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*gets can opener, opens can of worms*
And now that I've got the crossposter set up ... how about some meta?
So. Shipping. What is it to you? I suppose I mean, what do you mean when you say that you ship characters A & B?
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy? That you think they should be together in canon? That you can't stand the thought of A with anyone other than B? That you feel they are obviously destined for each other and anyone who thinks differently is wrong?
I've been thinking about this lately, because since I stopped reading John/Rodney (long story, please don't take this as a slam against the pairing; I just don't think it's for me anymore, for a variety of reasons), I've been reading a considerably more diverse array of pairings. Gen has always been where my heart is, but I also like to read a pairing fic here and there ... sometimes to have more to read, sometimes just because I want variety, sometimes because the story looked good and there's a pairing (or twelve) in it. And it's interesting to see what a variety of interpretations of canon you get in different shippy areas of fandom, as well as the various ways that writers choose to explain or establish the pairing. (I'm using "shipping" here to cover romances involving characters of any gender or, for that matter, any number of participants -- OT3s and OT4s included. If you don't use the word that way, I'd be interested to hear about that, too!)
I don't consider myself a shipper of any of the couples I write in SGA. I mean, I've written Rodney/Teyla for a couple of years now, but I definitely wouldn't say that I ship them (not only because they're both with other people in canon, though that's part of it, but I can't in a million years imagine them actually going for each other -- even though I find them cute as a button and like to write it). Perhaps the closest I come to shipping anyone is Rodney/Jennifer, mostly because a) they're canon, so I feel like I have to at least acknowledge the pairing in anything I write past early season five, and b) so many writers break them up that I feel rather protective of them. But I don't think I would have paired off the characters if the relationship didn't exist in canon, and I don't really feel the need to give them a relationship in AUs unless it fits with the plot.
But it's not that I never ship a couple, because I ship Roy/Riza in FMA like a crazy thing. I certainly won't be heartbroken if they don't become an official couple in the manga, but I would be very sad if one of them dies or -- and this, I guess, is where I think I tip over into active shipping -- if one of them pairs off with someone else. For most shows, I can read almost any pairing (breaking up canon couples is about the only thing that I have trouble with) but with Roy/Riza, I can't really enjoy pairing fic that pairs them with someone else. (Which is a problem, since so much of what's out there is Roy/Ed.)
In SGA, I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated by how different the different segments of fandom are -- in their tropes and characterization markers and just generally how they write the characters and view the source canon. Obviously there's individual variation within each shipping faction as well (and gen, too) but there's also a certain sameness to the way the characters are usually written, and the kinds of stories that seem to be popular. I suspect this probably happens in any fandom -- it's certainly been true of all the ones I've been in, at least the ones where I've been active enough and multi-shippish enough to see more than one side of it.
Anyway! Because I don't usually think in terms of couples, I'm really curious to hear from people who do gravitate towards couples (ships, pairings, OT3s/OT4s, whatever) to know how you relate to the couples you read and write about, especially when they aren't an established couple in canon (which nearly all of "my" couples in the past have been).
Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
So. Shipping. What is it to you? I suppose I mean, what do you mean when you say that you ship characters A & B?
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy? That you think they should be together in canon? That you can't stand the thought of A with anyone other than B? That you feel they are obviously destined for each other and anyone who thinks differently is wrong?
I've been thinking about this lately, because since I stopped reading John/Rodney (long story, please don't take this as a slam against the pairing; I just don't think it's for me anymore, for a variety of reasons), I've been reading a considerably more diverse array of pairings. Gen has always been where my heart is, but I also like to read a pairing fic here and there ... sometimes to have more to read, sometimes just because I want variety, sometimes because the story looked good and there's a pairing (or twelve) in it. And it's interesting to see what a variety of interpretations of canon you get in different shippy areas of fandom, as well as the various ways that writers choose to explain or establish the pairing. (I'm using "shipping" here to cover romances involving characters of any gender or, for that matter, any number of participants -- OT3s and OT4s included. If you don't use the word that way, I'd be interested to hear about that, too!)
I don't consider myself a shipper of any of the couples I write in SGA. I mean, I've written Rodney/Teyla for a couple of years now, but I definitely wouldn't say that I ship them (not only because they're both with other people in canon, though that's part of it, but I can't in a million years imagine them actually going for each other -- even though I find them cute as a button and like to write it). Perhaps the closest I come to shipping anyone is Rodney/Jennifer, mostly because a) they're canon, so I feel like I have to at least acknowledge the pairing in anything I write past early season five, and b) so many writers break them up that I feel rather protective of them. But I don't think I would have paired off the characters if the relationship didn't exist in canon, and I don't really feel the need to give them a relationship in AUs unless it fits with the plot.
But it's not that I never ship a couple, because I ship Roy/Riza in FMA like a crazy thing. I certainly won't be heartbroken if they don't become an official couple in the manga, but I would be very sad if one of them dies or -- and this, I guess, is where I think I tip over into active shipping -- if one of them pairs off with someone else. For most shows, I can read almost any pairing (breaking up canon couples is about the only thing that I have trouble with) but with Roy/Riza, I can't really enjoy pairing fic that pairs them with someone else. (Which is a problem, since so much of what's out there is Roy/Ed.)
In SGA, I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated by how different the different segments of fandom are -- in their tropes and characterization markers and just generally how they write the characters and view the source canon. Obviously there's individual variation within each shipping faction as well (and gen, too) but there's also a certain sameness to the way the characters are usually written, and the kinds of stories that seem to be popular. I suspect this probably happens in any fandom -- it's certainly been true of all the ones I've been in, at least the ones where I've been active enough and multi-shippish enough to see more than one side of it.
Anyway! Because I don't usually think in terms of couples, I'm really curious to hear from people who do gravitate towards couples (ships, pairings, OT3s/OT4s, whatever) to know how you relate to the couples you read and write about, especially when they aren't an established couple in canon (which nearly all of "my" couples in the past have been).
Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
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When I say John/Cam is my OTP, I don't mean "I can't stand the thought of them with anyone else", because John/Ronon is my other OTP. *g* And I enjoy Teal'c/Cam, Sam/Cam, John/Teyla, Ronon/Jennifer, etc. I want more of the dynamics that fascinate me, I want stories that tell me more about the characters I love. One of the reasons I stopped reading McShep is that there was too much, "well, of course they get together", and I don't even mean MFEO fic. With other pairings, you have to work to make them work, if simply because you're writing "against fandom". I like that kind of careful construction.
In SGA, I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated by how different the different segments of fandom are -- in their tropes and characterization markers and just generally how they write the characters and view the source canon.
Yes, exactly! John/Cam is still a tiny pairing, but there are enough of us now, and enough fic written that we've developed our own tropes and markers. One popular "fanon" (more of a premise, really) is that John and Cam have a history--Afghanistan or pilot training, etc--which allows us to add depth to a relationship that had 5 minutes of screen-time!
how you relate to the couples you read and write about: I consider Or To Take Arms one of my best stories, and it's John/Ronon, but still gen. The three episodes I explore/use in that story are "Trinity", "Miller's Crossing", and "Be All My Sins Remember'd", all Rodney-heavy eps. "Trinity" had the Ronon-Teyla B Plot, but there's not much Ronon (and even less of Teyla) in the other two eps. And what I wanted to do was write within canon, but also around it. I kept the characters as close to canon as I knew how, but explored them in a way canon never bothered to. I wanted to hear what Ronon had to say, as a native of the galaxy dealing with culturally clueless allies.
It's what I do with my John/Cam fic too, in a way, which often involves post-series John leaving Atlantis to return to Earth. That's, like, anathema to most SGA fans--they can't imagine John leaving Atlantis willingly, let alone happily. But I try to write this, and try to make it make sense given John's personality and background. It's a challenge I enjoy. Not all John/Cam writers take this tack, but a few have.
As a reader, I'm far more flexible. I've noticed, however, that the stories that ping my brain the most are ones that work against canon/fanon or explore neglected pairings, which often is the same thing (e.g., Ronon/Jennifer).
do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
I don't care if people don't see John/Cam: it's hardly a surprise considering the lack of canon. I do get frustrated when the canon John/Teyla subtext gets , though, such as the first scene of "Search and Rescue". (OTOH, I've done as much with Jack/Sam, so I suppose I understand the impulse to pretend a het pairing isn't being hinted at or even outright made canon.)
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
No; that is, the overall characterisation stays the same (my John is fairly consistent, I think, at least in my head) but their priorities are different. John in John/Ronon has no reason to leave Atlantis; John in John/Cam does. I haven't written a Ronon/Jennifer fic yet, but the Ronon in Live While You're Alive would be pretty much the same whether he hooked up with John or Jennifer. But who they're with means their choices, how they'll express themselves will differ (e.g., sparring in the gym and non-verbal communication vs a more traditional courtship).
