sholio | Babylon 5 3x01-03

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tv:babylon 5

Babylon 5 3x01-03

I am becoming emotionally compromised. Send help.

Still unsure if I've seen season 3 or not. I remember the first two seasons' "last best hope for peace" voiceover very well; I do NOT remember the season 3 opening variant at all! But I maybe sort of remember Sheridan's ship? I think at this point I might've started seeing scattered episodes here and there rather than watching straight through. I like that they rotate through different narrators for the theme song voiceover.

3x01

- Sheridan becomes possibly the first person ever to destroy a Shadow ship - by doing something completely insane. I love him. ♥ Also, Delenn's obvious hearteyes when she realizes what he's about to do. (Idiosexual Delenn: confirmed.)

- We now know the Shadows specifically targeted the Narn, because the Narn know about them! It wasn't just general destabilization; the absolute destruction of the Narn homeworld was the goal, to prevent the Narns from ever telling anyone about the Shadows, or being believed if they did. I love the continuity that it took us two seasons to learn that!

- Londo trying to untangle himself from the Shadows: too little, too late. Of course Morden is very happy to be perfectly fine with going away as requested ("for as long as you want me to"); just one little favor first! And they divide up the galaxy European-powers style: the Shadows get all of that, the Centauri get all of this. ("What guarantee do we have that your forces will not decide to turn around and attack us?" "None. Ambassador, we all know what promises and treaties mean.") Anyway, Londo's downward spiral of poor life choices and selling other people out for his own gain continues even when he's actually trying to make better choices. It's a gift.

- I am deeply unsold on Marcus so far; I'm absolutely having that 'interloper in the cast taking screentime from my blorbos!!' resentful new character feeling where it feels like they're trying too hard to make me like him. (This probably means he'll be one of my favorites by season four.)

- The Shadows are also whispering in the ear of the Earth government; OH NO.

3x02

This may be my single favorite episode in the series so far. It was awesome. Bombs! Peril! Injury! Hilarity!

- Lennier and Londo and Delenn! Everything about that subplot. Lennier saving them. Delenn's desperate worry. Londo's worry! He's so lonely. The whole sequence where he's talking to comatose Lennier. "No one has ever saved my life before." And: "I'm going to take a break now and wait for you to talk." HONEY. (With the absolute heart-stab at the end that Lennier actually regrets saving his life, but couldn't not do it, because all life is precious, even the life of someone who is rapidly turning into a genocidal dictator in front of the people who used to be his friends.)

And segue from that to ...

- G'Kar: worst person EVER to be trapped with in a deathtrap elevator filling up with smoke. I love the subversion here, that this could very easily be a bonding experience, but Londo and G'Kar literally hate each other too much to work together to escape; the only good thing about this entire experience is watching each other die. (Well, Londo would be willing to at least try, but G'Kar definitely isn't. G'Kar's weak "NOOOOOO" when they're rescued will never stop being tragilarious.)

And Londo and G'Kar using their last breath as they asphyxiate to insult each other.

"Bastard!"
"Monster!"
"Fanatic!"
"Murderer!"
(Londo, to himself) "Go be ambassador to Babylon 5, they said. It will be an easy assignment."

- I also loved the Garibaldi and Sheridan subplot, Garibaldi's worry when all he can do is listen to Sheridan maybe getting killed over the radio, Sheridan handling the bomber and Garibaldi handling the bomb and both of them hitting my competence kink like whoa. (Sheridan actually did shove his communicator up his ass to hide it, didn't he? That's pretty clearly what Garibaldi was suggesting...) Aaaaahhhhh they're great, I love them.

Anyway, that was excellent. A+++, would watch again.

3x03

- Garibaldi is definitely the Mom Friend, between cooking dinner for Franklin - I love that this is a recurring thing; he loves cooking for people - and trying to talk to him about overusing stimulants (I'm sure that subplot won't come up again or anything) and visiting G'Kar to try to talk him out of going back to Narn and being killed. I love the contrast between his tough guy persona and the fact that he is invariably the one who checks in on the people around him to make sure they're doing okay.

- In general, I love the command crew dynamic this season. Ivanova's little affectionate touches when she meets Garibaldi and Franklin for drinks! They just all obviously like each other so much, it's great.

- Meanwhile in self-inflicted misery land, Londo seeking interpersonal connection throughout this run of episodes, and getting continually rebuffed due to his own actions, is heartbreaking. Inevitable and completely self-inflicted, but also heartbreaking. T__T Openly reaching out to Delenn, only to have her more or less tell him that they never were friends. I love/hate/PAIN how obvious it is that he's sending Vir away to get Vir away from him - he can see the corrupting influence he's having on Vir, and also, at this point Vir is maybe the only person who still likes him, and he's got to get Vir away from him (and on to something better and safer) before Vir either turns against him too, or becomes too much like him.

- His almost vicious rebuttal when Delenn tells him that he needs Vir: "Need? I need no one!" And to Vir: "I have always been alone." LONDO. And yet it's just so self-inflicted! This is happening to him because of the choices he's made, and the worst part is that on some level, he knows it.

