B5 4x14 & 4x15

[sholio]

"Moments of Transition" and "No Surrender, No Retreat"


4x14 "Moments of Transition"

NEROON NOOOOOO. T__T

I figured there was a pretty good chance he was headed for a heroic sacrifice eventually (it seems very in keeping with his arc) but I didn't want it to happen so soon! To save Delenn, too. T__T And they really did plan the whole thing together, which I love. I admittedly wasn't *that* invested in the Minbari civil war, but I've enjoyed Delenn taking a leadership role once again, and remaking the Grey Council in a different shape. (Orion and I had been speculating for the last couple of episodes that the workers actually outnumber either the religious or warrior caste by quite a lot - it just makes sense in terms of societal demographics - so the 3x3x3 council never really was that fair anyway.)

Bester is always a good time, though the Psi Corps storyline was just kind of sad this time. Lyta being outmaneuvered back into the Corps was heartbreaking, though I assume that Bester at least somewhat knows that she was behind the destruction of Z'ha'dum (hence taking away the chance at fixing Carolyn) so the revenge is personal this time. And we now have confirmation that the Corps is indeed behind Garibaldi's brainwashing (also, as a side note on that, I was rewatching some scenes from 4x02 earlier today, mainly the Cartagia storyline, but I also noticed that Garibaldi's captors have the signature black gloves, so - yeah). But it doesn't really help to know that, no one else knows it and Garibaldi is steadily being severed from the rest of the group. I did enjoy Zack's suspicion of Bester and particularly that scene where Bester turns around and Zack is on the stairs above him.

At the moment, I can't remember if Ivanova coming into Sheridan's office spitting mad about the Earth ships firing on the refugees was at the end of this episode or the start of the next one - I think the end of this one? - but there's something so honest and real about her suppressed fury that I found very relatable. "I'll make the broadcast as soon as I calm down."


4x15 "No Surrender, No Retreat"

The space battle was tense and fun! I still think he needs a good friend who will tell him off now and then this season, but I love Sheridan and his twisty little brain. I love that he is a tactically smart character who genuinely is tactically smart. I loved him trying to draw off as many ships as possible with a feint in earth space and then walking the line between taking on aggressors and not allowing his fleet to fire on anything that's not attacking them. And I liked the different outcomes on the ships - the friend of Sheridan who was relieved of duty and then had his crew take out his 2IC, and the main enemy ship where the 2IC took over in order to surrender.

(Could not figure out why the main enemy captain looked so familiar until I realized he was Dr. Kelso from Scrubs. I mean, if Kelso was put in charge of a warship, that's probably what he'd be like.)

Garibaldi's storyline continues to be sad. "When are you coming back?" "I'm not." T___T

But it should come as no great surprise that the Narn-Centauri storyline was my favorite thing about the episode.

First of all: Vir! Baby!! It's been so long! He is clearly having nightmares about Cartagia's murder - "I didn't do it!" And Vir's slept-on Centauri hair that's squashed on one side. HONEY. I just want to pet him. But I love him switching into serious mode when he's arguing with Garibaldi. (Also talking about having to follow orders you don't like, LOLOLLLLL. "I don't always like the way Londo does things - well, me and most civilized worlds.") Vir really does have a moral core of steel, given everything he's had to push back against. Also trying to explain where Londo is: "He's arranging a meeting with G'K-- He's in a meeting." AHAHAHAHA REALLY, YOU DON'T SAY.

And then the whole scene in G'Kar's quarters. HNNNNGGGHHHH. I love that we actually get to see their interactions in full for a change, and Londo's whole entire - just - thing here, pretzeling himself trying to do something that is very hard for him and be conciliatory and apologetic and thank G'Kar for his help (which G'Kar wants absolutely none of) without actually being *too* apologetic or *too* conciliatory or admitting that he's actually done anything wrong.

(G'Kar's skepticism verging on "I am not murdering you with my bare hands simply because I can't be bothered to get up from this desk, but wow are you ever testing the limits of my newfound pacifism.")

