sholio | Threaded comments and other randomosity

Crossposts: http://sholio.livejournal.com/417353.html

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Threaded comments and other randomosity

If I explode all over my keyboard sometime between now and the 17th of January, it's on account of the strain of not looking at White Collar spoiler pictures.

Just in case I vanish forever from the Internet, you'll know what killed me.

Actually, I'm leaving in a week for a Christmas vacation, so I really will vanish from the Internet. But only temporarily.

In the meantime, I keep having all these interesting things I want to talk about, and then ... not. For example, threaded vs. unthreaded comments! This is something I've been thinking about recently, since I've been reading John Scalzi's blog quite a bit lately, and a bit of G+/Facebook, and other non-LJ/DW blogs that don't have threaded comments (i.e. the comments are all in a big column, rather than being divided into sub-conversations - so you reply to the whole group rather than to a specific person; if you want to specifically address your comment to one person in the discussion, you have to say so, because there's nothing built-in to make it obvious).

When I first got on LJ, I thought threaded comments were awesome. They made it so much easier to keep a conversation straight, rather than constantly having to scroll up and down on message boards and other blogs to find out just what, exactly, "Jane @ comment #271" had said. And it felt a little more intimate, like you were having a discussion with just one person in the comment thread rather than the entire population of the message board.

But the longer I'm here, the more I'm starting to think threaded comments can become a bit stifling, especially in big conversations. For one thing, as the blog owner it makes me feel that I need to reply to every comment at my blog, and makes it a much bigger time-sink ... and therefore, makes me less likely to post new stuff, because I don't have time to create a whole new plethora of comments that I'll have to answer. Not that I mind getting comments - far from it! :D - but it takes time to answer them, even just to say "Thanks!" or "Yep!" (and I really do try to make my replies more substantial than that). Or you can pick and choose, but then it looks like you're just responding to your favorite people and ignoring everyone else. There are a lot of times when I want to say something, but don't really feel like taking the time to have a whole conversation about it, so I don't post.

If you don't have threaded comments, but just a tall stack of comments in no particular order, then you don't have to respond unless someone says something you really want to answer - which is less inviting from a social interaction/friendship/small-talk perspective, but a lot more appealing when you just want to toss out, say, a picture of your dog without having to respond directly to all the people who go "Cute dog!"

And when you jump into a new conversation - well, let's say that someone is having an interesting discussion, and you are reading the comments and see one that you really want to respond to. But it's a subthread, so you're not really comfortable responding to that subthread (and that individual person in the conversation) without also posting a separate comment addressing the blog owner's main post. I know that some LJ/DW bloggers can get bent out of shape if someone comes into their comments and only answers other people's comments, rather than also posting a top-level comment addressing the original post. (ETA: Or do they? See this comment thread. Is this actually a social norm, or just some of us assuming it's a social norm? I don't actually recall ever seeing anyone get yelled at for thread-jumping.) For the record, I don't actually care, myself ...

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I've never seen anyone reprimanded for responding to a comment rather than to a main post. But I don't get out much. :-)

I don't think that I would feel any less obliged to reply if comments were unthreaded. I think I would just find it more difficult all around. YMMV.

*nods* That makes sense. I think the threaded comments definitely make it feel more personal, like having a quiet chat on the couch rather than being part of a large group conversation at a party, perhaps.

If you don't have threaded comments, but just a tall stack of comments in no particular order, then you don't have to respond unless someone says something you really want to answer

For me, if a blog doesn't have threaded comments, that's exactly why I rarely bother to comment - I'm not really likely to get an answer! And I'm in it for the conversation.

Sorry, I decided to delete and repost rather than editing, because my original phrasing of this comment made NO SENSE AT ALL. Let me try again. :D

I agree with you that threaded comments are definitely more inviting for social interaction - especially if you're new to the person's blog, or they're a friend.

On the other hand, I think non-threaded comments are actually more inviting for me if I want to respond to the OP's thoughts (or the point raised by one of the commenters) as opposed to wanting to have social interaction with the OP, if that makes any sense! I mean, usually on LJ, we're here because we want to relate to each other as people. But if I'm reading a political blog, and I want to answer one of the points that it's raised, I think I'm more likely to do it on a non-LJ blog (unless I know the OP pretty well).

