sholio | Leverage. Hmm.

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tv:leverage

Leverage. Hmm.

I hate to break with my f'list here, but ... I'm not really feeling the love. We watched the first two episodes tonight and so far I'm not overly impressed. Character-wise, I love Hardison and Parker, and I like Elliot okay (as a source of entertainment, anyway, not really as a person), and there's some fun banter, but this is offset by feeling massively emotionally manipulated by the whole show. I just feel like it's deliberately and obviously tweaking at the heartstrings, holding a flashing sign over the characters' heads reading These Are People You Will Like. You Will Like Them. and bending over backwards to prove that they aren't really bad guys, they're people who steal money from evil corporations to ~~cause massive tax problems for~~ help disabled veterans!

I think I'd like the show a lot better if the characters would just revel in their lawbreaking ways rather than trying to convince the audience that they're not that bad after all. Butch and Sundance didn't steal money to give to hospitals! They stole it because they were self-indulgent thrill-seekers and they liked it that way! As it is, I feel like the show's trying to do some moral sleight of hand ("They're stealing from corporations and smugglers! It's not really stealing!") that's not quite working. The whole disabled-veterans thing was so over-the-top I couldn't believe they actually went there. Why not just go all the way and use handicapped orphans, guys? (Maybe they're saving that one for a future episode...) I'm having trouble articulating this -- I just feel like the show is stuck in some kind of weird limbo between having its characters be bastards gleefully revelling in their bastardness, and having them be selfless heroes, and it seems like its efforts to sell us on the idea that they're really selfless heroes while showing their bastardness makes it seem like a thin rationalization and makes me like them less, not more.

There's a certain amount of distance to most heist movies; you know that what the characters are doing is wrong, so there's a gleeful kind of self-indulgence to suspending your awareness of the consequences and going along for the ride. I feel like the show is trying too hard to sell us on the idea that what the characters are doing is right, which just makes me feel sort of awkward and, like I said, a bit manipulated.

I certainly didn't hate it. I like some of the characters, and there are a lot of neat/fun moments to offset the moments when I eyeroll at the screen, but I'm not really sure if it's worth sticking it out for another episode or two. I feel vaguely guilty because a lot of my f'list seems to love this show; I just can't seem to get into it.

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Have you seen Hustle? It's an awesome British/AMC show that Leverage completely rips off except that Hustle is awesome and they definitely do revel in their conman ways as you long for above. How awesome is it? ROBERT VAUGHN is one of the leads. Yup, that good. It's available on DVD and there were 4-5 seasons on about 2-3 years ago.

Ah, I didn't see your comment when I posted my own rec for Hustle! *g*

It's on it's fifth season right now. (And they're UK seasons, so sadly very short - but at least it means no great commitment in checking it out!)

Hee, yeah, Naye's recommended it to me before! (I was about to say that it's hard to get it here, but oh hi, Amazon has it! Uh oh. *fingers twitch*)

Oooh, if you want a show where the characters do revel in their shameless lawbreaking ways, you should watch Hustle. ♥ I keep running into the problem of liking Leverage (with reservations), but finding it lacking in comparison to Hustle.

I don't want to spoil Hustle for you, but - they all have fun, and I absolutely love the whole crew, even though I acknowledge that they can all be horrible, horrible people. *g* (Usually, though, they're much much better about going after people that makes you go \o/ when they own them at the end.) Plus, Hustle pokes holes in the fourth wall to flirt with the audience. Sometimes by doing a dance routine. How could you resist that?

On top of everything else, the Hustle crew feels like family in a way I'm really not getting from Leverage (yet?).

In Leverage, like you, I find Parker and Hardison to be quite fantastic. They're fun and unusual characters - I haven't seen anyone quite like them in anything else! So that scores huge points with me. And Elliot is the world's most dangerous puppy. ♥ Overall, though, Leverage has yet to win me over, and I've seen all episodes but the season finale. I would go into why, but that would entail spoilers, so I won't.

On top of everything else, the Hustle crew feels like family in a way I'm really not getting from Leverage (yet?).

I'm pretty sure that's intentional--the group dynamic is supposed to be fragile. It wouldn't work for me if these five loners became a real family after so little time.

The other thing that is important to remember is that the episode order as aired on TNT is very, very different from the intended order. I understand why TNT did it that way from the point of view of attracting an audience, but the problem is that it scrambled the character arcs rather badly.

Oh, TNT did that? That might actually explain a lot of the "off" feeling I've been getting from some of it! I hate it when they do that. Sigh.

