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More thoughts on Babylon 5 after finishing the whole show
• I loved it throughout, and I feel the whole show is really good, and every season is wonderfully different and contains many favorite moments. But I think the high-water mark of the show for me is season three through the first half of season four. That was just utterly some of the most brilliant television I've ever seen. There are parts of it I wish I could watch for the first time all over again, like "Dust to Dust," or the moment when you see old!Londo's face and realize exactly where Sheridan (and we) are in the future, or the Cartagia arc.
• Still cannot believe the Cartagia arc is an actual thing that happened on my TV screen. Rarely has anything on TV hit so many of my underserved iddy kinks so hard. I'm reasonably sure that the last episodes of the show I saw back in the 90s were from this arc, and even though I remembered absolutely nothing specific about it, I can see why it gave me a lifelong desire to find out where Londo and G'Kar's arc went eventually. Which I somehow did remain mostly unspoiled for, at least in any sense that would have affected my enjoyment of watching it unfold in front of me.
• And speaking of Londo and G'Kar, as a long-time lover of enemies-to-whatever arcs, that was an absolutely stunning one. Cannot believe how it just took every button I have for that kind of relationship and stomped all over it. And then doubled down! Their hate is fated in the stars! Except they die in each others' arms in a grand act of sacrifice and in spite of knowing how they die for decades, THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW WRONG THEY ARE until it happens! aaaaaaaaa. And we watch two and a half seasons of the show knowing exactly where they go while they are completely oblivious! I will never be normal about this.
• Kinda curious what G'Kar has been up to for the last 15 years, because we know why future Londo looks like 10 miles of bad road, but G'Kar does too, and it's clear that he's got nothing else going on that is more important than dying on Londo's behalf. Life has not been kind to either of them.
• I was thinking about how, if Sheridan had to flash forward to a part of the future, he managed to get one of the absolute worst parts. Almost anything else would have been nicer! The finale was actually really pleasant and lovely! But no, he lands in the middle of the Centauri-Drakh Apocalypse.
• I can't believe we only saw the Drakh ships once, and that was like a season or so from the end! I really thought there was going to be a lot more to do with the Drakh in the actual show itself.
• But in general, I cannot get over the sheer amount of planning that went into this show. It has been a looooong time since I've watched something that rewards close viewing and analysis like this show does. And this show wrung a level of emotion and (occasionally) shock out of me that is really hard to get from me anymore - and it's 30 years old! Just absolutely wonderful, wonderful TV. I am so glad I watched it.
• Edit: a brief moment of fridge horror regarding Londo's situation - so I was thinking about that unmonitored time with Delenn and Sheridan, and the fact that he seems to do this regularly with the Drakh; he evidently secured a similar kind of tit-for-tat swap for Delenn's rescue in 5x18, where he got what he wanted (Delenn's safety) in exchange for concessions to them. Now, Londo is naturally good at this - he's a born wheeler-dealer. But this specific dynamic reminds me very strongly of how his negotiations with G'Kar used to go, back when they were enemies cooperating for the same goal, and G'Kar would never let him off the hook without getting something back in return. And that makes me wonder if that was where he learned how to do this, but in G'Kar's position this time: if they really can't accomplish their goals without him, then he has a strong bargaining position to ask for a concession so that they get what they want, but he still gets something that he wants too. And if so, then it was G'Kar who gave him the tools to maintain that negotiating edge which has more or less carved out a small space to keep himself sane in the ongoing horror of his life with the Drakh - in the same way that G'Kar himself did when the horror controlling his life was Londo. So I'll just be pondering this and not being normal about it, probably.
• Edit2: Okay, rewatching the final Londo-G'Kar future scene in season 3 is absolutely wild now, because that is season 5 Londo and G'Kar's body language! I remember watching it back in season 3 and recognizing the much warmer vibe between them, but in general, it's not what they say, it's what they do; and a big part of it is actually the open, familiar way Londo leans towards him and talks to him. Especially at the start of that scene, where between the softness in Londo's voice and the way he leans towards G'Kar and gestures when he's talking to him, you can tell at a glance that he's talking to someone he likes and cares about and feels comfortable with. Which the actors didn't actually have a chance to develop for two seasons yet. Amazing.
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Oh, in answer to an earlier comment, the spinoff I thought Marcus starred in was actually Crusade, not Legend of the Rangers. I don't know why, but somehow I had received the very strong impression (I don't know how or when) that Crusade was centered around him. In fact it clearly not only has nothing to do with him but nothing to do with the Rangers at all, and I don't know why I thought that!
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My opinion also. Apparently also my id.
And we watch two and a half seasons of the show knowing exactly where they go while they are completely oblivious! I will never be normal about this.
And even while they are oblivious, with nothing else to imagine but that it will all have to go wrong between them again, their attachment does not break. It's like a trust fall.
(Not being normal about them is the best way to honor them, if you ask me.)
I can't believe we only saw the Drakh ships once, and that was like a season or so from the end! I really thought there was going to be a lot more to do with the Drakh in the actual show itself.
There would have been more to do with the Drakh in Crusade, the mayfly-lived sequel series which aired after its own cancellation and was jerked around by the network even more badly than Season 5 before it. It remains hard for me to tell how good the results were, but I watched them as they aired and still resent that the Bester episode never made it off the page.
But in general, I cannot get over the sheer amount of planning that went into this show. It has been a looooong time since I've watched something that rewards close viewing and analysis like this show does.
