Rambling about SGA and SG1

[sholio]

I re-watched the SG-1 episode Meridian last night -- for the first time since it originally aired, actually, since it was such a case of Trauma 'R Us for me the first time around.

One of my recent SGA posts ultimately turned into a comparison between the two Stargates, and led to me considering things about the two teams that I'd never thought about. Like I said in that thread, in my early days of watching SGA I kept making mental comparisons between the two shows (specifically the team relationships) and SGA kept coming up short. I loved the snark and bickering on SGA, but I missed the closeness of SG-1 and wished that SGA had that.

It's interesting, then, to make the same comparison *now* and find that I actually see more closeness on SGA, especially between the characters as individuals rather than as members of the same team. I mean, it's not really fair to keep comparing the two shows, since they *are* very different, the characters are different, the relationships are different ... but since I'd made that comparison in the beginning and found SGA coming up short, it's just so interesting to notice how differently I see them now. Meridian really brought that home ...

Okay, the similarities between Meridian and Tao of Rodney can't all just be in my head. I mean, granted, Rodney didn't go ahead and die, but it was pretty much the same thing as Meridian: one of the team is facing death and has to deal with their own emotional baggage in order to Ascend, while the others have to deal with the trauma of losing one of their own. And the way that the two teams react, as a group and as individuals, says quite a lot about the relationship that they have as a team as well as their individual personalities.

Random thought: I found it very interesting that Sheppard used the exact same phrasing, when he's talking to Weir about what Rodney has to do to Ascend, as Oma Desala did when talking to Daniel (about "releasing his burden"). Yeah, it's pretty standard Eastern-religion stuff, but I just found it an intriguing little aside, and probably a deliberate nod to the earlier episode on the writers' part.

Anyway, the big difference that struck me between the two episodes was the nature of the obstacles holding Daniel back from Ascending, as opposed to Rodney. In Daniel's case, it's mainly the big, saving-the-universe stuff. While he regrets the decisions that he made with Sha're (the spelling of whose name I'm probably butchering...), he's largely focused on the big picture -- on whether he made a difference in the war against the Goa'uld and, more broadly, in making the universe a better place. In fact, his final decision to move on is mainly because he feels as if he can do more good Ascended than alive.

Rodney starts out that way, but ultimately ends up in a very different mental place. His first concern, once it really hits him that he's dying, is to leave as much scientific work behind as possible -- kind of similar to how, in Hot Zone, he was trying to do the same thing only compressed into a much shorter span of time. (On another side note, it's also interesting to compare the way that Rodney reacts to his imminent death in Hot Zone vs Tao -- it's fairly similar and yet the differences speak volumes about how much he's changed in the intervening years.) All this is a lot like what happened with Daniel, what with the saving-the-world-before-onesself; and it's also nice to see the way that, in Tao as in Hot Zone before, when it comes right down to it, Rodney really does seem to be more interested in using science to help people than for his own glory.

But then he has that conversation with Elizabeth, about "releasing his burden", and that's where his focus changes in a way completely different from Daniel. Where the guiding factor in Daniel's Ascension was the big picture, Rodney focuses in on the small stuff -- on making things right with the people he cares about before he dies.

In Meridian, Daniel doesn't really say individual goodbyes to the members of his team. He gets individual scenes with Sam and Teal'c because they come to see him, but the only person he seeks out is Jack, and that was because he needed Jack to ask Jacob to stop healing him. They did get a goodbye of sorts, and it was nice to see, but Daniel didn't really seem to need closure with his friends before moving on. He didn't have anything in particular to say to them at the end.

Whereas with Rodney, it ended up being all about the closure, all about the one-on-one with them as individuals. And then at the end, when he was dying -- when Meridian got to that point, there was almost more of a sense of Daniel being cut off from his team, already severed from them and moving on. With Rodney, there was unity instead: his friends gathered around, telling him they loved him and trying to help him fight. And Rodney, of course, was still more concerned with staying than going -- as opposed to Daniel, who had the option of coming back and instead chose to move on. Rodney ended up in more or less the same position (according to the machine's readings, he actually *could* have Ascended, and I would guess that his dark floating place was the beginning of Ascension), but he wanted to come back. With curiosity being the driving force in Rodney's life, you'd think that Ascension would be the ultimate end for him -- the answer to all the questions of life. But when he actually has the option, it turns out that he doesn't *want* that. He'd rather go on living and be with his friends.

