Babylon 5 - 5x02

[sholio]

I'm sure everyone will be shocked, SHOCKED that "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" gets its own extremely screencap-laden post.


Before I get going on the Londo of it all, Vir is also a total MVP in this! I adore his goodbye with Lennier.



I am unbearably, helplessly charmed by Vir clumsily doing the Minbari hand gesture back at him ...



... and then just going for a hug. VIR. BABY. <333 (Lennier's storyline in this episode is sad but fitting. I don't want him to go, but I can see him not being able to stay, and I like the touch that Sheridan clearly understands his reasons better than Delenn does.)

There's also the scene with Vir and Garibaldi where Vir just completely *loses his shit* because he's desperately worried about Londo and absolutely Done with B5 and its constant nonsense.



"Can't you people get hobbies? Read a book or something?"

(I also like that Garibaldi is the one to come get Vir; he's clearly been sitting with Londo in the medbay, or at least checking in on him.)

Anyway, the Londo of it all! So I knew this episode happened, more or less; I had osmosed a vague idea of what happened in it (although, as it turned out, not exactly what happened; I didn't know he gave himself a heart attack through sheer stress from guilt - LONDO, HONEY) and I knew that he apologized in this episode, which on the one hand I guess would have been a stratospheric punch to the id if it had happened completely unspoiled, but on the other hand, it meant that I was following the track of Londo's non-apologies through the whole rest of the series because I had a general idea it was leading up to this.

And he really doesn't! You get the first textual indication that Londo, fronting like a boss, absolutely refuses to apologize for anything waaayyyy back in the technomage episode in early season two, when he actually comes right out and *says* that he doesn't apologize (talk about a long spear/Chekhov's gun) and in that episode, he is only pushed to apologize because they're literally going to kill him otherwise, or at least torment him to the edge of sanity. Not a single thing was learned from this experience. And then in his conversation with Vir in 4x05, he asymptotically approaches the concept of apologies with "Vir, I was very unkind to you" ... but that's as close as he can get.

And then again with G'Kar in his quarters in 4x15 - Londo circles around the concept but once again, he doesn't get there; he wants to be given credit for not enjoying G'Kar being hurt, he wants his friendly gesture to be reciprocated, but he just doesn't recognize that for all he thinks he's offering, he's approaching but then veering away from any sort of culpability for himself in this. He won't open up. He never does. He'd rather say that he needs no one than admit that he has a heart that could break. G'Kar in 4x05 tells him that his heart is empty - but it's not, it's just walled up, because hearts that are untouchably encased in glass cannot break.

(Things I never thought I'd see on a sci-fi show from the 90s: a character sobbing while beating with his fists at the glass separating himself from his own heart. WHAT IS THIS SHOW EVEN.)



I love that Londo, even in his comatose state, is clearly responding to what's happening in the real world - he hears Delenn, he hears Vir asking him not to die, and incorporates that into his guilt-fueled dream world (or afterlife/purgatory, or whatever is going on there), and the shift into the scene with him and Sheridan in the bar talking about being dead - which I really enjoyed, by the way - is presumably triggered by hearing Sheridan and Franklin talking in the real world. But there's also the secondary layer of the Centauri folktale he and Vir discuss in the coda - is this just a dream, or is it more? We don't know for sure.

I love the repeated motif of "turn around, turn around." He can't turn around, he knows what he'll see, and what he'll see is the blood his hands are drenched in, the constant specter of a dream-G'Kar who will make him face it.

And I can't get over that what eventually does make him turn around and face it is dream-Vir telling Londo that he'd miss him. Just that, just one person, one single person telling him that he cares about him and he'd miss him if he died that makes Londo turn towards the thing he fears most, the thing he's been running away from - his own guilt, his shame, the very deserved punishment he is afraid of - rather than accepting the death that he's starting to feel he deserves.

Meanwhile back in the real world ...



I really enjoyed Delenn sitting with Londo - I mean, just that she did it for as long as she could 'til Sheridan points out that she needs to sleep too; but also, her conversation with Sheridan about realizing that, for all the frustration Londo has caused her, she'd really miss him if he died. "I never felt sorry for him before today."



You know shit's gettin' real when the big needles in the heart come out.

I really like the scene with Franklin collapsing on the floor after they get Londo stabilized again, when Vir walks up behind him and asks if it's a death watch now. And Franklin can't tell him yes or no.





VIR. ♥ (His little "Don't die" kills me.)

Anyway, dying and trapped in the dreamworld of his own mind, galvanized by dream!Vir telling him that he'd miss him (but fueled by what he can subconsciously hear of real Vir asking him to live), Londo finally turns around, finally faces the thing he fears most: his own guilt and culpability in the fall of Narn, in G'Kar's torture, in everything that came from his pact with the Shadows.

One thing that has come up repeatedly in past discussions is B5 being more brutal, bloody, visceral than scifi normally is - in G'Kar's violation of Londo's mind, in the space battle scenes, and now in this episode, when Londo finally takes the final fall in his own head into his pit of well deserved guilt, and codes in the real world, where the resuscitation scenes are brutal.