I love that they start off with insults and then Londo is the one to pull back and point out that they just can't seem to help it, they fall back into familiar patterns as they orbit each other, "like comets that flare when they come too close to the sun". HOW IS THIS SHOW EVEN.

Anyway, there's probably more emotional honesty in this conversation, on Londo's end at least, than in like an entire season of the conversations he has normally. "We have never been friends, we will never be friends - but I did feel for you." And everything about not knowing who the enemy is anymore ("if I, with a single wrong word, can become the enemy" - it was a little more than that, Londo, but better late than never with the introspection) ... "but I know who my friends are, and that I have not done as well by them as I should. I hope to change that. I hope to do better."

Also, LMAO at G'Kar literally holding up a page of writing to block out Londo at one point. He could have avoided this entire conversation by just not letting him into his quarters, but no. They are! So weird about each other!

G'Kar still would rather pour back a drink than share one with Londo. Londo looks genuinely hurt, too. It's like: LONDO WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS, you literally destroyed his world. But also, UGH THE THEM OF IT ALL.

And then, finally!! The scene with them in the bar at the end! It's more of an olive twig (maybe a leaf. a leaf bud.) than an olive branch, but G'Kar does sort of take him up on that drink after all. Londo has clearly been sitting there alone, with the extra drink available, just in case. They don't quite drink together. But he does drink. And: "I'll sign the treaty, but not on the same page." And then Londo's little smile after G'Kar walks away. HELP, I LOVE THEM. <3333

Edit: Also, as is often the case on this show, I love how the title refers to both the A and B plots - not just Sheridan's war against Earth, but also, in total contrast, both Londo and G'Kar doing the hard thing and taking cautious first steps towards peace between their worlds, as well as between them personally.

Comments

[sovay]

I figured there was a pretty good chance he was headed for a heroic sacrifice eventually (it seems very in keeping with his arc) but I didn't want it to happen so soon!

The duration of the Minbari civil war is visibly a casualty of the crunched season and I will always be bitter over the extra Neroon we could have had. That said, I love that when he goes out like a badass, it is once again in defense of another: that the wheel has to take someone and as much as the sacrifice could not have its effect without his claiming of religious caste, he seems at the same time to embody the best of the warrior caste as he does it, another bridge.

And then the whole scene in G'Kar's quarters. HNNNNGGGHHHH.

I COULD NOT MENTION THIS SCENE WAS COMING UP AND I REMEMBER IT BETTER THAN THE LEGITIMATELY GOOD SPACE TACTICS.

(I am a target audience for good space battles! It is just that my idea of fanservice is an epically awkward conversation between two middle-aged weirdos who have been around the moral block a few times.)

(G'Kar's skepticism verging on "I am not murdering you with my bare hands simply because I can't be bothered to get up from this desk, but wow are you ever testing the limits of my newfound pacifism.")

YES.

And the way—tying into your observations a post or two ago—that right up until that deadeye rebuff of the shared drink, the thing that bothers Londo the most is the sarcastic insinuation that he enjoyed G'Kar's pain. He clearly came in with some plan for the conversation and it just all flew off the handle the second that caught him on the raw. I very much doubt he meant to be that emotionally honest, even when it's obvious from space that he doesn't have a chance of making his case without it. Of course G'Kar calls it out of him. And all of that said, "I have made some . . . very poor choices in the last two years" is an understatement of supermassive proportions and G'Kar is just lucky he didn't roll his artificial eye out of his head at that one.

But he does drink. And: "I'll sign the treaty, but not on the same page."

I love how simultaneously that statement is a groundbreaking commitment of alliance, a boundary condition which Londo has to respect, and hilariously petty.

[sholio]

The duration of the Minbari civil war is visibly a casualty of the crunched season and I will always be bitter over the extra Neroon we could have had.

