The Disambiguation Thread

[sholio]

This followed from a conversation with with_apostrophe, who pointed out (very aptly) that American fic writers don't tend to consider people from other countries when they throw cultural references into their stories. I was trying to figure out how to annotate mine in a way that wouldn't be obtrusive or annoying, and also trying to figure out just what needed to be annotated. What's obscure and what's well-known? Eventually I came up with this instead.

Here is where you post questions about my stories. It can be a reference that you didn't get, or something plotwise that didn't make sense, or why I made a particular story decision, or, heck, somewhere that I screwed up on technology or medicine or grammar. Remember:

- There are no stupid questions (no matter what Rodney McKay might claim).

- Questions that are critical of my stories are fine. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I minded being asked about something.

Ready ... set ... ask!

(Note: The word disambiguation is snurched from Wikipedia.)

Comments

[angw.livejournal.com]

I find that it is hard to put cultural references into a story unless you have researched it or have first hand knowledge. When reading, unless I had prior knowledge or someone translated, I wouldn't even know any difference. And that goes for medical and technological. I trust the logic if it seems logical to me.

As for writing American and Canadianism's I find the spelling amusing. American-english and NZ-english is completely different. And when you have Canadian-American beta's you get the prodding about the spelling. I mean if you are writing a fic based in America you should really spell the words American? For me colour and blonde are a few differences.

Obviously the sayings - (I'd never heard 'hell in a hand basket' but it kept popping up in a lot of fics) is also something that gets lost if you aren't a local.

As for your stories unless I go back and reread them (which I do every once in a while) I can not think of anything offhand that confused me or gave me reason to question it.

[sholio]

Personally I'm not bothered by British/Aussie/NZ spellings for words in fic, even if the viewpoint character is American. I mean, it's true that John probably wouldn't be thinking "colour" but I don't mind reading it. I tend to think of that as being a function of the writer, not the characters; I'm used to books written and published in Britain using the British spellings (understandably enough) even if they're not taking place *in* Britain, if that makes any sense...

[ghostgum]

I agree with that. I mean, I'm Australian and so I spell like an Australian (well, I try to, my spelling sucks, lol). It's the words themselves that make a difference - I mean, if I'm writing in Cameron Mitchell's head, so to speak, then he oughtn't be thinking about his ute because an American just wouldn't (insert pick-up, or truck, or whatever, in the place of ute...) And obvious stuff like 'Mom' versus 'Mum' of course...

Which is probably why I made my OC Australian. Call it patriotism if you want, it's probably just laziness... *grins*

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

These are not in one of your stories as far as I'm aware, and like Ang, I don't recall any off-hand, but what are "Smores" and what are "Snickerdoodles". 'Cause the first sounds like someone's trying out the famous line from "Oliver Twist" and slurring the words together, and the second sounds like someone scribbling on a chocolate bar. They turn up regularly in SGA fic.

[sholio]

Snickerdoodles are sugar cookies with cinnamon and sugar sprinkles. They're not actually that common in real life -- either that, or they're regional and I happen not to be in a region that does that; I've heard of them and had one once or twice, but we didn't make them when I was a kid.

Smores are a campfire food. I blame the Boy/Girl Scouts for the ubiquity of this one, because pretty much *everyone* in the U.S. who has camped out has probably made them at some point, even though they're sort of nasty (IMHO). They consist of two graham crackers with a marshmallow and a couple squares of a Hershey chocolate bar sandwiched between them. Either the marshmallow or the chocolate is heated up beforehand so that the filling is all squooshy. I could totally see John teaching Teyla and Ronon to make smores, and Teyla thinking they were nasty and Ronon just giving up on the busywork and eating the entire bag of marshmallows...

[nebbyjen.livejournal.com]

Um.. ever try a s'more with Reese's peanut butter cups instead of chocolate bars? Yum! I can picture Shep teaching them the fine art of cooking marshmallows on a stick, Ronon setting his on fire and it falling into the flames.

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

Ah, thank you.

