she's worth it" -- er, I'm not really sure that she is, actually, given that she's done very little lately except for single-mindedly pursuing the Doctor through time and stepping on whoever she has to in order to do that.
My, this has turned into a wee bit of a rant. ^_^ I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the Tennant episodes -- it's just that I'm having trouble right now emotionally engaging with the characters, because more and more they're turning out to be people I feel slightly skeevy empathizing with.
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He can care globally/galactically/universally, he can fight for the future of the human race. But caring for individuals...if he cares too deeply for all the people he meets in his travels, he'd snap in a matter of days. He can risk having a few companions, a few people he can protect personally, and will do anything for, to stave off loneliness. But people die around him, a lot, and he couldn't save all of them no matter what he did...I don't think he can avoid that; he or the TARDIS is drawn to trouble, and trouble follows him (much of it not really his fault so much as the fault of being what he is). He does what he can to help, but... His emotional distance is the distance of an ER doctor in a constant state of emergency, always in triage mode, care for who can be cared for, savor your victories, and don't look too closely at who you're losing. In the Ninth Doctor I think this trait is magnified, because the war is so very much still in his memory; he's trying to escape, trying to run about having fun, but every time things go south - as they always do - he's on the battlefield again.
I find the Doctor fascinating because he is capable of such compassion, and yet can be so cold, so seemingly unfeeling. He loves the human race absolutely and yet gets so frustrated with humans. He'll fight to his last breath to save life, but he's not nearly as affected by death as one would expect him to be. (and I love the way the show keeps returning to these themes. The Doctor's the hero, but he's far from perfect...and I rather love him for it...)
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Addendum to a specific point - I agree he does seem to genuinely enjoy himself and when I spoke of his light-heartedness being forced that was probably not the best word.. I think what I meant was probably deliberate. Not so much that he is forcing himself to have fun and enjoy things, more that he has made a choice to have fun and enjoy himself and not dwell on things if he can avoid it.
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And oh, yes! I think I get what you mean about the light-heartedness, and I agree, it is a conscious decision on his part. And I think the Ninth Doctor was forcing it; the Tenth's pleasure seems more genuine to me. Or, not more genuine, but less haunted; he's not having to try so hard.
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The more that I look at him that way, the more comprehensible he becomes to me -- because to him, people die *constantly*, and since he sees mainly the big picture and has armored himself against the pain and grief of it, then it's not at all surprising that he'd think nothing of a small-scale abandonment or betrayal; it's barely a blip on the radar of what he deals with all the time.
This is why I love meta, because I'm seeing a lot in the character that I didn't see just yesterday, and seeing him much more positively too. Still not that crazy about Rose's skeevier moral decisions, though. ^_^
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...Errr, yes, obviously I really, really like metaing about this show & the Doctor - thank you so much for giving me the excuse to do so!
(also...what decisions of Rose's so disturb you, exactly? I'm curious because I rather liked her as a char, without thinking about it much; neither the show nor the char ever put me off the way it's put you off, and I'm having trouble remembering specific incidents...)
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I think what's really putting me off about her -- and I'm just thinking this through as I type -- is that she's been portrayed on the show as fairly immature and selfish, which is not by itself a problem, but within the show I keep feeling as if she's being put on a pedastal by the other characters and that she hasn't earned it. That's what bothers me. It's the divide between what the show seems to be telling me about Rose (which is that she's an awesome, self-sacrificing person who is worth going to the ends of the universe for) and what it's showing me, which is that she's a self-centered teenager who acts impulsively and hurts the people around her.
There's almost a "Mary Sue" quality to her, in that everyone who meets her desires her and can't seem to see her flaws, and her selfish or harmful actions (like cheating on Mickey, but expecting him to wait for her; like nearly destroying the human race by messing with her own past) are forgiven and forgotten by the other characters. I think all I want is for the show to just acknowledge her selfishness every once in a while, rather than showing it but having the others continue to treat her like she's all that and a bag of chips. (And she's certainly not the only fictional character that I've had that reaction to; I'm deeply resentful of shows telling me that [x] character is really fantastic at doing something, and having all the others react to them as if they were, while showing the complete opposite. Bugs the hell out of me.)
