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B5 3x10-3x14
Uh, we watched a bunch of them today. Also, AAAAAAA. Writing up notes quickly while it's still fresh in my head.
3x10 "Severed Dreams"
I expected B5 was on the verge of declaring independence, but I didn't think it would happen in the very next episode! That was intense. As Orion pointed out, space battles are usually much more bloodless than this, but that was so visceral and brutal, from not really knowing what had happened to Ivanova after her ship blew up, to the fighting in the halls when they breached B5. For just having met Capt. Hiroshi in this episode, the whole sequence where she drove her dying ship into one of the Earth cruisers in a suicide charge was really affecting, as was the Major in command of the damaged ship that kicked it all off trying to carry on, and not let on about what they'd lost, after the General in charge of the rebellion was killed. And just the poignancy of knowing that they're all having to attack people who used to be their comrades in arms, some of whom they know personally. Basically that was one heck of an episode.
3x11 "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
Aftermath of B5's independence declaration, also very fun and tense. I enjoyed that they went ahead with the fallout, the remnants of Nightwatch terrorizing people, Delenn getting kidnapped and then stabbed(!!), and Londo actually using his ruthless side for semi good ends for a change, with the poison and Lord Refa; really it could not happen to a nicer guy. I liked the ending with the rebirth ceremony happening in the medbay so Delenn could still officiate. I also thought it was interesting that all the people who refused to attend (Londo, G'Kar, and Marcus) actually *didn't* attend; I was expecting at least one of them to have a change of heart, especially Marcus, but it was refreshingly realistic that no one had a last-minute moment about it.
(And also, I had noticed Marcus's self-sacrificing to the point of self-destructive tendencies in previous episodes - yelling at the alien parasite people to take him instead of Franklin, telling Ivanova that he expected to be the one sent on the suicide mission to Jupiter instead of Sheridan - so now we know basically what's up with that.)
I like that they have new uniforms to go with their new independent status, and also that Delenn knew the core four well enough to guess that they'd all go through with the ceremony even if no one else did.
3x12 "Sic Transit Vir"
Oh, I liked this one a lot. Vir!! Also, holy shit, this show does not pull any punches. The revelation that Vir has been secretly smuggling thousands of Narn refugees to safe locations hit hard, and Vir getting thoroughly stomped for it, losing his position and Londo's respect and not even getting any support from the humans, hit even harder. And the entire scene where his fiancee starts talking about, not just exterminating the Narn, but the fact that her family is *personally responsible* for killing hundreds or thousands of them in targeted death camps; the reveal that the Narn assassin is actually after her, not Vir, was a nice twist, and the scene where she's giving Vir the knife to kill the guy!! I kept saying Vir is too nice to play Centauri court games, but holy shit. Out of everything dark in the last run of episodes we watched, and there was a lot of it, the part that sticks with me is the scene where she's cheerfully talking about personally murdering helpless Narn families as if it's a perfectly ordinary thing to do, eyes wide and innocent, while Vir stares at her in horror. The face of an angel, the soul of a death camp commandante.
I wish we'd known exactly how that scene played out after it cut away on her handing him the knife. I don't think Vir really would've gone ahead and killed the Narn? But it's weirdly unclear how that came out; you can't even tell by the way he interacts with his fiancee later, and there's no mention of anything else having been done with the guy, like calling security or anything; I don't want to think that they went ahead and killed him, but it's hard to draw any other conclusions ...
Also, Londo is really at his most Narn-racist and horrible in this one. "2000 dead Narn, it's a start." LONDO NO.
But for total mood whiplash, so much of the episode was funny! Londo using his duelist sword on invasive insects, and Vir trying to explain Centauri sex to Ivanova, with the all too vivid hand gestures, and explaining about putting in "one" vs all six. VIR!
3x13 "A Late Delivery from Avalon"
I admit that I'm not the target audience for this because Arthuriana is not really my thing, although I liked the concept (I figured the Arthur guy was fleeing some personal tragedy, didn't guess he was the one who fired the first shot in the Earth-Minbari war) and enjoyed it generally. G'Kar jumping over the balcony with his coat flaring was my first "oh no, he's hot" moment for him, but probably not the last, I suspect.