I think it's especially interesting because most of the earlier medbay scenes weren't like this - we've even seen Franklin trying to revive patients before and it was a lot more bloodless than this, more scifi tech and less real-world defib and loved ones (Vir) losing it in the background and Franklin himself furiously yelling at Londo not to do this.

And this is underscored by cutting back and forth between the med team trying to resuscitate him IRL (with an utterly distressed Vir in the background) and Londo trapped in the dream world of the shock whip dungeon torture scene where he's both spectator and victim this time, cutting back and forth between torture in the dream world, the med team trying to resuscitate him, but either way he's a passive victim.

Except - he's not.

Dream!G'Kar (his heart, or his conscience, or the bit of G'Kar trapped in him, or all three) tells him, of course, what he didn't do, what he could have done, what he's been turning away from all this time.

(On a side note here, I feel like this episode is perhaps the strongest textual evidence so far that there *is* some kind of lingering connection between them after the Dust incident, because there's really no other explanation for G'Kar showing up in the medbay when he does, in the literal middle of the night, just about the time Londo actually crashes physically in the real world.)

Anyway, the episode pivots on this:

"One word, Mollari. One word was all that was required of you."
"It would not have mattered. It would not have changed anything. It would not have stopped!"
"You're wrong, Mollari. Whether it was me or my world, whether it was a total stranger or your worst enemy, you were a witness. It doesn't matter if they'd stop! It doesn't matter if they'd listen! You had an obligation to speak out."



The thing that is literally killing him is that he knew all along what right and wrong was. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He just didn't do anything about it, because he told himself it didn't matter, he told himself there was nothing he could do and he could only destroy himself by trying to stop it, he told himself going along with it in the service of a greater cause was worth it. And in the end, the repeated motif of "one word" means two things: one word is the word he could have said at the time, not to stop what was happening, but to openly acknowledge that he knew it was wrong; and it's the word he could say now to admit that he's culpable and he regrets it, and he finally, finally gets around to a place where he can say that he's sorry and really mean it.

And he breaks the glass separating himself from his own heart.

And he wakes up.



He wakes up gasping out that he's sorry, he wakes up saying it even when he has no breath to do anything other than form the words with his lips, and when he can finally speak, it's all he can say. "I'm sorry, G'Kar. I'm sorry."

And here's another thread from past episodes: the ongoing thread of Centauri apologizing to G'Kar for what their people have done, and the way it lands. There was the Emperor's apology, and G'Kar's visible shock and reaction, the way it sent him looking for Londo for the first friendly overture they'd ever had and the last one until late in season four: the first big betrayal. And there was Vir apologizing to him in late season two, very genuinely but also with no actual power to do anything about it. ("I tried to tell them. They didn't listen.") Vir at least did say something. It didn't help. And G'Kar, at that point, was in no place to listen either.

And then finally this.



It lands now in a way that I think it couldn't have before; it's not Vir's fault that his heartfelt apology wasn't the one G'Kar needed, or that none of them were (then) in a place then where it even could matter.

But now they are.

(Also love the coda scene in which we find out via Centauri folktale that there is every chance Londo has a celestially glorious soul chained to ... well ... him ... that he is slowly growing into being worthy of. There is a scene from Diana Wynne Jones' The Lives of Christopher Chant that I will never get over, in which the protagonists must rescue the ally/traitor Tacroy from his own treacherous people and they are given a challenge in which they must pick out Tacroy's soul from a selection of his people's souls, and they recognize Tacroy's soul out of all of his people because it is the only beautiful one - even though he has betrayed them, even after all that he's done - and this makes me think of that. It's not just what it is now, it's what it could be.)

Caps from here as always.

Comments

[philomytha]

Oh, now this episode I do remember watching! Everything I love in storytelling, all the angst and guilt and remorse and whump.... and I love the Chrestomanci link you make there, perfect.

And also, Vir is the best <333

[sholio]

This episode was just such an absolute id-filled whumpfest; it was great. Would happily watch it 10 more times (in fact I may).

♥ Vir!! ♥ I would never have guessed in season one that I'd adore him as much as I do now.

[melagan]

I watched this years ago, but I'd forgotten how good it is. I'm enjoying your B5 posts immensely.

[sholio]

Thank you!! I'm having a great time making them (and this episode was so RTMI it might as well have been written for me).

[sgatazmy]

Oh that title gives me chills. I remember watching this one many tomes but I’ve mostly forgotten it. Londo is such a character. And Vir!!!!!! I could squee over them all day.

[sholio]

They are such a total delight! I am just enjoying this so much.

[sovay]

I'm sure everyone will be shocked, SHOCKED that "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" gets its own extremely screencap-laden post.

I REJOICE.

(Seriously, on top of everything else this is a terrifically well-written review.)

Before I get going on the Londo of it all, Vir is also a total MVP in this! I adore his goodbye with Lennier.

"Hell of a life."

"You win."

So I knew this episode happened, more or less; I had osmosed a vague idea of what happened in it (although, as it turned out, not exactly what happened; I didn't know he gave himself a heart attack through sheer stress from guilt - LONDO, HONEY) and I knew that he apologized in this episode, which on the one hand I guess would have been a stratospheric punch to the id if it had happened completely unspoiled, but on the other hand, it meant that I was following the track of Londo's non-apologies through the whole rest of the series because I had a general idea it was leading up to this.