[wrinkled-fabric.livejournal.com]

If I could think of any of the top of my head... I just can't. I think I've learnt to just ignore cultural references simply because if I researched them (and I used to) then it takes longer to find the meaning of one sentence than to finish the entire story, heh.

It's really just words that make me look twice. For example, to me, when I'm writing fanfic Rodney or Peter would say 'ZPM' and John would say 'Zee-pm' before I realize that it would probably have any american readers confused and I have to alter it. I still stick to my roots when it comes to 'colour', 'programme' and the like.

You know, I haven't come across any fic-writers that actually think of us (thank you!)

[sholio]

*laughs* Well, like I said above, I don't mind the British spellings of words because you get that in books, so why not in fic? It's a matter of how the author spells things, not how the character spells things.

I keep wanting to write ZedPM and have to remind myself not to because that's going to be incomprehensible everywhere but the U.S.... At least there's a standard spelling for "Z" no matter how it's pronounced.

[tipper-green.livejournal.com]

I'm certainly guilty of putting in cultural references. I think it's very hard not to, especially since it's a source of conversation for Rodney and John so much in canon as well. Admittedly, I go for the nostalgic stuff (things I imagined they both watched as teenagers and in their twenties, as opposed to current day stuff) though. It's just hard to break a flow, once you've started. It's a bit like watching anything written by Joss Whedon--you just have to go for the ride.

Do I have any questions for you? No, I just felt like chiming in. Oh, and I like English spellings--I think all those extra "u's" are pretty. Harbour, Labour, Colour...And the "s" instead of a "z" is totally cool -- though I think Elizabeth Weir has to be Elizabeth, not Elisabeth, just because that's how she spells it. Oh, and saying "Left-tenant" instead of "Lieu-tenant" - so much better. There's just something incredibly romantic about "Left-tenant." I do prefer saying "sked-jewel" to "shedg-jewel" though for schedule...

[sholio]

Well, considering that the show itself is rife with cultural in-jokes, and we *know* both John and Rodney are gigantic geeks ... it's really impossible to write fic that doesn't throw cultural references around. And it wouldn't be true to the show *not* to. Part of what gives Stargate its unique feeling, I think, is the idea that these are just a bunch of your basic modern-day dorks out saving the galaxy, and you can't really get away from the fact that they're going to be talking about TV shows and comics and such. Hence this thread...

I think your stories (and mine) are probably lighter on the cultural references than some, because of the action-adventure nature of what we write; there's just much less time for bantering about comics when they're also running from the Wraith. *g*

[ga-unicorn.livejournal.com]

Okay, I have to confess I see no reason why you shouldn't have American cultural references when you are writing stories based on characters supposedly living in America, or where the majority of the characters are supposedly American. What is wrong with that? If the characters/setting is the UK or NZ or France or where ever then it is perfectly reasonable to assume there will be terms, products, etc that are not common in the US. I have lived, traveled and read enough to expect this. Frankly, I think it odd that there are those who are upset by it.

I have no problems with the spelling being British versus American; it's just a quirk of the language shift. There are some words that I spell one way and some I spell the other - causing my spellchecker to have a nervous breakdown. ;-)

[sholio]

Well, I don't think the issue is that people *shouldn't*; I totally agree with you -- if you're writing American characters (or British, or Russian, or whatnot) they're going to be referring to TV and celebrities and music and food that is familiar to them. That's how it should be, and part of what makes the story feel real. I think the issue is more that sometimes the references can be so thick that it's hard to understand the story -- that, or just wanting to know more about whatever is being referenced.

[drufan.livejournal.com]

Funny you have this discussion. I am so guilty of this. I even received a review saying as much. She had no clue what I was talking about but thought the chapter was funny!

Sometimes, I forget who's in the audience and geek out and get just too clever with myself. Definitely something to consider as I write. People should feel free to ask the author, I know I'd love to explain anything.

When I am referencing, I'm thinking of things my husband and I quote or things our friends remember. I'm in the same age group as John and Rodney, so it's not such a stretch to think of things. Yes, Gen X is in the house and coming to power.