3x14 "Ship of Tears"
BESTER HAS AN EMOTION, AND HE DOES NOT LIKE IT. This was another really strong one, and I was pleasantly surprised that the situation with a) Bester and his girlfriend, and b) the smuggled telepaths wasn't resolved in the episode itself, so there's going to be more of that to come.
Anyway this episode was terrific fun, between Bester and the B5 crew teaming up (Bester on the White Star!), Bester having actual emotions (I had guessed the techno-telepath lady was his sister; girlfriend wasn't quite as RTMI, but I still enjoyed it), and then G'Kar being fully brought in on R7 - love their new headquarters! - and Garibaldi with his hand-done Narn translations figuring out what's up with the telepaths and the Shadows. I hadn't previously realized the extermination of Narn telepaths was committed by the Shadows and not by the Centauri during their first occupation. I am just loving this utterly.
3x10 "Severed Dreams"
I expected B5 was on the verge of declaring independence, but I didn't think it would happen in the very next episode! That was intense. As Orion pointed out, space battles are usually much more bloodless than this, but that was so visceral and brutal, from not really knowing what had happened to Ivanova after her ship blew up, to the fighting in the halls when they breached B5. For just having met Capt. Hiroshi in this episode, the whole sequence where she drove her dying ship into one of the Earth cruisers in a suicide charge was really affecting, as was the Major in command of the damaged ship that kicked it all off trying to carry on, and not let on about what they'd lost, after the General in charge of the rebellion was killed. And just the poignancy of knowing that they're all having to attack people who used to be their comrades in arms, some of whom they know personally. Basically that was one heck of an episode.
3x11 "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
Aftermath of B5's independence declaration, also very fun and tense. I enjoyed that they went ahead with the fallout, the remnants of Nightwatch terrorizing people, Delenn getting kidnapped and then stabbed(!!), and Londo actually using his ruthless side for semi good ends for a change, with the poison and Lord Refa; really it could not happen to a nicer guy. I liked the ending with the rebirth ceremony happening in the medbay so Delenn could still officiate. I also thought it was interesting that all the people who refused to attend (Londo, G'Kar, and Marcus) actually *didn't* attend; I was expecting at least one of them to have a change of heart, especially Marcus, but it was refreshingly realistic that no one had a last-minute moment about it.
(And also, I had noticed Marcus's self-sacrificing to the point of self-destructive tendencies in previous episodes - yelling at the alien parasite people to take him instead of Franklin, telling Ivanova that he expected to be the one sent on the suicide mission to Jupiter instead of Sheridan - so now we know basically what's up with that.)
I like that they have new uniforms to go with their new independent status, and also that Delenn knew the core four well enough to guess that they'd all go through with the ceremony even if no one else did.
3x12 "Sic Transit Vir"
Oh, I liked this one a lot. Vir!! Also, holy shit, this show does not pull any punches. The revelation that Vir has been secretly smuggling thousands of Narn refugees to safe locations hit hard, and Vir getting thoroughly stomped for it, losing his position and Londo's respect and not even getting any support from the humans, hit even harder. And the entire scene where his fiancee starts talking about, not just exterminating the Narn, but the fact that her family is *personally responsible* for killing hundreds or thousands of them in targeted death camps; the reveal that the Narn assassin is actually after her, not Vir, was a nice twist, and the scene where she's giving Vir the knife to kill the guy!! I kept saying Vir is too nice to play Centauri court games, but holy shit. Out of everything dark in the last run of episodes we watched, and there was a lot of it, the part that sticks with me is the scene where she's cheerfully talking about personally murdering helpless Narn families as if it's a perfectly ordinary thing to do, eyes wide and innocent, while Vir stares at her in horror. The face of an angel, the soul of a death camp commandante.
I wish we'd known exactly how that scene played out after it cut away on her handing him the knife. I don't think Vir really would've gone ahead and killed the Narn? But it's weirdly unclear how that came out; you can't even tell by the way he interacts with his fiancee later, and there's no mention of anything else having been done with the guy, like calling security or anything; I don't want to think that they went ahead and killed him, but it's hard to draw any other conclusions ...