Hah! I did not know you had any foreknowledge of this episode, so despite the fact that its core conceit is so central to Londo's character that we have been talking about it for weeks, I was trying not to tip my half of the conversation in any direction that could accidentally give its existence away! It was, in fact, seen cold, a stratospheric whump.

(Things I never thought I'd see on a sci-fi show from the 90s: a character sobbing while beating with his fists at the glass separating himself from his own heart. WHAT IS THIS SHOW EVEN.)

And it's such a good image! Not just metaphorically, but visually: I love that you have a screencap of it because it's so stark and theatrical and effective, I know it's a soundstage and an actor and some underlighting and it's incredibly powerful. Lyrics from two extremely different songs have over the years found it underlying them for me.

But there's also the secondary layer of the Centauri folktale he and Vir discuss in the coda - is this just a dream, or is it more? We don't know for sure.

I am unsurprisingly on team dream-and-more, just because of the details that can't be deniably explained. The conversation with Sheridan actually provides some of the fuel for my suspicions/headcanon about Londo's telepathy, because while it's within normal parameters of dream for Sheridan to appear in the successive guises in which Londo knew him, it's another for him to keep on changing beyond the scope of the present day.

And I can't get over that what eventually does make him turn around and face it is dream-Vir telling Londo that he'd miss him. Just that, just one person, one single person telling him that he cares about him and he'd miss him if he died that makes Londo turn towards the thing he fears most, the thing he's been running away from - his own guilt, his shame, the very deserved punishment he is afraid of - rather than accepting the death that he's starting to feel he deserves.

Yes. And that it's Vir, who always saw something in him worth holding on to even when the literal rest of the galaxy had written him off. And there are no promises wrapped up in it, no second chances, no guarantees. Just Vir saying plainly, because he's never been afraid to, that he cares about Londo, and Londo for the first time in this night-journey—and for the first real time in their relationship—saying the same.

I also love that fortune-teller Delenn did not lie when she answered Londo's question: "Is there anyone back home who truly cares if I live or die?" – "Almost certainly not." She was just double-speaking after the classic fashion of oracles. On Centauri Prime, at this point, he may well be out of anything other than politically expedient shrugs. On this station, however? Apparently a night's worth of people will stop by to check in and Franklin will tear some holes in the station if he loses him.

torture in the dream world, the med team trying to resuscitate him

Linked by the device of the simultaneous shocks, which is brilliant. Shout-out also to the undignified realism of Londo's side-folded sex tentacles visible when his gown is ripped open, as part of the visceral chaos of the resuscitation.

(On a side note here, I feel like this episode is perhaps the strongest textual evidence so far that there *is* some kind of lingering connection between them after the Dust incident, because there's really no other explanation for G'Kar showing up in the medbay when he does, just about the time Londo actually crashes physically in the real world.)

Yes!! Everyone else's appearances can be handwaved as filtering in from unconsciously overheard reality, but G'Kar shows up at a point where Londo has explicitly no chance of awareness of his presence by regular means and a little differently from everyone else, as if he's striding right through those doors of the medbay into Londo's dream, as if he's come for something beyond the simple fact of Londo's survival or not. But I love at the same time how he appears as so many faces beyond himself, including Cartagia (which Andreas Katsulas looks like he had a whale of a time playing) because nothing in Londo's mindscape is doing just one thing. He gets to regard the anvillicious metaphor of the empty bottles with rightful disgust, but most of this experience is multivalent in the way of real dreams and in the established language of Babylon 5 real prophecies.

"It doesn't matter if they'd stop! It doesn't matter if they'd listen! You had an obligation to speak out."

In my head on repeat for God-damned weeks now.

There is a scene from Diana Wynne Jones' The Lives of Christopher Chant that I will never get over, in which the protagonists must rescue the ally/traitor Tacroy from his own treacherous people and they are given a challenge in which they must pick out Tacroy's soul from a selection of his people's souls, and they recognize Tacroy's soul out of all of his people because it is the only beautiful one - even though he has betrayed them, even after all that he's done - and this makes me think of that.

YES.

(I imprinted also on Tacroy. I believe we have talked about it. If not, look surprised.)

"It's your life, Mollari. Make of it what you will."

[sholio]

Hah! I did not know you had any foreknowledge of this episode, so despite the fact that its core conceit is so central to Londo's character that we have been talking about it for weeks, I was trying not to tip my half of the conversation in any direction that could accidentally give its existence away! It was, in fact, seen cold, a stratospheric whump.

And you did great! ♥ I decided not to say anything because I wasn't really sure what I had osmosed correctly (or whether any of it was) and didn't really want to get into it, and the conversations seemed to go fine without it. But I appreciate the effort, and I also love that we can now talk about the full sweep of his progress towards possibly the first actual apology of his entire life. (Londo, why are you like this. <3)

And it's such a good image! Not just metaphorically, but visually: I love that you have a screencap of it because it's so stark and theatrical and effective, I know it's a soundstage and an actor and some underlighting and it's incredibly powerful.

