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Does anyone on my flist know anything about swordfighting?
The problem is, it's not just a matter of looking up a specific swordfighting school. It's a really weird, oddball, fantasy kind of swordfighting that I need to figure out. I have a character who is learning to fight with an early Iron Age Celtic short sword (roughly 18" blade). Her teacher learned on similar swords 1500 years ago, but has had all kinds of opportunities to acquire new techniques and develop her own fighting style in the years since.
I know zip-all about swordfighting, and would really love to brainstorm with anyone on my flist who could help me work out some of the basic techniques that someone would use with a sword like the one I'm describing. Especially the sort of moves that someone might teach a person when they're first learning to defend themselves with a sword of that sort. (It's a magic sword, for whatever that's worth, but the main thing that's magic about it is that it never goes dull and can cut through anything.)
Feel free to link to this post if you want to spread the word. :)
I know zip-all about swordfighting, and would really love to brainstorm with anyone on my flist who could help me work out some of the basic techniques that someone would use with a sword like the one I'm describing. Especially the sort of moves that someone might teach a person when they're first learning to defend themselves with a sword of that sort. (It's a magic sword, for whatever that's worth, but the main thing that's magic about it is that it never goes dull and can cut through anything.)
Feel free to link to this post if you want to spread the word. :)
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(Anonymous) 2011-11-13 04:22 am (UTC)(link)Then, when I sat down to write one, I realized something: describing a sword fight technically makes for a really freakin' boring read. (At least, I was not equal to the task.) Sword fights are so fast that I have never been able to describe them in any sort of technical detail without bogging down the scene horribly. And then I started to notice something: other writers don't bog their fights down with unnecessary detail either, and I started to realize that it didn't take away from my enjoyment of the scene, even being a sword person, because my brain filled in the details. In movies, my sword training makes many fights a let down because many of them are so *bad*; in books, my sword training enhances fights as long as the writer is wise enough to leave most of them to the imagination (with the notable exception of the writer getting something blatantly WRONG, like making swords much heavier than they were -- they were not 12 pounds, people!). So, I feel I eventually wised up about writing sword fights in that I found the most effective way to write one is to focus on the character moments in it -- not describe a "Character A parries, Character B ripostes, Character A thwarts" blow-by-blow. And by "character moments" I mean those moments when the character thrusts but the opponent *just isn't there* because she's so fast and she managed to evade somehow, or when a blow seems to come out of nowhere or a character sees a feint for what it is and gleefully counters the following attack... (the "oh shit!" moments, so to speak). IMHO, personal experience as both reader & writer, I've found that to be the most effective. I think my sword fights have gotten better because I'm able to sketch them out in my head in a realistic way and then describe bits of them, but I don't know how obvious that is. I really only use the specific sword knowledge for a few things, like the vocabulary people would use to talk about the parts of a sword and little things like that.
Here's what I would suggest: don't take fencing (well, unless you are interested in it for its own sake, as it is fun -- I've done fencing as well and I concur with others that it is a far cry from historical sword play, unless maybe you are writing about classical French small sword). Instead, get a big stick about the size of your character's sword, find a big open space, and act out a sword fight with your creature. Mark out the ducks and rolls and surprise attacks. If you want to know what carrying her sword is like, strap it to your waist for a day. A stick will be lighter than a steel sword, but assuming it's a sword of quality (as I would expect a magical sword to be), it will be very well balanced.
Writing training scenes is a trickier problem. If your heroine is contemporary (or has had a lifestyle relatively without violence), so much of it will be psychological for her (how do you face someone who is holding a three-foot piece of sharp steel and WANTS TO SLICE YOU UP WITH IT? without falling to pieces?). Depending on the personality of your instructor, a lot of the training could have to do with psychological drills of facing an opponent or facing pain (Dresden Files hit 'em with rocks style?), or even on general physical fitness, without involving the sword at all. I really like George R.R. Martin's scenes of Arya's sword training:
(mild spoilers for ASOIAF)
1) Her first lesson from her brother is "stick them with the pointy end", 2) her first real instructor has her do many things like chasing cats and standing on one foot that appear to have nothing to do with sword play, and 3) in her first actual fight, all her training deserts her and the only thing she remembers is "stick them with the pointy end." Even the parts in which she's training with an actual blade aren't very technical, like her instructor saying, "Now try to hit me" and then, "For an hour and a half, Arya tried" or something like that (paraphrased, book not in front of me). And I could be wrong, but IIRC Martin DOES know quite a bit about historical sword play, so I'm assuming he just found it more evocative to write it non-technically, and as a reader, I agree! ("The Princess Bride" has a similar approach to Inigo's training (though more tongue-in-cheek, of course), having him do things like squeeze rocks for years and years.)