Also, Londo is really at his most Narn-racist and horrible in this one. "2000 dead Narn, it's a start." LONDO NO.
But for total mood whiplash, so much of the episode was funny! Londo using his duelist sword on invasive insects, and Vir trying to explain Centauri sex to Ivanova, with the all too vivid hand gestures, and explaining about putting in "one" vs all six. VIR!
3x13 "A Late Delivery from Avalon"
I admit that I'm not the target audience for this because Arthuriana is not really my thing, although I liked the concept (I figured the Arthur guy was fleeing some personal tragedy, didn't guess he was the one who fired the first shot in the Earth-Minbari war) and enjoyed it generally. G'Kar jumping over the balcony with his coat flaring was my first "oh no, he's hot" moment for him, but probably not the last, I suspect.
3x14 "Ship of Tears"
BESTER HAS AN EMOTION, AND HE DOES NOT LIKE IT. This was another really strong one, and I was pleasantly surprised that the situation with a) Bester and his girlfriend, and b) the smuggled telepaths wasn't resolved in the episode itself, so there's going to be more of that to come.
Anyway this episode was terrific fun, between Bester and the B5 crew teaming up (Bester on the White Star!), Bester having actual emotions (I had guessed the techno-telepath lady was his sister; girlfriend wasn't quite as RTMI, but I still enjoyed it), and then G'Kar being fully brought in on R7 - love their new headquarters! - and Garibaldi with his hand-done Narn translations figuring out what's up with the telepaths and the Shadows. I hadn't previously realized the extermination of Narn telepaths was committed by the Shadows and not by the Centauri during their first occupation. I am just loving this utterly.
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"Is there anyone along our border with whom we are not currently at war?" has been playing in my head.
I wish we'd known exactly how that scene played out after it cut away on her handing him the knife. I don't think Vir really would've gone ahead and killed the Narn? But it's weirdly unclear how that came out; you can't even tell by the way he interacts with his fiancee later, and there's no mention of anything else having been done with the guy ...
There was a cut line about the Narn recovering in Medlab which JMS at the time had to explain had gotten lost in the editing room because everybody was legitimately concerned!
Londo's congratulations on the supposed body count always struck me as partly political theater, but thus fall into the category of cool motive, still a thing you said with your actual mouth. Moral event horizon's still thataway. Behind you.
BESTER HAS AN EMOTION, AND HE DOES NOT LIKE IT.
I predictably love this episode.
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OH THANK GOD, I really didn't think Vir would have killed him, but yes, I was worried! It really should have been left in the episode, or at least _some_ kind of handwave to suggest how that turned out!
(Speaking of handwaves, Vir's laced-together finger-waggle gesture, and Ivanova starting to echo it after he leaves and then realizing what it means and hastily separating her hands, will be making me laugh for days. Edit: also, from the way Vir uses it in the episode, I assume the full-hand finger-waggle gesture is the Centauri equivalent of the various human "finger thrust into circle", "upraised thumb/fingers", etc gestures indicating sex in a mildly vulgar way, which makes it even funnier.)
Londo's congratulations on the supposed body count always struck me as partly political theater, but thus fall into the category of cool motive, still a thing you said with your actual mouth. Moral event horizon's still thataway. Behind you.
Cosigned 1000%. Maybe you could try not catapulting yourself over the moral event horizon with a trebuchet sometime, Londo! I see nothing at all of substance was learned from his close call with karmic suicide-via-drugged-Narn.
I predictably love this episode.
As did I, and I probably would have had a lot more to say about it if I hadn't just watched five episodes in a row. I had resigned myself in the previous Bester episode to Bester always being a competent, hot psychopath with no redeeming emotions, and then he goes and proves me wrong in his very next appearance.
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I thought you should know! I believe that by the time anyone realized the line had gone missing, the episode had already aired and the fanbase was in need of reassurance stat.