Yes, I didn't expect it at all and it's incredibly well done, as well as a really excellent metaphor-made-physical for what's going on with him emotionally.

I also love that fortune-teller Delenn did not lie when she answered Londo's question: "Is there anyone back home who truly cares if I live or die?" – "Almost certainly not." She was just double-speaking after the classic fashion of oracles. On Centauri Prime, at this point, he may well be out of anything other than politically expedient shrugs. On this station, however? Apparently a night's worth of people will stop by to check in and Franklin will tear some holes in the station if he loses him.

Yes!! I loved that, and I also loved - and did not expect - that as well as the episode being about Londo's internality, it was also about his connections to the people on the station. For all that he did to burn those bridges down, there's not a person among the core group who didn't stop by individually to sit with him, check on him, or otherwise be concerned about him. It wasn't just Vir.

Shout-out also to the undignified realism of Londo's side-folded sex tentacles visible when his gown is ripped open, as part of the visceral chaos of the resuscitation.

I noticed that, and I also love it; it's a believable detail, part of the undignified medical mess that he's in. (And once again the show has no problem showing Centauri cock on prime-time TV.)

Everyone else's appearances can be handwaved as filtering in from unconsciously overheard reality, but G'Kar shows up at a point where Londo has explicitly no chance of awareness of his presence by regular means and a little differently from everyone else, as if he's striding right through those doors of the medbay into Londo's dream, as if he's come for something beyond the simple fact of Londo's survival or not.

Yes! But also, of everything the show leaves open to interpretation, I would love to have seen a little more of G'Kar's end of that simply on an ordinary-person, non-numinous level - why *is* he there, what did he know already? Did he think about coming and decide not to, did he just find out or not know at all, etc. I can totally see him being galvanized into showing up at the medbay by a subconscious cue that he needs to be there *now*, some lingering vestige of connection, but I do find it interesting that everyone else who knows Londo stopped by and he doesn't seem to have done so until then, given that he and Londo very evidently do have something approaching a cautious friendship going by this point.

But I love at the same time how he appears as so many faces beyond himself, including Cartagia (which Andreas Katsulas looks like he had a whale of a time playing) because nothing in Londo's mindscape is doing just one thing. He gets to regard the anvillicious metaphor of the empty bottles with rightful disgust, but most of this experience is multivalent in the way of real dreams and in the established language of Babylon 5 real prophecies.

It is! And also, dream G'Kar gleefully savoring Londo's pain is such a visible shock compared to how real G'Kar interacts with him, even at their worst and lowest. It makes me think a little of their exchange back in the cell during the Cartagia arc, G'Kar asking Londo if he'd enjoy seeing him die, and Londo's "No. Maybe a long time ago ... no, not even then." G'Kar demonstrably would just stand by and watch Londo die in early season three, but even at that point I'm not sure that he would have enjoyed seeing him tortured, as dream!G'Kar is used by Londo's subconscious to torment him as he feels, on some level, that he deserves.

(I imprinted also on Tacroy. I believe we have talked about it. If not, look surprised.)

I can't remember if we've talked about it, but once again: absolutely shocking. (I read DWJ's books as an adult, and Tacroy had me at hello even when I didn't know anything else about him other than what Christopher sees, including what Christopher doesn't understand yet. Absolutely nothing that happened in the book changed my opinion.)

"It's your life, Mollari. Make of it what you will."

And so he does.

[sovay]

But I appreciate the effort, and I also love that we can now talk about the full sweep of his progress towards possibly the first actual apology of his entire life. (Londo, why are you like this. <3)

An impressively late-blooming process!

(But it really is incredibly well-tracked throughout the show and so very relevant to so many of his problems and in the same way that the guilt-weight suddenly overwhelms Londo, it isn't signposted as an arc as opposed to a character trait until all of a sudden it's the most important thing happening on screen. He must have gotten into so many duels when younger. If it takes a plausibly-deniably numinous heart attack to kick him into apologizing in middle age, can you imagine him backing down from anything as a young hotshot?)

I also loved - and did not expect - that as well as the episode being about Londo's internality, it was also about his connections to the people on the station. For all that he did to burn those bridges down, there's not a person among the core group who didn't stop by individually to sit with him, check on him, or otherwise be concerned about him. It wasn't just Vir.

Yes! And it explicitly doesn't have to do with his recent amends, as signaled by Delenn sitting there recalling him—and she's right, a silent, immobile Londo is a very weird sight—over the past five years. They have just known him too long not to care.

(And once again the show has no problem showing Centauri cock on prime-time TV.)

I have no idea how that kept getting past standards and practices and I'm so happy about it. Like, mostly what the viewer learns about the Narn reproductively is that they are marsupials, and unaltered Minbari don't menstruate, but about the Centauri, you even end up learning what hand gestures not to make in polite company.

But also, of everything the show leaves open to interpretation, I would love to have seen a little more of G'Kar's end of that simply on an ordinary-person, non-numinous level - why *is* he there, what did he know already?