I also weep for what we could have had! But he definitely went out like a badass, and I agree with the rest as well - in fact the 11th-hour religious caste conversion doesn't quite sit right with me (as much as it needed to happen for plot purposes) because I do feel like he's the very best of the warrior caste and he always has been: honorable but not inflexible, dedicated to tradition but willing to change when he could see what was right. I wish he had been there to help guide the Minbari into their new era, because I think he would have been uniquely good at it and it's a shame that his eventual contribution was "heroic sacrifice" instead of becoming a leader on his world in Delenn's absence. They could have worked so well together.

I COULD NOT MENTION THIS SCENE WAS COMING UP AND I REMEMBER IT BETTER THAN THE LEGITIMATELY GOOD SPACE TACTICS.

YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DYING.

(I am a target audience for good space battles! It is just that my idea of fanservice is an epically awkward conversation between two middle-aged weirdos who have been around the moral block a few times.)

SAAAAAME. I love me a good space battle! And this was a really good space battle, and I did love it! (I especially love how this show humanizes the otherwise dry f/x-based dynamics of CGI space battles, where you also see the distinct interpersonal interactions on the other ships that they're fighting enough to get a feel for them as people whose deaths would be tragic, even if we're obviously primed to sympathize with Our Characters first and foremost.)

But yeah, no, I've been waiting to see Londo and G'Kar have an actual conversation, not just since 4x06 but possibly for entire seasons, and this episode DELIVERED.

right up until that deadeye rebuff of the shared drink, the thing that bothers Londo the most is the sarcastic insinuation that he enjoyed G'Kar's pain. He clearly came in with some plan for the conversation and it just all flew off the handle the second that caught him on the raw.

Yes! And probably the thing that makes it all work out as well as it does is that Londo is startled and hurt into into uncomfortable honesty, a piece of himself that he didn't mean to share.

This episode was actually my first realization of the big thing that shifted in their relationship during the Cartagia arc, and it's this: Londo cares about him now. He didn't want to, he didn't plan to, he comes close to admitting it here but not quite in those terms, but it's entirely obvious both in his hurt when G'Kar refuses his friendly overture, and his quiet, visible shock and delight when it's accepted later (and the fact that he's sitting there at the bar waiting for it, it's not the joint statement that he's really inviting, it's G'Kar giving him some tiny overture of friendship back). Londo has never hated G'Kar, and if things hadn't gone so completely sideways in season two, it's definitely possible that they could've developed a quiet truce building into a sort of uneasy friendship based on mutual respect then. Caring, if it came, would've come later.

Instead they got this. And G'Kar's Dust-fueled rampage and epiphany about the mutually doomed cycle of the Narn and Centauri catapulted him very visibly into a different life trajectory, it gave him some unwanted empathy for Londo that he didn't have before, but it didn't make him like him.

But the Cartagia arc made Londo like G'Kar. (While having the opposite effect on G'Kar, for obvious reasons.) There were a lot of changes in him for other reasons and they're subtle ones, not like G'Kar's very visible breakdown and rebuilding of himself. I think Vir's reaction to Cartagia's death, and just that general chain of events, had at least as much to do with Londo's various quiet moral epiphanies than what happened with G'Kar. But one thing did tilt completely off its axis during that time, and it's that Londo cares now.

(And you see it even on Narn, in the dungeon scene. This is actually one of the things I was rewatching for yesterday, without really considering it in those terms: after we were talking about Londo's general lack of fear of G'Kar, I wanted to see how close he gets to him throughout that sequence of conspiratorial meetings. In their first meeting when the terms are arranged, he very sensibly stays out of reach of G'Kar's chains - it's not at all unreasonable that G'Kar would attack him at that point, or try to use him for leverage to escape. But on Narn, after G'Kar's eye is put out, Londo crouches next to him on the floor, close enough to touch. The idea that G'Kar might attack him - which he clearly could - doesn't even seem to occur to him. His sympathy and horror is obvious to us, if not to G'Kar. He locks down any sympathy that might have been showing after the "your heart is empty" conversation, and because he can't have any trace of softness right now getting between him and the politically expedient murder that he's planning. But you can see it right there in the first few minutes of that scene. Watching G'Kar stoically suffer over the past few episodes, and at least partly because of him, has dragged him kicking and screaming past whatever respectfully wary mutual hatedom they've got going on and facefirst into actually liking the guy. He cares.)