The thing where if the marriage is annulled, it will because of Vir's political disgrace rather than his bride's actual factual war crimes, also really drives home how Centauri society is generally doing at the moment. AUGH.
(Speaking of handwaves, Vir's laced-together finger-waggle gesture, and Ivanova starting to echo it after he leaves and then realizing what it means and hastily separating her hands, will be making me laugh for days.)
Yes! All of her facial expressions during this unplanned lesson in reproductive xenobiology. Also the enduring impact of Babylon 5 on my family of origin can be gauged by the fact that earlier tonight my father used the line about killing something before it develops language skills in reference to a container of sour cream, which deserved it.
Edit: also, from the way Vir uses it in the episode, I assume the full-hand finger-waggle gesture is the Centauri equivalent of the various human "finger thrust into circle", "upraised thumb/fingers", etc gestures indicating sex in a mildly vulgar way, which makes it even funnier.)
I think you're right.
Maybe you could try not catapulting yourself over the moral event horizon with a trebuchet sometime, Londo!
This description made me laugh out loud and is terribly accurate.
As did I, and I probably would have had a lot more to say about it if I hadn't just watched five episodes in a row.
I am glad you are enjoying the show enough to mainline it!
I had resigned myself in the previous Bester episode to Bester always being a competent, hot psychopath with no redeeming emotions, and then he goes and proves me wrong in his very next appearance.
I mean, it seems to have startled him, too.
(And it's not just the revelation that he's capable of love, it's the first episode where we see him not cheerfully, sardonically in control of a situation, that cup of coffee that he's thousand-yard-staring over instead of drinking, that flare of anger when Ivanova challenges how much he could have loved Carolyn if he didn't get her out of the reeducation center and he has to admit that he couldn't do it and couldn't get her to join the Corps, either: he doesn't even try to bargain with Babylon 5 for her sake, he promises them anything. It's extraordinary and Walter Koenig carries all of it through.)
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Yes! I feel like Vir getting slapped down for being the only Centauri we've seen so far to actually do the morally correct thing in the face of genocide is completely on brand for the Centauri (and also something I liked seeing because doing the right thing is still right even if the whole world thinks you're wrong) but also, ow.
I am glad you are enjoying the show enough to mainline it!
The really amazing thing is that my husband is! He's not really a marathon viewer, and he's also generally more a fan of morally ambiguous shades-of-grey cyberpunk-style scifi. His verdict when he started watching it with me in early season two was that it was too morally simplistic, but that was a season and a half of war crimes and moral quandaries ago, and now he's as hooked as I am.
it's the first episode where we see him not cheerfully, sardonically in control of a situation, that cup of coffee that he's thousand-yard-staring over instead of drinking, that flare of anger when Ivanova challenges how much he could have loved Carolyn if he didn't get her out of the reeducation center and he has to admit that he couldn't do it and couldn't get her to join the Corps, either: he doesn't even try to bargain with Babylon 5 for her sake, he promises them anything.
Yes, so much. The acting is so good throughout all of that, the way he switches in an instant from his usual sardonic amusement to total blankness in the middle of translating the bracelet code when he realizes it's Carolyn, the anger when he's describing how he was powerless to help her (and I think it's interesting how it's framed that way, he makes a point of pointing out that he has less power in the Psi-Corps hierarchy than the B5 command staff think he does), the way that he's clearly as surprised as anyone else that he still has normal human emotions under the cheerfully psychopathic facade. And yes, offering them his help no strings attached, and he's already said that the only promises he really means are the ones involving Carolyn. "Your war is now my war."
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Yes! And again that counter-grimdark reminder that two thousand Narns are a mote in the eye of a planetary genocide, but they are still two thousand people who are alive who wouldn't otherwise be.
His verdict when he started watching it with me in early season two was that it was too morally simplistic, but that was a season and a half of war crimes and moral quandaries ago, and now he's as hooked as I am.
I am delighted to hear this! And, yeah, the war crimes escalated quickly.