*cough*missing scene*cough*

(I find it hard to imagine G'Kar deciding not to visit Londo at all, but I would wonder if he was still processing about it when he got kicked in the hindbrain, which I like the idea of.)

G'Kar demonstrably would just stand by and watch Londo die in early season three, but even at that point I'm not sure that he would have enjoyed seeing him tortured, as dream!G'Kar is used by Londo's subconscious to torment him as he feels, on some level, that he deserves.

Yes! It is evocatively out of character and so indicates as much about G'Kar as about what Londo's conscience is using his face for. And I love that it is specifically

(I read DWJ's books as an adult, and Tacroy had me at hello even when I didn't know anything else about him other than what Christopher sees, including what Christopher doesn't understand yet. Absolutely nothing that happened in the book changed my opinion.)

Would put a love react here if DW allowed them. The Lives of Christopher Chant may have been the first novel I read by Diana Wynne Jones, i.e. before Charmed Life or any of the rest of the Chrestomanci series; I was about seven at the time. Tacroy just smashed himself into my id and never went anywhere. I hadn't made the connection of souls, but I love that you did. (Londo has proven himself the kind of person who will, for the sake of someone else, at whatever cost to himself, lie and be believed.)

[sholio]

He must have gotten into so many duels when younger. If it takes a plausibly-deniably numinous heart attack to kick him into apologizing in middle age, can you imagine him backing down from anything as a young hotshot?

UGH, this is so accurate. We talked about Londo placing his trust in the wrong people as part of what kept him from realizing his potential in the Centauri court, but burning his bridges with people who might otherwise have been allies could easily have been a part of that, too. (At the same time he doesn't seem like he's particularly unusual for a Centauri of the noble class in being that way. Vir is the unusual one, with his openheartedness and lack of desire for advancement.)

As you said in a different comment elsewhere, imagining young Londo as a jock is not hard.

And it explicitly doesn't have to do with his recent amends, as signaled by Delenn sitting there recalling him—and she's right, a silent, immobile Londo is a very weird sight—over the past five years. They have just known him too long not to care.

I love this point, and this was also floating around in my head as I wrote the fic I posted today. They know him, in all his best and worst qualities, and at the end, they're there for him. It's a friendship very heavily freighted by everything that has come before, but at the end of it all, they aren't going to walk away. There may be no one on Centauri Prime who cares, but B5 is a different story.

(Although even that part may not be completely true. We already know Timov may not like him, but she'll donate her own blood to save him.)

I have no idea how that kept getting past standards and practices and I'm so happy about it. Like, mostly what the viewer learns about the Narn reproductively is that they are marsupials, and unaltered Minbari don't menstruate, but about the Centauri, you even end up learning what hand gestures not to make in polite company.

I know, and I can't believe it either, but I love it.

It's also interesting to me that Centauri, the most human-looking on the outside, seem to have the most non-human sexual apparatus of the main humanlike races on the show. We can infer from evidence that Minbari are sexually compatible with humans (at least altered Minbari are) and so are Narns, based on G'Kar taking human lovers in the first season. (Though now that I think about it, he also sleeps with one of Londo's wives, so it's possible that G'Kar is simply a xenosexual weirdo by Narn standards.) A Centauri and a human could definitely have sex if they were motivated enough, but they'd have to really work on making it fun for both parties.

(I find it hard to imagine G'Kar deciding not to visit Londo at all, but I would wonder if he was still processing about it when he got kicked in the hindbrain, which I like the idea of.)

Yeah, for the fic that I wrote, I obviously went with "kick in the hindbrain" because I had to pick something for dramatic purposes, but in actual canon fact I'm completely on the fence about it; it also could easily be that he's been going in circles in his own head about it all night and that point when he finally snapped into decision focus, through fate or their binary-stars-in-orbit synchronicity or pure chance, happened to be that moment. And there's also the possibility that he literally hadn't heard - it's a compressed enough time frame, and a late enough hour, that no one thinking to go inform G'Kar makes reasonable sense - and the moment when he found out was the moment when he made a beeline for the medlab.

I like that it works if we don't know. I still want to know! And I agree that it doesn't seem likely he would never have shown up at all. He just might've had to work himself up to it.

I do find it interesting that the show itself explicitly acknowledges the possibility of a lingering connection between them in this episode, for the first time since the events of "Dust to Dust" occurred. And we do know from what happened with Sheridan and Kosh that that kind of thing is possible.

It is evocatively out of character and so indicates as much about G'Kar as about what Londo's conscience is using his face for. And I love that it is specifically

You stopped mid-sentence! I need the rest!

Because yeah, it is blatantly out of character for G'Kar, but Londo's subconscious has cast him firmly in the role of punishment and revenge - the deliverer of the pain that Londo thinks he deserves. It is really interesting that the one character in the dream who has the strongest in-universe potential for actually being there in some sense ... is also the one who acts least like himself and who is most obviously an avatar of Londo's own subconscious, the part of Londo that believes that he deserves to be whipped to death for his crimes.

(Thinking about it from that perspective, it's really interesting that he breaks at the same point G'Kar did in reality, and with the same result, albeit for a completely different reason: he lives. Londo's subconscious acknowledging that he doesn't deserve to die under those conditions any more than G'Kar did? Or just that reaching parity, so to speak, was enough to satisfy whatever part of himself wanted to torture himself that way?)