Okay, I'm stopping now, phew! Hope this made sense. ETA: Omigod, you must hate me. I'm so, so sorry for the multiple edits. I keep re-reading my comment and noticing how poorly I've expressed myself :(
no subject
One of the reasons I stopped reading McShep is that there was too much, "well, of course they get together", and I don't even mean MFEO fic. With other pairings, you have to work to make them work, if simply because you're writing "against fandom". I like that kind of careful construction.
Yeah, I actually started to write something along those lines in my post and then deleted it, because I couldn't think how to word it, but that's exactly the problem I've been having with a lot of McKay/Sheppard; it's not my only problem, but generally, yeah, an assumption on the writers' part that there's no need to "show their work" because the characters are obviously going to end up together and no other outcome is possible. (In fairness, I've also noticed the same tendency in several other pairings, including John/Elizabeth and John/Teyla.)
Which is not to say that every pairing story has to spell out and justify its logic, obviously, but it does sometimes seem like the more invested in a pairing that a group of fans becomes, the more they seem to view it as something inevitable and something that every reader would view as equally inevitable, which often makes it feel as if the stories are jumping straight from Step A to Step G and glossing over steps B-F.
For example, I really enjoyed John/Ronon for a while, but lately it's feeling to me like it's starting to fall into the same trap -- for awhile, there wasn't much John/Ronon but there were a handful of really brilliant stories that sold the pairing really well; now, it feels to me like it's already slipping into a "preaching to the choir" sort of mentality where the MFEO aspect is outweighing the canonicity of the story. (And there's also an undercurrent of Rodney-bashing in a lot of John/Ronon that bothers me too.)
Heh, I must admit that John/Cam is one of those WTF pairings for me, because I need more of a basis in canon than that. I was similarly WTF about the tendency to pair off Rodney and Daniel, even before they got screen time in season five, or John and Jack. I just can't seem to do that -- I mean, maybe on a lark if I'm writing an AU and mixing everybody's canon relationships up anyway, but usually I need some canon basis to work from. Which isn't to say that there's anything wrong with the pairing, obviously -- it's just not how my brain works. (Usually. I'm slowly learning to never say never to that sort of thing, because every time I make a blanket statement like that, an exception tends to come along ...)
It's what I do with my John/Cam fic too, in a way, which often involves post-series John leaving Atlantis to return to Earth. That's, like, anathema to most SGA fans--they can't imagine John leaving Atlantis willingly, let alone happily.
*nods* This is somewhere that I break with the majority of fanon as well. I think it's much harder for me to see the Earth characters (John, Rodney, etc) voluntarily severing ties with Earth and retreating to Pegasus than the other way around. I can be sold either way in a story, but ... well, this is another area where a lot of writers fail to show their work and justify their story decisions -- there are a whole slew of independent-Atlantis stories out there that assume that of course most of the major Earth characters would opt to stay in Pegasus and sacrifice their careers, without bothering to justify it in terms of the characters as individuals.
As a reader, I'm far more flexible.
Yeah ... me too; I'll read a lot more variety than I can effectively write. There are some pairings (Rodney/Ronon comes to mind here) that I really like to read but absolutely cannot get into the characterization headspace to write.
I've noticed, however, that the stories that ping my brain the most are ones that work against canon/fanon or explore neglected pairings, which often is the same thing (e.g., Ronon/Jennifer).
I love working against fanon but absolutely cannot work against canon, not directly at least. I like to shine a light on unexplored areas of canon, and I like fic that does that too, but there's a certain tipping point where it's simply too far away from canon (or maybe it would be more accurate to say canon-as-I-see-it). Which admittedly is a problem that I have writing Rodney/Teyla, since they're both canonically involved with other people.
One thing about writing, and reading, a variety of pairings is that it really makes you notice just exactly how individual each fan's view of a character's sexuality is -- not sexual orientation specifically, but even more importantly, who they'd be attracted to, and how long they'd been attracted to them. I don't know if there is any other area of a character's canonical personality and behavior that's so contentious and so varied. Another aspect of deeply embedded fanon in the McKay/Sheppard community is that Sheppard's gay -- not even bi, but 100% gay; it's so endemic that it was actually a bit disconcerting for me to start reading Sheppard het pairings and to be reminded that it's absolutely not canon at all. (You can make a compelling canon-based argument for it, but that's not the same thing as having it actually be canon.) But even leaving aside sexual orientation ... it's interesting how it changes the character dynamics if you see Teyla as pining for John, or simply viewing him as a close platonic friend; if you view John as crushing on Ronon for years, or on Rodney, or on Teyla, or on none of them. Or just what it says about a character that they'd hide a secret attraction for years, versus being up front about it. (To be honest, I think one of the biggest obstacles to me being able to view John/Teyla subtext as canonical -- as opposed to reading it in fic, which is a whole other thing -- is that I don't see canon!Teyla as the sort to wiffle around being attracted to someone for years without acting on it; in order to believe that of her, I have to shift my perceptions of the character. But obviously other fans don't have that problem, and it's yet another example of how none of us are watching the same show at all ....)
But who they're with means their choices, how they'll express themselves will differ (e.g., sparring in the gym and non-verbal communication vs a more traditional courtship).
*nods* Yes, this -- and this is one of the reasons why I've been more interested in writing and reading pairings the last couple of years, despite being mainly a gen fan at heart. You can reveal different aspects of the character through their sexual relationships and life partnerships that don't come out otherwise. And I definitely agree that you see different facets depending on who they're with. I think for me, it goes a step farther, to the point where the character himself/herself is slightly different depending on who they're with. As a random example of that,
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And because what I read and write about in fanfic is so different from what I like in canon, I don't have a problem with other couples in fanfic.
I don't think my characterisation changes based on who a character is (or isn't, if it's gen) paired with. I certainly don't mean it to. I play up different aspects of their personality depending on the story, but that can be different within the same pairing.
A story about John at school is more likely to have mathy!John whether he's paired with Ronon or Rodney, than a story that's not in an educational setting, for example. (I tend not to have John and Rodney bonding over math geekery (prime/not prime, etc.) as adults, because it's not a trope I like. They have plenty of other interests in common that don't make me feel like John has to be made super smart in order to be worthy of Rodney's notice.)
However, stories I write about John and Ronon will probably be more sporty, because they like doing sporty stuff together, but Rodney is not a sporty type, so he and John are not going to be jogging buddies or whatever. But I don't think this is changing the characterisation any more than me doing one activity with one friend and not with another is changing my characterisation.
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*nods* That makes sense to me. I think it's kind of similar to the way that I draw my lines, too -- in my case, I'm not specifically drawn to queer couples, but I definitely relate differently to couples I like but don't see as canonically plausible (like Rodney/Teyla or Teyla/Jennifer) versus canonical couples that I like, or those that might plausibly end up together (like Roy/Riza in FMA). I don't think that I would consider myself a "shipper" of any couple that I don't think could plausibly end up together, because to me that's part of the definition. But I recognize that a lot of people don't use it that way.
I don't think my characterisation changes based on who a character is (or isn't, if it's gen) paired with. I certainly don't mean it to. I play up different aspects of their personality depending on the story, but that can be different within the same pairing.
This makes sense to me. I think that I do write them differently but it's hard to put my finger on what exactly the difference is (and made harder by the fact that a lot of my pairing fic is AU, like the Big Bang story, or written as a remix, or otherwise isn't taking place in canon per se). But I do think of, say, Rodney-who's-crushing-on-Teyla as a slightly different person from Rodney-who's-crushing-on-Jennifer; it's just difficult to figure out exactly what the difference is, except I know I think of them differently when I'm writing them.
I do see what you're saying about different pairings bringing out different aspects of the characters without changing their fundamental personality, though.
tl;dr omg so tl;dr
Interestingly, I think this is how I came to like the John/Rodney pairing, because I didn't really start out with the idea of writing slash exclusively (I still don't.) By which I mean that I gravitated to the slash side of this fandom because I didn't like the way the het writers characterized Elizabeth and John and Rodney early on (I can't say if they still do because I avoid Elizabeth/John het stories like I avoid poison oak, because I find it very irritating.) I'm not saying that what the het shippers saw in canon isn't there, but it isn't the aspect of canon that drew me in.
As you know, I do focus a lot on stories either with John and Rodney involved or as friends of the thousandth man variety, but I don't think of myself as a shipper. I'm not interested in converting anyone to that pairing or any other one. I don't fool myself that there's a deliberate subtext in the series canon or -- when the show was still being made in the case of SGA -- that canon would ever provide me with any validation or put my pairing together. I never watched with an expectation that what I would like would be what happened. I often display a preternatural ability to bond to the character destined to die before the end in shows and movies. It makes me cautious.
