sholio | Cryoburn (the Vorkosigan-ness continues)

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Cryoburn (the Vorkosigan-ness continues)

So I finished "Cryoburn", because I figured I may as well skip ahead to the very latest book before I got even more spoiled for it than I already was (courtesy of my own inability not to read spoilers, so don't go feeling sorry for me or anything). Since I read 90% of it in one gulp today, I'm now experiencing that OW, MY HEAD, I JUST SWALLOWED A WHOLE BOOK feeling that you get when you eat an entire book without coming up for air, with a side of OW, MY EYES, because I read it online and I don't think my eyes appreciated that.

I really enjoyed it a lot, and I see what

brightknightie means about the series becoming less space opera and more detective fiction as it goes along. I also think this was a good one to read right after "Mirror Dance", because the two of them do in fact tie into each other in a lot of interesting ways.

Of course, most of my reaction to the book is focused on the ending. Even though I knew it was coming, it was still a giant kick to the heart with steel-toed boots, as I described it to

spark_force in a comment just now. I think it's actually one of the most affecting character deaths I've read, and he wasn't even a huge favorite of mine (I certainly liked him, but if you'd asked me which characters I was most attached to, he would've been below a number of others). And yet, it was tremendously painful, in part because it was so very understated, I think. The way it's written, you get the same shock and fade-to-white that the characters are experiencing in that moment. Also, it left me terribly ... afraid, I guess, for everyone else, because Aral and Cordelia are in many ways the heart of the series, and if they aren't safe, is anyone safe? Even though Bujold does occasionally kill characters, I think the fact that so many of the central, beloved characters have survived so many near-death experiences (or even actual death experiences, like Miles in "Mirror Dance") has lulled me into a false sense of security. And now I'm considerably more worried about everyone else's fate going forward. On the one hand, I'm delighted that she's still writing Vorkosigan books (and that I'm enjoying them again, for that matter), but the longer the series goes on, the more the protagonists are going to age and die, and I'm not sure how much of it I'm mentally prepared for.

On a pure "fangirl squee!" level, I was delighted to get both awesome Kareen in this book -- she's a badass business ninja, oh I love Kareen so much -- and a really sweet bonding scene with Miles and Mark at the end ... right before the book dropped an ANVIL on my HEART, of course. And this book made me fall really hard for Miles again ... I do love him, and seeing him through Jin's eyes in this book was a neat reminder of everything that is wonderful about Miles -- how good he is with kids, and all different sorts of people; the way he smiles a lot; the way he wants to help people. Actually, one of the things that hurt most about the ending, I think, was the implication that Miles had changed, that he wasn't going to be the same Miles going forward. I think I'm going to be a little bit wibbly and worried until we get a new book in which we see Miles ... I just want to know that all the things I loved about him are still there, that he isn't crushed or hardened beyond bearing by the double hammer-blow of grief and responsibility.

Oh, and for fanfic tags to the book, I highly recommend Treatment For Shock by Dira Sudis, a missing scene that picks up right where the book ends and helps to fill in a little of the gaping emotional black hole that it leaves you with. At least, it helped keep me from being a total basket case after the book ended. *g*

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I found Cryoburn really hard because even though I hadn't been directly spoiled as such, I'd seen interviews from a few years back with LMB about the next logical step for the series and I was just dreading what was coming the whole time (while telling myself, 'hey, no, it's okay, maybe it's not this book - it's not set on Barrayar, after all' siiigh). I think I need to go back and re-read it separated from that emotional context, and yet at the same time I don't want to, because it was difficult enough the first time - difficult enough in that it was very good, but oh, the characters. D: (Which is pretty much my exact stance on Mirror Dance, come to think of it. *g*)

Yeah, I knew it was coming so I was a little bit braced for it the whole time (and nervously watching the mentions of Aral for foreshadowing) and then when it happened, it still hit me really hard -- for one thing, because I was reading online, I had no idea that I was reading the last chapter, until the chapter ended and then all of a sudden I'm left going "Wait, what? what? WHAT?"