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And she does try to do the right thing, always (...and I'm trying to think of examples but am only coming up with 2nd season ones. Though that could be because I've seen it more) and I don't see her mistakes as being completely ignored. There are only four people in the series who really know Rose well enough to have seen her flaws - the Doctor, Jack, Mickey, and Jackie. The Doctor has his own reasons for adoring her. Jack...to Jack I think she's an adjunct to the Doctor, to be honest, and what Jack feels for the Doctor...is an epic in itself. And Mickey and Jackie don't think Rose is perfect. Mickey's mad in love with her so not likely to call her on it, but he knows - and Jackie does call her on it, does question what Rose is doing.
Mickey and Jackie are also the people she treats worse (is there anyone else she really treats badly? except maybe that git she picked up in "Dalek" but, well...he is a git...) but that's par for the course for a teenager on the cusp of adulthood. The trouble Rose has with them is that she takes them for granted, thinking they'll always be there for her, because they always have been. And she does start to learn otherwise...
(I also have a hard time holding "Father's Day" against her. Because yeah, nearly destroys the human race, but the Doctor isn't exactly clear in his warnings, and also, someone who can just stand by and watch their own father die, when they could stop it? I don't know if that's a person I could empathize with at all. I hold the Doctor responsible for that one, he really ought to have known better!)
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LOL! You know, I'm really supposed to be doing other things than meta-ing about Doctor Who myself. heeelllllp...
I guess it never bothered me with Rose because I didn't get that 'pedestal' feeling from her. Or rather, when I did get it, it made sense.
It does make sense ... but ... it still doesn't feel balanced to me. I don't know, it may be that it IS just me, but I keep feeling like the other characters' reactions are more skewed in a pro-Rose direction than they really ought to be, considering her behavior.
And now I'll bring up "Dead Like Me" again *g* because as far as "right" ways to address this sort of situation, I really liked the way that DLM did it, as opposed to being kind of ambivalent about the way DW is doing it. The thing about "Dead Like Me" is that, as with Rose, there was never any doubt that the other characters cared a lot about George (the teenage main character), but there was also no doubt, in the context of the show, that her immaturity put them at risk and put her relationships with them at risk -- and that, if they loved her, they couldn't let her get away with it. It's sort of hard to describe in more detail without spoiling the whole show, but there was one whole arc which dealt with her accidentally creating a rift between herself and the person on the show she was closest to -- kind of an older mentor/younger protege relationship like the one Rose has going with the Doctor. In that case, George felt smothered by his "fathering" her, and she reacted by being very petty and pushing him away. And his reaction to that was enough hurt and anger that he just pulled back completely, leaving her bereft. This was followed by several episodes of George basically flailing around in shock, because she'd always just kind of assumed that he'd be there for her no matter what, and then she took him for granted one too many times and suddenly, he wasn't.
What I'm feeling with DW is that Rose just isn't *seeing* the consequences of her immaturity and that the show itself is not giving her a chance to do so. "Father's Day" is, honestly, a good example of the opposite, because in that episode she does discover the extreme downside of acting impulsively and taking the Doctor for granted -- even though at the end, things are basically put back like they were before, and it doesn't really seem like she's learned anything from the experience (except, obviously, that messing with the space-time continuum is Bad). And yes, I do agree with you that I can totally sympathize with her wanting to save her father. I'm not unsympathetic towards Rose; I just sometimes feel that the show is a little TOO sympathetic towards her.
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The thing is, I guess, with Rose, is that while she has moments of self-centeredness, I never found them to be such a major flaw in her character that it made her unsympathetic. I guess...I can see the point of learning such lessons, but I didn't think that the show needed to dwell on them, because I didn't find Rose so terribly selfish as to be off-putting. Such as with Mickey - he's the one who leaves her, the second time around; she and the Doctor give him the chance to come along, and he turns it down. Later when she's bothered by the idea of him dating someone else, I didn't read that as her hypocritically accusing him of cheating, but rather that she's upset by the idea of things changing at home, the same discomfort everyone faces when they grow up and leave home and find that they can't go back again. And I liked the way she and the boys welcomed Mickey into their circle as best they could. (And for that matter, it's Mickey who proposes cheating with his current girl to go off with Rose to a hotel... Rose uses him, but Mickey completely lets himself be used.)
She loves the Doctor, and sometimes she can get carried away with that, but I didn't get that feeling that she only cares for him to the exclusion of anyone else. Rose can be so caring of people (and others) she barely knows - she's got a lot of the basic heroic nature in her: protect the weak, help out those in need, give sympathy. With Gwenyth, with Harriet Jones, with the lone Dalek - she's more willing to open her heart than the Doctor, and sometimes it gets her into trouble, but it's worth it...
