sholio: (Books)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2009-12-08 06:12 pm
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Are you guys tired of listening to me complain about books yet?

Too bad. *g* Because I'm reading "Off Armageddon Reef" by David Weber, and thus far, I have this to say.

Dear Mr. Weber,

If you plan to write about languages changing over time, for the sake of your readers' sanity, read a book on linguistics first. Or look it up on Wikipedia. Or ANYTHING.

Sincerely,
Me.

So we have this colony world that was settled about a thousand years ago by (to simplify the plot greatly) a fundamentalist religious cult -- I mean, clearly it's more complicated, but that's the nutshell version. And what Weber's done is attempted to show that a great deal of time has passed by throwing random y's and h's into common English names. So ALL the characters have eyebleed-inducing names like Dynnys and Myllyr and Wyllym and Haarahld and (I think this is my personal favorite so far for its sheer gratuitousness) Ahdymsyn. (Well, Zherald Ahdymsyn if you want to be precise. God, I can't even type that.)

Adding to the amusement, names of places and deities and historical people (like, say, the Archangel Langhorne, one of the founders of the colony and the cult) have apparently survived with perfectly static pronunciation right down to the present day.

Maybe the early days of the colony saw a tragic shortage of vowels, and they had to make do with Y's. Poor people.
ext_2351: (Default)

[identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
Whan that Aprille, Dhavydh Whybhyrh hath perced to the roote of that Dreadfulh Great Vowel Shift and bathed every veyne in swich licour of lahzy worldh bhuilding, Lorraine doth thinketh she couldeth also be making some quick cashh.
ext_1981: (LoM-Sam Gene outside)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 03:58 am (UTC)(link)
*snorfls*

I just discovered that there's both a continent named Howard and a character named ... Hauwerd. WHYYYYYYYYYY

I dohn't knohw hauhw muhch of thys Y'm gohing to byy able to tayke.
ext_2351: (Default)

[identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 04:02 am (UTC)(link)
All I want to know is

WHERE ARE THE DRAGONS?

*taps foot impatiently*

Worlds with too many y's always have an over-abundance of dragons. This is second only to the law of gravity.
ext_1981: (Scrubs-Carla)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:20 am (UTC)(link)
I really would not be surprised if dragons show up at some point. *g* We've already got a society which has mysteriously arranged itself into something that suspiciously resembles Fantasy Medieval Europe (i.e. kings, queens, knights, but no serfs).
ext_1981: (Jeannie alien WTF)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:33 am (UTC)(link)
hahahahaha, yep, here we go ... dragons! Well, wyverns -- small dragons. BUT STILL. I'm only on page 118!
ext_2351: (Default)

[identity profile] lunabee34.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 04:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I knew it! The dragons with y's, naturally. LOL
ext_1981: (Scrubs-Carla)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 07:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, otherwise they'd have to be drahgyns, of course.

[identity profile] kriadydragon.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 04:00 am (UTC)(link)
I love it when you complain about books. It helps me know what to avoid in both the reading and writing world :D

This reminded me of something I read a long time ago, something an author said, begging other authors to stop butchering the English language and just call a horse a horse instead of a Hho'r'es... or something.

It also reminds me of when people try to write Carson's accent (which, yes, I've been guilty of, but I've since learned my lesson and stopped).
ext_1981: (SGA)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:40 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad you enjoy the posts. :) I actually find it helpful to read bad books too -- I've learned a number of things to avoid (like long infodumps at the start of a book) by noticing how I react to it as a reader!

And yeah, it's really a fine line that is easily crossed. I can understand an author wanting the reader to "hear" what they hear in their head, but the more nonstandard your spelling gets, the more it's just going to annoy the reader and make it difficult to read the text. (And in the case of dialects and accents, you also run the risk of seriously annoying or offending people who speak that way themselves, especially if it's badly done. The old X-Men comics -- as much as I loved them and still do -- are a smorgasbord of terribly rendered accents, from Deep South to Cajun to German to Russian; I'll give them props for trying, but STILL.)
ext_150: (Default)

[identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 05:02 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, that sounds horrible! D:
ext_1981: (SGA)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:28 am (UTC)(link)
And it keeps. getting. worse. I just hit a part in which the immortal character (she's an android, and the reader's window onto the world) helpfully explains that the written language -- and grammar -- has remained the same for the last thousand years, but the pronunciation has changed. This is kind of almost plausible (except for the part where personal names are apparently being spelled phonetically -- sort of -- and place names aren't) but then she goes on to say in the NEXT SENTENCE that the pronunciation has changed so much it's differentiated into separate dialects and in some cases separate languages. It's not a dialect if the grammar is the same, it's an ACCENT. And god knows it's not a whole new LANGUAGE.

