The chaotic Dragaera reread continues

[sholio]

.... but much more slowly. I reread Vallista this past week, and that book sure hits different in a few ways after reading Tsalmoth!


So when I originally read Vallista, I really enjoyed the mind-bending aspects of the book; this is one of the twistier books in the series, and it's so addictive once you start reading it, getting swept up in the mystery of the house. And I remember loving how this book solidly confirms what some of the earlier books had vaguely implied, that the Dragaerans are a science experiment and the goal was to create a society that doesn't change. (Which I still adore for its fantasy metafictional qualities.)

But I had no idea all the demon stuff that we learn in this book was going to matter so much a couple of books later! The entire thing with existing in multiple places, and moving in ways that are clearly utilizing some other space orthogonal to our regular dimensions of space and time, is developed in this book in ways that become relevant from new angles later on. (It's also really fascinating that Vlad thinks of Discaru as a demon because he looks like one, but that's actually just because he comes from a different world, and what makes him a demon is purely metaphysical and nothing to do with what he looks like. Which is also touched on in this book, but won't really be developed in detail until Vlad gets turned into one a few books later, or rather a few books earlier, in terms of their internal chronology ...)

And the house! On the cliff! Wasn't it in a cave under that same cliff where demon!Vlad was summoned in Tsalmoth? It feels like more than coincidence that the sorcerous anchor for the house is in that approximate location. (Though maybe Lyorn touches on this? I don't remember much about Lyorn at all, other than the general concept of the framing story of the play ...)

I also had forgotten the past lives stuff, including the canon confirmation that Vlad has had many Dragaeran lives, male and female; and Devera originally recruiting Dollivar/(Vlad) to Verra's service. With Devera's out-of-order life, I wonder if she recruited past!Vlad because she had already met him and liked him from later lives. (I wonder if we'll ever see Devera's first meeting with Vlad from her point of view? I don't think we've seen an encounter between them in which she doesn't already know him, but it must happen at some point, unless he's known her since she was a baby ...)

Also, Aliera knows about Devera in this book, and has apparently known since some time before Vlad left Adrilankha. Did we ever seen her finding that out?

I also wonder about the vague figure "with wand and sword" that Vlad sees when Devera banishes Discaru. Vlad doesn't see enough detail to tell if it's male or female. An adult Devera? Vlad himself?

It's always possible that some of this has been addressed in other books, and I simply don't remember. I think I need to reread Lyorn, being as it's the most recent book both chronologically and in publication order, and maybe Tsalmoth again ...

Comments

[hamsterwoman]

I also had forgotten the past lives stuff, including the canon confirmation that Vlad has had many Dragaeran lives,

That seems to be the only thing I remember from Vallista, which I really ought to reread. (Well, that, and it turning out that time-traveling Vlad was also the Easterner the dancer had spoken to a long time ago, whom he reminds her of in the present timeline, because that was such a Brust thing to do.) But meanwhile, I had completely forgotten demons had anything to do with that book XD

Also, Aliera knows about Devera in this book, and has apparently known since some time before Vlad left Adrilankha. Did we ever seen her finding that out?

Not that I can recall! I've been kind of keeping an eye on it through rereads, because what I remembered tantalizingly doesn't add up to anything coherent -- in Yendi (I think? one of the early books anyway) Devera implies Aliera shouldn't see her, but then in... Iorich, maybe? Aliera says she approves of Vlad Norathar playing with her daughter. I've seen speculation somewhere online that Devera takes part in the battle against the Jenoine in Issola (as the dragon), although I don't remember if there was any actual evidence for that theory -- probably "it's got to be someone we know".

[sholio]

But meanwhile, I had completely forgotten demons had anything to do with that book XD

I had too! In fact, I'd forgotten nearly everything about the actual plot - I remembered the house (but not what its actual deal was) and a little of the random series meta-plot stuff in this book, but I didn't actually remember anything about what was going on or how Vlad got out of it.

in Yendi (I think? one of the early books anyway) Devera implies Aliera shouldn't see her,

Yes! Having just recently reread that one, she's pretty clear in it that Vlad shouldn't mention her to Aliera, because Aliera doesn't know about her yet. (Which honestly raises all kinds of questions - I remember thinking at the time I originally read it that she hadn't been born yet, but clearly she had been, since she was born while Aliera was in the afterlife. But Aliera didn't know that she was pregnant there? Forgot about it?)

but then in... Iorich, maybe? Aliera says she approves of Vlad Norathar playing with her daughter.

