sholio | Miscellaneous fannish things

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Miscellaneous fannish things

I know I can't handle writing for it this summer, but I signed up as an artist at

atlantisbigbang. :) I loved illustrating

siriaeve's story last year, and I'm looking forward to what this year will bring! Signups for writers and artists/fanmixers are open 'til April 12th. From glancing at the signups, they could really use more gen writers. *pokes flist*

I was reading this interesting post on "slut-shaming" and monogamy in Star Trek fandom, and the thought occurred to me that in all my fic-reading, I can't think of a single time that I've seen an open relationship portrayed positively in fanfic. There's happy poly fic, but in every one I've read, the unspoken assumption was that the characters were faithful within the poly relationship, or else it's portrayed as a one-off in an otherwise monogamous relationship. So now I'm desperately curious: has anyone run across stories that show characters in a consensually open relationship, in SGA fandom or otherwise? Because surely they must be out there somewhere ... I guess? I just find it interesting that it'd never occurred to me how strongly fandom conforms to that particular social norm.

... dammit, I know there was something else I wanted to post here, but I don't recall. I'm way behind on comments; I haven't lost interest in the timelines discussion, I just haven't been able to find time to answer comments! But I do want to get back to it; perhaps I'll fit it in after I finish my homework and today's writing quota.

ETA: And the thought occurred to me while I was answering comments to this entry ... who's written open relationships in the Stargateverse? Me! Multiple ones in the same story, even. Which probably means there's a lot more of it out there than I'm noticing -- I'm just failing to remember it or possibly to recognize it as such when I see it.

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I tend to use open relationships a lot in RPF because it's that or just handwaving an AU in which the spouses don't exist, because I have a hard time writing cheating. I don't write it so much in FPF because...well, it's usually not where my mind goes, for some reason even though I'm actually poly and in an open relationship myself.

Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's more common in RPF than FPF for those reasons. Also there were a lot of open relationships in the Establishment because writing a monogamous pairing in a kinky sex club RPG meant you didn't have a whole lot of opportunities to write with other people!

*nods* The RPF thing totally makes sense, although I hadn't really thought that it might be different between RPF and FPF ... that's really interesting!

I love reading alternate relationships, and I'd be really interested in fics with an open relationship, but I can imagine it would be hard to establish without overwriting the whole "No, really, they're not just kidding themselves!" aspect — just because that assumption is so entrenched that many readers will likely assume it. Sounds challenging. I don't tend to write much by the way of foregrounded romance/sex relationships, but that's something I should stash in the back of my head in case it can hook up with a plot back there.

From glancing at the signups, they could really use more gen writers. *pokes flist*
::fingers in ears:: LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU ...

It's something that I had actually not thought of before, with regards to fic. I've definitely read threesomes and moresomes, but usually it's either portrayed as something that's only a one-time thing (owing to special circumstances -- drugs, aliens, last night on earth, etc) or as part of what's implied to be an exclusive relationship.

I don't actually think it'd be that hard to establish, but I do think it's something that's unusual enough within our (Western) cultural relationship parameters that you'd need to see the characters negotiating it in the story, if only in a passing "You? Really? Hey, me too!" type of exchange.

Hmm, interesting!

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've read at least one Man From UNCLE fic in which Illya and Napoleon had a positively-portrayed open relationship -- they were together, and for the long-haul, and were secure enough in how they felt for each other that they both knew that enjoying some sex with someone else didn't detract from that. Unfortunately I can't remember what fic it was, so I can't provide a link!

And now that I think about it, as I think back to all the fic I read from when I did my first MUNCLE-fic binge-reading, MUNCLE fandom in general is pretty good about being positive about having multiple sexual partners. Napoleon is generally seen as quite the ladies' man, getting together with quite a large number of the Innocents of the Week, and quite a few fics didn't denounce that -- Napoleon enjoyed himself, the girls enjoyed themselves, and that was all that mattered.

But otherwise, wow, I'd never realized just how pervasive "slut-shaming" is, because the idea wasn't previously on the filter through which I read fic. I'm going to be looking out for it a lot more now!

xparrot reports the same about MUNCLE fic, which is nice to hear! :D I don't read in the fandom, so it's nice to hear that. Like I just commented to her, in the fandoms I've been which had characters who were flirtatious or canonically tended to have multiple sex partners, the fic typically has them become monogamous and faithful when they settle down with the OTP. And while there's nothing inherently bad or unrealistic about that, it's not the only way in which a relationship can be framed.

But otherwise, wow, I'd never realized just how pervasive "slut-shaming" is, because the idea wasn't previously on the filter through which I read fic. I'm going to be looking out for it a lot more now!