(wow why I am still awake? must...turn...off...brain!)
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You're definitely right that Mickey's no paragon of virtue himself, by any means. But ... I dunno, I feel like the show acknowledges that a lot more than it dwells on Rose's equally glaring flaws.
And I'd forgotten about her with the Dalek. Bear in mind, too, that I'm only just now working through my opinions on the characters and figuring out who they are. It took me half a season to start liking Dean on SPN, and then I fell for him like the proverbial ton of bricks.
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Ahhh, yes, really am sorry to just go off on you like this - part of it is I haven't really gotten involved in the fandom as a whole (Who-fandom is scaaaary!) and so while I've seen debates, I haven't joined them...but I've been tempted to, and then with you, I know I can have a genuinely friendly debate, and I do enjoy those much, so...I go off! ^^;;
And also, with Rose, there's only so much time to like her, much less than you get to see of Dean, so...(I honestly didn't realize I was so defensive of the char...this show's infected me! Beware the Who-virus!)
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But, as I said in my last comment, the thing that's the most off-putting to me about her is that I don't feel as if the show is allowing the other characters to recognize her selfishness, and that bugs me.
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I think most of my viewpoint on Rose being selfish and immature does have to do with the way she interacts with the people she cares about (Mickey, her mom, Jack, even the Doctor at times). She actually seems more "giving" with people she doesn't really know -- like the Dalek, or going after the little boy on the roof. She'll throw herself into danger to protect a stranger's life, but doesn't seem to extend the same mentality to looking after people that she loves. I can't really explain it to my own satisfaction, actually, unless it's just that she's very young and is still working on the transition from being the one who is looked after, to the one who looks after people.
She gives him a human connection; he has trouble relating to humans at all, trouble even explaining things in a way a normal person can understand (especially when he's been alone for a while, judging by what you see of him after he's been by himself; look at how wacked he is in the first ep!)
See, that's how I saw her at first, but now I'm not sure if she's influencing him so much as he's influencing her. In some ways, it's for the good -- she's getting a lot more concerned with the big picture, fate-of-the-universe type of things, and that's good, even if it's put her in a place where she can't relate so well to the people she used to be close to. But I think that she's also picking up on some of the Doctor's attitudes in a fairly negative way. Have you read the Discworld books? One scene in there that's really stuck with me is Carrot's "Personal is not the same thing as important", and the aftermath of that scene in which Vimes reflects that a good man who truly believes that is more dangerous than an evil man (or something along those lines). I kept thinking of that scene while watching the finale, because it seems like that is very much how the Doctor lives his life -- with one glaring exception, Rose herself -- and that she's picking that up from him, but at the same time losing sight of what makes her human.
This is fun. *g* And of course I don't mind you defending the character; it's always interesting to get my thought processes in order and, sometimes, to reassess my own attitudes if I just don't have the evidence to support them!
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Hmmm...well, Rose didn't leave Jack on Satellite 5; that was all the Doctor's doing and in the little 'Barcelona' special he sorta lies to her about it (Rose doesn't seem to remember anything that happened during her stint as the Bad Wolf, and the Doctor wants to keep it that way...) The way she treats Mickey and her mother...I don't see it as that terrible. The worst thing she does to them is say 'see you later' when they know she's going into terrible danger - but she's young enough that she really has no good concept of her own mortality; she doesn't think she can die, not with the Doctor, so why should they worry? And she'd have to tell them goodbye anyway, if she ever wanted to live a real life. That's just what growing up is.
For me, with Rose, there's few times I can think of that I really think, "Wow, she shouldn't have done that, she should have done this instead." And most of those are when she's dealing with her mother, and, well, girl leaving home with her mum, and Jackie's not exactly the most understanding sort, bound to be friction there. She's gone for 12 months and didn't call; but she did think of her mother, it's just that the TARDIS screwed that up a bit! And being able to apologize to your mother about something like that, realizing your mother's real fears about you and separating them from the clinging parents sometimes do when their only child is leaving them for the first time - there's definitely maturity required there, and Rose doesn't have it yet. But it doesn't bother me because she has so much caring and compassion in her, I was pretty much assuming she would grow into it naturally.
Mickey is older than her; Jackie's her mother. Rose has always been cared for by them. And the Doctor and Jack are both older and vastly more experienced in seemingly everything. So Rose, with them, still feels like a child, depends on them as a child does, and tends to regard them from a child's naturally self-centered angle. And all of them encourage this, in their ways; Jackie doesn't want her little girl growing up so fast, and the Doctor likes the admiration, etc. But I think it's something Rose is outgrowing on her own. And I don't think she takes them completely for granted; she does things like invite Mickey along, and buy souvenirs for her mother - she thinks of them, she's trying to make them part of her new life.