- In other storylines, it's Sheridan's Narn friend from the gladiator ship!! I was so thrilled by having him show up again, I grinned all through their meeting at the bar, and they are both so delighted to see each other again; that was lovely.

Sheridan: I don't know what my superiors will say if I start showing up with a Narn bodyguard.
Narn swordsman guy: They will say 'here is a man who will live to be a hundred and fifty.'

OH NO THEY'RE CUTE, SEND HELP. I was terribly worried that guy wasn't going to survive the episode and so glad he did! Also, the blade that must not be resheathed if it has not drawn blood, and blooding it on his own hand - damn, dude.

- Mixed feelings on the general Narn plot in this episode which maybe I'll shelve for now. (I get the feeling we're supposed to unambiguously hate the collaborator dude, but he's got a point about G'Kar, actually. On the other hand, the scene where Londo is verbally grinding his face in the dirt and he's simply taking it is just - ow. Londo is right that the Narns are going to keep fighting for freedom as long as they still have their pride, and the fact that he deals with this by intentionally trying to break their pride is realpolitik at its worst and also Londo at his worst.)

- I enjoyed Sheridan's extremely clever handling of the probe situation, especially using a drone to test his theory that it was going to destroy anything that gave it correct answers to its questions. That was wonderful.

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You are giving me such wonderful flashbacks.

I'm having a great time!

Your reaction posts make me so emotional, omg!

How are they all so - them!

I loved the elevator episode SO much.

It was SUCH fun!

I love the contrast between his tough guy persona and the fact that he is invariably the one who checks in on the people around him to make sure they're doing okay.

This combination of unlikely traits is one of my very favorite things about Garibaldi! <3

Loved reading everything you said about this portion of Londo's arc ad Londo and Vir. The elevator episode is one of my favorites (and on rewatch, I especially appreciated how it's sort of a very dark echo of the earlier episode where they're bickering in front of an elevator). For a long time after we watched it, my kids would quote G'Kar's "I can hear you!" with that note of hysterical laughter. "Tragilarious" is a great word for that whole subplot.

On the other hand, the scene where Londo is verbally grinding his face in the dirt and he's simply taking it is just - ow.

I looked up my write-up of this episode's rewatch to check something else and found that I'd written, "Londo is my favorite character, and there are very few scenes where I outright hate him, but the one where he is making Na'Far report on the destroyed cities, work gangs, and executions on Narn -- yeah, I hate him during that one. Sometimes it's really hard to remember why Londo is my favorite character :( " yeah... :/

This probably means he'll be one of my favorites by season four.)

LOL! I can't remember what my initial feelings on Marcus were -- I think also slightly resentful because I had a lot of other favorites already -- but he did absolutely end up a favorite of mine, so I'll be curious to see how it goes for you.

Ooooh, you have a B5 tag!! I will have to go diving into it, perhaps a bit later when I'm not quite so spoiler-averse.

The elevator episode is one of my favorites (and on rewatch, I especially appreciated how it's sort of a very dark echo of the earlier episode where they're bickering in front of an elevator). For a long time after we watched it, my kids would quote G'Kar's "I can hear you!" with that note of hysterical laughter. "Tragilarious" is a great word for that whole subplot.

Yes! It was so great, such a wonderful blend of funny and awful. G'Kar taking every opportunity to be a complete shit to Londo while he can, because now there's nothing to lose. Except oops, they survived.

I didn't really feel the lack in the episode itself, because that's an excellent note to end on, but it's a shame it cuts off where it does - presumably Londo, G'Kar, *and* Lennier were all in the medbay at the same time, which must have been an absolutely fascinating situation (and a certain amount of awkward needle-threading for various visitors).

...and found that I'd written, "Londo is my favorite character, and there are very few scenes where I outright hate him, but the one where he is making Na'Far report on the destroyed cities, work gangs, and executions on Narn -- yeah, I hate him during that one. Sometimes it's really hard to remember why Londo is my favorite character :( " yeah... :/

Yeah. :/ LONDO. It doesn't excuse it at all, but I do feel like he's performing a role in that scene - for himself and for Vir as well as Na'Far - and this is part of why he wants Vir away from the moral blast radius of his current life choices. But it's just such a horrible thing to do on every level, and it kept escalating! I'd think he'd hit the worst of it, and then no, it got worse!

Ooooh, you have a B5 tag!!

I do! :) (the ?skip=60 should take you to where my first posts of the rewatch are). It is from ~2013, and it peters out in early s4, where my rewatch / watching with the kids stopped, but it's episode-by-episode till then. From a spot check, there are vague spoilers for later stuff, though, like noticing foreshadowing for future things, so I think you would be best to avoid it until you're in s4 or so. I know I spoiler-marked all my s5 spoilers because a friend hadn't gotten to s5 yet at that point. ETA: Ugh, I just took a look at the posts, and looks like my spoiler-cuts for s5 didn't carry over to DW because DW doesn't have the spoiler tag code. So, you are definitely better off not looking at the tag until you're done with the show.