With Alias, I was fond of a semi-rare pairing but it was one that was possible in the future during the first few seasons from a both Doylist and Watsonian perspective (in other words, it was heterosexual). Eventually the over all plot precluded it when a previously ambiguous character became too villainous for the heroine to be paired with him in canon (and rehabilitating him in fic became an exercise in rationalization and retconning). By then I was so embittered over the writers of the show that I didn't care about any pairing.
Not going to go into other fandoms I've written in, but I think if I answer your questions from the first part of the post, I can defend why I don't identify as a shipper, despite having a favored pairing.
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy? Okay, in the case of John and Rodney, actually, yes. I react to them like I do to Benton Fraser and Ray Kowalski, there's a certain chemistry and fondness even in canon, that makes me believe in the friendship. That makes me smile and feel warmly toward them. But I have the same reaction if they display that closeness in a platonic fashion in a good gen story too. (Give me hurt/comfort where the smarm doesn't cripple the characterization and I am a happy, happy reader. Last week's Criminal Minds had Garcia and Morgan saying they kind of loved each other and I melted, and I don't want the show to put them in bed together or a romance. It's friendship-love and chosen family thing.)
That you think they should be together in canon? Most pairings I like don't even exist in canon. I'm still in touch with reality, thank you, I know that broadcast TV is not going to go where slash fanfic does, or any of the other tropes that push my buttons, not for another twenty years probably, and longer if the conservatives manage to set us back as a society the way they want to.
That you can't stand the thought of A with anyone other than B? Definitely no. I'm fine with pairing Rodney and John with many different characters, though there are a couple of common alternatives I happen to loath (John/Cameron Mitchell, John/Lorne, John/Elizabeth; I don't like Mitchell as a character, Lorne's a subordinate and the pairing does both characters a disservice, and, as I mentioned, characterization of a Elizabeth/John pairing always seems off to me.) I always had a soft spot for Elizabeth and Rodney, Elizabeth and Ronon, and when it doesn't make her lesser by having her stupid in-love, Teyla and John. Ronon and John. Teyla and Ronon. John and Vala. John and Sam. Rodney and Radek. Radek and Elizabeth. Threesomes, OT4 - though I tend to buy those more from stories where the expedition is cut off from Earth. Good writing and a sound plot and foundation can convince me of almost any pairing for the length of the story at least. If it's done well enough, I may even imprint on it and start seeing the connection possibility myself.
That you feel they are obviously destined for each other and anyone who thinks differently is wrong? I don't tend to think of pairings like that (the former), though I've come closer with SGA than any other fandom. It's probably a byproduct of all the quantum alternate realities that are canon, where the alternate versions of the characters are also interacting, so that as a viewer/fan it seems like yes, they are (all) destined to come together in some arrangement. As to the latter, everyone is entitled to interpret the canon as they like. It doesn't impact me and I shouldn't impact them.
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? No, there's no point to that.
Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree? I actually don't have them safe in my heart; canon can wreck a pairing for me. Canon McKay and Keller has certainly rocked my attitude toward writing John and Rodney, because I can't ignore it, I have to assimilate it into whatever plot I'm working on. It makes it very difficult for me to write post-canon slash and since my plots tend to really change events and characters, I find it hard to set anything during established canon, because I'd end up contradicting it. Mostly I'm writing AUs in consequence.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
You know, I like to think I'm writing them very canonically, but I suspect I'm not; I tend to write characters with flaws, often doing stupid or even malicious things because they're human or because they have responsibilities that make them be practical rather than romantic, and that is pretty much the antithesis to media heroic canon. I don't consciously tweak the characters, but I think every fanfic writer (hell, every writer on the shows too) tweaks them whether we mean to or not. I no doubt filter out or tone down the canon things that contradict what I like about the characters. That likely makes the characters better fits as a pairing, at least in my eyes.
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
I really don't think so. If I ever write a pairing, it's because I could imagine them together under the right circumstances, whether from love or lust. When I write them gen, the potential is still within the characters, only the circumstances are different. The friendship or the sexual attraction is present. I don't mean that the characters are secretly lusting, in-love in my gen stories or in denial, it's more like... John's a pilot, but he could have ended up a businessman. If I write him a a businessman, he's still the guy who could have become a pilot. I don't feel like I'm explaining this coherently, mostly because I know it on an unconscious level and haven't tried to articulate it for someone else before.
Anyway, I don't see myself as a shipper. I'm a rooter. I root for the characters I engage with to do well and be happy and have satisfying lives. Sometimes that's in a pairing. Sometimes that's a heroic death that everyone else mourns. I think I'm more about the characters than I am about pairing and that's how I differ from a shipper.
Re: tl;dr omg so tl;dr
*g* Yeah, ditto. Like I was saying at the LJ version of this post, for a lot of years I thought of myself as writing the canon versions of the characters, in whatever fandom I was in; it's only been through SGA fandom, and being exposed to a great diversity of different views of canon, that I've come to realize how little consensus there actually is on what constitutes canonicity, and that "my" characters aren't any more or less plausible than someone else's. (Well, okay, I must admit that there is a tipping point beyond which they might as well be original characters. But the exact place where that tipping point is, I think, varies fan by fan.)
It's difficult for me to move back and forth between writing characters platonic and not-platonic, because for me that's part of the characterization -- John-crushing-on-Rodney is a slightly different person from John who likes to play video games with Rodney but is looking for romance elsewhere. Still, obviously, that doesn't mean I can't move back and forth that way; I've written John/Rodney in the past, and I still enjoy writing Rodney/Teyla even though I prefer to see them as friends. It's not a natural thing for me to do, though. It always surprises me just a little when people say that they enjoy a given set of characters as both platonic friends and lovers, because I tend to have a clear preference one way or the other. I do see what you mean about John becoming a businessman but still having the potential to be a pilot, but for me the two aren't really comparable because I tend to have a very clear preference for one possibility as my preferred reading of the character over the other ... if that doesn't stretch the metaphor until it dies. *g*
I tend to be a total canon-whore myself, and because of that, I rarely have trouble incorporating canon events into my view of the characters. If it's something too huge for me to still enjoy the show (like, say, killing off half the cast, a la Forever Knight or Wiseguy) then "my" canon just stops at a certain point and everything beyond is AU; otherwise, it's pretty rare for me to have significant trouble adjusting my view of canon to accommodate a new pairing or the breakup of an old one. (I'm sure there are exceptions, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.) The thing that tends to alienate me from a pairing like nothing else is unresolved UST in canon, but (irrational as I know this is) my aversion to it tends to end when they resolve it one way or another. I think this is why I was adamantly opposed to the John/Elizabeth, John/Teyla and Rodney/Elizabeth pairings in season one of SGA, because I felt that there was UST for all three pairings that looked likely to be dragged out until the end of time, and it drove me nuts. After Elizabeth died and Teyla paired off with Kanaan, though, I found that my aversion to all three pairings pretty much went away. (I still find it difficult to get into John/Elizabeth, but I think that's more to do with the extremely sappy way it's usually written -- someone on the LJ side was talking about het pairings tending to be soppier than slash pairings, and I've definitely found that to be true in SGA fandom. Anyway, I've written it, so clearly I've made my peace with it!)
I'm a rooter. I root for the characters I engage with to do well and be happy and have satisfying lives. Sometimes that's in a pairing. Sometimes that's a heroic death that everyone else mourns. I think I'm more about the characters than I am about pairing and that's how I differ from a shipper.
I think that's a neat definition! I do tend to be more invested in relationships than in individual characters, but when it comes to endings, I'm usually more about the characters' individual happiness than the survival of the relationship or any particular tendency to pair them off. And, for that matter, I can accept a well-written but bleak ending, or a "blaze of glory" death, as easily as a happy ending if the author works hard to sell me on it. (In fact, I can think off the top of my head of one very good fanfic that did actually end in a blaze-of-glory implied-death scene that I loved -- and then ticked me off to no end by "fixing" it in a sequel, grrr aargh.)
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Thinking over my fandom experience, I believe I have different degrees of shipping when it comes to fandom.
Generally, shipping usually means "any pairings/threesomes/moresomes for which I like the dynamics as lovers/more-than-friends". It doesn't have to be canon, although it's nice when it is, and a relationship can be canon without being one of 'my ships' (eg. in SGA: Teyla/Kanaan, Rodney/Jennifer).