It's frustrating because there's a lot of possibility for really interesting world-building in this world, and some intriguing sci-fi concepts, but it's being totally blown on the writer's inability to actually handle believable culture change over time.
aelfgyfu_mead: (helmet)

[personal profile] aelfgyfu_mead 2009-12-09 01:34 pm (UTC)(link)
A basic History of the English Language class would do wonders for this author, methinks.
ext_150: (Default)

[identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Ack! D:

[identity profile] snarkydame.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 06:02 am (UTC)(link)
O_o Well. They can't all be Tolkien?
ext_1981: (Books)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:40 am (UTC)(link)
This author is nowhere NEAR Tolkein's league, believe me. *returns to stare at train wreck*
ratcreature: argh (argh)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2009-12-09 07:51 am (UTC)(link)
Wow that is worse even than the random alien apostrophe.
ext_1981: (SGA)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 08:31 am (UTC)(link)
oh god, I know! I want to like the book, but running into a name like "Ahrnahld" is like slamming into a brick wall -- it startles me right out of the scene. And there's enough implausibility in the rest of the world-building that my disbelief just is not staying suspended at all. It's frustrating because there are some really interesting ideas in this book -- it's about an Earth colony losing its technology and then rediscovering it -- but it's being totally wrecked by the author's shoddy research on how cultures actually change over time.
aelfgyfu_mead: Aelfgyfu as a South Park-style cartoon (Geoffrey)

[personal profile] aelfgyfu_mead 2009-12-09 01:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, the hilarity! My dear buddy Geffrey is laughing his head off. I don't know if I could read that book; I'd be stopping to crack up at every new name!
ext_1981: (Naked alien - OMFG)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
"Ahrnahld" made me want to cry.

I just went on Amazon to check the reviews and apparently it gets even worse later on. One of the reviewers snarks about it for several paragraphs, and from the list of names it's even more abundantly obvious that Weber knows zilch about linguistics -- his pronunciation shifts are totally random (sometimes "s" becomes vocalized, sometimes it doesn't; vowels shift in random and sometimes mutually nonsensical directions; unstressed syllables occasionally pick up new vowel sounds for no apparent reason). And okay, yeah, I do have an amateur interest in linguistics, but even leaving aside the fact that the science is blindingly wrong (and call me crazy, but I expect SCIENCE from SCIENCE FICTION), the weirdly spelled names are a giant stumbling block that any reasonable editor should have shot down.
rydra_wong: Lee Miller photo showing two women wearing metal fire masks in England during WWII. (Default)

[personal profile] rydra_wong 2009-12-09 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Surely "Ahrnahld" is the Governator?

I have a mental image of Weber reflecting that it's such a cliche to make names science-fictional by adding gra'tu'it'ous ap'ostr'oph'es everywhere -- what, he wonders, would be an original and exciting approach to portraying linguistic differences? Thyn, yn yhdea strhykes hym ...
ext_1981: (Squish)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
*laughs* I must admit that every time someone says "Ahrnahld" in the book, I hear it in an Austrian accent.

Ah, but alas, if only Ahnold was in this book! It would be so much more entertaining! Not exactly better, but entertaining at least. (I've kind of given up after about 150 pages. It's just not getting any better, and while there are all of these potentially awesome concepts, like the android protagonist with a human woman's personality template in a male body, the author is not actually exploring any of the ideas that he's raised. And I am so spoiled by reading authors who address cultural diversity in at least a half-assed fashion that I am deeply annoyed that despite passing references in the first couple of chapters to a certain amount of diversity in the colony's founders, it seems to have lapsed into total Euro-World after 900 years.)

[identity profile] greyias.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 02:28 pm (UTC)(link)
My only response to that can be rendered as: D: D: D: D: D:
ext_1981: (Team Love)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-12-09 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I share my pain so you guys can suffer too!

[identity profile] flingslass.livejournal.com 2009-12-13 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
Gives me hope ;-)