But if I'm reading a political blog, and I want to answer one of the points that it's raised, I think I'm more likely to do it on a non-LJ blog (unless I know the OP pretty well).

Hm. When I think about responding to a point raised in a blog post, what stops me most of the time is that I don't want to talk into a void. And not getting a reply (even if it's just a one-word acknowledgment) feels to me like talking into a void.

(Basically, the only time I don't care about replies is when I'm only commenting to protest against something in the original post.)

Hmmm! See, to me it doesn't feel like talking into the void, because I'm more interested in making a point (or responding to someone else's point) than in having the OP or other commenters respond directly to me. If that makes any sense. I think on unthreaded blogs, I'm very unlikely to make the sort of comments that I make on LJ quite a bit (small talk or expressions of social fellow-feeling, of the "I'm so sorry!" or "How wonderful!" variety), unless it's a small blog and I know the OP quite well. Instead I'll post because I have something specific to say, and I know (or hope) that my comment will be read by people reading the discussion, which is all I'm really interested in.

I'm more interested in making a point (or responding to someone else's point) than in having the OP or other commenters respond directly to me.

But that's the thing - without any acknowledgment I feel like I might as well not have made my point at all, as probably no one even noticed it. That's maybe not how it actually is, but that's how it feels to me.

(I completely agree, though, that the purely social comments are a different thing altogether.)

How interesting, because I don't have the same perception at all! I suppose that if I made a lot of comments, and no one ever responded to any of the points I raised, I might start to feel as if I wasn't expressing myself well, or I was ticking people off, or something. *g* But just as a general thing ... not really -- for me it's a matter of getting my thoughts out there, not having other people respond to it, that counts. Er, which is not to say that I never want feedback at all! But especially in that kind of discussion, the sort where people are debating a political issue or airing opinions in general ... yeah, I'm not really posting to have a conversation with anyone specific, so much as to participate in a larger conversation, if that makes any sense.

Maybe this comes from having been internet-socialized on message boards and mailing lists, where having other people respond to one's comments was by no means guaranteed, but there was a sort of general understanding (on my end, at least) that people were reading through the whole discussion and thinking about it. Or maybe it's just my own personal take on the whole thing - I don't know! Anyway, interesting. :D

But just as a general thing ... not really -- for me it's a matter of getting my thoughts out there, not having other people respond to it, that counts. Er, which is not to say that I never want feedback at all! But especially in that kind of discussion, the sort where people are debating a political issue or airing opinions in general ... yeah, I'm not really posting to have a conversation with anyone specific, so much as to participate in a larger conversation, if that makes any sense.

I think I'm not explaining myself very well here ... it's not about conversation with people, not with that kind of discussion. It's about being heard at all. If I get no visible response, my impression is that I haven't been heard by anyone at all. I'm not part of what you call the "larger conversation" because it would be exactly the same if I weren't there.

That, btw, is exactly why I was almost exclusively a lurker in the days of the mailing list: you say there was a general understanding that people were reading the whole discussion, but I never had that understanding. I mean, I often didn't read the whole discussion, so I didn't expect anyone else to either.

It's so interesting how differently we experience the same medium.

I don't think you're explaining yourself poorly! I guess it's just a different way of looking at it, or maybe a different set of expectations. And it's probably colored by the fact that prior to getting onto LJ in 2005-ish, I spent ten years during which time I did a LOT of interacting with people in non-threaded discussions (my activity level on LJ is fairly typical of my activity level on message boards for the previous 5 years, and on mailing lists on the 5 years prior to that ... come to think of it, no wonder I type as fast as I do XDDD). So it was something I was used to, that's all. (ETA: Oh, and yes, same medium but different experiences - it *is* really interesting how it works that way!)

Edited 2011-12-15 09:37 (UTC)

I completely agree!

I have had friends who had blogs on Blogger and other platforms like that, and I quit reading and responding to their blogs because of the zero lack of conversation. The person who owned the blog knew if I commented, but no one else did. That means if any conversation was going to happen, the readers of the blog had to bookmark and refresh and refresh and refresh and just see if someone had something interesting to say. Which I am not inclined to do.