Specifically, "OTP" is my term for my favourite ship in fanon, what I prefer to read and write above all the others. Why is it my favourite ship? Probably because I like the female character best and this is the sexual relationship dynamic that works for me. Usually, it's canonically hinted at; I don't know, I haven't travelled through enough fandoms to say for sure that I'd have an OTP that didn't have a snowflake's hope in hell.
Generally, though, the female character hits my kink - a female character, usually an emotionally-reserved one rather than one who's portrayed as emotional or open-hearted. (Sam Carter, Teyla Emmagan, Guinevere, Faith Lehane, Ziva David...) And the dynamic with the male character also hits a kink for me - it's usually someone who balances her out in some shape or form - if he's the wanderer, she's his fixed star; if she's the kind to shoot first, he's the one to lay a hand on her wrist and say, "hold a minute".
Would I want my OTPs in canon? Yes and no. It would be an unreserved 'yes' if canon wrote them in the relationship the way I see them. But maybe a badly-written canon OTP is better than no OTP at all? I'm not sure - never had that happen in any of my fandoms. Ultimately, seeing my OTP written as I want is unlikely at best, because I always see the female characters as worthwhile, interesting characters to focus on, to develop, to examine, and to have succeed rather than the male characters - which very few show-writers (and very few fanfic-writers) seem to share.
Then there are ships for which I'd identify for as a 'shipper' - Ronon/Elizabeth, Ronon/Amelia, John/Teyla/Cameron. Again, I usually like the dynamics and it doesn't have to be canon, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that I don't have a particular emotional investment in the ship the way I do with my OTP. I'm not torn up about the fact that Ronon/Elizabeth were never canon, or that Abby/McGee broke up in S2 or something. I love them - they're cute and adorable and hot together, but it's no biggie.
There are ships for which I write, but don't identify as a shipper: Teyla/Rodney, John/Ronon, Rodney/Ronon, Teyla/Carson, Elizabeth/Rodney, Rodney/Keller. I can see the dynamics working in a relationship, but I suspect they don't hit my kinks.
Considering all this, I'm wondering a little, just how much of my determination to identify as a shipper is related to fandom's reaction to that ship. When I first joined SGA fandom, John/Teyla used to get hackles up beyond all reason. I think there's still a lingering sense of distaste about it - oh, sure, people don't mind the pairing, but there are very few people willing to identify as John/Teyla shippers, and many of those who do are into the het romance tropes of the pairing, which I'm not.
Ultimately, I don't know that I'd have identified so strongly John/Teyla if the first people I encountered hadn't been so scornful of the pairing or of the romantic-trope writing that dominates the fanfic and which is an issue in the writing of any large het pairing in fandom.
on writing characterisation and tropes.
In a great wash of irony, the female characters that I like - the emotionally reserved ones - are the least likely to fall neatly into the traditional het romance tropes, and yet that is how they and their relationships are most often written. This may very well be why I write a lot of stuff that's gen-with-het-overtones, because that's more the dynamic that I see than the outright romantic dynamic. A relationship should be a part of one's life, not the whole of it, and so I'm not crash-hot on the romance genre anyway.
I don't think I write the characters differently between my gen and my het; I might emphasise some aspects over others depending on what the story requires, but I don't know quite what you define as 'tweaks' vs. perspective differences.
eg. Some people see Teyla as "unwilling to put up with John's shit", which a) assumes that John has shit that is comparatively significant, b) that Teyla isn't willing to put up with it, c) that 'having shit' should be a considering issue when it comes to the people you love. Any one could be negated simply by: a) not seeing John's shit as any bigger than Teyla's shit (because living with the Wraith as your enemy your entire life only to discover that you're part-Wraith yourself apparently doesn't screw you up at all), b) not seeing Teyla as an Earth woman with a 'shit-o-meter' that's influenced by modern western feministic ideals, c) considering that all kinds of people on Earth 'have major shit' that they carry around with them all the time, and yet that doesn't seem to stop them loving and being in love, bringing up families, and dealing with both the shit itself and the stink it generates.
That's a perspective difference: I don't see John 'having shit' as an issue for Teyla, someone else thinks it is. I think I'm writing Teyla as a woman of Pegasus who has her own issues, but doesn't have Earth associations of feminism in her head and who doesn't care if John has issues; they think I'm writing her out-of-character.
As an interesting point, I know a lot of fans of my hetfic also read my genfic; I'm not sure the readers of my genfic also read my hetfic or, if they do, what they think of it since the readers I think of as 'genners' don't usually leave comments on my hetfic.
Generally, I get good comments about my characterisation in all my fics, so I guess I'm doing something right.
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That makes sense. I think that for me, the element of canon plausibility is the big thing that distinguishes "ships" from simply enjoying reading/writing about a set of characters in a romantic way -- so I wouldn't say that I ship Rodney/Teyla, say, because I can't realistically see that happening in canon, but I enjoy their dynamic in fic.
Ultimately, I don't know that I'd have identified so strongly John/Teyla if the first people I encountered hadn't been so scornful of the pairing or of the romantic-trope writing that dominates the fanfic and which is an issue in the writing of any large het pairing in fandom.
Ha, this makes sense to me because that is exactly what happened to me with Rodney/Jennifer. Overall, I'm pretty neutral on the pairing and the way that it was presented in canon (and I'll certainly be the first to admit that, like nearly everything else on the show, it could have been better written), but fandom's absolute determination to hate it and to break them up drove me into its arms and made me extremely resistant to fannish attempts to separate them or to hate on them.
I don't think I write the characters differently between my gen and my het; I might emphasise some aspects over others depending on what the story requires, but I don't know quite what you define as 'tweaks' vs. perspective differences.
I'm not sure either, to be honest. I've just noticed that when I'm writing characters in a romantic relationship, versus writing the same characters platonically, it feels to me like I'm writing slightly different characters, and I was curious if other people feel likewise or if it feels like you're writing the same character in both cases. For example, in canon I don't see Teyla being attracted to Rodney or even liking him all that much, so writing the
That's a perspective difference: I don't see John 'having shit' as an issue for Teyla, someone else thinks it is. I think I'm writing Teyla as a woman of Pegasus who has her own issues, but doesn't have Earth associations of feminism in her head and who doesn't care if John has issues; they think I'm writing her out-of-character.
Yeah ... I don't think there is any aspect of characterization that is as contentious and has so little fannish concordance as a character's choice of lover and their reasons for choosing them (or not choosing them). There is definitely some variance in how people see John, for example -- some like to woobify him pretty heavily, some play up the stone-cold-killer aspect, and so forth -- but the real disagreement comes when people try to hash out whether he'd sleep with Ronon or Elizabeth, Teyla or Rodney, Cam or Carson ... and why.
This is one of the reasons why I swung around from writing almost exclusively gen to writing more pairing fic over the last couple of years, because there is an awful lot of characterization that you simply can't do in gen. And while gen is (mostly) what pushes my emotional buttons, as a writer I like to explore those other areas too. I don't really have any desire to write happy curtainfic (and besides, most of the characters I write about don't do happy curtainfic anyway -- at least it's awfully difficult to imagine). Fandom definitely likes to go for the happy romance, though, and tends to sidestep the more complicated issues that are infinitely more interesting to me.
So, say, the mechanics of how two people meet halfway and deal with their respective emotional messes, the way that they merge their two different lives, is interesting to me. I've just started to poke at that with Rodney/Jennifer; thus far, I haven't really written anything that goes as deep into the psychological mechanics of relationships as I've become interested in doing.
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I do ship in some fandoms, like in Farscape with John/Aeryn, because I loved them together and of course they are canon, and the major pairing in the fandom too, but if the fandom offers multiple pairings for my favorite character I usually like at least two or three on top of gen rather than being committed to one.
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It's pretty rare for me to be emotionally invested in a pairing that isn't canon. I think SGA fandom has created a somewhat different fanning style in me, because previously I didn't tend to stay in fandoms very long -- I'd be attracted by a particular character or relationship or group of characters, I'd stay long enough to read all the fic having to do with them and maybe write a little of my own, and then move on. Staying in SGA so long has been leading me to explore different options, as my original interest in the show (in John & Rodney, and the team) has been dying away a bit, and leaving me with a desire to explore other types of emotional relationships than just team friendship.
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When I call something an OTP/3/4/27, I simply mean I enjoy that specific ship significantly more than others, but in no way does it mean I don't find other constellations okay at all.
When writing these characters, my characterization is normally consistent through all types of stories, because I write them as characters first, and as part-of-a-ship second. I may make tweaks to them that differ from canon over time (as an RPer, I tend to write a character for a long span of time in an ever evolving surrounding), but I always try to keep it to small things, that do not hugely change their personalities. After all, I ship them because I like their canon personalities.
(For example a character may be known to have outbursts of violence. In canon, it is vaguely implied that the reasons is that he is a sadist who enjoys the suffering of others. When I write him, he is a choleric instead.)