I've been trying to think of comparably scripted and successfully executed series and I've been having trouble. In many ways it's more like a five-year miniseries than even succeeding forms of television.
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I WILL NEVER BE OVER IT. Trust fall is such a good way to put it. The fact that they know their ending (they think) and have to repeatedly make the choice to ignore the tragedy that they think is waiting for them in order to love each other now (and it is tragic, but not like they think) is something that I'm not sure if I've ever seen before, at least to this degree.
It remains hard for me to tell how good the results were, but I watched them as they aired and still resent that the Bester episode never made it off the page.
NOOOO, we missed out on more Bester, blargh.
One thing that is very clear from the last few episodes is how much this was (I assume) conceived of as a universe where different series and storylines would tie into each other, MCU-style, and it's too bad that it never got to achieve that.
I've been trying to think of comparably scripted and successfully executed series and I've been having trouble. In many ways it's more like a five-year miniseries than even succeeding forms of television.
It is! I think the thing that makes it truly unique is that mid-series flash-forward ... which the show then holds to, for two and a half more seasons that takes us back to where we already saw it was going. I've seen this kind of nonlinear storytelling in movies and books, and I expect something like it probably exists in miniseries prestige TV by this point even though I'm drawing a blank on specific examples, but I cannot think of anything else that executed it over a multi-season TV arc. It seems almost staggeringly impossible to even conceive of being able to do it in multi-season TV, at a time when TV shows typically were not like this at all!
(I do feel like the fact that the show locks itself into its ending in mid season three gives it only a limited amount of flex in the last season, and the fatalism of the last few episodes, where it seems like the characters are being pushed into the fate we've already seen for them, is something I'm still trying to decide how to feel about. I don't know if the seeming passivity of the characters' choices towards the end only feels that way because we already know where they're going and now we're just seeing how they got there, or if the show actually does need to stack the deck a little bit to get to the established ending. But it's still an incredible achievement either way.)
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The actors who played those two characters were astonishingly good and the whole sweep of their relationship was operatic. The show really became a thing with galactic huge sweep, empires rising and falling, but they were at the middle of it.
Just such great writing too. Really an amazing thing. Thank you for the guided tour through your viewing.
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Same, though I'd probably include some of the final bits of s2 in there. Basically, when the Shadows conflict hits in earnest is when I think the show is at its best.
• And speaking of Londo and G'Kar, as a long-time lover of enemies-to-whatever arcs, that was an absolutely stunning one.
Yes! I think the most impressive example in all fiction I've consumed, because one of the unusual things about it is that they start out as enemies as fully grown adults who make conscious adult choices while they're enemies, so the enmity is very real and serious, and then they manage to transcend it anyway. (It doesn't seem to be iddy for me in a way a lot of enemies-to-whatever arcs are, and I'm not sure why, but I think maybe just because the show is so careful and elegant with already providing the perfect arcs that I can just appreciate it and don't need fic for it.)
• But in general, I cannot get over the sheer amount of planning that went into this show. It has been a looooong time since I've watched something that rewards close viewing and analysis like this show does.
oh my god, yes. I think it was JMS himself who said he was basically writing a novel for TV with this, and it's very much got that structure and care, but just the fact that he was able to sustain it for 5 years -- and also preserve the structure while handling real-life-necessitated character changes, like Michael O'Hare's mental illness and the uncertainty over season 5. Like, your characters don't leave on you halfway through a pivotal arc when you're writing a novel!
And if so, then it was G'Kar who gave him the tools to maintain that negotiating edge which has more or less carved out a small space to keep himself sane in the ongoing horror of his life with the Drakh
ooh, that's a great thought! Negotiating from a position of weakness, but where you do have something the other party needs, yes.
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Yeah; my previous gold standard/high-water mark for this kind of relationship was the protagonists in the Death Gate series of fantasy novels (which actually hits a lot of the same beats as Londo and G'Kar do, including empathy by way of accidental memory-sharing), but while those two definitely got their own thing going on and their own place in my heart, this just might have topped it for .... well, their everything, but especially (as you say) the extent to which this is a matter of choice for them, repeatedly opting into their enmity until they start to make other choices later on. Not to mention the fated-in-the-stars death-duel which is exactly the opposite of what it seems. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.
I think it was JMS himself who said he was basically writing a novel for TV with this, and it's very much got that structure and care, but just the fact that he was able to sustain it for 5 years -- and also preserve the structure while handling real-life-necessitated character changes, like Michael O'Hare's mental illness and the uncertainty over season 5. Like, your characters don't leave on you halfway through a pivotal arc when you're writing a novel!
I know!! I'm still boggling at the show actually telling you the ending in season three, and then sticking to it through two and a half more seasons and several cast changes. It is a feat. And having now watched a couple of interviews with JMS, I'm even more boggled, because apparently in addition to writing the scripts, he was hands-on with almost everything, not just on set but also things like (according to his own account, anyway) offering personal support to O'Hare after he had to leave the show and that kind of thing. In addition to everything else about the show that impresses me, I also think it's been a long time since I've had this kind of personal admiration for a creative person's feat of creativity; it's just a truly amazing achievement.
Negotiating from a position of weakness, but where you do have something the other party needs, yes.
Yeah! And like, I don't know if that's intended to be intentional, among the show's many other echoes of past and present. But it easily could be read that way.
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May there be sholific!!
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So glad you're delighting in this :D
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My gosh. When I rewatch, I will be watching for this, but from my memory, I think you're right. I don't recall thinking this before, but it totally fits.
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