[sovay]

We talked about Londo placing his trust in the wrong people as part of what kept him from realizing his potential in the Centauri court, but burning his bridges with people who might otherwise have been allies could easily have been a part of that, too. (At the same time he doesn't seem like he's particularly unusual for a Centauri of the noble class in being that way. Vir is the unusual one, with his openheartedness and lack of desire for advancement.)

Agreed on the general culture and it still makes me think that if Londo had all of that no-chill flamboyance without the complementary interpersonal acumen, then of course he could have found himself on the outs with the Centauri cursus honorum by middle age.

and this was also floating around in my head as I wrote the fic I posted today. They know him, in all his best and worst qualities, and at the end, they're there for him. It's a friendship very heavily freighted by everything that has come before, but at the end of it all, they aren't going to walk away.

I'm so glad that that's what you wrote. I really love it.

(And we know that Londo would do the same because he already has, sitting up with Lennier after the bombings. For any of them, he'd be there all night.)

(Although even that part may not be completely true. We already know Timov may not like him, but she'll donate her own blood to save him.)

(She did! Londo doesn't know it, though, so the part of this experience that's his subconscious processing would not have her on hand as a counterexample, and the part of this experience that may be something else has hedged its bets with the "almost" of "certainly not.")

(Though now that I think about it, he also sleeps with one of Londo's wives, so it's possible that G'Kar is simply a xenosexual weirdo by Narn standards.)

I am pretty sure this is a true fact about G'Kar and I love it. People on Babylon 5 don't just get to be flawed in dramatically propulsive ways, they get to be weird.

Yeah, for the fic that I wrote, I obviously went with "kick in the hindbrain" because I had to pick something for dramatic purposes

It's quite good for dramatic purposes!

but in actual canon fact I'm completely on the fence about it; it also could easily be that he's been going in circles in his own head about it all night and that point when he finally snapped into decision focus, through fate or their binary-stars-in-orbit synchronicity or pure chance, happened to be that moment. And there's also the possibility that he literally hadn't heard - it's a compressed enough time frame, and a late enough hour, that no one thinking to go inform G'Kar makes reasonable sense - and the moment when he found out was the moment when he made a beeline for the medlab.

That's actually a really good point. I would love to know what their total weirdness about one another looks like to outside observers at this point.

I like that it works if we don't know. I still want to know!

Agreed on both counts!

I do find it interesting that the show itself explicitly acknowledges the possibility of a lingering connection between them in this episode, for the first time since the events of "Dust to Dust" occurred. And we do know from what happened with Sheridan and Kosh that that kind of thing is possible.

Yes. If that was always in reserve from the third season, this episode was the perfect time to pull it out.

You stopped mid-sentence! I need the rest!

Oh, my God, I was so tired!

That sentence was supposed to lead into "specifically Cartagia," because in addition to all the really good points you make about the roles in which Londo casts G'Kar, it fascinates me that this sequence is the one part of Londo's dream/NDE which is directly transposed from his life. We can tell from its prominence in his dreamscape that the whipping of G'Kar is one of his two greatest points of shame over his own silence equaling complicity, the other being his similar witnessing of the bombardment of Narn. The crime against humanity is objectively of greater magnitude, but the personal atrocity is the one that stalks him, the actinic light of the electro-whip flashing at least once behind him when he's refusing to turn around and face everything waiting for him. Londo himself may not even know where to start reckoning with the responsibility for the deaths of millions, but he knows what he didn't do when Cartagia was playing with his stubborn toy.

(Thinking about it from that perspective, it's really interesting that he breaks at the same point G'Kar did in reality, and with the same result, albeit for a completely different reason: he lives. Londo's subconscious acknowledging that he doesn't deserve to die under those conditions any more than G'Kar did? Or just that reaching parity, so to speak, was enough to satisfy whatever part of himself wanted to torture himself that way?)

When Londo broaches the subject of G'Kar's torture in "No Surrender, No Retreat," he frames it in terms of sacrifice—physically, pain endured, the loss of an eye; emotionally, humiliation, the loss of dignity and pride. And that last is Londo's sticking point and has been as long as we've known him, the going-nowhere joke ambassador of a waning power who can brazen out being caught cheating at cards (with his junk, no less) but can't bear to be seen as having been, about anything that really matters, wrong. As you pointed out in the third season, he'd doubled himself down into a place where he could deal better with being hated than being laughed at, better a monster than a failure or a fool. His apology to the technomages really was a case of being sorry for getting caught (plus extortion by Narn opera and five hundred thousand shares in Fireflies, Inc). He won't admit vulnerability until the very last moment of it damn near killing him. So it does feel like a gesture of empathy/reciprocity to transpose himself into G'Kar's place, suffering what he brought G'Kar to suffer, but it also feels to me like part of getting to the point of real apology, of being able to sacrifice enough of his own pride to acknowledge that he galactically fucked up. And then having—broken himself—he can apologize without coercion, completely meaning it. He can just make the choice.