If I explode all over my keyboard sometime between now and the 17th of January

(((((WHAT))))))))?????
Surely things cannot be that bad......
:D

Yes it iiiiiiiiiiis that bad. They're everywhere! I only have so much willpower!

Everywhere, you say? I will exercise caution.

Sherlock fandom is doing the same thing, but worse! They showed the first episode of the new series in a theater, so a bunch of people have seen it and written about it. It will air in the UK Jan. 1, followed by the other two (they make three 90-minute movies rather than more shorter eps). UK DVDs will be out Jan. 23. It will air in the US on PBS May 6! Thank goodness for region-free DVD players! I'm still going to stumble over spoilers everywhere.

At least with White Collar, it's only photos so far, and even though I can hardly ever watch the night it airs, I can usually get to it in under a week.

You can hold out one more month!

Ack! That sounds like a huuuuge pain to avoid! Poor Sherlock fandom. ;_; (I guess there was a similar situation when leaked episodes of SGA used to air -- it created a big gap between people who'd seen it, and people who couldn't see it for months yet.)

And with regards to White Collar, I suppose that by "everywhere", what I actually mean is "in a few communities I follow, and occasionally comments or headers to fic". *g* I think I may have to stop reading over at ff.net until the new season airs, just to be on the safe side, but thus far everyone has been really good about spoiler-cutting.

Somehow I managed to avoid nearly all those spoilers for SGA episodes; I guess I wasn't too deep in the fandom. So far, I haven't seen any WC spoiler photos, just links to them that clearly label them as spoilers. (I must admit, I'm tempted! I want to know that Elizabeth will be okay! It's silly, because I cannot imagine that the show would allow her not to be okay for long.)

When the first season of Sherlock aired, I held off on fic until we were halfway through the third and final episode of the season. But we could only watch half at a time, and it was going to be days after we saw the first half that we could watch the second half, and I thought I'd venture into the fanfic world and just watch carefully for spoilers, which most people were good about marking—and then someone at AO3 had a huge spoiler for the last few minutes of the episode right in the description of the story, so there wasn't any avoiding it. If I'd had a little more self-control, I'd have held out until we'd finished the season. Apparently, I don't have much self-control in that area of my life.

I gave up reading darned near everything at ff.net! Sometimes I still go there when I really want something in a certain fandom and I've read everything in my usual places, but I've had too many problems there. (The worst involved a non-con story that was not labeled as such, and when I suggested to the author that she label it thus, she told me I was misreading it and changed the header notes to say that it was possible to misread the story in a way that made it non-con! It was insulting and she trivialized my complaint, and I could only hope that her new wording was a sufficient trigger warning to anyone who might react even worse than I did. I guess I'm still not over that one. I was very upset by the whole dispute. I've never had one like that anywhere else. I've cautiously suggested a few people re-rate their stories in other places, and every one of them was very polite, and most took my suggestion!)

Think (((((((((((((DVDs)))))))))))) and NO tv until then
I have only seen one trailer.

Heh! Yes, to this dilemma.

I suppose, ideally, you'd be able to pick threaded or un-threaded commenting when you posted something, as a level of control. But that might *confuse* people, too.

I personally prefer threaded, slightly, so that tangents are obviously tangents. I also don't feel obligated to answer EVERYTHING, though I try to at least show appreciation for more thoughtful comments, and answer questions, if I get 'em. It can feel like playing favorites, sometimes, though, and I worry about that a bit.

*nods* Yeah, in actually practice, I don't respond to everything - latecomers to the discussion, in particular, get the short end of the commenting stick, and I'm a lot more likely to respond to comments that say something I really want to reply to, than comments of the "Cute dog!" variety. But then I feel guilty about it.

The threaded vs unthreaded comments is a recurring theme in Reddit vs Metafilter arguments. MeFi famously doesn't have threaded comments, which Redditors sneer at, while the MeFites find that they prefer it to the tangle of threads and sub-threads that develop on Reddit. It's true that it does foster very different cultures.

I'm glad LJ has threaded comments; I'm glad MeFi doesn't. I don't go on Reddit -

skuldchan does, so I don't miss out on anything too important. XD And I personally find MeFi easier to browse, and far, far less prone to annoying digressions and derailing.