[sholio]

*grin* Honestly, I don't think it's a problem at all as long as it's something that the characters would conceivably recognize. I mean, that's their *life*. I can totally see them geeking out about something and annoying everyone around them.

But it wasn't 'till with_apostrophe pointed it out to me, that I realized that I really ought to be explaining this stuff for people who want to know what all of the cultural references are.

[leesa_perrie]

I'm glad people don't mind British spellings too much - it's easier for me to leave them that way rather than to trust an American spell checker in MS Word (and I don't even trust it for the British spellings entirely!)

I do try to use American (or Canadian, or Scottish...) terms for the appropriate characters where I can (and have been known to do internet searches, and ask on the yahoo list I'm on when I can't find the answer myself) but I don't worry about it too much. I try to make sure people know that I'm British (in my profiles on whichever site they are reading my stuff) and hope that they can take that into account. I once had Rodney's parents not wanting to pay for his medical care as a kid, only to find out that Canada has it's own form of the NHS, so his parents wouldn't have had to pay!!! I changed it once it had been pointed out to me - so glad someone did).

I think if you are writing for an American character, you need to try and make the terms fit as much as possible, as I would hope people would do (and have done) for an English character (Grodin) or Scottish (Carson). But not being American, I make mistakes, and there have been mistakes made for the British characters, though not so common in Atlantis - you guys seem to get the hang of us pretty good on the whole! Though please note; not every British person drinks tea!!! (And not every Socttish person likes Scotch...!*bg*)

As for American references or terms, I look them up if they are really bothering me, or ask on the yahoo list, but usually I just don't worry about it too much. The sheep jokes that turn up for Carson made me scratch my head at first - to us Brits it's the Welsh not the Scottish who get the brunt of these jokes, but figured it was an American thing, and it's fun, so why worry?

I love that the TV show uses popular references, even if I suspect I might miss a few of them. And even if I haven't seen the film, I can get the drift - all I know about the Fab Four comes from Atlantis and various discussions in fandom about it! And I got the Castaway reference in Epiphany, even though I've never seen the film! And how does 'The Sixth Sense' end? No, don't answer - that's something I can have in common with Rodney!

Hmm, a lot of rambling - but basically, popular culture references are fine, but if you think someone outside your country might not get it, stick an author's note at the end for them - like I will do if I ever get around to Carson going all Scottish and using lots and lots of 'huh, what does he mean' words!!! (Which I will look up on a handy little translation site I found the other day...!*vbg*)

[sholio]

Oh darn it -- I thought I'd replied to this! *headdesk*

but basically, popular culture references are fine, but if you think someone outside your country might not get it, stick an author's note at the end for them

Well, hence this thread, really. Because I'm not always sure what might be too specific for non-Americans to get. Obviously a reference to the Nenana Ice Classic (a lottery in my state) would be something that no one but Alaskans would get (and the SGA characters wouldn't even know about). But I didn't know until with_apostrophe asked about it that s'mores were a specifically North American thing. I assume that Superman jokes are intelligible outside the country because the character's that well known, but what about a Dukes of Hazzard joke? In the end, I decided to do this thread in lieu of detailed explanations, unless I'm using something in a fic that's pivotal to the plot and that I know is too specific for a lot of people to understand.

[sholio]

Woops, missed this the first time around...

all I know about the Fab Four comes from Atlantis and various discussions in fandom about it!

The Fab Four are the Beatles, right? But aren't they British to begin with?

[ghostgum]

I had to laugh at your comment about the sheep jokes... to us (Aussies) they belong to New Zealanders...!! So I always have to blink when I see them in relation to Carson too...

[(Anonymous)]

Well I don't mind non-American spellings. What throws me is when authors use non-American terms especially in the character's speech.

Sam would not talk about her "Mum". She'd talk about her "Mom" and has on the show. Daniel wouldn't tell someone to point the "torch" over here. He'd ask about the flashlight. And if anyone told Jack that was a nice "jumper" he's wearing, I think he'd freak out since in the U.S. a jumper is a kind of dress and not a sweater.

Some I can get past, others throw me completely out of the story.