And yeah, this re-read has been the first time I've read Mirror Dance in its entirety since I first read it 15 years ago, even though I really loved it at the time, because I didn't think I could go through all that emotional stuff again. And I really enjoyed it the second time, and now I think I'm good for another 15 years. *g*

Oh yeah. And also Miles gets the news in the particular way he's always been afraid of.

And I fell for Mark a little more with the Fire Sale...renegotiating buying the company with the owner while an arson attempt was going on.

Yeah, like I said to

winter_elf in the comment below, it's masterfully done -- I think it's an incredibly well-written death scene, one that really captures the shock of having a loved one die. It's just so heartbreaking on every level, so much emotional nuance packed into such a short scene.

The literal fire sale - hee! Talk about taking advantage of the situation. :D

yea, even I haven't read the book and knew THAT spoiler.

It was the single most important thing the fans almost begged LMB at the kaffeeclatch, sometimes in indirect manners. One asked her if she'd write short stories to 'fill in the gaps' in a story/give back story (the answer was no), another asked why that way (her own father died suddenly and she wanted the same impact), would she do a book on the 'other side' of view/Cordelia (no, she said that was all she was going to write on it), another asked what would happen with Cordelia (Cordelia is going to have a great life, nothing else is going to happen to her. I got the impression LMB really identifies with Cordelia)

It is definitely a very impactful character death, one of the most affecting ones I've read, I think ... it's not only sudden, but it comes on the heels of a really happy scene, where the characters are together and safe and cheerfully relating to each other in a way that they rarely do -- and then, bam. ANVIL OF SUDDEN DEATH. And the book is over. I think she really captures the way that a family member's death hits you, the instant of shock and then she pulls the virtual camera away before we can get the catharsis of either grief or acceptance. It's very masterfully done. But painful, ow.

Heh. Funny that you've just finished Cryoburn - so have I. Um, I've been on a bit of a reading binge ... *g*

... wait a minute, didn't you just start reading the series two days ago or something like that? How many of them did you READ?!

Four days ago. And I've managed to burn through them all. (Well, there's one short story I haven't managed to get my hand on, but otherwise ...)

Like I said, binge-reading ... it gets me like that sometimes.

I'm guessing you must've liked them, then. :D

I enjoyed them. They're not hitting me in the fannish place, but it was great to be able to ... I don't know, dive in and stay in and just keep reading, without it being over so soon. (Most things are over too soon for me.)

A fun universe - I think I liked the worldbuilding most of all. I may go look for fic after all; the series itself touches the topics and tropes I enjoy only tangentially, but fic might be different.

(Didn't you say you used to think there was too much politics in it? I kept thinking there was far too little, and I'd have preferred a lot more politics and less personal drama. *g* Somehow fandom had managed to mislead me there - I'd got the impression via fannish osmosis that these books were much more complex and heavy, and not necessarily in a way I might have enjoyed. Instead, they turned out to be really enjoyable fast reads.)

Heh, and the funny thing is that I had remembered it being quite politics-heavy, though it's possible that it only seemed that way to me fifteen years ago ...

But, yeah, the worldbuilding is neat, and I'm deeply fond of the characters (as I'm re-reading the books, I'm discovering all over again how much I love them). I think what I love most about the series is how she takes a lot of standard sci-fi tropes and puts a very human face on them -- everything that deals with cloning (especially the whole "evil identical twin" idea; I adore how she handles that), the eight-foot-tall feline supersoldier who paints her nails and wants to be a much girlier girl than her appearance would suggest; and so forth. They're people rather than cliches, and I love that.

You're very right about the human face; I do like that very much too.

As for the politics, I can only give my own impression, and that is that most of the time, it's just used as scenery and plot device. I think possibly the most frustrating book for me in that regard was Komarr, which is set on Komarr, for fuck's sake, and still doesn't give much real voice to actual Komarrans (Brothers in Arms did better there with Galeni! And Memory, too, although it could have done with more Laisa.), instead giving us a detective story and endless focus on Miles's and Ekaterin's personal problems, which I personally found rather tedious. (Though not as tedious as Miles's manipulation-is-love campaign in A Civil Campaign. At least he got properly hit over the head with the clue bar there. *g*)

(Er, yes. I admit it, the Komarran situation interests me more than anything else, and Galeni is easily my favourite character in the series. I wanted much more focus on both than we ever got. *g*)

I meant to come back and reply to this, but never did. *facepalm* Although part of the reason why I didn't is because there are so many things I want to say to it ...!