END SPOILERS
ANYway, if you want to start getting technical with her training, here are a few suggestions: first, FOOTWORK. (Disclaimer: opinions vary; I had one instructor who was of the "*shrug* whatever works with your blade work" view, but I am a huge footwork fiend!) If her instructor has lived through all eras of history, look up things like advances, retreats, passes, thwarts...if you delve into the classical French system you'll find a lot of similar moves to ballet (no surprise given the close relationship ballet history has with sword training). This was obviously far after your master teacher's time period but again, she might have picked up on some of it. I'm not sure what Celtic-specific movement would be -- I would guess less formalized, more generic movement -- but if she's lived through all of history some sort of footwork training, even if it's just stepping correctly to maintain the appropriate distance, would be a pretty safe bet. Also keeping one's weight centered is hard for most beginning sword fighters. Beginning bladework -- Most contemporary training I've taken (emphasis on contemporary; the moves are historical, but I'm not sure how it would have been *taught* back in the day) have started with a number of standard attacks and their corresponding parries and worked on those first, with the repertoire expanding as the student advanced. Most teachers I've had, whether Eastern or Western, numbered the standard attacks/parries so they can be referred to concisely. Much of that is historical -- I know for sure from the Italian/French systems; I'm not absolutely sure whether the numbering is historical in Asian systems or if it's something that people have only started doing recently. Back in Celtic times, I'm not sure if they did that or not; the systems I'm thinking of are somewhat more recent. But even though most of the systems have similar basic attacks and parries, everyone (of course!) uses a different numbering system, so your teacher might have her *own* numbering system of basic attacks/parries that she came up with over the years. (Again, my knowledge specifically of Celtic sword play is nil, but I would venture a guess that their system wouldn't have been so formalized; that would be something the teacher would have integrated over the centuries, but I would think it rather likely.) Keep in mind that such systems of parries are also, of course, blade-specific, so some parries that work with very light thrusting weapons (parries with the hand in supination, for instance) would not work with a broader, heavier weapon, so beware of trying to adapt a particular parry system wholesale. In fact, especially if your heroine is small and slight, parrying with such a short sword might not be the best bet (especially if it's an enormous creature's claws); having her avoid and counterattack would probably be more realistic -- the parry systems are mostly with (relatively) more recent, longer weapons. Two opponents with 18-inch weapons might end up in some ways more like a knife fight, which is a whole different animal....
If you want to learn more, SCA is probably a better bet than fencing, though in my own personal experience most of the SCA people I have known have been far more interested in the *concept* of sword play than the actual history or the nitty-gritty of the fighting techniques (just my personal experience, no offence to SCA people who do study it in earnest). I would instead recommend consulting historians -- maybe a local museum has some weapons aficionados? -- and historical books/woodcuts/etc.. Nice historians are also often eager to share their knowledge and have often been at it a fair bit longer and more in depth than reenactors. Also, beware of what you read on the internet, as in my experience many sword lovers.... er, think they know a lot more than they do? (Not everyone, but it's a weird field like that -- I find a lot more people claiming historical inaccuracies with absurd vehemence than I do researching, say, historical weather patterns or something.)
Background: 10+ years sword fighting with a huge variety of bladed weapons, Eastern/Western styles both, and an interest in the relevant history....but I would not consider myself a historical expert, having studied the historical mainly to augment the practical, so FWIW and all that.
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And thank you again for all of this! I really appreciate it and I know it will come in useful. :)
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(Anonymous) 2011-11-13 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
Also, define "cut through anything." Sword sharpness affects swordfighting tactics. If the sword can cut through other swords trivially, for instance, you wouldn't bother much with defense maneuvers.
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I've been using a machete for play-fighting to give me an idea of what it feels like to swing something approximately that size. (The actual shape of the blade is more like this.) My character is taller than myself (I'm 5'2", she's 5'9") but I was still startled at how far a seemingly short blade actually feels when it's extending your arm, and how, um, swishy it is. I see what you mean about the weight carrying it forward.
She's probably not going to be going up against people with swords, at least not at first. What she's fighting against are giant predators whose offensive weapons are teeth, claws and tentacles. Basically another character tries to give her a crash course in not getting killed while she's learning to handle the sword. There is also an added wrinkle that the sword itself does some of its own fighting -- it moves her, rather than her moving it -- but it doesn't always do that. (It's complicated. Fantasy. >_>)
Originally I had intended the sword to be a two-handed broadsword (about a foot longer than it ended up), so the first move she learned was going to be a diagonal slice across her body -- starting over the head and swinging down to the left. I'm not sure now, though. I think it's more likely that she would be wielding it with one hand and carrying a shield in the other hand, at least going off ancient techniques. But I'm not sure if a shield would actually *help*, since she's not fighting bladed weapons, but rather animal attacks (for the most part). Agility might be more important than being able to block.
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I've been taking fencing classes in the "Adult Ed - PE" division of a local school system for four or five years now, and I love it. (Because it's through the school district, it's affordable, $10/class session; private clubs are out of my financial reach.) Of course what I learn in class is a combination of classical fencing (because our maestro is elderly and traditional; he learned in Europe) and modern sport fencing, not fantasy/historical/monster-killing fencing, but I can recommend it for fun and fitness and vocabulary! ;-)
It sounds like you're in good hands with
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Also, if you're fighting a wild animal, a shield is highly impractical. Shields in battle are meant for you to deflect your opponent's weapon attacks. Animals usually have the advantage of speed and weight. It's like using a shield to deflect a club, the sheer force behind it is what's gonna do the damage, and a shield won't protect you from that. Likewise, having a shield is not going to protect you terribly much from, say, the claw swipe of a bear. It's going to knock you over regardless, and probably break or dislocate the shield-bearing arm.