Daniel's decision is, of course, incredibly altruistic and also very Daniel. And, of course, we know now that separation from his friends ultimately didn't work; he kept breaking the rules to help them, eventually leading to his, er, de-Ascension.

But still, between the two, Rodney's choosing his friends over all else touched me a lot deeper than Daniel's more impersonal selflessness. Compared to Daniel's saving-the-universe altruism, Rodney's "my friends are more important than the universe" choice is sort of small and petty. But in the end, he chose love over everything else. In the big picture, it would probably have been much better for the universe at large if Rodney had spent his last hours pursuing scientific breakthroughs rather than trying to make amends with the people he loves. But he chose to be with them instead. They turned out to be more important to him than anything -- more important than finding out all the answers, than scientific advancement, than the legacy that he could have left behind. And it really kind of socked me in the gut (in a good way) to realize that -- especially comparing it to Meridian, which had such a *huge* emotional impact on me at the time ... and yet now, the SG-1 team seems more distant from each other than the SGA team as shown in Tao.

Comments

[karri-kln1671.livejournal.com]

Yup, you'd nailed that right on! *claps* Bravo and well said! SGA is a family; SG-1 is a team. The difference is subtle and yet enormous.

[sholio]

Thanks!

SGA is a family; SG-1 is a team.

True up to a point. I do think that SG-1 has some of that family vibe going too, especially in the really early seasons. But it's much stronger with SGA, and it's taken me a long time to really notice that.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Good point, and I think that can probably be explained by the fact that Atlantis is their home as well as their workplace. Unlike Cheyenne Mountain, they don't occasionally sleep there but have homes outside the base that they can go to, and no social circle outside of their fellow members of the expedition. I don't know if the writers have thought all that through in making the characters more intimate and close-knit this season, but it's certainly a valid explanation.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

You know, a lot of what you're seeing in your analysis depends on the characters themselves, and a lot more depends on the behind-the-scenes workings.

Strictly from a character standpoint, I think Daniel's focus being more on the world at large had to do with the fact that he didn't require closure with his friends. He was already close to them and had no real issues with how he'd treated them or been treated by them, so there were no obstacles along those lines to him ascending. Plus, unlike Rodney, he was rapidly deteriorating in an excruciating way from radiation poisoning, so he wasn't exactly in any shape to run around seeking people out for heart-to-hearts.

You've noted a greater distance in the SG-1 team in recent seasons versus the increased camaraderie of the SGA main team, and I think that the change in SGA has been deliberate on the part of the writers (and actors), while the SG-1 ambiance changed as RDA's interest in remaining on the show kept waning, changed more as his character became removed from the team to a supervisory role, and still more when he left and we were handed both a new general and a new leader for SG-1.

SG-1 was dealt a real blow by Daniel's death because Michael Shanks was actually leaving the show, and that lent the episode an emotional weight that it might not otherwise have had if we'd known he would eventually come back. But honestly, I think that the state of the camaraderie on SG-1 can be traced back to RDA's obvious lack of interest in the later seasons, when Jack progressively became more and more stupid, acting like he couldn't understand even fairly rudimentary scientific concepts and words with more than three syllables. He was phoning in his performance much of the time, and I think that helped to erode the team feeling onscreen. It didn't affect the performances of the other three, but when the team's supposed to consist of four people, one off note can wreck the delicate balance.

Fortunately, all the SGAers still seem very committed to their roles and fully present onscreen. I hope it stays that way for the duration of the show!

[atlantis-fan.livejournal.com]

Ohh good points! And they kind of refute the comments I just left!

SG-1 was dealt a real blow by Daniel's death because Michael Shanks was actually leaving the show, and that lent the episode an emotional weight that it might not otherwise have had if we'd known he would eventually come back.