I'm going to keep watching Leverage, though, because The First David Job pulled me back in after some of the previous episodes almost lost me (keeping this spoiler free for

friendshipper!).

But Hustle - right now it just makes me happy to have a show where most of the characters have known each other for a long time, and trust each other and help each other out and are all around adorable together.

I posted the intended order above; that's also going to be the DVD order.

And without spoilers, I'll just say, as someone who never cries at TV shows, that there was definitely something in my eye while I was watching "The Second David Job".

Thank you! Looking at that list, I only wish I could've seen the episodes in that order the first time around... It makes so much more sense like that. Stupid TV networks. Sigh. But at least the order is good to have for potential rewatching.

Ah, I'm very much looking forward to watching "The Second David Job"! TV watching is a group activity for me, and we haven't yet have a chance to gather the whole Leverage-watching crew for a session in a whole, so... that's something to look forward to. ♥

You recommended Hustle to me before -- I actually wanted to give it a try, but my usual sources are coming up empty! I did get the first episode of Life, which you had also said was good, though I might try to get to a stopping place on the shows I'm currently watching before starting yet another new one; we're in the middle of the second season of Scrubs, and we never did get past early season 2 of Due South!

One of the things I like most about Parker is that she's not the straight (wo)man for the boys; she's just as crazy as they are (if not more so)! :D And people told me that Hardison was awesome, and they were right.

Overall, though, the show is just falling flat for me -- it's hard to articulate the reasons exactly, but I do think a lot of it is that I feel like they're trying to sanitize it too much, as if they feel like they have to justify the team's activities rather than just having them do it 'cause they like it and are addicted to the thrill of adrenaline. I don't really like the two main leads, and I'm finding it hard to suspend enough disbelief to go along for the rides on the plots.

Like I said to

darkrosetiger, I might give it a rest for awhile, watch something else and then come back fresh later and give it another chance!

Oh noes! Usual sources coming up empty? That's a pity... And my source are DVDs that. Uh. Are in Sweden? Though maybe

xparrot has them more handy?

Hustle is fun~! You should give it a go! It's short enough (6 eps/season!) that it's not going to be more than a fun fling either way. Plus, it has everything you were wishing Leverage had, so it sounds like it'd be a perfect match for you. ♥

That Parker is allowed to be batshit even though she's a girl is one of the things that makes me go \o/! She can out-weird everyone else on her team! And Hardison is just interesting and fun and gets the best lines.

Alas, I can't say I'm very charmed by the two leads, either, and... that is a bit of a problem. ^^;; But maybe if you come back to it later, you'll like it better! It might also perk up in its second season - after all, first seasons deserve a break, I think.

I, um, may have ordered Hustle from Amazon. *looks around shiftily*

I think I'll give it a break and then try it again ... a lot of my f'list does like it, and two episodes is hardly giving it a fair shot!

I love Leverage, but I freely admit that a big part of why is that I'm comparing it to SGA. They've gotten a lot of points from me for a) the EP not being an asshole, b) having women on the writing staff, c) keeping it an ensemble show instead of "Guy We Like and Some Other People", d) having a diverse pool of extras, and the big one, e) not making the character of color into a walking, talking stereotype. I'm willing to forgive an awful lot for being able to watch a show where I can look at one of the main characters and go, "That's my people!"

I honestly don't mind the heartstring-tugging, especially not with eps like "The Homecoming Job" that are very thinly-veiled takes on real-life events. I've watched that episode multiple times, and each time I get a visceral thrill out of seeing ~~Blackwater~~ Castleman brought down. There are few entities I loathe more than insurance companies, so the idea that Nate's doing what he does because the company he worked for screwed him is easy for me to buy because they're doing something I wish I could do.

It doesn't hurt that the Alec/Eliot was obvious to me in the first ten minutes, and that the EP is quite clear when he's throwing in the fanservice that he knows about the slash and it doesn't bother him.

*nods* I can certainly see why you and half the rest of my f'list like this show; I think maybe part of the reason why I'm reacting to it like I am is that I'm also seeing it through the SGA lens, except in my case it's more like "Do I really want to get hooked on yet another popcorn show with this many plot holes right now?" I'm seeing the writing deficiencies more than the show, if that makes any sense.

I do adore Hardison for not being a stereotype and for just being, well, him (snarky nerd-boys, my fan candy!) -- and I like that Parker, too, is played against type for the sort of character that she is, at least so far; I had a moment's flinch when she came onscreen as the sexy cat burglar, but I love her defiant thrill-seeking and the fact that she's not the straight man for the boys -- something that you don't see very often with women in ensemble casts on TV, where usually the boys are the crazy ones and the girls get to play "mom". (I liked Vala for similar reasons.)