First off, I don't think I realized when I read the books the first time (mid to late '90s) that the Komarran perspective on the conflict is seriously under-developed. I think you're absolutely right; it's an interesting shift in my own perspective on it, though, because in my early 20s I'd found it unusual and pleasing that she'd chosen to take the imperialist tyrant world (Barrayar) and make them the protagonists, with the "Butcher of Komarr" being a sympathetic figure and one of the main characters. I thought it was a nice turnaround from having the plucky rebels as the main characters, struggling against a faceless imperialist enemy.

Now that I'm older, of course, I realize that having the imperialists as the unquestioned protagonists is actually what happens ALL THE TIME in media all over the place. I do like the way that Bujold deals with war in general -- that there isn't really ever a "good" or "bad" side, that there are good and bad people on both sides, and wars aren't clearly delineated conflicts, but rather, drawn-out messes that nations muddle into and then muddle out of (kinda). It was an influence on some of my earlier sci-fi writing; obviously, reading the books was not the first time that I'd ever consciously understood that, but it really resonated with me, and still does.

However, since she spends at least 90% of our time with the Barrayarans as our protagonists, giving us the Barrayaran perspective on everything, it's really more lip service than something which is consistently demonstrated in the books themselves ... I think that when I read them before, I was filling in a lot that wasn't actually there.

Also, I haven't gotten to Komarr yet in my re-read and I don't know how I'll respond to it now, though my vague recollections of the book seem to jibe pretty closely with what you said -- mostly Barrayarans, no Komarrans really at all -- except that I didn't recognize it as a problem at the time, and now I do, so ... hmm, yeah, no idea at all how I'll respond to it. I expect it'll take me a looong time to get to that book, though, because Miles's romantic woes are hands-down the aspect of the series that I'm least interested in (as in, not interested at all, really), and what you've said here seems to bear out my vague recall of that book being almost entirely focused on that. Meh.

I disagree that the politics is mostly set dressing -- or, well, I guess I should say that it doesn't feel that way to me, but part of that, I guess, is that my interest in politics and political intrigue is virtually nil except in how it affects the characters. One of the recent books I reached on my re-read was "Cetaganda", and I found it pretty dull, because Miles and Ivan didn't really have a personal stake in the mystery (well, except for trying to stay alive) and I wasn't particularly drawn to any of the supporting characters. So for me, that book was like being stuck at a really long dinner party with a bunch of people I didn't really care about. *g*

Whereas "Cryoburn", say, was much more my style -- the whole situation with the attempted planetary takeover was, I thought, creative and interesting and, most importantly for me, filtered through a group of characters that I liked, whose fates I cared about. It was more about how the political events happening at the top were filtering downwards to affect the people at ground level (so to speak), and that's the aspect of it that is interesting to me, not the meetings and infighting and political negotiating that is presumably going on at the topmost level.

On the other hand, if you were reading the books to see the top-level negotiating and so forth, that would probably have been most displeasing!

And like I said, I do agree that the Komarran perspective is underrepresented in the books. I think a book like "Cryoburn", set on Komarr and taking place among the ordinary Komarran-on-the-street (like "Cryoburn" deals with the ordinary Kibou-daini-resident on the street) would be a lot of fun and something I hope she does write eventually.

Hee! So many things to say, indeed. Sorry, this got long; I'm going to have to split the comment ...

First off, I don't think I realized when I read the books the first time (mid to late '90s) that the Komarran perspective on the conflict is seriously under-developed.

I think I latched on to Komarr in an "oh, I want to know more about this!" way right back at the beginning when Aral was introduced as the Butcher of Komarr. Nothing much was done with it for a long time, and I almost forgot about it. Then came Brothers in Arms, which actually worked with it very well, between Galeni and Galen, and Miles right in the middle of the whole mess. I really sat up and paid attention there! (Oh, my fic kinks. *g*) So it was a real disappointment when we got a book actually called Komarr, set on Komarr, dealing with a Komarran plot (and a clever, interesting one) - and nothing really was done with any of it, and the book seemed mostly interested in Miles's and Ekaterin's relationship woes than in anything to do with Komarr.