May I ask a question because I honestly don't know this - when was it learned that MS WOULD be back on the show for some of the season 6 episodes/then back to full time on season 7? The problem for me is that I started really watching the show AFTER season six started airing so I missed the whole "MS is leaving" thing and was very confused when I saw Daniel on his season 6 episodes (and then he was back in season 7) so I never fully understood why everyone was mad that he was he was gone for good when in fact he wasn't...

[sholio]

I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly, because it's been several years and I'd already disengaged myself from the majority of SG-1 fandom at the time. But my recollection is that by the time "Meridian" aired, we already knew that Daniel would be back for an occasional guest appearance in Season 6 -- but he was still going to be dead, and no longer part of the team. The fact that he was coming back full-time didn't become common knowledge until quite late in Season 6, IIRC.

[sholio]

These are all good points. And it's also true (thinking about it) that I'm simply more engaged in SGA right now, so I guess -- I feel their pain more, maybe? A lot of the impact with "Tao" has to do with the backstory, and knowing that in a lot of cases this is the very first time that Rodney's ever reached out to these people, whereas with "Meridian" (as you said) Daniel's relationships with his teammates are good; he doesn't have bridges to mend.

And I do remember that a lot of the hurt with "Meridian" the first time was knowing that we were never going to see Daniel again. This was the character's swan song, and he was my favorite character on the show, so ... OW. Very much ow. Knowing that he comes back and that it's a temporary, not a final, goodbye -- helps ease the pain a lot.

My interest in the show by that point had already started flagging due to what I remember noticing at the time as increased distance between the characters, too. So, yeah. There are a lot of factors.

[with-apostrophe.livejournal.com]

Daniel's relationships with his teammates are good; he doesn't have bridges to mend.

I'd challenge that. Jack and Daniel had gone through a lot not long before he died, and it wasn't happy fun stuff. I don't know whether I see this from the show, or whether it's because I've read too much Jack/Daniel angst and it's taken root, but their friendship had undergone much damage, and I think there were bridges to mend - not so serious to prevent him from ascending, but it's telling that it's Jack that Daniel speaks to at the end.

[atlantis-fan.livejournal.com]

Which is why I like Tao 100xBetter than Meridan... Daniel is... well Daniel... and sometimes he seems selfish to me. I admit the first time I watched Maridan I was a bit mad at Daniel for almost abandoning his teammates who were devistated to see him dieing... and he seemed to not care - that was MY interpratation I'm not saying that he really didn't care (in fact it's probably very much the opposit - it just felt that way somehow...)

Of course I do realize that he almost had no choice - it was made pretty clear that even if Jacob could keep him from dieing Daniel probably never would have been the same physically and possibly mentially. *shrug*

Tao is better because the "Love" went both ways, Rodney made it clear that he cared for all of them and they made it clear they loved him.

"my friends are more important than the universe"

As someone else once pointed out - sometimes the needs of the few outway the needs of the many. :O)

[sholio]

Yeah, there weren't a lot of options for Daniel either way; from what Jacob said, he probably wouldn't have been able to step back into his old life, at least not easily. But on the other hand, the SGA bunch didn't know what the machine would do to Rodney, either, when they stuck him back into it -- especially in light of what he said to Weir at the very end (about the unpredictable results with regards to Sheppard). It could just as easily have melted him down as fixed him. But the effort was worth it, and both he and his friends wanted to try.

As someone else once pointed out - sometimes the needs of the few outway the needs of the many.

*laughs* And didn't they quote this on SGA once? Or am I thinking of a fanfic here?

In all honesty ... I think one reason why episodes like "Tao" have such an impact on me is because I *do* think that, well, it's very often true. The world is made up of the small things that people do for one another, not so much the grand gestures.

[leenys.livejournal.com]

Absolutely amazing and accurate observations. Will you please post this over at SGAHC for possible discussion with the group?

Kam :)

[sholio]

Thank you! :)

Will you please post this over at SGAHC for possible discussion with the group?

Erk ... I appreciate the invitation, but I don't know if I want to. The discussions on SGAHC scare me sometimes, and I could just see a Daniel or SG-1 fan flaming me for dissing their show (which I want to emphasize that I am NOT; I like SG-1 and have always liked it).

I might post a link to this discussion, so that I could keep control over it if it got out of hand.

Talk about weird mental connections!