I really hadn't thought about it, either. It's interesting how many more things fandom's brought onto my radar!

...well, I don't make a big deal about it, but in pretty much all my MUNCLE slash they're in what's technically an open relationship, as I can't imagine Napoleon settling down with one man/woman/whatever for a good long time yet, and I also can't see Illya really getting jealous. And I imagine Torchwood fic has Jack in open relationships, as otherwise he'd be outrageously OOC?

I think a lot does depend on the characters, at least for me; I know making a char gay who appears as straight in canon can be considered OOC, but I find making a monogamous-in-canon char polyamorous even harder to develop in my mind - these days open relationships are more outside social norms/expectations than homosexuality, I think. Case in point, I know of very few TV shows that have positive depictions of open relationships (there was one in a recent ep of The Mentalist - a scientist couple with a daughter who both had "affairs" in which everyone was fully aware of the situations, and the couple in the end was portrayed as sincerely in love. But that's very much an exception...)

I know of very few TV shows that have positive depictions of open relationships
It wasn't until I saw your comment that I remembered another example: The episode of Eureka in which David Nykl guest-starred. Jack assumed Nykl's character (let's call him Adam) had motive to kill another scientist (let's call that one "Bob") because Adam's wife and Bob were known to be having an affair. When confronted, though, Adam just shrugged; he knew. When asked if he was upset, he asked why he should be — Bob made his wife happy. I don't know if it counts as a truly open relationship for purposes of this discussion, but it was at least a gesture in that direction. Iliked that touch.

Ironically, I realized in the middle of answering comments that *I've* written open relationships before, for SG1 (see ETA to my OP ... and how's that for an excessive quantity of acronyms in one sentence).

That's cool about MUNCLE! Typically in fic I've seen it go the other way, where a character who is flirtatious or a "ladies man" or otherwise sexually forward in canon becomes monogamous when they fall in love -- everyone from Kirk to DiNozzo tends to be portrayed that way. Which isn't necessarily unrealistic either, but it's cool to hear that MUNCLE doesn't always do it that way.

And I imagine Torchwood fic has Jack in open relationships, as otherwise he'd be outrageously OOC?

Actually, in my admittedly peripheral glimpses of Torchwood fandom ... not so much. Either they're committed in a soulmates4evah sort of way, or Jack's cheating and Ianto's all woobified about it. And I remember a lot of anger in the fandom over that bit with Jack and ~~George~~ Midshipman Whosisface in DW -- a lot of people were upset because he wasn't being faithful to Ianto even unto death! (But having said all of that, I know there are people on my flist who are way more into TW fandom than I am, so maybe they'll stop by to set me straight. *looks around*)

I know making a char gay who appears as straight in canon can be considered OOC, but I find making a monogamous-in-canon char polyamorous even harder to develop in my mind

... is it really any different, though? I don't know how it works for other people, but non-canon relationships for me aren't hugely hung up on canonical plausibility -- they're pure what-if. I kinda had to work myself to that point in order to enjoy them at all -- as you know, I was a very pure canon gal for a lot of years, and it's taken a lot of fannish evolution for me to swing away from that. But I don't think that "would this character do [x] in canon?" is the question that matters to me if I'm doing the extra-canonical what-if thing; instead it's "under what circumstances could this character do [x]" or "what factors have to change in order for this character to do [x]" or more simply "here is the universe in which this character does [x]".

...these days open relationships are more outside social norms/expectations than homosexuality, I think. Case in point, I know of very few TV shows that have positive depictions of open relationships...

I really don't know if I'd say less acceptable; I think it's a false comparison. They're different. But I do think you're right that representations of open relationships on TV are vanishingly rare -- to the point that I can't actually think of ANY on shows that I've seen. Which is interesting, given how many shows have canonical love triangles or characters cheating on one another -- but it's always treated as something that has to resolve in favor of either monogamy or a breakup. That's cool about the Mentalist episode! It's too bad there's so incredibly little of that.

I do think polyamory has become much more prevalent in fanfic over the last few years ... maybe even the last 2 or 3 years. Or maybe I've just become more aware of it.

I've never actually read any TW fic, and could never get into a Jack/Ianto OTP anyway, because it requires so much of a fundamental denial of who Jack is...

...OTPs do play into this; a lot of fans have no interest in reading about sex between people who aren't madly and dedicatedly in love. I'm in this category myself, really; I don't mind the idea of certain characters being in open relationships, but I only really will care about the central OTP relationship, and the others will just be window dressing anyway.