(I find it both deeply enjoyable and telling that one of the signature elements of the relationship he and G'Kar have formed by this point is that G'Kar can tease him. Londo is really not at home to teasing. He probably never has been. And G'Kar can just yank his chain and Londo will put up with it and vice versa.)

[sholio]

(And we know that Londo would do the same because he already has, sitting up with Lennier after the bombings. For any of them, he'd be there all night.)

Yes!! And now they give it back, and just, oh, everyone. *heartclutch*

Londo doesn't know it, though, so the part of this experience that's his subconscious processing would not have her on hand as a counterexample, and the part of this experience that may be something else has hedged its bets with the "almost" of "certainly not."

That's a really good point! I forgot he never actually knew about it.

People on Babylon 5 don't just get to be flawed in dramatically propulsive ways, they get to be weird.

Yes! Just a bunch of weirdos in space. I love them.

I would love to know what their total weirdness about one another looks like to outside observers at this point.

Would read.

That sentence was supposed to lead into "specifically Cartagia," because in addition to all the really good points you make about the roles in which Londo casts G'Kar, it fascinates me that this sequence is the one part of Londo's dream/NDE which is directly transposed from his life.

Ah!! I'm glad I asked, because all the rest of this meta is just thoroughly wonderful and I want to absorb it through my pores. (And no problem at all, I definitely have left things out or completely garbled sentences, with far less cause.)

We can tell from its prominence in his dreamscape that the whipping of G'Kar is one of his two greatest points of shame over his own silence equaling complicity, the other being his similar witnessing of the bombardment of Narn. The crime against humanity is objectively of greater magnitude, but the personal atrocity is the one that stalks him, the actinic light of the electro-whip flashing at least once behind him when he's refusing to turn around and face everything waiting for him. Londo himself may not even know where to start reckoning with the responsibility for the deaths of millions, but he knows what he didn't do when Cartagia was playing with his stubborn toy.

*muffled screaming*

I also think he's kind of sublimated the deaths of millions into G'Kar as an avatar of the Narn, in a similar way to how Londo was clearly the face of the Centauri for G'Kar in earlier seasons. The Narn genocide is too big to mentally handle, but G'Kar as someone who he can personally make amends to is a little easier to deal with. Of course it's not just that, as you point out from the absolute centrality of the whipping scene in his dreamscape; that really *is* the pivot that his soul-crushing guilt is currently resting on. The dead on Narn don't have a face (though his guilt as personified by G'Kar in the dream does put details to those deaths as well, to some extent). But the guilt of knowing he stood by and watched someone he knows and likes, someone he's coming to care about, beaten and brutalized almost to death, and did nothing, is absolutely drowning him.

I saw the blue flash earlier in the episode but didn't realize what it was! You're right, though. God, this show is so well done.

physically, pain endured, the loss of an eye; emotionally, humiliation, the loss of dignity and pride. And that last is Londo's sticking point and has been as long as we've known him, the going-nowhere joke ambassador of a waning power who can brazen out being caught cheating at cards (with his junk, no less) but can't bear to be seen as having been, about anything that really matters, wrong. [...] So it does feel like a gesture of empathy/reciprocity to transpose himself into G'Kar's place, suffering what he brought G'Kar to suffer, but it also feels to me like part of getting to the point of real apology, of being able to sacrifice enough of his own pride to acknowledge that he galactically fucked up.

I love this analysis and I think it tracks perfectly. I hadn't been able to parse all the levels the show was going for with the roleswap (beyond simply Londo wanting to make himself suffer what G'Kar suffered), but I think you're exactly right.

(I find it both deeply enjoyable and telling that one of the signature elements of the relationship he and G'Kar have formed by this point is that G'Kar can tease him. Londo is really not at home to teasing. He probably never has been. And G'Kar can just yank his chain and Londo will put up with it and vice versa.)

I love this! <333 And that's such a good point that he's not used to this being an element in his friendships - I think in particular, he's not really that comfortable being on the receiving end (he's perfectly capable of being a sarcastic little shit, provided he's in control of the situation; not really so much with being made fun of). But it's a core element of the way he and G'Kar relate to each other.

[sovay]

That's a really good point! I forgot he never actually knew about it.

Londo's marriages generally slip my mind because they have so little to do with his emotional life, but that episode does a lot to sell him and Timov as a couple, if not a romantic one—they both prefer honesty and Londo as always builds the strongest relationships with the people who call him on his shenanigans—which is a sufficiently neat dynamic that I would not have minded seeing her return for the Centauri arc of Season 4, although it's not like there was a lot of spare room in those episodes even for the actual plot.

I'm glad I asked, because all the rest of this meta is just thoroughly wonderful and I want to absorb it through my pores.

Aaagh thank you! I really don't have any difficulty in letting this show take over my brain. I appreciate your encouragement of it.

The dead on Narn don't have a face (though his guilt as personified by G'Kar in the dream does put details to those deaths as well, to some extent). But the guilt of knowing he stood by and watched someone he knows and likes, someone he's coming to care about, beaten and brutalized almost to death, and did nothing, is absolutely drowning him.