Aaahhhh interesting! It's been ages since I read that one, and I didn't remember that at all! I wonder if that is the first book, at least in terms of publication order, in which we know for sure that she knows? (I got the impression from Vallista that she's known for a while, but now I can't remember what made me think that.)

I've seen speculation somewhere online that Devera takes part in the battle against the Jenoine in Issola (as the dragon), although I don't remember if there was any actual evidence for that theory -- probably "it's got to be someone we know".

I am sooooo curious who the dragon is! I feel like Issola very clearly telegraphs that the dragon is someone we've met before, though I don't know exactly why, now - I think Vlad was thinking when he first saw it that it seemed familiar to him? Anyway, I hadn't thought about Devera as a contender, but she certainly could be. I also wondered on my latest reread if it might be a transformed Aliera or Morrolan through some sort of time travel fuckery - and it just now occurred to me that if it IS something like that, Sethra is even more likely, since she's a canonical shapechanger - but I suspect it's way more likely to be a more minor supporting character turning up again. Which does make Devera a pretty good option!

[hamsterwoman]

I remember thinking at the time I originally read it that she hadn't been born yet, but clearly she had been, since she was born while Aliera was in the afterlife.

I have also been assuming all along that Devera was born after the events in Yendi, and, hell, possibly after the events in everything we've seen from Vlad's POV so far... I would probably need to reread the interstitial Tiassa bits to see if I should still be thinking that -- I think I was assuming, even after that, that Aliera just sort of came back to the Halls of Judgement to have a baby with Kieron? I don't know what makes the exchange between Aliera and Kieron in Taltos funnier, that they have a kid together, or that they will conceive one the next time they see each other (presumably):

“Kieron continued to look down at Aliera. Something in how they looked at each other seemed to indicate they had met before. I don’t know how that could be, since Kieron was as old as the Empire and Aliera was less than a thousand years old, however you measured her age.

Kieron said, “Well, will you stand up?”

Her eyes flashed. She hissed, “No, I’m going to lie right here forever.” Yes, I know there are no sibilants in what she said. I don’t care; she hissed it.”

“Kieron chuckled. “Very well,” he said. “If you ever do decide to stand up, you may come and speak to me.”

…

“I said to Aliera, “You seemed to recognize him.”

She said, “So did you.”

“I did?”

“Yes.”

…

““Do not think to instruct me,” he said. “You haven’t earned it.”

“Are you sure?” she said. “I know you, Kieron. And if you don’t know me, it’s only because you’re as blind as you always were.”

He stared at her but allowed no muscle in his face to change.”

…

“Her legs were still a bit unsteady as she approached him. She stopped about six inches away from him and said, “You may escort us out of the Paths, to make up for your lack of courtesy.”

He started to smile, stopped. He said, “I do not choose to leave again. I have done—”

“Nothing for two hundred thousand years. Isn’t that long enough?”

“It is not .your place to judge—”

“Keep still. If you’re determined to continue to allow history to pass you by, give me your sword. I’ll fight my own way out, and put it to the use for which it was intended. You may be finished with it, but I don’t think it has finished its task.”

Kieron’s teeth were clenched and the fires of Verra’s hell burned in his gaze.

He said, “Very well, Aliera e’Kieron. If you think you can wield it, you can take it.”

Now, if some of this conversation doesn’t make sense to you, I can only say that it doesn’t make sense to me, either. For that matter, judging from the occasional glances I took at Morrolan’s face, he wasn’t doing much better at understanding it than I. But I’m telling you as best I can remember it, and you’ll just have to be as satisfied with it as I am.

Aliera said, “I can wield it.”

“Then I charge you to use it well, and to return to this place rather than give it to another or let it be taken from you."

“And if I don’t?” she said, I think just to be contrary.

“Then I’ll come and take it.”

“Perhaps,” said Aliera, “that’s what I want.”

They matched stares for a little longer, then Kieron unstrapped swordbelt and sword and scabbard and passed the whole thing over to Aliera. It was quite a bit taller than she was; I wondered how she’d even be able to carry it.