Since it's not really grabbing me, I'm tempted to give it a rest for a bit and come back to it later. I do think it's got the potential to grow on me, but it's just not really what I want to watch right now; this might be a good one for when I get to hiatus breaks and/or ends-of-seasons on the other shows I'm currently catching up on.

Thank you very much for the episode listing, though; I'll go renumber 'em on my hard drive so that I have them all ready to go when I'm ready to watch the rest. :D

Alec is Hardison, yes? In which case, YES, Hardison/Eliot for the win! (though I admit partiality to the Hardison/Parker/Eliot OT3...)

Also, thanks for the proper episode-order - the show would've worked better that way, definitely.

ETA - You're probably tiring of the "yay Hustle!" comments, and I swear, I'm not trying to convince you to change allegiances or anything - but if you haven't seen any of the show, as far as CoC go, Hustle's leading man is the marvelous Mickey "Bricks" Stone, played by the gorgeous Adrian Lester (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0504412/).

Still haven't watched Leverage yet. I didn't really get into Hustle and it's got Robert Vaughan in it.

If you do decide to watch more, I strongly recommend watching the episodes in their intended order, rather than in the airing order:

1.) The Nigerian Job
2.) The Homecoming Job
3.) The Wedding Job
4.) The Snow Job
5.) The Mile High Job
6.) The Miracle Job
7.) The Two Horse Job
8.) The Bank Shot Job
9.) The Stork Job
10.) The Juror #6 Job
11.) The 12 Step Job
12.) The First David Job
13.) The Second David Job

Oh wow, they *are* screwed up, aren't they?! (I'm currently renumbering them, and ouch.) I can see how that would have messed with the arcs...

One thing I forgot to put in my above comment is that I'm a total non-shipper and even I can see strong vibes on both Alec/Elliot and Alec/Parker. I don't know if they're playing it that way on purpose, or if the actors just have that much chemistry.

I had the same problem with the morality (and also how ham-handed the liberal anti-corporate agenda is - not that I'm not liberal pinko wacko myself, but some of Leverage makes s1 NCIS's political message look subtle!) Also (as everyone has been saying) it doesn't fare well compared to Hustle; Hustle's got sharper writing, while as with Leverage I too often feel like they're spoon-feeding the plot; they over-explain the cons, rather than let the audience figure stuff out for themselves.

Hardison, Parker, and Elliot are worth watching the show for, but yeah - "trying too hard" is how I felt for a lot of it.

*points* Yes, that's it exactly; wacko liberal though I may be, the really blatant "corporations are evil! that makes stealing from them okay!" theme of the show really rubs me the wrong way (and, uh, ripping off millions of dollars from an insurance company is just going to come down on lots of other innocent people in the form of higher premiums and loss of coverage; there's no free lunch, guys, okay?). And yeah, I feel like the cons are fairly lame -- I like heist shows, but the heist plot (like the mystery plot) is very much driven by the quality of the writing, and mediocre writing can make the whole thing fall flat like an underdone cake. Their heists seem to be predicated on luck, coincidence, and dependence on the stupidity of most of the other people involved ... and while a little of that is pretty much what cons are made of, to have your plot revolve around it -- well, when the doctor at the end of the second episode said "The world doesn't work like that!" I may have been heard to agree with her out loud to the TV. XD

Having said that, I do like some of the characters and I have most of the series already downloaded, so I will probably watch a few more episodes just to give it a fair shot. I'll probably watch more Scrubs first, though...

wacko liberal though I may be, the really blatant "corporations are evil! that makes stealing from them okay!" theme of the show really rubs me the wrong way (and, uh, ripping off millions of dollars from an insurance company is just going to come down on lots of other innocent people in the form of higher premiums and loss of coverage; there's no free lunch, guys, okay?)

The CEOs of Leverage are like the corporate bad guys of Captain Planet - they're supervillains, rubbing their hands together while giggling gleefully at how they're screwing over innocent people. It's not that I think corporations are good - and megacorp CEOs, well, I'm a believer in Lord Acton, "power tends to corrupt". But Leverage is so cartoonish about it. A real CEO can't just go around telling people they're being evil for the hell of it, they have to couch their greed in acceptable terms - even in their own minds, a lot of times; that's what's insidious about it. By presenting fictional villains that are so unbelievable, it's almost like Leverage is letting the real-life bad guys off the hook...