(It's not cyberpunk-style, but in terms of morally grey sci-fi, did he/you ever see Homecoming (2018)? I only ever saw the original first self-contained season, but highly recommended.)
the anger when he's describing how he was powerless to help her (and I think it's interesting how it's framed that way, he makes a point of pointing out that he has less power in the Psi-Corps hierarchy than the B5 command staff think he does)
I hadn't thought particularly of it until now, but I don't think Babylon 5 has ever dealt with one of Bester's superiors. To all extents and purposes, he is the Psi Corps when he shows up with his gloves and his badge and his neat little paramilitary uniform, enforcing its laws and furthering its agenda, on top of which he characteristically rocks up to the station like he owns it no matter what. Decisions may be made above his head, but he's not going to let on to the mundanes about them—which is another reason this episode is Bester-unusual just by its premise, his coming to B5 for help about the Shadow influence within the Corps which he does not yet know has gotten so personal. So he looks like a law unto himself and he acts like one most of the time we see him and it makes sense especially for Ivanova, for whom the Corps has always had an additional quality of nightmare, to assume that he's essentially a free agent within it and if he didn't do the obvious, humane thing for the person he's claiming to love, it's only because he didn't feel like it: and it's so clear otherwise to the audience. Insofar as Bester has a tragedy in addition to his charisma and the fact that he clearly stopped bothering with moral event horizon rolls years ago, it's that it will never occur to him that the system to which he gives all of his loyalty doesn't deserve it. Most people don't have to meet the love of their life in a reeducation camp on account of already being in a eugenically arranged marriage, but here we are.
(Here I just injured myself slightly by discovering that the Psi Cop who met Bester at the end of "Dust to Dust" was played by Judy Levitt, in real life married to Walter Koenig. Apparently fan speculation is widespread that this character should be taken as Bester's professionally matched wife. I had no idea.)
and he's already said that the only promises he really means are the ones involving Carolyn.
I love his delivery of that line. The faint smile, as if it's funny that he means it, but he does.
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Yes! It's not otherwise that similar, but it makes me think a little of how Londo is the face of the Centauri occupation to G'Kar. Bester is the Psi Corps to the B5 personnel, especially Ivanova, and so he was the one who had to point out that he would have been as powerless to change Carolyn's fate as anyone else in his position. (Except of course, some people would try anyway. He's also trapped by having outsourced his morality to the same system that put the woman he loves in a reeducation camp and not thinking twice about whether that's right or wrong.)
(It's not cyberpunk-style, but in terms of morally grey sci-fi, did he/you ever see Homecoming (2018)? I only ever saw the original first self-contained season, but highly recommended.)
I've never even heard of it! It's possible he's already seen it - he watches a lot of stuff I don't - but I'll look into it; thank you for the recommendation!
(Here I just injured myself slightly by discovering that the Psi Cop who met Bester at the end of "Dust to Dust" was played by Judy Levitt, in real life married to Walter Koenig. Apparently fan speculation is widespread that this character should be taken as Bester's professionally matched wife. I had no idea.)
Oh wow, that is fascinating! Good for them getting to do that scene together. It does add a delightful extra layer to know that.
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Ayup. How carelessly he reads off the data from the bracelet until he realizes it's describing someone he cares about: a carve-out, not a paradigm shift. Which actually dovetails really well with the seasonal theme of B5 breaking away from the Earth Alliance and Vir striking out on his own moral compass from the rest of Centauri Prime and Zack needing a strong-arm nudge to get himself back in moral alignment and G'Kar halting his part in the cycle of generational trauma and Londo still in the service of Centauri Prime even as the genocidal revanchism rolls on (I love the complexity of him half-poisoning Lord Refa not to halt the Centauri war machine, but to keep it from spreading itself too thin: to break with the Shadows not because of the evil they encourage, but because of the likelihood of becoming one of their casualties). Bester allied with B5 is working against the faction of the Psi Corps that has allied with the Shadows, but he hasn't left the Corps itself behind. If he had been able to do that, he'd be a blip with Carolyn and neither of them would be on Babylon 5.
Just generally to the season, I forgot to mention that I like how much the Earth Alliance splitting into civil war does not recapitulate any of the obvious historical or fictional models—the American Civil War, the Rebel Alliance—which I recognize sounds like a low bar, but the factionalism and the messiness and the logistical inability of the protagonists to go it alone felt and feels much more realistic to me.