He cares enough to face G'Kar instead of running away, he cares what G'Kar thinks of him, he wants G'Kar to reciprocate his friendly gestures. He never hated him, but the friendliest he ever was with G'Kar was when he was treating him as a means to an end. And that's what he came here to do in this episode, too, but now he looks at G'Kar and he sees a person that he not only respects but also likes and wants to like him - the way Londo typically is with people he likes - and neither of them know what to do with that, least of all G'Kar, who is left staring at Londo making the least apologetic apology of all time, and practicing his newly invented Narn-Zen grounding skills.

I love how simultaneously that statement is a groundbreaking commitment of alliance, a boundary condition which Londo has to respect, and hilariously petty.

It is so perfectly, utterly them.

It also highlights something about their relationship that has been absolutely fascinating to me so far, which is how often Londo takes the lead, and G'Kar lets him, but not without setting his own conditions and making Londo agree to it. This is another reason why I wish we could've seen the negotiations on their Refa team-up, because it was definitely Londo's idea and Londo who brought it to him, but I'm sure that at least some of the counter-conditions were G'Kar's; I wonder what the original deal was supposed to be, because I'm sure that Londo planned to offer him something, but I suspect that G'Kar counter-offered and made him say yes (and probably in a similar way to what we saw in both their dungeon interactions and here - it's *not* a negotiation, G'Kar is simply telling him under what conditions he'll do it, and Londo can either say yes or no). Londo's recording to Refa presents the whole thing as entirely his idea, but while coming to G'Kar with it was definitely his idea, I'm sure the eventual plan was G'Kar's counteroffer as much as anything.

(I continue to be able to talk about them endlessly.)

[sovay]

I wish he had been there to help guide the Minbari into their new era, because I think he would have been uniquely good at it and it's a shame that his eventual contribution was "heroic sacrifice" instead of becoming a leader on his world in Delenn's absence. They could have worked so well together.

Fix-it accepted, thank you. I shall continue to think of him back on Minbar, doing his occasionally ruffled and high-handed, always honorable and far more open to change than at first glance visible thing.

(Yeah: he can't die in the wheel while still identified with the warrior caste because he is substituting for Delenn and their entire plan was banked on not giving the traditional victory-by-ordeal to the warriors, but I can only picture him as part of the religious caste as a sort of warrior monk.)

YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DYING.o

There is a whole lot of Babylon 5 that I remember in the narrative sweep of assorted arcs with individual details picked out and then there is the stuff that instantly and permanently downloaded into my brain and which I do not even need the drop of a hat to talk about; into this category falls the absolute them-ness of Londo and G'Kar.

(I especially love how this show humanizes the otherwise dry f/x-based dynamics of CGI space battles, where you also see the distinct interpersonal interactions on the other ships that they're fighting enough to get a feel for them as people whose deaths would be tragic, even if we're obviously primed to sympathize with Our Characters first and foremost.)

Yes! The show actually seems very careful overall not to have faceless antagonists—the Shadow don't count, it's their whole schtick—and I really appreciate it. It doesn't go in for cannon fodder. It means it can give us numbers of the dead like the millions on Narn or the thousands at Proxima 3 and they feel like real losses, not just because the characters absorb their shocks as such, but because the show has never been cavalier about its death toll.

Londo has never hated G'Kar, and if things hadn't gone so completely sideways in season two, it's definitely possible that they could've developed a quiet truce building into a sort of uneasy friendship based on mutual respect then. Caring, if it came, would've come later.

Yes. And that's the sort of open irony of the path not taken—what kind of relationship would they have, if it had been able to develop more normally and diplomatically? I suspect still pretty weird about one another, given the entire thing in the first season where they stole one another's religious artifacts like kids one-upping each other at school, but they got catapulted into intimacy at eleven and it's functionally impossible to imagine them any other way.