[water-soter.livejournal.com]

I just recently saw a few episodes of SG-1 on Sci-Fi and for some reason, they failed to appeal to me the way they had when I first started watching the show. I don't know if it's because I've grown both as a person and a writer, but when I saw them, it felt like something was missing. It felt too cold and impersonal. Jack is awesome as always, but it just wasn't the same. The show felt somewhat cold and impersonal. And yes, I too found myself comparing, even in a somewhat subconscious sort of way, to SGA.

I really don't remember the title of the episode, but it was the one with Jack and Teal'c (bad spelling here) are stuck in a time loop and do all sorts of things they would never do. It was funny but it stricked me how easily Jack could just go ahead and eat Fruit Loops or oatmeal. At that moment I just thought, man, SGA can't afford to have too much stuff like that.

I don't know if I make much sense, but I find SGA the adult version of SG-1. More emotional and intense.

Re: Talk about weird mental connections!

[sholio]

I don't know if I make much sense, but I find SGA the adult version of SG-1. More emotional and intense.

I know exactly what you mean, and I get that feeling too. And really, it's understandable, because by the point where SGA spun off SG-1, the writers had grown a lot and developed a lot. Re-watching early episodes of SG-1, there's something kind of ... unformed about it, which I never had noticed when I watched it the first time around. Early SGA has a much sharper edge, and I like that. But then, the SGA writers had 7 seasons of SG-1 to look back on. Later SG-1 is a little sharper than its earlier incarnation, too.

Re: Talk about weird mental connections!

[leenys.livejournal.com]

You know, I thought the same. For all the talk about how SG1 was a team and all, well, it was. It was a team. Watching it now, I don't feel that emotional connection that everyone insists it has, not to the degree they claimed it to. And I'm sorry, but after seeing John and Rodney? Jack and Daniel don't cut it. Now I can't see them being as close friends as I used to picture them being. And I can see RDA's aloofness growing as far back as season five. It's like everything I loved about the show has faded. I don't know...it's a bit disconcerting. Now I'm not sure how I feel about the show.

Kam :/

[melibabe.livejournal.com]

You make some very interesting comparisons, that have gotten me thinking as well. My first reaction was to reinterpret Daniel's Ascension in "Meridian" as a bit more like giving up rather than forging ahead. I mean, at the time it aired, I'm not sure I felt that, but in looking back now and thinking on your comments, it does seem more that way.

I saw the conflict between Daniel and Jack that season (especially at the end of "Menace," for example), and the growing sense that Daniel was frustrated with his situation on the team and the constant effort of being the non-military, humanitarian voice in an increasingly desperate war zone. During the earlier seasons, when the jeopardy wasn't perhaps as high because no one Out There really worried about the puny Tau'ri, you could take the humanitarian road at times. As things moved along, however, that became more and more difficult, both in execution and perhaps within Daniel's own mind, as he himself became more of a "soldier."

So by the time Oma makes her offer, I kind of feel as if Daniel no longer sees any way to progress within our world. And that, combined with Daniel's general sense of "I've not accomplished anything" actually now gives me the impression that it's almost like a completion of a suicide attempt that started when he dove through that window.

Whereas with Rodney, it's all accidental, he has no love for the Ancients or their rules, and he is very much enjoying the Here and Now of Atlantis with his team/family. Perhaps he's ready to fight much more because he still has hope.

[sholio]

That's actually a *very* interesting take on Daniel and his decision to Ascend! And very much supported by canon. I hadn't thought about it in that much depth.

[leenys.livejournal.com]

"So by the time Oma makes her offer, I kind of feel as if Daniel no longer sees any way to progress within our world. And that, combined with Daniel's general sense of "I've not accomplished anything" actually now gives me the impression that it's almost like a completion of a suicide attempt that started when he dove through that window."

Now THAT is a fanfic idea if I ever heard one!!!

This statement is reading too much into it, I'm sure, but I can also see this whole frustration/giving up thing as a reflection of Shanks' own feelings at the time. I've often wondered at the wording of that episode; considering what Shanks was going through at the time it almost seemed more personal in a RL way than in a "show" way. If that makes sense.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

You raise some very interesting points here Friendship.