Of course, now I wonder whether LMB is actually interested in any of the things I want most. She did say somewhere that she'd intended Brothers in Arms to be much more about Miles's relationship with Elli, and Galeni sort of snuck in and took over. Now that doesn't mean it was all accidental, of course, but I suppose it still says something about her main interests. *sighs*

in my early 20s I'd found it unusual and pleasing that she'd chosen to take the imperialist tyrant world (Barrayar) and make them the protagonists, with the "Butcher of Komarr" being a sympathetic figure and one of the main characters. I thought it was a nice turnaround from having the plucky rebels as the main characters, struggling against a faceless imperialist enemy.

I still like that turnaround, you know. I'm a bit tired of the usual variations on the "evil empire" theme, and I like it far better when the empire's sins are ordinary human ones. Not to mention that I like seeing a sympathetic take on what in the usual scenario would be the "evil collaborator". But what is rather frustrating is when that kind of situation is introduced and nothing's really done with it. Worse, when the characters start coming across as hypocrites, and not deliberately so. (Remember all those valiant Barrayaran heroes fighting the evil Cetagandan invasion? Only when Komarrans try the same thing, they're the ones who are wrong ... Not that the two situations are equal, but the bias is much there, and - at least to my eyes - it tends to be glossed over instead of acknowledged.)

mostly Barrayarans, no Komarrans really at all -- except that I didn't recognize it as a problem at the time, and now I do, so ...

Yeah, it's frustrating. Brothers in Arms does a lot better with giving Komarran perspectives with Galen and Galeni, but in the entire series there never seems to be any middle ground between "resistance" in the form of terrorism and full-out "integration" (which means submission, the way it's played). And a book whose main plot mcguffin is a nonviolent Komarran plot, set on Komarr, really was the one that should have given an ordinary-people view.

Miles's romantic woes are hands-down the aspect of the series that I'm least interested in (as in, not interested at all, really)

You and me both. *sighs*

Of course, now I wonder whether LMB is actually interested in any of the things I want most. She did say somewhere that she'd intended Brothers in Arms to be much more about Miles's relationship with Elli, and Galeni sort of snuck in and took over. Now that doesn't mean it was all accidental, of course, but I suppose it still says something about her main interests. *sighs*

Yeah, I definitely get the impression that LMB's priorities with the books are somewhat inverted from mine, with romance being at the top of her list, where for me, it's somewhere near the bottom. Her fantasy novels are also very romance-heavy, which works for me in some of them (Paladin of Souls) and bored me silly in others (The Hallowed Hunt). It's not that I dislike romance ... well, okay, no, actually, it's that I do dislike romance, as a genre. I quite like it as a subsidiary plot when the main plot is something else. But yeah, she's definitely WAY more into romance than I am, and not just romance in general, but the sort of trope-filled romance that isn't really my thing.

I still like that turnaround, you know. I'm a bit tired of the usual variations on the "evil empire" theme, and I like it far better when the empire's sins are ordinary human ones. Not to mention that I like seeing a sympathetic take on what in the usual scenario would be the "evil collaborator".

*nods* I like it too -- that is, I really appreciate that the "evils" of the empire are the sort of mistakes that people make in war, and Barrayar in general has so much nuance and history to it. But I think you're right about the weakness in how the conflict has been developed -- it's great that Barrayar has gotten enough development to make it more than just an aggressively expansionist nation of horse-riding aristocrats (or, alternatively, "the good guys", full stop), but Komarr hasn't been developed equivalently.

in the entire series there never seems to be any middle ground between "resistance" in the form of terrorism and full-out "integration" (which means submission, the way it's played).

Ha. Yeah. And the only major Komarran character on the "resistance" end of the spectrum (unless there were some in Komarr or other books I haven't gotten to yet) is Galen, who is a flat-out mustache-twirling villain. Galeni (who I really love as a character, by the way) moves himself from "villain" to "hero protagonist" by adopting a Barrayaran name, rejecting everything his father stands for, and moving completely over to the integration end of things. Not much nuance there.