These tweaks rarely are motivated by the shipping though, mostly they simply accommodate personal kinks or squicks or interests of mine.
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*nods* This makes sense to me!
I think it's interesting how for me, changing who a character is sexually attracted to does change how I see them, in large or small ways. It creates a ripple effect of little changes that spreads out through the story, influencing their relationships with other characters as well!
These tweaks rarely are motivated by the shipping though, mostly they simply accommodate personal kinks or squicks or interests of mine.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I think we all tend to do this when we write characters, no matter how hard we try to stick to their canon personalities.
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Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
Depends on the definition of "shipping." If shipping means mere affection for a pairing and prizing it above others, then no, it doesn't necessarily mean dealing with fanfiction, actively and/or passively (which is not a particularly good term, in context, but you know what I mean). If an onscreen dynamic or occasionally the fanfic for it - hel-lo, John and Rodney! - makes me sit up and take note, think about them, have them take up residence in my mind, though - if only a little corner? - then, hell, yes; I'll do one, the other, or both.
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
Without plausibility in canon, I'm usually out of the door. I don't do minor characters; I don't do two protagonists who don't have a strong and lasting relationship on the show; I don't like writing against canon (which is a general Thing of Mine, not just a shipperific one).
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
I don't mind other fans - we are indeed a fickle bunch; it only bugs me that there is likely to be very little fanfic ;) - but I don't do well with canon going against my pairing. Mind the phrasing, man - it's totally not me, it's the damn show writers not seeing the beauty and clarity and...uh, where was I? Seriously, I had great problems in Season Five of SGA and with the...sci-fi kids' show I currently watch because I lovelovelove the female protagonist like burning, to avoid spoiling in comments.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
...is this a trick question? Both!
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
Food for thought. I would think so, for the above reason with caveats, but if anyone else here has read my stuff, I'd love to hear their take on it.
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I don't do two protagonists who don't have a strong and lasting relationship on the show; I don't like writing against canon (which is a general Thing of Mine, not just a shipperific one).
*nods* This is me all over. I can sometimes be wooed by a fandom-created relationship between characters (the best example I can think of is the totally fanon friendship between Gaila and Uhura in the Star Trek movie, which has no canon basis whatsoever), but usually it's the relationships in canon that draw me, and then fandom expands and deepens that ... rather than creating something from nothing.
"Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?"
...is this a trick question? Both!
Care to expand on that? I'm interested in how people handle this sort of thing. So what you're saying, basically, is that you write as close to canon as possible, but different aspects of a character's personality come out depending on who they're interacting with? (If I'm following you correctly.)
Late comment to late comment is, you've got it, LATE!
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Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
No. When I 'ship' a pairing, I support that pairing. But there are pairings I ship that I just don't care enough about to read fic - like, I ship Sig/Izumi, but I have little interest in reading fic about them.
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
Canonically plausible. I'm not one for crack pairings, and all the pairings I ship are pairings that have some canon subtext.
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
The other way around, definitely. The pairings I ship already have some canonical subtext/basis, so it's already pretty plausible to me and doesn't warrant any @#$%!. :P
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
I prefer as IC as possible, but in fanon, certain traits often get played up and/or played down...Depending on the trait, I might add some fanon, but I'm mostly into IC stuff.
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
I'm thinking back to the days when I kind of did, and I would say yes. The Draco in the Harry/Draco stuff I wrote was definitely a lot more receptive to the protagonists than in Blaise/Draco. :3 And when my OTP in Prince of Tennis became an OT3, the way I wrote the relationship dynamics changed as well.
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No. People who like non-canon dynamics are just as much shippers as people who ship canon or plausibly-canon pairings. For me ships are just pairings I really like. And OTPs are just really awesome amazing pairings.
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
No, because the dynamics I like almost never happen in mainstream canons. For example my OTP Snape/Harry was NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN in Harry Potter and the dynamics of which that pairing is an example of almost NEVER HAPPEN except in original fic online. Not everyone's character dynamic kinks are censor-approved ;)
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
No, for the same reason as above. Canon is a thing that will never fall in line with my desires. I think Shipping is more about "what relationship dynamics are interesting to me" than "who does this character belong with forever and ever" because that second doesn't have an answer, not even when canon or someone's fanon thinks it does.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
Characters aren't just one thing although they may seem like it sometimes in our heads, so it's inevitable that different parts of fandom are going to have different ideas, a lot of them valid, and congregate. I think it just so happens that they tend to congregate around ship lines.
There are characters who I think are more flexible than others, for example minor characters or even ones like Harry Potter. It's funny, for being the main character of a series for seven books, he's still really opaque to me. In my mind he's an agoraphobe with PTSD, but I've read him without it and easily believed it. I've read him as a hermit, read him as a successful businessman, read him as a father, read every version of Harry and I think most of them are plausible. He could grow up to be anything.
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
Yeah.. the dynamics of the two together will necessarily bring out different aspects of each character, but that's also because I don't think characters are just one thing that remain the same no matter what. I mean, even real people noticeably change in different relationships and they're not made up of text.
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Yeah.. the dynamics of the two together will necessarily bring out different aspects of each character, but that's also because I don't think characters are just one thing that remain the same no matter what. I mean, even real people noticeably change in different relationships and they're not made up of text.
I think this is one of the most interesting things about multishipping to me -- how the characters are appreciably different when they're with different people.
I tend not to think of a lot of what I do when I write pairings as shipping -- I just find the dynamic interesting or cute or whatever; it doesn't really go beyond that -- but one thing I was really curious about was how other people used that term. I think for me, it has stronger connotations than it seems to for you.
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I have some thoughts..... I must collect and organize them, but I'll be back. :)
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When I "ship" a pairing or moresome, it's usually because I can really see them working, at least if the circumstances allow it. I like to think of what would be going on "behind the scenes" of canon to get them to work together and, nine times out of ten, that is likely to be the foundation of anything I write with that pairing in it.
In all honesty, most of my pairings would be considered "non-canon" but, then again, that may be largely due to the fact that the canon for the fandoms I write in tend towards single het couples, and my writing does not. I prefer writing slash or moresomes if anything other than gen, but rarely anything explicit, and read mainly the same. I've found there seems to be certain tropes with each pairing and that they tend to annoy me after a while, so I try to switch things up if at all possible.
I've noticed slash fics tend to stress some of the stronger personality traits of the characters, and het fics tend to stress some of the more emotional side of things. Unfortunately, in my eyes at least, a lot of het writers tend to soften things up just a bit too much for my tastes and things start to seem out of character. It's probably just how I prefer to see the characters, and very likely a lot of het writers think the same about slash or moresome writers. I think it just comes down to how we see them and what we prefer, and that preference might change over time.
I try to keep the characterizations as close as possible whether I am writing gen or a certain pairing. I see the characters in a certain way, and tend to write them as such with the possible exception of the characters now being horny enough to do something about it. *g* If there are changes in personality, it might come down to trying to stress that character A sees these traits in character B that may or may not be highlighted in canon, but that would be a reason for why it would work for them to get together, if that makes any sense.
Rambly post is rambly, so I'll stop before I bore you to death now. :)
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I think this is one of the things I was wondering about the most, because this is where I tend to feel the most separated from shipper-fandom. I write and read pairings, but usually, unless the characters are an established couple, I don't really see one possibility as being much more likely than another. And yet, I see a lot of meta in ship-fandom regarding the characters' suitability for each other, or other characters' unsuitability, which makes me wonder how people tend to think of the canonicity aspect of it. (With, of course, the caveat that all fans are different ...)
I've noticed slash fics tend to stress some of the stronger personality traits of the characters, and het fics tend to stress some of the more emotional side of things.
I think you're right! Since I've been reading so much slash the last few years compared to the amount of het I read, it's really startling to rediscover just exactly how much curtainfic and babyfic and, like you said, soft fic there is for het pairings. I think you're right, it is very much a preference thing, and perhaps certain kinds of writers are more drawn to slash than het pairings, or vice versa.
If there are changes in personality, it might come down to trying to stress that character A sees these traits in character B that may or may not be highlighted in canon...
Oh, that's a very interesting point!
You're not boring me at all; I find this quite fascinating. :)
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However, I'm not a McKeller fan, and get annoyed when the fandom (not you, others) imply that it's because McSheppers only want to see them together. I thought Rodney and Katie were cute (not that they would have ever worked), and in that fifth season ep with the female team that got killed off, I thought the doctor that was 'crushing' on Carson would have been cute with Rodney. I recognize there's an abundance of McShep in fandom and get that can be annoying for people who don't like to read it, but...some people get so bitter about it. I don't personally like reading other relationships, but I just skip them.