One big difference though has to do with the very different ways that Daniel and Rodney veiwed Ascention... As you stated Daniel thought that Ascending would allow him to do more - to have more of an effect on the events in the universe than staying as a human - even one that was perfectly healthy. Rodney (in part because what happened to Daniel) knew that wouldn't be the case. In fact one of the reasons he gives Elizabeth is that he knows he would not be able to just sit back and watch stuff happen.

Another difference is the different kinds of relationship the two teams/family have. As you pointed out in an earlier post, Sheppard's team as a much different way of showing affection then SG-1 does. So there were not as many fences to mend. As with John and Rodney, there was nothing that needed to said or done. It was all understood.

As you pointed out Tao along with McKay and Mrs Miller in part have helped Rodney learn more about himself and what is really important to him...and in the end it is not science it is the people in his life...his team - Sheppard, Ronon and Telya; his friends - Carson, Radek and Elizabeth and even if she wasn't there, his sister. I don't know if the same could be said for Daniel. As much as he cared for his team I don't think they had become most important thing in his life. As you said, he is focused on the grand picture.




I am interested in seeing how things play out over the rest of the season and into the season four.

Meridian never really effected me that much - in part I guess because I felt that Daniel would continue to exist - just on a different plane. And while I never was that worried that Rodney really would die - I was highly doubtful about his ability to Ascend.

[sholio]

That's definitely a good point about their different attitudes towards Ascension -- and a *really* good point about their team being the most important thing in their life ... or not. I think you're right about Daniel -- and that makes yet *another* interesting point about Rodney, because of the two of them (Daniel vs. Rodney) you'd tend to think that Daniel (the people person) would place a higher value on the people in his life than Rodney (the standoffish emotional cripple). But in reality, it's the other way around. Rodney's the one who is willing to give up everything for the people he loves. Daniel is more inclined to get sidetracked by grand ideals and quests -- the search for Sha're, the need to rid the universe of the Goa'uld, the search for knowledge...

I was actually amazed that Rodney did turn out to have the potential for Ascension on the show. I would never have expected that.

[anniehow.livejournal.com]

What an interesting discussion!

Daniel was my favourite character as well (c'mon: who didn't love Daniel?) and I was completely cut up when Michael Shanks decided to leave. The actor-wanting-to-leave feels to me a lot more final than any other reason... and I never actually watched "Meridian" because I didn't want to see Daniel going for good. I remember reading an interview with M.S. in which he said he wasn't satisfied with the episode because he felt the writers were so scared of alienating the fans, that they spent more time on the "he isn't really dead!" bandwagon than the "he'll be gone soon" side, which he felt would have had more emotional impact and be more relevant (besides, at the time, he meant it: he wasn't coming back).

In Tao, on the other hand, it was all about the "gone" side, at least for me. Perversely, I think they could play this harder and make it more enjoyable because we *knew* Rodney wasn't going to leave the show. I was able to giggle when he was laying there, at the end of his rope, mumbling about being at peace- interspaced with moments of sheer terror (hee. so Rodney, and so human), but if he were really dieing... ARRGGHH!

Also, Rodney states quite clearly that he doesn't see the appeal of ascending: no pursuit of knowledge, no material application of omniscience- not interested. Then his strive for ascension becomes "his means to an end": de-scending, whereas for Daniel it was going to be the fulfillment of his desire both for knowledge and helping the universe (and how exactly did Oma sell that, since we all know the non-interference rule?)

On a little side note, I love how Rodney says he doesn't understand "stop thinking", that that's just not him.
Ascension , instead, suited Daniel in a lot of ways (not all, as we saw).

And now a little request for help: At the end of Tao, when there's that adorable little scene between Rodney and Elizabeth, and he's gloating/ribbing her about her "love" for him, he tells her he's always felt that there was some special chemistry between them, something he ****** in Sheppard. What does he say there???? I keep watching it and re-watching it (poor me) and I just can't catch the word! Help! Please!

[sholio]

What does he say there???? I keep watching it and re-watching it (poor me) and I just can't catch the word! Help! Please!

He says "... covered in Chapter 10" (of the book he gave Elizabeth).