Yes, watch more of Scrubs! There's so much cute and funniness to come!

You gotta give it a couple more eps. It really starts to hit its stride later on and the latter 4 episodes are some of the best TV I've seen. For what is essentially a comedy there's a surprising amount of depth in the characters. Please give it a little longer? I didn't like the second ep much but stuck with it and I'm really glad I did :)

I might come back to it later...

I've enjoyed the eps I've seen, though the series hasn't gotten me hooked enough yet to grab what little free time I have. But the whole "why can't they just be bastards instead of bastards for Good!" thing makes me curious: how do you feel about Robin Hood?

That's not rhetorical -- just wondering if it's the trope in general you dislike or if there's something about Leverage that makes it different from the Robin Hood thing, which is what I always thought they were doing with the show. Not, "we want them to be bastards, but we want people to like them, so let's make them bastards for Good!" but "how about a modern-day Robin Hood with thieves who use their mad-hot thievery skillz to help the poor and downtrodden?"

I think it's mostly how the trope is done? I really don't have a problem with the trope as a general thing -- there are real life examples (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/paleokostas.html), even. But I feel like the show is having trouble pulling off the concept in a way that doesn't feel (to me) ham-handed and emotionally manipulative. I think that in order to keep my own disbelief suspended, they did a bad thing by having such a blatant emotional ploy in the first episode, and having the characters all fall in line with it in the end -- maybe if they'd had them come around more slowly to the Robin Hood concept, it wouldn't have seemed so bludgeon-y? I don't know; something about it is just not working for me, even though I think that under different circumstances I could be sold on it.

I had been thinking of checking out this show, but I've been ambivalent, and I think this would bother me too. Have you ever read Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series? That character excuses his activities as "only" harming businesses and as enriching society, which is pretty bogus, but even though I get a strong whiff of authorspeak from that, the character doesn't really ride it hard. He sometimes takes on causes, but I don't remember anything as blatant as what you describe here.

If you haven't read the series, I'm not necessarily recommending it, btw; it's about a pretty unredeemed criminal who thinks himself vaguely feminist in a far-future society ... as written in, like, the 50s. In other words, sexism ahoy! I only bring it up because it sounded similar to what you mention. That character does revel in his schemes, though.

In unrelated news, your link, holy guacamole, why is there not a already movie about Vassilis Paleokostas? Dude! (I suppose the Greek government might disagree on the entertainment value, but...come on, hardcore modern Robin Hooding! Down to the politeness to his captives and his awesome name!)

I hate to break with my f'list here, but ... I'm not really feeling the love

It's not just me!
My flist is going nuts about it and....meh.

beanpot showed me an episode when I was at her place in January and I don't think being half-asleep on jetlag helped, but it didn't really draw me. And nothing people have said has really intrigued me.
(but, well, between Sanctuary and my new complete infatuation with The Sarah Connor Chronicles I don't really need another show)

YAY, IT'S NOT JUST ME! :D

I think part of the problem is that I'm kind of full-up with mediocre shows that are mostly entertaining because of their cute cast ... pretty much everything I'm watching right now (SPN, NCIS, and of course the Stargates) are like that, and while I do enjoy fanning on shows like that, I think I'm more craving something that's a little bit stronger.

YAY!

*nods*
I keep thinking I should give it another try, since I really was jet-lagged and falling asleep the one episode I watched, but it just doesn't sound appealing, however much EVERYONE on my flist is squeeing.

I'm kind of full-up with mediocre shows that are mostly entertaining because of their cute cast ... pretty much everything I'm watching right now (SPN, NCIS, and of course the Stargates) are like that, and while I do enjoy fanning on shows like that, I think I'm more craving something that's a little bit stronger.

That makes sense. I was kinda completely out of shows - the only current ones I was watching were the 'gates, since I forgot to keep watching SPN and I still haven't remembered to watch most of SGA S5. Sanctuary has been a lot of fun though the writing isn't what it could be (I just...Damian Kindler has a lot of strengths, but also a lot of weaknesses. I'd like to see him have help from someone who is good at writing tighter plots).

But did you ever try Sarah Connor Chronicles? I finally poked at it last week after meaning to for a long time and I haven't felt this blown away in a long time. Real, solid, dimensional characters who grow and change and have secrets and aren't always predictable. Solid writing and plotting and just...I can't stop watching it. Plus, chicks kicking ass doesn't hurt anything :)

I really couldn't stand that show. It's full of bad writer's tricks and product placement. Very irritating. I can elaborate if you want, but I tend to volunteer too much opinion when people are talking about something I have a vested interest in bitching about.