This isn't saying YOU'RE being bitter about it, just something i've noticed in fandom.
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I think one of the things I've really been enjoying about reading a variety of pairings is the many different takes on the characters. Among other things, McKay/Sheppard was starting to feel very self-similar to me; the stories were all working from a very similar view of the characters and a small set of tropes. I don't think there's any pairing that can't be sold by a sufficiently clever take on it (though admittedly there are quite a few that I don't have any interest in ... like Carson/anybody *g*).
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"OTP", for me, is shipping a pairing exclusively - you don't want to see them broken up and you don't want them paired with other chars. The most basic definition of OTP I know of is that you're happy to see the chars together as a pairing, and unhappy if they're not together. While as when you ship chars, you're happy if you see them together, but you might or might not care about whether they're not together otherwise. I'd say the way you describe your shipping of Roy/Riza sounds like OTPing to me (with the understanding that you don't think of yourself as an OTPer!)
Me personally, I tend not to ship unless I'm OTPing, with a few exceptions; once I get invested enough in a pairing to actually care about it, I tend not to want to see it otherwise. I don't get frustrated with other fans who don't see it - to each their own, and we all have our own buttons and reasons why pairings do or don't work for us - but I will get annoyed with/depressed by canons which actively break up my preferred pairings. I'm usually more sanguine about canons which remain neutral on them - as long as the canon doesn't actually permanently divide my OTP, I tend not to mind dalliances.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
Interesting question. When I get into an OTP, I tend to view canon through that lens, focusing on the particular moments that further show how well-suited the chars are for one another; and likewise I will seek explanations or resolution for those areas where the chars do clash. And when I fic, I write to those interpretations of the chars, but I don't think of it as "tweaking" the canon personalities, so much as writing the variants on the chars that I most enjoy watching. But then, that's how I write all fic; I don't think there's any such thing as an absolute true canonical personality for a character. (For instance, in nearly any show, there will be some episodes which I believe are better depictions of certain chars than other eps, and there will usually be some eps in which I believe a char or chars act OOC; canon itself isn't always true to its chars!) I write the chars that I believe I'm watching, or that I wish I were watching.
This tends not to change whether I'm writing gen or pairing fic, or writing different pairings; I tend to have a preferred reading on a char and will stick to that reading, even though aspects of their personality might change depending on what circumstances I'm writing them in.
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As you already know about me, it's friendships that I get fixated on ... and not even always close friendships; I think I was (at the time) every bit as invested in Vegeta/Goku in DBZ as I am in John and Rodney in SGA, and theirs was a weird and thorny relationship with at least as much hate and resentment as affection.
Like we've discussed in the past, I often find that a "lovers" reading of the characters interferes with my preferred reading of them as friends. Or at least, it's not how I'm fondest of seeing them. I think that for me, it's much easier for me to accept and even (mildly) ship a pairing who aren't my favorite platonic character relationship on the show, because that way the friendship can stay how it is. Again, DBZ is a good example, where I loved Bulma/Vegeta and really enjoyed both the Bulma/Goku and Goku/Vegeta relationships as platonic. As a platonic relationship, though, there's not really a whole lot to B/V ... I can't really see them as friends if they weren't romantically involved. But there are definitely characters for whom their friendship is an important element of the romance for me ... I really like (canon) relationships in which the characters bond intellectually and then progress to a romantic relationship in due course. "Nerds in love" is really a big button for me! But not so much if I get invested in the friendship as a friendship and then it turns romantic ...
In short: I am contradictory. XD
Me personally, I tend not to ship unless I'm OTPing, with a few exceptions; once I get invested enough in a pairing to actually care about it, I tend not to want to see it otherwise. I don't get frustrated with other fans who don't see it - to each their own, and we all have our own buttons and reasons why pairings do or don't work for us - but I will get annoyed with/depressed by canons which actively break up my preferred pairings.
That makes sense to me! (And I can see how it relates to SGA. *g*)
In my case, my own canon-whorish tendencies are usually enough to overcome any antipathy that I may have had to the couple during the getting-together stage. I write from canon, I always have; and while I was kind of annoyed that writing Rodney/Teyla suddenly got exponentially harder right at the time that I got into the pairing, it wasn't a huge problem for me, but just required a mental adjustment and a willingness to work with AU.
Having said that, I tend to struggle with a gut-level dislike of seeing canon couples broken up in fandom, regardless of my feelings on the original couple -- well, okay, that requires a few caveats: taking a canon couple and separating them in order to explore both characters and take them down different roads ... I kind of love that, even if I liked the couple as they were. But breaking up a couple to pair one of characters off with someone else often gets my hackles up, especially since the character who gets the short end of the stick is usually the girl. This is the big problem I have with the micro-fandom for the Georgette Heyer book The Foundling. In the book, there's a couple -- a shy bookish girl, and her quiet bookish husband -- and then there's the husband's best friend. The fandom tends to be pretty much all about pairing off the husband and best friend, leaving poor Harriet, whom I love, out in the cold.
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So, shipping, when I have done it, has been when there wasn't a canon base, but, to answer your first question, I *do* think it needs to be canonically plausible. So, it could happen. (Of course, theoretically, anything can happen, but if two characters never interact on that sort of level, I have a hard time shipping them. Rodney/Teyla is a perfect example. I can't read it, because I can't see it happening. But Rodney/Sam, I could see, at least until Rodney/Jennifer).
As for your other questions: "If you start out writing a non-canon pairing...do you find yourself...getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way:...it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?" The latter, when it comes to fanon. If it's canon, I don't get frustrated by it, just sad. So, when I wrote M7, I often shipped Ezra/Inez. They had a relationship on screen, but, other than some looks when they first met, they never hooked up. I thought they were a bit of fire and ice, so I got a kick out of putting them together--more for the humor than anything else. But she was more closely paired with a different character on screen (though they never really hooked up either), and that one was far more explored in fic. Doesn't bother me in the least. Just because I like writing them my way, doesn't mean I think everyone else should see them that way.
Of course, it helps that the show only lasted a year on screen, so I never had to fight being "jossed" (as they say) by canon. That probably would kill my ship. There really is a difference for me about canon v. fanon. I can laugh off fanon. Canon, though, that's hard to ignore, and I usually find I don't. If Rodney and Jennifer had broken up on screen, I would have written them that way in my fics.
"Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple....?" I try to write as close to canon as I can. If I do tweaks, I don't do it consciously, but I think, anytime you write someone else's character, you're adding your own tweaks, whether your shipping them, writing gen, or any other genre. It's pretty much impossible not to. So...if I was doing *more* of that when I shipped my characters, I didn't notice.
As for the last question, I find I can't write more than one pairing. The reason is, I write linearly. I always have. I can't switch pairings unless I'm switching universes, writing an "AU" so to speak. Similarly, once we were in Season 5, I couldn't write Season 1 SGA. And even in an AU, I find it hard. I find it impressive that people can do that so plausibly. I just don't have that talent, and I'm jealous of those who can.
Last, and I don't know if this was the main question, but if you initially asked, why do I ship? Because it's fun. When I shipped Ezra/Inez, I found I could write layers of their personalities I'd never touched before (and that it could generate a laugh or two, which I liked). It's just another way to develop character, because, let's face it, we all change in the face of romance/love, and it's fun to imagine characters compromising their decisions in the same way it happens in real life. But I don't do it to make them mooshy, or because I thought they should be together in canon (though, lord knows, when fanon you create becomes canon, it is awesome), but simply because, yes, I thought they'd be cute together and it was fun to write. But, once I'd shipped them in my personal fanon, I couldn't then ship them with anyone else. So, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.
That's a long answer. Sorry about that.
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Yeah ... I tend to stick pretty close to canon myself. SGA fandom has been making me a lot more playful about poking at "what ifs" -- including AUs (something I was never interested in before!) and different ways of pairing off the characters ... but it's still extremely difficult for me to write something that directly contradicts canon, and I tend to think of it as a fork-in-the-road AU rather than being on the same footing as my canon-based fics.
I try to write as close to canon as I can. If I do tweaks, I don't do it consciously, but I think, anytime you write someone else's character, you're adding your own tweaks, whether your shipping them, writing gen, or any other genre. It's pretty much impossible not to. So...if I was doing *more* of that when I shipped my characters, I didn't notice.
I'm pretty sure I never did this prior to SGA, at least not consciously, but the longer I'm in SGA fandom, the more I've been wanting to do alternate takes on the characters. Again, I think AUs are a good training ground for this -- taking their canon personalities and then playing up or playing down various traits based on their AU history. But I'm finding myself increasingly less certain that I have a firm grasp on the characters' canonical personalities at all, which is making my characterization wobble a bit from fic to fic. And I think some of it is down to a shift in my perceptions as to how I characterize fanfic characters, period.