Remember all those valiant Barrayaran heroes fighting the evil Cetagandan invasion? Only when Komarrans try the same thing, they're the ones who are wrong ...

Yeahhhhhh. I do think that to some extent, the author is aware of the characters' biases (I definitely get this impression in certain conversations the characters have about politics -- that Miles' negative opinion on democracy, say, is probably not shared by the author). And given that most of the main Barrayaran characters are fairly patriotic, it does make sense that they'd fail to be aware of their own blind spot. Except ... it's never challenged in the text, and the narrative deck is stacked to support the characters' biases.

Responding to both your comments at once ...

I think what I really mean is that the political and the personal (the character development) aren't integrated very well in a great many places.

I think this is an excellent way to put it! I hadn't really thought about it, but yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There is a lot of really interesting political stuff going on in the background, but it's a hit-or-miss thing whether it dovetails with the character development going on around it. Cetaganda would probably have been a much stronger, more enjoyable novel if Miles & Ivan hadn't been in it at all (so it was completely about the Cetagandans, and could focus 100% on their issues), or if Miles and Ivan had been more directly, personally involved in the political situation in the novel. Instead, it ended up feeling a bit like a filler episode in a long-running series ...

Yeah, I definitely get the impression that LMB's priorities with the books are somewhat inverted from mine, with romance being at the top of her list, where for me, it's somewhere near the bottom. [snip] It's not that I dislike romance ... well, okay, no, actually, it's that I do dislike romance, as a genre. I quite like it as a subsidiary plot when the main plot is something else.

For me, romance is at the bottom of the list unless I'm invested in the pairing, in which case it wanders up quite a bit. But I still prefer my romance ... well, I like the romance to be the emotional plot that goes with a well-developed action plot. (Of course, that tends to be the kind of romance that could just as well be written as intense friendshippy gen. *g*)

it's great that Barrayar has gotten enough development to make it more than just an aggressively expansionist nation of horse-riding aristocrats (or, alternatively, "the good guys", full stop), but Komarr hasn't been developed equivalently.

Exactly!

I do think that to some extent, the author is aware of the characters' biases (I definitely get this impression in certain conversations the characters have about politics -- that Miles' negative opinion on democracy, say, is probably not shared by the author). And given that most of the main Barrayaran characters are fairly patriotic, it does make sense that they'd fail to be aware of their own blind spot. Except ... it's never challenged in the text, and the narrative deck is stacked to support the characters' biases.

Yes, I think that's the problem - not that the author doesn't know her characters are biased, but that it's never challenged except a) by outright villains or b) as a brief humorous interlude that then gets ignored. (Cordelia rolling her eyes and saying, "Barrayarans!" isn't quite enough. *g*)

The closest we got was with the Komarran plot in Komarr, and that got brushed away with what amounts to, "LOL, you think that's a nonviolent solution? Silly Komarrans." So much more could have been made of this.

It'll be interesting to see how the next book goes. (LMB said yesterday that it should come out in a year. Long wait ...)

Yeah, it's frustrating. Brothers in Arms does a lot better with giving Komarran perspectives with Galen and Galeni, but in the entire series there never seems to be any middle ground between "resistance" in the form of terrorism and full-out "integration" (which means submission, the way it's played).

Thank you for this: integration vs. submission. It encapsulates in a word what I've been trying to get in a fic about different Komarran views on integration, and, yes, that's it *exactly*: Duv didn't integrate, he *submitted*.

Yes! And he does it for reasons of his own, but that doesn't change what it is.

Okay, and here's the rest ...

I disagree that the politics is mostly set dressing

No, you're right, I didn't put that quite right. Sometimes it is merely set dressing, but in other places there's a lot of it and it still doesn't feel quite right. Cetaganda is a good example for that. I think what I really mean is that the political and the personal (the character development) aren't integrated very well in a great many places. In some books it works perfectly - Shards of Honor, Barrayar, Brothers in Arms, Mirror Dance (which I'm rereading right now, btw) ... and in others it just doesn't, and the political plots turn into set dressing (Komarr) or free-float without any real grounding in the characters (Cetaganda).