Heh! My opinions on this one aren't particularly strong one way or another. I find it a rather poorly written show with good chemistry among some of the cast, and I'm not sure if I'm up for something like that right now; I already have too many shows I watch that are along those lines...

The ep order bit makes a difference and you do get to see them reveling a bit more later. I admit I am biased-I will forgive them just about anything for Hardison and Parker:) Let it marinate for a bit and maybe reserve judgment until the latter part of the arc but if it doesn't do it for you, it just doesn't. *runs off to put Hustle in the Netflix queue*

I do love Hardison and Parker, but so far they're not really enough to sell the show to me. However, I will probably be giving it a chance with a few more episodes; I have them, so I may as well watch them!

I think it's the sort of thing that if you go into it hoping to just love it to bits, it'll disappoint. But if you go into it for an entertaining hour, it'll grow on you. I recall liking the first ep, being majorly disappointed in the second (because yeah, uber heavy-handed) and then... I don't know... it grew on me. :)

That's a good point! I think part of the problem right now is that I'm kinda burned out on entertaining-but-mediocre shows (most of what I'm watching right now is like that) and want something more intellectually engaging. I might let Leverage sit for a while and come back to it later...

I didn't know Hustle was on again! *checks tivo*

You'd have to ask someone else about that ... I don't know!

I saw "The Miracle Job", which I thought was only meh, after all the hype in the advertisements. However, I really loved the finale. I thought the chemistry of the cast was great, especially Alec and Parker. Parker was especially hilarious for her idiosyncracies. So, I'll be going back to watch the other episodes.

Hardison and Parker are awfully cute! I think the show might grow on me -- people keep telling me that it's better in later episodes than the ones I've seen so far. So I'll probably get to the rest eventually...

I'll admit, I love Leverage, mostly because I don't watch a lot of TV, and most of the TV I like has a lot of humor underlying it, and this show brings the humor. The characters just got funnier and funnier with each ep, even when they were being serious. Then there's one episode -- the 12-Step Job -- which is really wonderful. If you watch just one more, I'd suggest that one.

But I get that you might want something more, something more intellectually stimulating. I don't think that exists on TV at the moment. The comedies are generally the most intelligent things on TV ("Scrubs", "The Office", "30 Rock"...even the new show, "Better Off Ted", looks like its going to be of that class). But the dramas are mostly meh. I watch "Lie to Me" mostly for Tim Roth, but it doesn't grab me. I also like the characters on "Life", but the story lines aren't great. There are just too many police procedurals on TV right now. Whatever happened to the old, awesome PI shows?

I can't help but love the characters on Leverage, though. I love it the way I like Reaper, Chuck, Psych, and Monk. They just make me happy. But, yeah, I'd never fan it. There's nothing yet to make me want to fan it.

(Oh, as for the "evil corporation" trope. I work for one of them, so I thought it would bother me as well, but they went away from that pretty quickly, and just went after greedy individuals for most of the season).

I'll probably go ahead and push forward with Leverage -- it's true that I'm craving something a bit different right now, but it's also true that I haven't given it much of a chance. Maybe it just needs a few more episodes for the characters to really sink themselves into my brain. It took something like 14 episodes for Supernatural to really hook me (and then another couple seasons to lose me again, but that's a different story ...).

I'm glad to hear they tone down the 'evil corporation' thing; the black-and-white plotlines are one of the things that's bothering me about the show, and if they ease up on it a bit, I might like the show more.

And I need to get caught up on Psych! That's such a fun show. :D I do wish for a little more angst sometimes; that's one thing I really love about Scrubs, actually -- it's cute and fluffy, but then it'll take a 90-degree turn and yank your heartstrings! I love shows that can do that to me. Psych often leaves me craving a bit more than it gives me... but mostly because I adore the characters so much that I want to see their relationships tested in a way that the show just doesn't do.

Drifting by somewhat randomly and butting in to note that there's a wee bit more angst than usual in the last ep of Psych's third season....

Oops. I hope that's not considered spoilery?

Nope, it's all good. :) I'd already gotten that impression from my flist's reactions to it!

That's a relief! I try not to do that, and some folks might have considered that a spoiler, which I only thought about *after* I hit "post comment." I wish LJ had an "Are you *sure*, y/n?" button for days like today when my brain's not working.

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Leverage. Hmm.

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One other thing:

Re: One other thing:

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