Years ago, at the time that I got into SGA fandom, I would have railed against the idea that there can be more than one canonically-plausible version of a character. Canon, I thought, was canon, and that was that. But ... I don't know; the longer I'm in fandom, and the more I talk to people and read different fic and see how many different ways there are of interpreting a single canon event, a single canon relationship, it's getting much harder for me to justify the idea that there's a "true", canonical way of characterizing someone. And this, I guess, is making it harder for me to justify always writing the characters the exact same way.
I do notice that stories which are closer to what I see as the characters' "true personalities" are closer to my heart, though. For example, that fic I posted here a little while back, the one with Teyla and Rodney trapped together with the data device ... I originally tried to write it for a Teyla/Rodney fest, but utterly failed at putting in anything shippy, and a lot of that had to do with how much I loved the story. It would have been entirely *possible* (from a strict writing-mechanics standpoint) to go back and rewrite bits of it to put in a relationship. But to me, it would've felt like ruining it a little bit. I loved the story too much to do that to it. I like writing Teyla/Rodney but, at heart, I don't believe it's especially plausible in terms of canon, which means that I felt like I'd be sort of ... hmm, the best way I can describe it is "wasting" an idea I loved on a story that wasn't very canonical to me. I'd rather take a different idea, one that wasn't so close to my heart, and built a new story from the ground up with the ship built in.
(more to come in next comment ...)
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I've read shit-tons of Sam/Vala fic, even though I don't really ship them at all. I both ship and read Sam/Janet and Sam/Keller. I read Sam/Vala because gay!Sam makes me happy like a very happy thing. So there's a draw there. But I don't seek it out because it's Sam/Vala, it's because of gay!Sam. The others, I seek out because of the pairing.
Outside of what fic you seek, I think it also has to do with how deeply convicted you are that your pairing would be a good idea/the best idea/the only possible idea. I've read and enjoyed Sam/Jack fic. I don't ship it, though, because I don't personally think they'd be a good idea. I can still like the fic, but thinking a pairing to be a good idea is usually a big part of shipping.
I can read and enjoy fic about couples I don't ship together. Even if I don't think they're canon-plausible, I can like it if it's well written.
Re: canon, I don't know that I think canon pairings can't be shipped, I just think it's less common. With canon romance to work with and around, there can be less avenues to play with. OTOH, the fights over Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel indicate that people do ship those pairings quite fiercely.
So I think it's possible to ship canon pairings. But I never, ever do it, because I've yet to meet a showrunner who I didn't think would fuck my ships up beyond recognition. I'll keep them safe in my sandbox, myself.
I can bend every little bit of (supposedly) platonic canon to fit the ship I'm in at the time, then bend it back when I'm writing a contradictory pairing. Subtext can be teased out or left alone at will. I don't need anyone else to see it, although it's nice if they do. I don't even really insist that there's even anything there, except insofar as my seeing it there makes it there.
Sorry for the babbling. I'd never really thought about any of this before.
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Hee! Excellent point!
But yeah, I do see what you're saying about canon narrowing the options. If two characters are together in canon, after all, there is only one canonical getting-together story, but fandom can write a million getting-together fics for a non-canon pairing (or a not-yet-together-in-canon pairing).
Is there much Sam/Keller? I ask because I've been wanting to read more SGA femslash, but it's really difficult to find; Teyla/Kate and Teyla/Keller is mostly what I've seen around. I'd welcome any good recs if you have some!
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It took me a long while to figure out that I vaguely ship, but pretty much only pairings/groupings that involve Rodney McKay.
I came into the fandom via McShep fics, so those have never seemed strange to me. I've tried reading all sorts of other pairings and groupings, and so long as the writing makes it make sense, I can buy some and like them (Rodney with John, with Ronon, with Teyla, with the team, with Sam, with Radek; the occasional Lorne/Parrish; if in the background, John/Ronon or Elizabeth/Steven Caldwell; a few others); I can buy some but not care for them myself (most other pairings, especially John with not-Rodney-not-Ronon); and I just can't buy others, regardless of canonicity (Rodney/Katie, Rodney/Jennifer, Teyla/Michael, Rodney/Todd, John/David Parrish). That said, I've read and enjoyed stories with pairings I didn't otherwise buy because the writer really made it work. I've written stories with Rodney & Jennifer still together or politely broken up, depending on the nature of the story. I don't really get particularly attached to pairings/groupings, but I do have a very strong resistance to certain pairings/groupings.
Outside SGA, I'm happy with Wash/Zoe but don't really care about most other pairings in Firefly. I don't ship the Doctor with anyone, ever; I'm happy for Jack to get as much action as he pleases, but I mostly don't want to see the companions up to much (especially with the Doctor), though I'm undecided as yet about Amy/Rory, and I want Sarah Jane to have someone romantically, since she seems to want that. The whole will-they-won't-they of Chuck/Sarah just annoys me, and I'm happy that seems to be settling down (and how cute are Ellie and Awesome?). In any of those, I can read ships that don't fit those guidelines, but I'm a tough audience. (No, I do not buy any scenario that has Awesome cheating on Ellie, kthxbye.)
Regardless of the pairing/grouping, I usually want an actual plot, humor, or character development. Schmoop!fic nauseates me (which is why John/Elizabeth came to be the first pairing I automatically skipped new postings for; I used to read everything, but all I ever got from J/E fics was fluffy domesticity or babyfic) and I have no interest at all in PWP.
And I'm just as happy with no romantic/sexual relationships at all. Give me a good genfic with strong emotional attachments, and I'm delighted. Nakama is my true ship, I think.
ETA: Argh, left out a big point. I try to write characters as close to canon as I can, but as others have noted, I'm playing up certain characteristics and down others depending on the story. I think the character's reactions depend on the scenario, and while I won't believe just anything about a character, I'm flexible about interpretations to a reasonable extent. And I know the showrunners would probably think I don't write a canon Rodney; I cannot write him as bumbling, clownish, and oblivious as they sporadically write him. Part of that is that he's a fortyish man who is extremely accomplished in multiple fields; part is that I've overcome a staggering amount of that kind of social obliviousness myself and can't put myself back in that mental space, of someone that completely unaware and unexamined. (And then the show has him point out his own character flaws, meaning he is aware of them, which means they don't write him consistently on that, either. Not that people are always perfectly consistent minute-to-minute anyway ... which gives both them and fic-writers room to play.)
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Ha, yeah, WORD to this; I was saying something similar over on the DW version of this post and it's nice to know that the perception of J/E as a very schmoop-heavy branch of fandom is not just me. I'm open to the idea of the pairing, but have yet to find one that I actually liked (aside from a few more subtextual, UST-leaning ones with a lot of Rodney friendship -- I've always adored pairing-plus-outside-friendship dynamics).
Regarding canonicity ... I struggle with that. *g* I know that I tend to write characters closer than they are in canon, in most of my fandoms. SGA has kindly obliged by giving me, in the last couple of seasons, at least a few characters who are unambiguously as close as I've been writing them since season two. I've generally thought of myself as writing characters based in their canon incarnations, but realistically, I know that no two people are going to agree on a particular interpretation of a character. I suppose that's one of the cool things about fandom, because we can pick and choose the fannish interpretations that we like -- to stick with your example, we can seek out the writers who don't write Rodney as bumbling and ineffectual, or shrill and unlikable, or, depending on personal preference, maybe the bumbling ineffectual version would be preferred ... rather than being stuck with just one somewhat inconsistent canon version.
Give me a good genfic with strong emotional attachments, and I'm delighted. Nakama is my true ship, I think.
*g* Yeah, me too.
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I rarely read pairings I don't ship, and I don't write that at all, but the difference is: shipping = I want these people to be together (because something about their dynamic just clicks for me); merely reading = I could see these people together, but I don't care whether they are or not.
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
For writing, it definitely needs to be canonically plausible; for reading, I'll occasionally read pairings I wouldn't consider plausible because they bring out something in one of the characters that I like to read about.
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
My shipping isn't affected by other people's opinions or interpretations; if something speaks to me, it speaks to me. But I wouldn't go so far as to say I never get frustrated. It is frustrating to be alone with your preference, no matter what it might be.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
As close to canon as I can, for the most part. The characterisation needs to ring true for me, except in rare circumstances when I'll write something totally self-indulgent that's designed to hit one of my kinks. (That rarely ends up posted or even fully finished, though.)