Even Cryoburn isn't quite perfect (not that much character development for Miles, really), but everything else is very well integrated, and the planet Kibou-daini is very vivid and alive through the varied characters and their stories. (Unlike Komarr, as you say. Yes, something like this was pretty much what I wanted for Komarr, except with a more personal stake for Miles, given who he is).

I think a book like "Cryoburn", set on Komarr and taking place among the ordinary Komarran-on-the-street (like "Cryoburn" deals with the ordinary Kibou-daini-resident on the street) would be a lot of fun and something I hope she does write eventually.

Your word in LMB's ear! :D

I just finished Cryoburn....just JUST finished and am sorta in tears, both over finishing the series and, well, Aral and since I can't really talk to Neechan yet 'bout it thought I'd bug you...

HOMG, I LOVE this series! Can't believe it's taken me so long to get around to it and all it's wonderful chars. Oh Miles, oh Cordelia, and Aral and Ivan and Gregor and Mark and Ekaterin, all of them! So many beloveds and just...so fantastic and...oh but the end of Cryoburn hurt! A LOT! And I knew it was coming, even...just not how. Only that Aral was dead by the end of that book...which meant, closer I got to the end, more I was dreading it, but still, OH GOD! IT HURTS! As you were saying above, understated and yet, or because, so beautifully done. So fitting. I'm glad she did the drabbles, at least. Reading an interview, apparently at first she wasn't even going to have those, but the first responses she got from betas all insisted on at least something. But still, OUCH! (At least, though, Aral did get to see Miles reach full adulthood, alive...or well, mostly, and his grandkids, which is a comfort, but STILL)

Also painful because in an interview just recently, she says that other than an Ivan book she's been working on for a while, which sounds like it may not have Miles in it on account of him trying to hijack the plot when she gave him a brief bit (OH MILES, you cause even your author grief! ^_- *snort*), and is set few years before Cryoburn, she has no immediate plans to write more in the series and is not sure if she ever will! *whimper*

I mean, I really liked Croyburn, but I don't want that to be the end...I want there to be more Miles, to see him as a father, to see his further development with...with, well, EVERYONE! His family, his brother, Gregor, his friends...EVERYONE. I want assurances that losing his father at this time hasn't changed him too too much...

Oh god, I see a lot of rereading in my near future!

...also, TV watching...I've done very little but read this week. Well, did fit in some job hunting and some socializing and such...but yeah...mainly reading. SO. GOOD! ^____^

Yeah,

xparrot said that you'd finished Cryoburn! (AARGH why is that word so hard to type, I never get it on the first try. ^^;;) It really is a kick in the stomach, even though I'd known about Aral's death since late last year, so I had a lot of time to get used to the idea. And it still hurt!

I'm glad she did the drabbles, at least. Reading an interview, apparently at first she wasn't even going to have those, but the first responses she got from betas all insisted on at least something.

Awww man! I'm glad her betas prevailed. The drabbles cushioned the blow a bit (... only a bit, but better than nothing). It makes me sad to hear that she's thinking about stopping, but I've actually been expecting her to stop for a while -- ever since she started working on other series, every new book comes with a general air of "last novel in the series" to it (I seriously did think she was quitting after Miles married Ekaterin -- and then new books kept coming out!). So there again, I guess, I've been used to the idea for a while, even though I do hope she allows herself to get wooed back to it eventually ...

I mean, I really liked Croyburn, but I don't want that to be the end...I want there to be more Miles, to see him as a father, to see his further development with...with, well, EVERYONE! His family, his brother, Gregor, his friends...EVERYONE. I want assurances that losing his father at this time hasn't changed him too too much...

YES, THIS! I think the thing that bothered me most about the ending, actually, even more than Aral's death -- which has been coming for some time -- is the implication that Miles is severely, irrevocably changed by it ... that he's not really "our" Miles anymore. Optimistically, I think that's an exaggeration -- he's just been hit really hard by his father's death, and he's also changed a lot over the course of the series anyway, so it's not as if he's going to be completely unrecognizable. But I still want the reassurance of seeing him post-Cryoburn and knowing that things are going to be okay, that *he's* okay. ;_;

On the other hand, I'm so caught up in the world and in the characters, I don't think there could ever be "enough" -- I'm always going to want more!

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Cryoburn (the Vorkosigan-ness continues)

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