Zero disagreement, that's beautifully put, and it feels crucial that in addition to all of his other functions in this dream-quest of Londo's, G'Kar is important as himself. He has to be. The whole thing falls apart if it's just, in Vir's words, a metaphor.

I love this analysis and I think it tracks perfectly. I hadn't been able to parse all the levels the show was going for with the roleswap (beyond simply Londo wanting to make himself suffer what G'Kar suffered), but I think you're exactly right.

Thank you! It's just an episode with a ton in it. And wasn't nominated for a thing.

I think in particular, he's not really that comfortable being on the receiving end (he's perfectly capable of being a sarcastic little shit, provided he's in control of the situation; not really so much with being made fun of).

Agreed! He is an effortless snarker! But G'Kar is really the only person he'll take it from in return.

(Vir can be amazingly sarcastic, but usually in the third person.)

[sholio]

Coming back to add, because I'm still thinking about this, that Londo's subconscious putting G'Kar into Cartagia's place instead of his own, when he's clearly roleflipping their positions in the shock whip scenario, really is a fascinating window into his mental state, isn't it? He doesn't put G'Kar in the role that he actually had in that scenario, which was a bystander (admittedly a culpable bystander) being, in essence, forced at (metaphorical, but implied) gunpoint to watch. His conscience-G'Kar is right that he had a duty to speak out, and he's right to feel guilty. But he was also at least partly a victim of Cartagia's sadism in that situation himself - but that doesn't seem to be how he's mentally parsing it.

[sovay]

His conscience-G'Kar is right that he had a duty to speak out, and he's right to feel guilty. But he was also at least partly a victim of Cartagia's sadism in that situation himself - but that doesn't seem to be how he's mentally parsing it.

You're right. I wonder if he would believe it if anyone pointed it out to him. (G'Kar probably at some point should.)

[sheron]

♥

This is an extremely rewatchable episode and also I'm really glad you're enjoying the show so much :D

[sholio]

It is certainly going on my mental list of favorite h/c episodes. ♥ There was actually a lot more "c" than the show typically gives us, which I also appreciated!

[selenak]

This is one of my all time favourite episodes of the show, and I've written both endless meta and fanfiction dealing with it. It holds up rewatching every time, and keeps giving gifts. The last time I rewatched, my favourite detail of Londo subconsciously incorporating what is outside going on within his dreamworld is Delenn's reply to Sheridan's offer to talk to Lennier, and whether that would help (i.e. "Almost certainly not") being given to soothsayer!Delenn in his dream as a reply to his question whether someone back home would care if he lived or died.

And here's another thread from past episodes: the ongoing thread of Centauri apologizing to G'Kar

Remember Emperor Turhan's message, related via Franklin, about how nothing would change until a representative of the Centauri Republic said to a Narn "I'm sorry" and meant it?

Londo finding the strength to turn around, live and face his guilt through Vir's affection for him: says something so profound about their relationship. And is a great narrative pay-off to Vir insisting to Delenn and Lennier in mid s3, when Londo arguably was at his lowest, darkest point, that "one day, he will surprise you", and to stick with London even though he knows exactly what Londo is capable of and did.

[sholio]

This episode was SUCH a delight, on every level. I can see myself continuing to analyze it endlessly.

The last time I rewatched, my favourite detail of Londo subconsciously incorporating what is outside going on within his dreamworld is Delenn's reply to Sheridan's offer to talk to Lennier, and whether that would help (i.e. "Almost certainly not") being given to soothsayer!Delenn in his dream as a reply to his question whether someone back home would care if he lived or died.

Oh, that is wonderful, what a great catch! I love the weaving back and forth between the dream world and the real world, with all the distorted echoes of things he's actually experiencing. It also makes it feel very integrated, so that his dreamscape isn't separate from the real world (and his relationships with the people there), but is very much a part of it.

Remember Emperor Turhan's message, related via Franklin, about how nothing would change until a representative of the Centauri Republic said to a Narn "I'm sorry" and meant it?

Ohhhhhhh! I remembered the apology but not the framing.

Londo finding the strength to turn around, live and face his guilt through Vir's affection for him: says something so profound about their relationship. And is a great narrative pay-off to Vir insisting to Delenn and Lennier in mid s3, when Londo arguably was at his lowest, darkest point, that "one day, he will surprise you", and to stick with London even though he knows exactly what Londo is capable of and did.

YES. It's also really interesting to notice the "casting", so to speak, in his dream, with Delenn as a kind of gatekeeper or oracle, Sheridan offering camaraderie on their shared experience and straightforward advice, Vir as a source of affection and support, and G'Kar as condemnation, punishment, and moral clarity. It's interesting because it's not exactly the relationships he has with them in the waking world, and in particular, not the whole relationship; but it's definitely a wavering, seen-through-glass reflection of them, and how he sees them, and himself in relationship to them.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I could not remember this episode at all, from the title, but your recap brought it back—especially how it felt.

My husband has a lot of travel coming up this summer, and maybe I will rewatch.

[sholio]

I hope you get a chance to! I am very glad to add this show to my inner landscape of beloved canons; it has been rewarding my watching beautifully so far.