Anyways, I'm probably being very unhelpful here because my knowledge of sword-sparring is...uh...very hands-on. :) But if you can find an SCA or other group that does weapons sparring (including Chinese martial arts dojos...you'll be looking for people who teach "duan bing") that'll be helpful in giving you an idea of what's actually going on.
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Oh good, that was basically what I was thinking just based on logic/intuition, and it'll save me having to figure out how to work a shield into every scene involving the sword. *g* (There may be SOME situations she'd get herself into where having a shield would be useful, and learning sword + shield techniques are probably something I'll need to include in the next book, but at least I don't have to rewrite all my swordfighting scenes in this one.)
And the suggestion for contacting the SCA is excellent! Among other things, I suspect that SCA people would probably be DELIGHTED to talk about swordfighting in as much detail as I could want. :D I know there is a Fairbanks SCA, or at least that it existed when I was an undergrad 15 years ago, because some of my friends were involved with it back then. I'll go poke about on campus and see what I can find. :D
Thank you for the help!
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((((CONCUR)))))
When I was at the university I studied fencing and the standard rules of engagement for fencing are thrown out the window when it comes to intense SWORD fighting.
It is just NOT the same................
BTW one of the most interesting regarding fencing is in a Sharpe
episode and another in a Bond film Die Another Day.
I absolutely loved both.
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On the other hand, I was thinking that taking a fencing class or two might give me a better idea of what it feels like to hold and handle a sword, kind of like studying martial arts to get some idea of what hand-to-hand combat feels like.
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I really loved it and we were fortunate in having a master as our instructor, someone who had been around for awhile.
I also took archery to find out what it was like to draw a bow
and let me tell you, it is quite a feat.
I was quite fascinated when I watched the discussion and saw an interview
with Bob Anderson who is somewhat of an icon when it comes to the art of fencing. The LOTR actors were very very fortunate to have him.
BTW, I just learned that my sister did same when she was at the university for about the same reasons...........
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It has completely changed how I perceive television and movie swordfight scenes that I had watched a dozen times. Before I learned to fence, I perceived the sound of sword-on-sword as an attack; now, I automatically, instinctively (and correctly) register that same sound as a successful defense.
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FWIW, it occurs to me that if I were battling monsters and I had the opportunity to choose my weapon, I would probably choose a boar-spear or trident as my first line of attack. I would not necessarily choose a sword. Swords are great against other people -- especially other people wielding swords -- but when pre-firearms people went up against bears and lions and all, I don't think that they were packing swords, but rather pike/spear weapons.
Just a thought...
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Anyway, it is definitely a good suggestion, but it's something that I've already put some thought into, and decided not to do.
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If a sword is what you, as a character, have got, it's what you've got! But you might well at some point wish for a boar-spear with a crossbar to keep the dying animal from rushing all the way up the pole to you, or even just a pitchfork. Depending on from whom she's learning to fight, that person in particular might know what ordinary weapons suit each task, but that such restrictions don't apply to magic weapons? And if anyone else ever fights alongside her, those people, unburdened by magic destinies, would probably choose other weapons, and she would need to learn to coordinate her efforts with those choices.
Again, just musing, and of course I don't know the needs of your story! Good luck.
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The rest of the group of monster hunters use whatever weapons they're most comfortable with; for most of them, it's some combination of magic, guns, and improvisation -- if you're cleaning out a nest of giant magical centipedes, for example, flamethrowers are handy ...
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(Heh, and talking this out is helping *me* work it out, so thanks! It is definitely one of those situations where the explanation is being retrofitted to the existing situation, rather than the other way around ...)
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... and YES, WE MUST DO SOMETHING! at the very least we should get coffee or lunch some weekend (er, not this weekend because I plan to be holed up finishing edits on the novel, but perhaps next weekend ...?)
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I like College Coffeehouse, if you don't mind a walk down the hill ...?
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A friend of mine (
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For some other ideas on how sword fighting could develop from the typical hack-and-slash that this style of sword is usually good for, here's a link on the specialized training of Knights from the 15th Century. The swords were even longer then, and much heavier, but some of the same aspects of combat could probably be adapted for the shorter sword. http://www.realarmorofgod.com/sword-training.html
And is this the type of blade you're thinking about? http://www.knightsedge.com/p-34-the-celtic-combat-sword.aspx
Good luck researching! Alas, I must go to work. :/
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And yeah, the last link is similar to what I'm thinking of, at least in terms of the blade shape. The hilt is different, but it's been replaced a number of times. (I had written most of the novel before I did enough research to discover that the big broadsword I had been imagining was not at all the kind of sword that was actually used in Ireland in the time period that I wanted it to have been made, which led to a desperate scramble to rewrite all the sword scenes ...)
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