I've never even heard of it! It's possible he's already seen it - he watches a lot of stuff I don't - but I'll look into it; thank you for the recommendation!
You're welcome! It came from Amazon, but in 2020
Oh wow, that is fascinating! Good for them getting to do that scene together.
I was trying to find out how many other high-ranking Corps members we actually see over the duration of the show and fell across that trivia and honestly it makes me happy.
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Help this is making me want to watch bits of this XDDD
(Also reminds me of how mages are handled in Dragon Age games; I feel like maybe it borrowed from this)
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I enjoy your notes a lot and am now also thinking that it might be time for a rewatch in the not too distant future :)
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Londo and Vir really start as the disaster diplomats and then almost immediately take off on different ethical trajectories without it feeling schematic at all and I love it as well as both of them.
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What *is* up with that for those of us reading along?
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He's from an Earth colony that was completely destroyed by Shadows, and he's the only survivor, so he blames himself for still being alive when everyone he loves is dead, basically.
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Yes! One of the things I love about this show is how well it manages this sort of chiaroscuro with tone, with tiny funny things happening in the middle of grand tragic things, and they are actually really funny. Vir's conversation with Ivanova is one of the things that stuck with me, and Londo hunting the insects with his sword is possibly one of my favorite visuals from the whole show -- it's so ridiculous and so HIM!
(There is a great vid from the latest round of Festivids, I think, that really highlights that for me, that I definitely need to remember to link you to once you're done with the show, because your commentary makes me think of it, but I think it's got spoilers from all 5 seasons.)
I admit that I'm not the target audience for this because Arthuriana is not really my thing,
I remember being pretty bored by the Arthuriana episode the first time I watched, because it's also not my thing, but then appreciating it quite a bit more on rewatch, although it's hard for me to say how much of that is because I studies some Arthuriana in between and how much is because I knew the reveal. I do enjoy G'Kar in this episode a lot.
Also, BESTER!
And "Do not thump the book of G'Quan. It is disrespectful"
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Yes!! xD It's a difficult line to walk, and I think I haven't seen a lot outside of anime that pushes both the comedy and the tragedy/darkness so hard and so well at the same time. I can't get over how the show can have you laughing one minute and then staring at the screen the next because they really did just go there!! with the genocide!!! And the contrast makes those moments hit even harder. (A piece of writing advice I read as a teenager and have never forgotten is to contrast comedy and tragedy to make both more effective than either alone, and this show is certainly a good example of that.)
(There is a great vid from the latest round of Festivids, I think, that really highlights that for me, that I definitely need to remember to link you to once you're done with the show, because your commentary makes me think of it, but I think it's got spoilers from all 5 seasons.)
I have not only seen it, but it's what kicked off my current (re)watch! I don't know what made me decide to watch it after not having thought about the show in years, and I think I'm lucky it's not more spoiler-filled than it is, but it suddenly made all the feelings about the show and especially about Londo that I had nearly forgotten about drop right back into my head, and now here I am three seasons into the show ...
I actually cautiously rewatched it just a few days ago, and found that it really doesn't give away anything major I don't already know, at least nothing that I didn't either infer from context, or don't really get without context. (Like, the scene of Sinclair revealing himself to the Minbari while flanked by Vorlons is in there, but I didn't have a clue what was happening in that scene or who that was, so it's fine.) And it's nice to have a vid I can watch now and then without worrying about spoiling anything big!
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Ha! Well then, I'm very glad you have already seen it and enjoyed it, and also that it was not too spoilery. :D
I haven't seen a lot outside of anime that pushes both the comedy and the tragedy/darkness so hard and so well at the same time.
I was thinking that since I don't watch anime I could not think of any examples, and then you mentioned genocide and I realized that anime-adjacent Avatar: The Last Airbender also does this thing quite well (for a younger target audience, of course).
But yeah, I definitely do think the focus on both comedy and tragedy/epic makes both more effective for B5.