She took it into her hand without appearing to have difficulty, though. When she had it she didn’t even bow to Kieron, she merely turned on her heel and walked out the door, a bit shakily, but without faltering. We followed her.”

It has always seemed to me like what Kieron is supposed to recognize in her is the past life stuff (since that's presumably what's going on re: Vlad), but of course it needn't be only that... But, IDK, it still reads more to me like neither of them realizes they have a kid here (which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean Devera hasn't been born yet, but I still feel like the Tiassa stuff happened later.)

I think Vlad was thinking when he first saw it that it seemed familiar to him?

In light of your thoughts about Kragar in the last post, I now kind of want it to turn out to be Kragar :P

I had not considered the possibility that it could be a shifted and time-traveling form of someone who is already also there in their primary timeline, but, like, there's absolutely no reason it COULDN'T be that -- the worldbuilding clearly supports that. Huh!

[sholio]

Oh, FASCINATING. Thank you for tracking down the quotes!

I guess I had assumed, once evidence of the series' timey-wimey shenanigans started showing up, that Aliera had conceived and bore Devera while she was in the Paths of the Dead the first time, and then Devera was raised by Verra/her father/other gods or just had some kind of weirdly accelerated childhood. But now I AM UNSURE, because it's hard to see that encounter as the two of them having already had a child together - and Brust would definitely have known by that point, since Devera shows up and is clearly identified as Aliera's daughter as early as Yendi, and surely Brust would've decided who her father was.

But if she did have Devera later, then that means she went back to the Paths of the Dead AGAIN, and spent some significant time there. I was about to say that I don't know how, considering how incredibly hard it is to get out again and how few characters have accomplished it, but then I remembered that Verra's blood gives her the ability to walk out at will. So maybe she actually goes back frequently! She might go back to visit her mother (and later Devera) all the time, for all we know; it's not like Vlad is paying close attention to his friends' comings and goings. However, if Aliera has been going in and out of the afterlife all this time, that is quite a large bombshell to drop in the last two books of the series.

... I also just realized it's also possible that Devera was born before the Interregnum, which seems kind of unlikely (especially since IIRC Verra herself appears a bit nonplused when Aliera plays the "I can leave anytime I want" card in Taltos - she may not have done that before), and also would still leave her meeting with Kieron a bit weird, though maybe less weird if they were lovers several hundreds years ago rather than like .... last week.

In light of your thoughts about Kragar in the last post, I now kind of want it to turn out to be Kragar :P

You know .... there's honestly no reason why it couldn't be him just as easily as Aliera or Morrolan. :P I was thinking them because they're Dragons, mostly, but Kragar is also a Dragon, and while with Aliera and Morrolan I was thinking it was some kind of sorcerous thing they'd done, there is no reason why it couldn't just as easily be something that was done TO him or some inherent property he possesses naturally .... I guess at this point I wouldn't put it past Brust to pull out a reveal that Kragar has always been able to turn into a dragon and Vlad simply never saw him do it. (You'd think Loiosh would know even if Vlad doesn't, though.)

[hamsterwoman]

and surely Brust would've decided who her father was.

That's my sense, too. I seem to remember Brust telling people that he knew Devera's parentage long before Tiassa (so, presumably, from the start)

and also would still leave her meeting with Kieron a bit weird, though maybe less weird if they were lovers several hundreds years ago rather than like .... last week.

Haha, before the Interregnum hadn't occurred to me either, but you're right that the Aliera/Kieron vibes would be less weird if they're OLD exes with shared custody, heh.

I think it's probably not that, though, at least if you trust Paarfi's timeline (and we shouldn't, but it's the only one we have...) He shows a first meeting between Aliera and Sethra in Five Hundred Years After (it's hilarious), so there wouldn't have been time for Sethra to help with the sorcerous arrangement between then and Adron's Disaster/Aliera's soul getting yeeted into the Paths.

I am really curious if we'll get an explanation for the timey-wimeyness of this in the last two Vlad books. Or a Word of God, at least, once he's done... I don't require it, but I *am* curious.

(You'd think Loiosh would know even if Vlad doesn't, though.)

That is a good point, actually! (And Loiosh is the one that gets a hint of Sethra feeling familiar, in Taltos. Although in considerably less fraught circumstances, admittedly. OK, at least slightly less fraught.)