[sholio]

This isn't an all-purpose thread to complain about things other people do in fic. This thread is specifically for asking me questions about mine. Sorry if that was unclear.^^

Unless I *have* used Mum in a fic lately when it wasn't supposed to be there. In which case, it helps to point out a specific place that I did it!

[ghostgum]

Oh! The torch versus the flashlight. Gotta make a mental note of that one... I do try to behave myself - although the other day I got rapped over the knuckles in a review for having someone eat jelly instead of jello! As though that one isn't ingrained in the lore of stargate... I have no idea where my head was!

OT: questions about Americanisms of a different sort - okay, not so much about YOUR fic ;-P

[derry667.livejournal.com]

Children's playgrounds in the Western have all been made "safer" during and since my childhood. In Oz, you can only find "see-saws" with huge springs on them - not a good ol' plank on a simple fulcrum to be seen anywhere. Tragic IMHO. have people no respect for tradition? ;-P

And well, when I was a kid, some playgrounds used to have this thing that my brothers and I called a "roundabout" (before the driving kind of roundabout became popular - yes, that long ago!). It was like this big wooden wheel (on it's side) - maybe 2 metres diameter (but it's hard to recollect dimensions accurately when you yourself were so much smaller at the time). There were metal handles that you could hold on to - all run around holding them to spin the wheel or one person could stand stationary and push each handle as it came around while all the other (usually smaller) kids just rode the ride. Kinda like getting pushed on a swing but so much cooler. One of my brothers used to push the roundabout for the smaller kids - and it made him like the pied piper. Within 10 mins there were usually up to 10 or more little kids crammed on the thing while he pushed it.

But "roundabouts" were amongst the playground equipment that was "too dangerous" and I haven't seen one in a playground in Australia for at least 10 years.

So my question is (yes, I do have a question!) did American playgrounds ever have anything like that? If so what did you call them? And were they still around in the late 80s to early 90s?

(Coz yeah, I've got a vague idea for a "Wee!chester fic" that I'd like to use it. Just a vague idea, but not knowing and not knowing who to ask has been kinda bugging me.)

Re: OT: questions about Americanisms of a different sort - okay, not so much about YOUR fic ;-P

[sholio]

Ah yes, the good old days, back before they invented this "safety" thing, when playgrounds were actually FUN. *pounds walker on recycled rubber chips*

I know exactly what you're talking about, the big spinny wheels that would occasionally send smaller children flying off to god knows where. Those were awesome! We called them merry-go-rounds; I just checked with my husband to confirm, because merry-go-round (in the US, at least) is also another word for a carousel -- the carnival ride with the horses and lights. He remembers calling them that, too.

I'm not sure when they started to disappear, though. I definitely remember them from my childhood, along with the child-crushing (i.e. fun) variety of see-saw (which we called a teeter-totter more often than a see-saw). That would have been the early-to-mid 80s. By the time my brother got to be playground-age (late 80s/early 90s) I don't have any specific recollection of them, but it's possible that they could have been around -- I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention specifically.

I would imagine that if you set your story in a less urban area -- rural school districts would have less money to replace outdated playground equipment and/or less scrutiny from citizen watchdog groups -- it would be very plausible that the Winchesters could have played on such things.

Re: OT: questions about Americanisms of a different sort - okay, not so much about YOUR fic ;-P

[sholio]

Heh. I just looked them up on Wikipedia (took me a little while to find the page -- here it is -- and apparently there is a version that's used in African to pump water out of the ground! Kids spin it and pump water for the village; how cool is that?

My search also netted me this hilarious (to me) quote from the website of a playground equipment manufacturer:

"Today’s Playgrounds are not as simple as they use to be. In the good old days you could put a swing-set up and some type of spinning merry-go-round (that would launch a child to the moon), and just let the children play.

But today’s commercial playgrounds are highly engineered for fun yet with safety as priority #1. At Sun Country Systems, we take safety, fun & the imagination of a child and combine it with the best commercial playground systems the industry has to offer."

Sounds fun, all right... :D

Of course, "But we survived!" is probably not the best argument for the steel-and-concrete school of playground design...