"Personal is not the same thing as important", and the aftermath of that scene in which Vimes reflects that a good man who truly believes that is more dangerous than an evil man (or something along those lines).
Ahh, I've only read a scattering of DW - er, DiscWorld! mass abbreviation conflict, Cap'n, the engines are failing! - so don't know this bit...what exactly is his meaning? Someone who's putting their personal emotions above doing the right thing? Because the Doctor can do that, as most people will, but I don't think he does it easily...he can only certainly protect so many people. Nearly everyone he gets close to in his travels he invites along on the TARDIS; Rose is one of the only ones to accept the invitation, but he innvites lots. And I think it's because he sees so much death, anyone he starts to care about, he wants to protect, and keeping them with him is the only way...
--or does it mean the opposite, that you should put personal caring above the grander goal? Because the Doctor does have such great compassion. He's not great with emotions, not gentle with people's feelings. And he doesn't let death affect him. But he loves any and all life; he'd never sacrifice any innocent life, not if there's any way he can stop it (guilty life...that's another discussion.) The Doctor is not 'ends justifies means,' very much not, to the point that he's unwilling to use the anti-plastic even at the last resort; he risks all to keep Pete Tyler alive (and that's not just for Rose's sake, I don't believe); he gives up Rose to keep his promise to her mother; bringing himself to kill the lone Dalek, even after all it and its species did, almost shatters him; and he can't commit a second genocide even for the sake of the universe...
--This is too much fun! But I'll stop now, get to back to non-Who things~ XD
The LJ comment limit is not my friend
*snicker* Hey, it's your life, after all!
The way she treats Mickey and her mother...I don't see it as that terrible. The worst thing she does to them is say 'see you later' when they know she's going into terrible danger
Ehhh ... I see the way she treats Mickey as quite a bit worse than that. She basically doesn't let him go, putting him in the position where he'd have to be the one to leave HER -- and, infatuated as he is, he's not willing to do that. Yes, she goes off with the Doctor (repeatedly), but with the clear expectation that she thinks he'll put his life on hold to wait for her. Even when she leaves at the start of the 2nd season (we just watched the first 2 eps of that tonight), she kisses him goodbye in a boyfriend-girlfriend kind of way. When she needs something from him, she doesn't hesitate to call -- but when he asks for any kind of commitment from her, she doesn't give it. She turns to him for comfort, but when he's feeling insecure about himself, she doesn't offer any kind of comfort back -- e.g. in the Season 2 premiere, when he tells her, "You really love him, don't you" and she just turns away. "I may not come back; you're free; move on with your life" may just be a formality, but she's never offered him that; and in fact her reaction to finding out that he's seeing someone else definitely indicates, to me, that she expects him to simply wait for her. I really loved the Season 2 premiere (and I'm liking the new Doctor quite a lot), but it *still* bothers me that she doesn't seem to reciprocate the comfort, support and help that Mickey offers her.
In fact, of all of it, it's her treatment of Mickey that bothers me the most. Yes, she's young and immature and doesn't have a really good grasp on the quid-pro-quo of human relationships yet; I understand that. But she just doesn't *ever* seem to grasp that she's doing him a disservice by behaving the way that she does towards him. And, yes, they did offer him the chance to come along, and he did decline -- but it's obvious that some people aren't temperamentally suited for time travel (e.g. Genius Boy, the ill-fated boyfriend from the museum), and it's likely that he wouldn't have fared too well if he *had* come along.
I definitely thing that Rose is doing the right thing by doing what she wants to do and traveling with the Doctor, certainly. She's got to live her life. But part of growing up is learning to live your own life while still keeping up with your responsibilities towards people who love you and depend on you (a theme which Supernatural has spent a lot of time developing). She's got a friggin' time machine; all she has to say is, "I'll be back day after tomorrow at 1:30 p.m. if I'm still alive; see you then and we'll have lunch." She could be gone for YEARS and still come back at a set time and place. The only time she's ever done that on the show was the "back in ten seconds" thing near the beginning and, well, she didn't. She's been doing a little better lately; I liked the Christmas episode. But, still, her "see you guys in five minutes or fifty years, I don't know which, but you'll be waiting for me when I get back, right?" attitude leaves me feeling uncomfortable.