... is it really any different, though? I don't know how it works for other people, but non-canon relationships for me aren't hugely hung up on canonical plausibility -- they're pure what-if.

Fundamentally, no, I don't think making an assumed-monogamous character polyamorous is any more OOC than making an assumed-straight char gay - but for me personally, yeah, I find it harder to do...

...Well, actually, I guess it depends on the char. Some chars I see as monogamous for whatever reasons, and others I see as polyamorous, and others I see as either possibility. But then, I'm the same way with slash; I don't tend to slash pairings that I don't find plausible in a certain way. And maybe I find slashing chars easier simply because I'm more motivated.

I really don't know if I'd say less acceptable; I think it's a false comparison. They're different.

Ah, I didn't mean less acceptable, just more outside the current North American norm. This is mostly based on personal experience outside of fandom - even with my liberal, open-minded friends, I'd found that explaining that a friend of mine is polyamorous takes more time than explaining that a friend is gay, and tends to be met with more...hmmm...incredulity? Most people these days have no trouble believing that a man can be attracted to another man (whether or not they approve) but a lot of them do find it difficult to believe that someone wouldn't mind 'sharing' a partner.

and could never get into a Jack/Ianto OTP anyway, because it requires so much of a fundamental denial of who Jack is...

Uh, really? Why? I mean, I don't ship them myself, but I don't think this or any pairing is fundamentally against who Jack is. It's only if you write it OOC - but then, that's true of any pairing.

Oh, I meant "OTP" in the traditional sense - One True Pairing, that Jack would only truly love Ianto and no one else. I totally believe that Jack loved Ianto dearly, and that they could have worked for a long time as a functional pairing; but to me OTP means a particular sort of unique, exclusive relationship, and I can't really see Jack like that with anyone. (Except maybe the Doctor, and that's a special case...)

Oh, that's interesting - I never took the term OTP to refer to exclusivity. Maybe because my first OTP was Kirk/Spock and I never did see Kirk as monogamous, LOL.

My own Jack OTP is Doctor/Jack, actually, but no matter how intensely I ship them I don't see that as a monogamous relationship at all. It makes no sense to me that way, for either character - and I don't feel the fact that they're not exclusive with each other takes anything away from specialness of the "one true" ship. Maybe the other way round, actually - there may be other relationships, other loves in their lives, but this one is something special. *g*

OTP is kind of an old-school term - it originally meant the one pairing that you as a fan loved above all others (across all fandoms), and then one's favorite pairing in a particular fandom, and nowadays just tends to be used for any pairing you like...

To me, OTP does imply an exclusive relationship, which does not necessarily mean sexually monogamous - but it means that it's unique, more important in some way than any other relationship in the character's life. Something special, as you say. Which is why I have trouble seeing Jack in an OTP with any mortal being, because the relationship will be so fleeting compared to his lifespan. The Doctor has enough immortality about him (practically if not literally) that I can see them as OTP (though I don't personally see their relationship as sexual at all; I like my Doctor asexual! ^^)

But then, my personal definition of "OTP" is odd anyway, and the way I use it, a lot of fans don't really have OTPs; it's a particular fanning style, no better or worse than any other preference.

Actually, in my admittedly peripheral glimpses of Torchwood fandom ... not so much. Either they're committed in a soulmates4evah sort of way, or Jack's cheating and Ianto's all woobified about it.

Alas, you're right. It's why I rarely read TW fic any more - I just don't recognise Jack in that. :(

Thanks for the confirmation -- I'm not closely involved in TW fandom (I read meta much more than fic, and even then, it's more when I'm in the mood) but that was the very strong impression that I'd gotten from Jack/Ianto fandom ... that they apply what you might call classic OTP dynamics to characters who just aren't made for it.

that they apply what you might call classic OTP dynamics to characters who just aren't made for it.

That's a really good way to describe it - a common fannish pattern superimposed on the characters. I'm a complete OTPer myself, in nearly all of my fandoms, but I feel very strongly that the relationship needs to fit the characters' personality, and this just doesn't.

But how do you know that a character is 100% monogamous? Just because someone is in a monogamous relationship doesn't mean they themselves are monogamous. It means that in that situation they've decided to be with one person. Or maybe they are doing stuff on the side and it's not shown on TV because TV doesn't go into their sex lives.

I mean, there was an episode of Brothers & Sisters where Kevin and Scotty got approached for a threesome and they were kind of excited yet freaked out about it and in the end decided not to go for it, but that's certainly the only time I've ever seen it brought up but then shot down. (And even then, you could have them rethink it and try again sometime or whatever. People change.)