And that's what he came here to do in this episode, too, but now he looks at G'Kar and he sees a person that he not only respects but also likes and wants to like him - the way Londo typically is with people he likes - and neither of them know what to do with that, least of all G'Kar, who is left staring at Londo making the least apologetic apology of all time, and practicing his newly invented Narn-Zen grounding skills.

I love all of this analysis—your description of where the conversation leaves them is chef's kiss—and I think it's really true. And in the same way that he can't quite apologize, Londo can't come straight out with an expression of liking, not just because it would end up on the rejections pile with his thanks and respect, but because it kicks right into that defense mechanism of needing to pretend that he doesn't need to be liked. With Vir, at the start of their conspiracy: "And still, the hideous truth is, you are the closest thing I have to a friend. I am as shocked and dismayed by this as you are, but there it is." Londo, for the love of marshmallows! Stop doing this ridiculous macarena about the horrors of human attachment! You like having friends! You miss it! It's a self-inflicted problem, but it's a real problem! And he can't front with G'Kar, he just can't, the mortifying ordeal of being known has well and duly sailed. So he talks around in circles and accepts being shown the door with once again that hitherto uncharacteristic grace and then sits for hours at the bar with a second drink just in case. EVERYONE KNOWS YOU CARE, LONDO. DOGS KNOW IT.

I'm sure that Londo planned to offer him something, but I suspect that G'Kar counter-offered and made him say yes (and probably in a similar way to what we saw in both their dungeon interactions and here - it's *not* a negotiation, G'Kar is simply telling him under what conditions he'll do it, and Londo can either say yes or no).

Yes! It's an amazing dynamic. And something else that has changed between them: it would have infuriated Londo in the first season not to be able to set terms of any kind with G'Kar, but he really can't and he just seems to have accepted it.

(I continue to be able to talk about them endlessly.)

(I'm so happy you do.)

[sholio]

The show actually seems very careful overall not to have faceless antagonists—the Shadow don't count, it's their whole schtick—and I really appreciate it. It doesn't go in for cannon fodder. It means it can give us numbers of the dead like the millions on Narn or the thousands at Proxima 3 and they feel like real losses, not just because the characters absorb their shocks as such, but because the show has never been cavalier about its death toll.

Yes! The show is really on the ball about making the cost, the human toll, real and painful. And then it's also more impactful when they do save someone, as well.

And that's the sort of open irony of the path not taken—what kind of relationship would they have, if it had been able to develop more normally and diplomatically? I suspect still pretty weird about one another, given the entire thing in the first season where they stole one another's religious artifacts like kids one-upping each other at school, but they got catapulted into intimacy at eleven and it's functionally impossible to imagine them any other way.

This, yes! They got intimacy before they got affection or even liking, and it makes such a fascinating dynamic as they do transition towards liking/caring, because they already know each other in ways that most people never do. A more conventional friendship would have been something entirely different, even though they likely would have still been very weird about each other (as you point out, they always have been). But it would have been very differently shaped.

it kicks right into that defense mechanism of needing to pretend that he doesn't need to be liked. With Vir, at the start of their conspiracy: "And still, the hideous truth is, you are the closest thing I have to a friend. I am as shocked and dismayed by this as you are, but there it is." Londo, for the love of marshmallows! Stop doing this ridiculous macarena about the horrors of human attachment! You like having friends! You miss it! It's a self-inflicted problem, but it's a real problem! And he can't front with G'Kar, he just can't, the mortifying ordeal of being known has well and duly sailed. So he talks around in circles and accepts being shown the door with once again that hitherto uncharacteristic grace and then sits for hours at the bar with a second drink just in case. EVERYONE KNOWS YOU CARE, LONDO. DOGS KNOW IT.