Thanks for weighing in -- especially good to hear from another Daniel fan! I do have more to say about this, but right now I'm falling asleep on my keyboard, so I'll be back in the morning to respond to the rest. *grin*

[sholio]

I think you've got a really good point here that so much of the impact of "Meridian" was simply knowing that Michael was gone. We weren't so much watching the reactions of the characters as feeling our own reactions to it. And the producers may well have been trying to tone it down because they didn't want to send the audience completely over the edge -- knowing they'd be working with a rather distraught audience, they wanted to leave them with some elements of hope.

Whereas with Rodney, everyone *knows* he's not going to die, so they could get angsty as hell ... and still stick in those moments of humor that SGA does so well.

That's really interesting; I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

On a little side note, I love how Rodney says he doesn't understand "stop thinking", that that's just not him.

Oh yes, that was one of my (many) favorite bits in the episode. It just says so much about him.

[derry667.livejournal.com]

I admit that I did see the similarities in storyline between these two episodes, but they had an almost totally different feel to me which stemmed from the differences in the central characters.

I was already becoming numbed to SG-1 by the end of the fifth season. I loved Wormhole Extreme watched Meridian because I knew (spoilerwise) that it was going to be "pivotal". I do think that I was quite numbed to the tragedy of it all when I first saw it. But I've seen it a few times since.

The whole thing about Meridian was that Ascension was Daniel's "one big opportunity". In the end, he rejects another form of therapy (the Tokra device) to put his faith in Ascension.

Interestingly, at the last minute, Rodney rejects Ascension to put his faith in another form of therapy - which saves his life even though it turns out he could have Ascended.

There's a demystifying of the Ancients and Ascension by the time of Tao. Not only Rodney, but also John speaks of their flaws and shows an unwillingness to follow in their footsteps without question.

Daniel's big hurdle to Ascension seemed to me that he thought that he was unworthy of Ascension. Rodney seemed to think that Ascension wasn't really worthy of him either, as shown ultimately by the fact that he rejected it in favour of another option.

And y'know, I got the feeling that Rodney's efforts to reach out to his friends was done as much to reach out to them for their own sake, as much as to buy him brownie points for Ascension.

In the end, Rodney didn't really want Ascension. He just didn't want to die. And yeah, I was mildly surprised that he'd achieved a state where he could have ascended if he'd wanted. I can't help thinking that had an element of "just coz the writer says so" to it. It struck me (forgive me) as just a little trite and "convenient"

I have no problem with Rodney rejecting Ascension. I'm pretty sure that these days, Daniel would reject it too (in favour of another option if available).

[sholio]

I've given quite a bit of thought to the Rodney/Ascension thing (well, not THAT much thought, I'm not THAT obsessed, but you know what I mean). A couple of people who commented above didn't think that Rodney would actually have been capable of Ascending at all -- just because he hits the right frequency of brain waves doesn't mean that his theory is *right*.

But I don't think it's unreasonable. On his own -- no way. But his body had been physically prepared for it -- basically achieving the physiological changes that the Ancients apparently went through prior to Ascending. And as far as I know, using a machine to monitor biofeedback results is actually a very *good* way to train yourself to achieve a particular mental state. Even though Rodney's taking an amusingly (but characteristic) scientific approach to what is at least partially a matter of faith, I don't think that hooking himself up to a machine and then training himself how to achieve the right mental state was a bad idea at all.

So basically, he already had the physical condition down, and he had a pretty good way of getting mentally prepared. The one thing he was missing was actually *wanting* to Ascend. And, for all we know, maybe that's why so many Ancients *don't* actually manage to Ascend -- they weren't able to take that extra step of letting go of their former identity (and really, who can blame them). It might be a lot easier to achieve the near-Ascension state than we've previously realized on the show, but that last step ... that's the doozy. :)

So basically, I don't think it's unrealistic that Rodney could have gotten that close. But I really don't think he would have been able to go ahead and do it. The final step of letting go of himself is just not something that he would have been able to do, IMHO.

And you may well be right about Daniel. There is a *lot* of water under the bridge between then and now, and a lot has changed in how the Ancients are viewed in the present day. And, again, can't say I blame them. Rather than gods, the Ancients have essentially turned out to be human beings with god complexes.