Ahh, I didn't explain myself clearly - I didn't mean to imply that making a char polyamorous is somehow more OOC than making them gay - just that I personally find it harder to do. Depending on the char - because there are some chars I do read as polyamorous, and find the idea of them being presented as 100% monogamous completely OOC. Jack Harkness is one such; so is Captain Kirk, for that matter.

...Though really, when you get down to it, there's relatively few chars who I do read as strictly monogamous in nature. There are quite a few more who I see as socialized monogamists, but I could imagine them getting into a polyamorous relationship. But then, slashing characters works the same for me; there are some chars who I see as strictly heterosexual for whatever reasons, but most chars who canon presents as assumed-heterosexual I can see more flexibly. I guess what it comes down to is...I'm weird in my fannish interpretations? ^^;

Yay for signing up as an artist for

atlantisbigbang!! I really enjoyed your art last year.

So far we've got 7 gen writers with 2 possibles; we really could use more. But I'm also counting it a win that we've got so many sign-ups. :D

I can't think of a single time that I've seen an open relationship portrayed positively in fanfic.

Now I want to write this. I've written poly relationships (not in SGA, but in my own fiction) but never a truly open relationship (by which you mean people have relationships with each other that are honest and caring but do not make definite commitments to each other, am I correct?), and it would be interesting to try it out in SGA fic, I think. After Big Bang and Gen Ficathon.

It looks like more gen writers have signed up as time's gone on! I think that there were only 2 or 3 when I counted a day or two ago. (Not that there can't be more. *bounce*)

Now I want to write this. I've written poly relationships (not in SGA, but in my own fiction) but never a truly open relationship (by which you mean people have relationships with each other that are honest and caring but do not make definite commitments to each other, am I correct?), and it would be interesting to try it out in SGA fic, I think. After Big Bang and Gen Ficathon.

Yeah, that's what I meant -- caring relationships in which the characters consensually have sex with other people.

Like I noted in my ETA, I think there's probably more of this around than I'm currently noticing, because *I've* actually written it, but I hadn't really thought of it as such at the time (though that's exactly what I was describing). It's definitely rare, though -- and now that I've realized that, I think I'm going to stash that in my little writer's bag of tricks to pull out if needed.

*eyes bigbang info post*

40,000! O_O

*eyes post again*

Oh heck, why the hell not?

*enables* :D

You're evil. And yet, I do not mind!

I've read some, but I think it is not common because the main fannish interest is in the pairing, so there is not much pay off for having them also sleep with random other people. It's a bit more common if the other person is used in the context of the pairing, like I've read a Kirk/McCoy fic in the reboot verse which has a D/s relationship that starts out as McCoy talking with Kirk about whom Kirk should try to pick up, and it evolves into basically McCoy picking partners for Kirk and detailing how they ought to have sex parallel to their relationship developing and later on there is voyeurism? Basically McCoy enjoys to order Kirk to have sex with lots of people and sometimes watches, sometimes not, but I'm not sure this really is an "open" relationship.

*nods* I think you're right that that's the main reason -- most people in fandom (outside gen fandom, obviously -- and even within gen fandom quite often on a platonic level) seem to be very invested in a particular couple, and don't get the same thrill off seeing them with other people.

I do try to write Jack Harkness that way, although so much of my DW/TW fic is tightly focused on Jack and the Doctor, it doesn't even come into play. Well, I did write Precedence ... but that's the closest I've come so far.

Actually, this has made me rethink my TARDIS Big Bang fic - I think I'm going to focus much more explicitly on that aspect of Jack's characterisation. :D *starts plotting*

Edited 2010-04-06 19:16 (UTC)

Actually, this has made me rethink my TARDIS Big Bang fic - I think I'm going to focus much more explicitly on that aspect of Jack's characterisation. :D *starts plotting*

Ooh, awesome! I think that the world could use more fic that brings out that aspect of Jack. :D

Thank you for giving me the necessary kick. *g*

To save your eyes, I posted why I won't be entering the Big Bang here (http://x-varda-x.livejournal.com/32248.html)

I'll look at the art though, so good luck. I can't draw for toffee...