YES. He's so desperate for connection and equally desperate to handwave off, or laugh off, any hint of vulnerability or human need. He'll deflect, he'll make a joke out of it, he'll insist it doesn't matter, even when it's visible from space that it *does* matter and it hurts and he's lonely and he wants people to connect with. Thinking back to his "I don't need anyone" after Delenn rebuffs him and he sends Vir away - you do, actually, Londo! And you want it desperately, not just in general, although that too, but from specific people that you like and want to like you back. And his fronting and denial of wanting company does not, in his case, translate to being the one to leave first before he can get hurt; he's sort of the opposite of that, he's loyal to the last and he'll be the one to reach out first and he's usually the one being left, not the one leaving; but then he'll do whatever he can to deny that it ever mattered to him at all. LONDO PLS.

it would have infuriated Londo in the first season not to be able to set terms of any kind with G'Kar, but he really can't and he just seems to have accepted it.

Yes, that's so accurate.

[hamsterwoman]

but wow are you ever testing the limits of my newfound pacifism.")

This made me laugh, because yeah. XD

"but I know who my friends are, and that I have not done as well by them as I should. I hope to change that. I hope to do better."

Ouch, but also, an excellent next step.

Edit: Also, as is often the case on this show, I love how the title refers to both the A and B plots - not just Sheridan's war against Earth, but also, in total contrast, both Londo and G'Kar doing the hard thing and taking cautious first steps towards peace between their worlds, as well as between them personally.

Yes! (I tend to really enjoy the show's titles in general. "Falling towards Apotheosis" is probably my favorite there, but there are so many epic/mythic ones I enjoy.)

[sholio]

This made me laugh, because yeah. XD

G'Kar's "what is even wrong with you" face is on full display here and it is excellent. XD

(I tend to really enjoy the show's titles in general. "Falling towards Apotheosis" is probably my favorite there, but there are so many epic/mythic ones I enjoy.)

Yes! Actually this is something I was thinking about early on (before I got swept away in the plot), which is that I deeply enjoy the show's titles and I miss the era when scifi came out with the grand resonant titles, starting on TV with Olde Star Trek, but also a lot of classic scifi books that just have these sweeping, memorable titles with Biblical or Shakespearean allusions, poetic wordplay, etc. You don't get that much anymore, and this is such a fun throwback to it, all the more so because the show often does a really nice job of making the title apply in multiple ways to the episode.

[hamsterwoman]

but also a lot of classic scifi books that just have these sweeping, memorable titles with Biblical or Shakespearean allusions, poetic wordplay, etc. You don't get that much anymore,

Oh, hmm, that is true! There definitely seems a lot less of that going around... I do have a preference for those kinds of titles, but hard to say at this point whether that's part of why I like B5's or if it's B5 that conditioned me to like them in part.

[sovay]

"Falling towards Apotheosis" is probably my favorite there

+1. It could be precious, but instead it's just a gorgeous image, and so apt to that point in the show.

[hamsterwoman]

Yeah, it can't be easy to pull off a title like that, and somehow this show manages.

Decades later, some of the episode titles, including that one, still give me chills, because they are so evocative, and that's really impressive.

[sheron]

*enjoys reviews*

[sholio]

*enjoys writing them*

[lyr]

Yeah, this episode is why I love Neroon so hard. I love everything about the end of his arc except that it didn't get as much time as it should have.

His conversion doesn't bother me, because the one quality that is most obvious to me about the religious caste is that every single plan they make hinges on self-sacrifice. They just can't get behind a plan that doesn't involve martyring themselves. (Seriously, if you review all their plans, that's 100% of them.) So yes, Neroon's heart is obviously religious. In the end he's not going to stand by and let Delenn die to end the civil war; he's going to throw himself into the fire instead.

I just wish it turned out much later that the Vorlon tech of the Starfire Wheel didn't actually kill people, but de-materialize and preserve them for later, much as they kept Jack the Ripper around to be their inquisitor. I like to think about Neroon, far in the future, reconstituted and really surprised.

[sholio]

Oh, I LOVE the idea of the Starfire Wheel actually preserving people! I would totally read it as a fic (and wish it was canon).

That's a really good point about self-sacrifice, too.

He's a character that I wasn't paying much attention to early on, so now I want to go back and watch his earlier episodes to pick up the whole thing. I am enjoying this show so much! <3