well, Rose didn't leave Jack on Satellite 5; that was all the Doctor's doing and in the little 'Barcelona' special he sorta lies to her about it
I didn't really get that from "Barcelona", which we just watched -- she says "Let's go back and find Captain Jack", so she definitely knows that he's alive and back where they came from. I mean, I'm not saying that she's kicking Jack's dying body off a ledge here, and she's got other things to keep her busy, plus the Doctor doesn't seem concerned (he just tells her Jack's busy) so she's picking up that from him. There are extenuating circumstances. But it's still very obvious that Jack is NOT in her "risk everything to save them" circle of people, and her mother and Mickey sort of waver in and out of that category. The only person she really, consistently worries about and tries to protect is the Doctor. Which is touching, yes, and sweet, but also kind of codependent and maybe a bit unhealthy, since she doesn't act that way towards anyone else.
Re: The LJ comment limit is not my friend
I think the reason Rose's treatment of Mickey didn't bother me so much was because I wasn't very sympathetic to Mickey's position. Mickey is a couple years older than her, he should be the more mature one, but he isn't really doing anything with himself except following her around. He lets Rose walk over him, and yes, it's beause he's in love with her; but he's pathetic about it. He doesn't ever tell her off, doesn't ever tell her she has to choose. I saw a lot of the problems with the Rose/Mickey dynamic as being Mickey's flaws at least as much as Rose's. If Mickey had just gotten on with his life, had told her firmly "I'm seeing someone else now, sorry," as he had a right to do, then that would be one thing. But Mickey suggests a hotel room like they're still together; he makes sure he always is there for Rose, runs from his new girlfriend and pushes himself forward to be taken advantage of, because he's trying to win her back (and that's a confusing issue right there, because the Doctor isn't exactly her boyfriend no matter what Mickey thinks, and the competition is pretty much impossible.) Mickey's at least as codependent on Rose as Rose is with the Doctor...
I also believe that Rose doesn't quite realize how deeply in love Mickey really is...I get the feeling they grew up almost like brother and sister, since they apparently knew each other since Rose was a baby. And you do have a tendency to take family for granted, because family always will be there...
As far as the rest goes - well, she's got a time machine, but she's got a time machine that's, errr, not exactly the most reliable piece of equipment in the universe. Twelve hours, twelve months...she really shouldn't make promises when she can't keep them!
But, still, her "see you guys in five minutes or fifty years, I don't know which, but you'll be waiting for me when I get back, right?" attitude leaves me feeling uncomfortable.
That's the thing, I guess...I don't think this is the right attitude to have, necessarily, but I can so understand it, it's just such a natural attitude, that I have trouble faulting Rose for it. If she kept this attitude for all her life, yeah...but she's young, and so enjoying herself, I guess I think that kids have a right to a couple years of selfishness, before taking on the responsibilities of maturity. The Doctor, yeah, he's another story. But Rose is young enough that it doesn't bother me to see her being immature.
And Jack...aside from the outer demands of the story, which called for the char to be put aside, I didn't get from Rose's "let's go back and find him" that she knew for certain he was alive and well, but she didn't quite have reason to think otherwise. Rose was sent back to Earth before anyone actually died, and doesn't remember returning - she doesn't know for sure that the Daleks actually managed to kill anyone, much less everyone. And the way the Doctor tells her "He's got things to do, rebuilding the Earth" - it's hurried but it certainly sounds like it might've been Jack's choice to stay. And then she's plunged right into another crisis with the Doctor's new regeneration, so...
(a lot of this is subjective, definitely, and I'm biased toward Rose, so... ^^;)
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Ahh, I've only read a scattering of DW - er, DiscWorld! mass abbreviation conflict, Cap'n, the engines are failing! - so don't know this bit...what exactly is his meaning?
Oh, sorry. "Personal is not the same thing as important" -- It's not exactly "the end justifies the means"; it's more like, doing the right thing is more important than acting on one's personal feelings -- or, in the specific context of that particular scene, obeying the law (and keeping to one's moral code) is more important than taking revenge for one's girlfriend getting killed. (And Vimes's opinion on the whole thing is that leaving personal feelings out of the equation entirely is more dangerous than leaving them in.)
It's not an exact parallel, and it's difficult right now to come up with specific instances of scenes that made me think of the Doctor that way -- that for him, the individual or the personal wasn't nearly as important as the bigger picture.
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