*rubs hands together in anticipation* :)

To be honest, I'm not really sure what to say to that, because I think that it's counter-productive to get hung up on how many comments other people are getting. :/ I mean, it's human nature, obviously, but it doesn't do a damn thing for us as writers. I think it's far more useful to focus on gathering a community of readers that appreciate whatever it is that we're writing (I've been in fandoms where I was literally the only gen writer before; I know a number of other writers who have had similar "carving out their own little niche" experiences in various fandoms). On the other hand, if you don't expect that a particular fannish community is interested in the type of fic that you're writing, then obviously it makes more sense to post your stories elsewhere!

anyway, thank you for the good luck wishes! :) I still haven't read most of the

sticksandsnark stories, including yours; I got eaten by school and RL, and then the new Dresden Files book happened to me. :D

I feel like I have seen some TW fics that are set up that way for Jack and Ianto, though I don't bookmark and rarely even read J/I at all, so I couldn't point you to any specifics. Though

invisible_lift's series 'It'll End In Tears' might count. Depends on how you look at it.

I know I've seen several Star Trek: AOS Kirk/McCoy fics that cover that base, and in a similar vein I tend to assume that Shawn and Gus on Psych are in an open relationship. I'm not sure if I've actually found any fic that supports that, but I've been fiddling with writing some. I was trying to write plot, and I ended up with nearly 2000 words of Gus talking to Jules about the parameters of his and Shawn's relationship, and the possible ramifications of bringing her in as another primary relationship.

Interesting; thanks for the info! I do think that negotiating of the parameters of the relationship is something I think would be really cool to see in fic. :D

I've read a lot of fics with various multiple pairings (simultaneously or not), but I find that the one constant for me as far as differentiating between relationships I enjoyed and did not was how much I could feel the people cared about each other. If an open relationship can be portrayed in such a way that you feel the love with all the people involved, I would be interested, otherwise I'd be disengaged as a reader. Which means that as hard as it is to pull of a monogamous relationship, and as much as it's harder to pull off a treesome, I think it would be that much harder for a writer to sell an open relationship to a reader. The factor of difficulty would go up by each person involved.

Due to that in part, I don't think I can remember any open relationships in fics.

Randomly enough a recent episode of The Mentalist featured an open relationship and it was a refreshing idea to me, because of how rare it is.

I think the assumption that an open relationship would be inherently less loving is a) one of the reasons why people don't write it much, and b) part of the stigma that people who actually have such relationships have to deal with. But I don't see why it couldn't be expressed in a fic just as it could be with other combinations of characters and relationship boundaries.

I don't think it's impossible by any means, just harder because you have to write each person as a fully developed character, and each relationship with its unique details. It's hard enough to do with 2 people, harder with 3, even harder with 4, etc.

And if you don't write the other people into the story than the "openness" is out of focus, and the reader will feel like the relationship between the people who are fully developed in the story is the more important one. That's how it seems to me.

sorry that was me above.

dancinbutterfly wrote a Kirk/McCoy fic (with sequel) that has them deciding to be in an open relationship.

It's still pretty rare in fandom, though, which is very disappointing.

Signups for writers and artists/fanmixers are open 'til April 12th. From glancing at the signups, they could really use more gen writers. *pokes flist*

*iz poked* :D (I still can't believe I'm doing it but...)

To the meat of your post: I don't recall reading healthy/positive open relationships in fic. There were a few X-Files fics where Mulder was involved in an open relationship or two back in his college days, but it was a has-been, unhealthy thing that served to a) show the wild and crazy life style of Oxford (those British are so crazy!) and b) provide a woobie-past to underline Mulder's trust issues.

Has "Caprica" gotten a fandom going? I'm not caught up on eps yet so I haven't gone looking, but the show itself has various types of relationships so it wouldn't surprise me if the fans do so as well.

I've signed up with my gen AU thing (had when you posted this)! I'm rather nervous about it, since I've never written a 40k fic before, but I've got 5000 words done so far, and that's something, right?? *g*

(I think, though, that my genficathon story will be rather short -- or perhaps I could write more than one short genficathon stories, or something.)

Gnine mentioned to me one show that actually has an open relationship, or a semi-open relationship - at least not a monogamous one! - as one of its central pairings - in the Highlander TV series, Duncan and Amanda have this steady kind of on-again/off-again relationship. Basically, if neither of them are seeing anyone else, then they sleep together; otherwise, if one of them (Duncan usually) is in a committed monogamous relationship with someone else, then they're just friends. There's pretty much no jealousy (at least on Amanda's part) and it's not presented as getting together and breaking up so much as a consistent but not constant relationship; Amanda is never really his girlfriend as she's always wandering in and out of Duncan's life. They enjoy being together without seeking commitment, but they love each other dearly. (I rather loved them as a couple, really!)

--Though Highlander wasn't an American show anyway, being a Canadian/French production, and a lot of its values were not quite in step with standard US TV anyway.

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Miscellaneous fannish things

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