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
No. Or rather, different pairings may bring different aspects of a character to the foreground, but all those aspects are still present in that character at all times, if that makes any sense. :)
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I think this is how it breaks down for me, too, although in my case canon plausibility is also a factor -- that is, I think I'd hesitate to say that I ship two characters if there's no chance they could become a couple in canon (like Rodney/Teyla). And I rarely ship characters who aren't together because usually what sells me on a pairing is the presence of the pairing in canon, which probably mean that I rarely ship at all; it's just not really how I'm wired. But there are exceptions (like Roy/Riza).
No. Or rather, different pairings may bring different aspects of a character to the foreground, but all those aspects are still present in that character at all times, if that makes any sense. :)
That makes sense!
I think it's interesting how for me, it does seem to change the essence of the character to orient them romantically to someone different, at least a little bit. Which I guess makes it a little more comprehensible to me that some people have pairings they just can't write. Interestingly enough, I have pairings I can't read, but I don't think I have any that I couldn't write -- I've written several that I don't think I'd read (like, say, Carson/Ronon for remix one year). But I've heard people say they could never write [xy], or that they won't read a story if pairing [xy] is in it, even a little bit.
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I am a complete and unrepentant 'shipper. 'Shipping is what interests me in any sort of story: canon, fanfic, made-up-in-my-head. When I was a little girl and sheltered and pedantic, I rarely got into stories with just boys because there was no chance (I thought) of romance. (Just girls was okay, because I'd relate to the characters in other ways. But boys were pretty much for the kissing. *g*)
But I consider "shipping" to be:
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy?
... in a totally fanning way, or ...
That you think they
shouldwill be together in canon?... in a more meta way.
Meta: I love figuring out what couples are going to form in a given story or tv show. I'll have my preferences, but I learned to not take it too seriously so as to not sour canon. (From "BtVS" when Oz arrived and was too adorable to label an usurper for long (ditto Tara for that matter). And from "Harry Potter" when I could see the Harry/Hermione folk heading for a serious crash.)
With meta, I'm working strictly with what canon gives me. So even if the pairing doesn't strike me as all that (I eventually had problems with most of the HP couples that I saw coming down the pike) it is what it is. And that's how I'll discuss it. It'll only get passionate if a character I like(love!) gets bashed (or if I think someone's being willfully wrong) ... but I'm working on that. ;)
Fanning: With fannishness, where I ♥ a pairing I doubt will ever show up in canon, I try to not let my shmoopy reading affect my more clinical meta reading. For example: I adored the idea of Buffy and Spike together (I think after he made that "monster in your man" comment, because it was truth), but I could not, could not, could not, see them actually hooking up in canon. Heck, there was even an episode where magic-made-them-do-it that I thought just underscored how wrong they were in actual canon. (I will forever adore Joss Whedon as a storyteller because he made their eventual 'ship work. And it was a job and a half.)
So while I enjoyed McShep in a fannish sense, I tried to keep it from affecting the way I looked at canon. (There was some creep. I have a very hard time seeing John as heterosexual. By this point I see him as more gay than straight, with only a specific type of woman attracting him at all. I stubbornly blame Joe Flanigan and suspect him of sneaking in subtext. To this day!) Which meant I adored Rodney getting his love stories. Because in canon I just don't see him romantically in love with John and he seemed to really want to be in love. (For this reason, my two top SGA ships are McShep and McKeller, which unsurprisingly leads to a few headaches.)
Then there's character analysis where I'll enjoying seeing/thinking about how characters would act if they were in a relationship with other characters. I think this has been talked about in other posts. Just briefly: Mulder is a slightly different man with Scully then with Krychek then with Skinner. Woosley brings out a different side of John than Rodney does. Depending on how deeply that aspect of the character pings with me, it could become a new 'ship. At the very least, it's tons of fun to ponder. :D But I wouldn't expect everyone to jump on board, see it as plausible (heck, I wouldn't argue plausibility canonwise for most of the mashups), or even agree it could ever happen no matter the tweaks. The fun there for me is in the imagining.
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And I'm responding late, so we match. *g*
I love figuring out what couples are going to form in a given story or tv show. I'll have my preferences, but I learned to not take it too seriously so as to not sour canon. (From "BtVS" when Oz arrived and was too adorable to label an usurper for long (ditto Tara for that matter).
Interesting! I think that for my part, I try not to think too much about it because I don't want to get too set on a particular outcome (either for or against the pairing) and then get too frustrated when it doesn't happen. Being me -- i.e. contrary and sort of aromantic -- I seem to get set against a pairing more easily than I get set for it; I had that happen to me in season one with both John/Teyla and John/Elizabeth, and had to fight against that in subsequent seasons. So I tried not to do it with either Ronon/Jennifer or Rodney/Jennifer, but to just relax and take them as canon gave them to us ...
So while I enjoyed McShep in a fannish sense, I tried to keep it from affecting the way I looked at canon. (There was some creep. I have a very hard time seeing John as heterosexual. By this point I see him as more gay than straight, with only a specific type of woman attracting him at all. I stubbornly blame Joe Flanigan and suspect him of sneaking in subtext. To this day!)
*laughs* Me too. *sigh* And I really have NO idea how much of that is what I'm actually seeing in the show, and way, way too much meta that played up a queer reading of the character. (For that matter, I have a really easy time seeing him as asexual, too; a friend of mine sold me on that reading pretty hard.)
Because in canon I just don't see him romantically in love with John and he seemed to really want to be in love.
That's actually a very plausible reading of Rodney. In fact, to some extent I think he's in love with the idea of being in love -- or, well, for a long time I've thought that Rodney was very fixated on the whole romantic ideal of having a wife and kids and a suburban house and all of that, while being blind to the fact that it would be terrible for him to actually do that. I see both Rodney and Jeannie as having been indoctrinated with a lot of 1950s-style baggage about gender roles and marriage. Jeannie, I think, has made her peace with it and figured out how to get it to mesh with the lifestyle she wants to lead. I don't think Rodney has. I think on some subconscious level he's still chasing after an impossible ideal, a housewifely wife and 2.5 kids -- which in reality is not at all what he either needs or wants (as evidenced by the fact that the #1 thing he actually finds attractive appears to be a woman's brains -- ALL of Rodney's attractions in canon, that I can think of, are to smart or scientist-type women, even the one-episode flings).
Mulder is a slightly different man with Scully then with Krychek then with Skinner. Woosley brings out a different side of John than Rodney does. Depending on how deeply that aspect of the character pings with me, it could become a new 'ship.
I think that's what draws me to multishipping, really. Being in love with different people brings out different aspects to a character. I find that very interesting!
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With canon, though I've always said I'm a canon junky, I think the more precise definition for me is "what you (I) see is what you (I) get." I take what canon gives me, imperfect as it is, and work with it the best that I can, but I don't look any deeper than that except for what canon hasn't given us (Ex. Sheppard's mom, Sheppard's childhood, etc). I was open to John/Weir for a little while because of episodes such as The Long Goodbye, but not deeply since she was his boss and the show hadn't expounded on it. The show hinted at John/Teyla, so for a while I did have John/Teyla leanings as someone John would/could eventually get with. Now with both Teyla and Elizabeth out of the picture, my leanings are for a female OC or Nancy (more Nancy, because she seemed to still care for him, and I like the idea of them getting back together should her current husband leave her (my personal scenario ;))). The show was quite adamant about John and Rodney liking girls (and Ronon had had Melena) therefore a male pairing is out of the question.
However, having a lack of OTP isn't why I don't write ship. It simply doesn't interest me, at least not enough to write something (although I have toyed with the idea of writing something just to pair poor John with someone, either Nancy or an OC - though the OC thing I did do, didn't I ;)). Romance I save for original fic, and even then, so far, it's pretty light. As to why I don't read ship, that's more to do with me being too particular. There have been a few het stories that I've enjoyed (via recommendations), but in those the pairing aspect was light; it was important to the plot, but wasn't the center of the plot's universe and didn't bog me down with UST drama and sugary schmoop (so I will give ship an occasional chance even though I don't actively seek it out).
I don't know if this contributes in any way or is me just rambling. Apologies if it's rambling :/ but I found the topic interesting and it made me go all thinky ;)
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Hee! Knowing you're a confirmed non-shipper, I was kind of surprised to see you answer this question. :D
But your answer makes sense. I really loved your John/OC story, and I think the low-key nature of the relationship was the key there (and, also, I could really see John going for the character as you depicted her). I am not really into romance in general, but it's way easier to sell me on it if it's subtle and well-integrated with the story. (Another good example I can think of is "East of the Sun, West of the Moon" by dossier ... have you read that one? It's mainly a John story, but there's a running subplot of Rodney/OFC that's very understated and well-integrated with the story; I'd hesitate to even call the story het rather than gen, but the relationship is definitely there. It's just not what the story is about.)
So, yeah. This definitely makes sense!