Oh, interesting point! I don't go on Reddit (usually) and only tend to browse MeFi when Googling takes me there, so I wasn't aware of that.

I definitely think that threaded vs. unthreaded comments lend themselves to different kinds of discussions. The discussion above with Trobadora is interesting because it's making me think about what I get out of threaded comments, which is a certain sense of social interaction that doesn't go along with unthreaded comments! But when the purpose of a blog isn't social interaction, but to discuss or debate an idea, I feel as if threaded comments get in the way a little bit -- they make it harder for people to thread-jump, say, and make it more intimidating to break in on a discussion between two commenters even if you have something to say, because it feels like a private conversation.

One of the things that's making me think about this is that I've noticed lately, I keep thinking about blog posts I want to make and then not making them, not because I don't have time to write the post but because I don't have time to have the discussion that will follow! This is making me more likely to put little random things on G+, where I can just toss a link or a funny Youtube video or a random observation about life or fandom, and save LJ for the long substantial posts.

I spend quite a lot of time on MeFi. I lurk 99% of the time, but having followed the site closely for years I think I have a pretty good sense of how it works, and how people see it, and it's interesting! It's interesting to see how people deal with the non-thread issue when they want to carry on a conversation, and how, most of the time, you're encouraged to keep up a commentary relevant to the original post rather than going off on some tangent. The tangent thing happens, obviously, and sometimes a couple of people get into bitter arguments, but since the site is moderated, it is usually fairly easy to cut a derail short.

I find it easier to comment with general comments on content when I know I won't end up in a new thread at the bottom of a post. It's also easier to take others' comments into account when writing my own - I can incorporate new information, or bring up agreement (or disagreement) with other points of view expressed. And I personally thing it makes for a more interesting general discourse than what you find on Reddit.

...of course, Reddit and MeFi are arch enemies, with Mefites often expressing their disdain by comparing sub-par posts or stupid comments with Reddit content and Redditors (at least my personal one!) being very skeptical about the whole PAYING to sign up to comment. (Which I think is brilliant, because it cuts down on the spam and sock puppets.) But when it comes down to it, as in the legendary pub quiz in London a few months back, Redditors and Mefites both are FROM THE INTERNET and actually get along pretty well when they meet. (Or maybe that's just my personal experience. XD)

But it's interesting how I feel like high-traffic sites with lots of discussion work better when they have a no-thread interface, while I want personal blogs to be threaded.

Oh! And what you said in your comment - yes! I have exactly the same reaction to content I share on G+ and posts I want to write on LJ. G+ is like dropping a sticky-note with an attached article on someone's desk; "hey, this is cool!". LJ is sitting down over a cup of tea for a nice chat.

I know that some LJ/DW bloggers can get bent out of shape if someone comes into their comments and only answers other people's comments, rather than also posting a top-level comment addressing the original post.
Really? I've never seen this. I think I usually try to do both (I do feel a tad rude answering comments and ignoring the post), so maybe I've just missed getting the sharp edge of someone's tongue (or keyboard, as the case may be).

I'm just happy to have people talking! Sometimes I worry that no one will read my LJ. (I came to LJ very involved in Stargate fandom and made many of my friends that way, but we're now scattered to various fandoms, and my posts are now eclectic, to put it nicely, and highly erratic.)

I do feel a tad rude answering comments and ignoring the post

Maybe I should go back and edit my post to be a little more vague, because I think this perception is mostly what I'm talking about! I do this too ... but why? I've never been yelled at for it. I have no specific recollection of ever seeing anyone get yelled at for it. I do have a vague recollection of once running across a discussion in which at least one person said that they found it rude when someone jumps into their comments without addressing them directly, but I don't remember when or where or who.

Perhaps this is one of those situations where we're just assuming that it's a social norm on the basis of no information whatsoever. *g* But I think it's interesting that you and I had the same perception, so it must come from somewhere.

Interesting. I think I feel that way because I'm transferring some real-life expectations to LJ: it would be rude to walk past the host of a party to start talking to someone else; I can talk to someone else at her party, but I should at least say hello. If I hear a paper given at a conference and someone makes a comment I want to answer, I start with a comment on the paper itself before responding to the other audience member. I'm not sure if that's what conditions my behavior on LJ, though. I feel as though it's proper to address the main poster, but I don't always do that. Often I'll reply to a commenter in a way that I think responds to the main poster too and not worry about another reply if I do that; occasionally, I'll just get caught up in something and reply to someone else off-topic and then think, "Oh, shoot! I should have addressed the person whose LJ it is!"

When I see people responding to each other and not to me in comments on my LJ, I feel as though I've made a good post, because other people have found things to interest them. Maybe it's too many years of teaching: I love to have students answer each other instead of always answering me.

It's definitely not an expectation I have (or that I've seen others have). I mean, I can imagine specific cases where it would be rude to ignore the post and dive straight into comment chatter--like if someone posted about a death in their family--but for general fannish stuff? Conversational drift is fun.

I personally don't have that objection (at all!) when people comment to threads in my journal... and I can't remember anyone mentioning it specifically, but I too find it vaguely rude when I have the opportunity to do it.

If you've ever hung out around

fanficrants, I know I've seen complaints there about folks who get involved in other folks' comment threads but don't comment directly themselves — but that's specifically referring to fic posts.

(And since I'm doing exactly this myself: I have trouble with both comment styles. I can't keep up with massive threaded posts — anon memes, anyone? — but I'm not going to refresh an unthreaded post over and over and over to see if someone happens to address my point, either.)

Both styles represent issues for me as well, but the part of me that likes organization prefers threaded threads, because it's sooooo hard (Ok, maybe not that hard) to keep up with unthreaded posts.

I have seen people say they think it's rude when people reply to comments but not the main post. I don't know how common that feeling is, though.

I don't tend to comment on blogs off DW/LJ - especially political blogs; especially blogs with a wide audience. So I don't tend to frequent the places where you're saying the non-threaded comment scheme works really well. I have nothing I can offer, there!

What I can say is that I dislike tumblr rabidly as a space for interaction. It's a great place to throw up pretty pictures, but a lot of people use it as their primary site - and there it's not only non-threaded, it's more that you reblog a whole post, cluttering your feed and the feed of everyone who's following you. Oy. I like my LJ/DW conversations, that are easy to follow back and forth :D

Oh, it's not just you - I find Tumblr complicated, annoying and hard to parse. *g* It makes me feel a little better that large portions of my flist seem to feel likewise! I'm starting to appreciate it as a means of finding pretty pictures, especially when I need a TON of pictures of a particular celebrity RIGHT NOW (what? don't we all have days like that?). But for interaction, yeah -- I haven't even gotten so far as to figure out how it can be used for interaction, except I know that some people do use it that way, so it's got to be possible. But mostly I just find it confusing and unpleasant.

It could be because my first serious interaction with an internet place where people comment was on LJ, but I cannot, for the life of me, follow unthreaded comments. When people reply to other comments I get totally lost and lose all track of what's being said and who is replying to who (I can't remember who said what as I go down) and I find it to be much more shouting into the void than having a conversation. But I'm also pretty laidback about not caring if posts/comments get responded to in what order or anything like that. I have enough things in my life to get worked up over, you know?

I hope your vacation is awesome and safe and warm and sunny!

*nods* It is confusing, and that was one of the reasons I was so happy with threaded comments when I first discovered LJ! I think I've become more aware of their limitations after spending so much time using them over the last few years, but they're still really nice for online social interaction.

And thank you! :)

One aspect of threaded/unthreaded that drives me nuts is on Wordpress, where I have my crafting blog. In theory, the comments there are threaded, ie you reply directly to comments rather than to the post overall. BUT when you reply to a comment, the person you're replying to doesn't get a notification that you've replied! They can subscribe to all comments, or they can subscribe to none. I'm seriously thinking about switching to email for comment replies over there, so at least people know I'm talking back! If you're going to have threaded comments, it would be really nice for people to know you're having a conversation with them!

Wow ... that sounds like the worst of all possible worlds, for sure! What were they thinking?

Pretty much! They've just had a revamp, so I need to test it out, but it's so irritating. I mean, it's useful for following specific conversations, but how is it a conversation if people don't know you're talking?!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Threaded comments and other randomosity

on responding to comments

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