Oh, also, have you come across The Audio Guide to Babylon 5? I forget how you feel about podcasts, but if podcasts are a thing that work for you, it is a good one!

but I do feel like he's performing a role in that scene - for himself and for Vir as well as Na'Far - and this is part of why he wants Vir away from the moral blast radius of his current life choices

Nod. I agree it's a performance, but also did not feel any better for thinking that... Also, "moral blast radius" is a great phrase and very applicable here.

Edited 2025-03-20 22:46 (UTC)

But it's just such a horrible thing to do on every level, and it kept escalating! I'd think he'd hit the worst of it, and then no, it got worse!

I talk about it a lot now as a skill set I admire in actors, but I think Peter Jurasik may have been my formative demonstration of following a character down as far as the story requires without once hesitating for vanity. Londo hasn't carved his heart out: he wouldn't have sat up with Lennier, he wouldn't be trying to get Vir out of what you so excellently describe as his blast radius. But he is involved with irrevocable mass atrocity on a daily level of personal responsibility and there's no evading it. There's no way of making it look sad or nice or necessary. Jurasik doesn't try and it makes the character.

Edited 2025-03-20 22:28 (UTC)

This may be my single favorite episode in the series so far. It was awesome. Bombs! Peril! Injury! Hilarity!

The elevator scenes were a significant contributor to my father actually starting to ship Londo and G'Kar, which he has done for the last somehow it's been thirty years, because both of my non-communally-fannish parents came factory-installed for slash goggles and shipping opinions and meta. "I hate my life." – "So do I." – "SHUT UP."

I love/hate/PAIN how obvious it is that he's sending Vir away to get Vir away from him - he can see the corrupting influence he's having on Vir, and also, at this point Vir is maybe the only person who still likes him, and he's got to get Vir away from him (and on to something better and safer) before Vir either turns against him too, or becomes too much like him.

All of this. It isn't an exact parallel, but it feels linked to me with the second-season duel where Londo has to kill his oldest friend in order to preserve his family from political persecution, as if he can't protect anyone except in these negative, self-scarring ways. Denying that he needs anyone is so desperately, visibly untrue and he has to make himself at least pretend to believe it, because he's not going to be able to keep moving otherwise, and he's moving in a direction he should stop. Vir is the one person right now who could keep him human and it's too much of a risk to Vir.

(I really loved the return of Ta'Lon. You were talking earlier about how even the background chatter of the station feels like real people's lives going on and having one-shot characters turn out not to be one-shots is part of that texture for me.)

Edited 2025-03-20 21:57 (UTC)

"I hate my life." – "So do I." – "SHUT UP."

I can tell that exchange will be popping into my head at unexpected times. It was perfect.

It isn't an exact parallel, but it feels linked to me with the second-season duel where Londo has to kill his oldest friend in order to preserve his family from political persecution, as if he can't protect anyone except in these negative, self-scarring ways. Denying that he needs anyone is so desperately, visibly untrue and he has to make himself at least pretend to believe it, because he's not going to be able to keep moving otherwise, and he's moving in a direction he should stop. Vir is the one person right now who could keep him human and it's too much of a risk to Vir.

Yes, this! "I need no one," says the man who has spent the last half-season or so desperately trying to hang onto and rebuild connections with people he cares about (Garibaldi, Delenn, Lennier) as they all pull away from him because of the morally reprehensible person he's becoming. And the one person who has stuck with him through all of this, who may also be the one person (at the moment) who can stop his slide into becoming a monster, is the one he has to send away because Londo still has enough compassion, empathy, and self-awareness to know that he can't let this happen to Vir.

(I really loved the return of Ta'Lon. You were talking earlier about how even the background chatter of the station feels like real people's lives going on and having one-shot characters turn out not to be one-shots is part of that texture for me.)

Yes, I love that! (And I understand I have more to look forward to along those lines.) I like how a lot of episodes that seem like a fairly typical one-off, basic sci-fi plots actually turn out to have long-term consequences like this.

It's fascinating to read these reviews because I can't figure out how much of this show I've actually watched. Some of this doesn't ring a bell (I can't say I remember anything about the elevator episode) but then other things make me go "yeah I remember this" (like Londo sending Vir away; which btw I kind of interpreted as him sending away the voice of conscience who would tell him he does have choices, everything he's doing is a choice, so that he can do what he will do anyway). I know I didn't osmosis this because I specifically didn't read spoilers for B5 thinking I'd get back into it, but based on what I remember from your summaries I watched way more than I thought. I must have watched some season in the middle of the show too, not just the later seasons!

It's so interesting that you remember so much of it! Especially since I know I watched the entirety of seasons 1-2 (but remember almost nothing about season 2) and suspect I must have seen at least some of season 3 just based on stuff I remember, but you seem to have seen (and remember) a lot of the later stuff.

like Londo sending Vir away; which btw I kind of interpreted as him sending away the voice of conscience who would tell him he does have choices, everything he's doing is a choice, so that he can do what he will do anyway

I think that's definitely part of it, but I think only part of it; he's definitely doing it for Vir's sake too, and there's also a bit where he tells Delenn that Vir reminds himself of a younger version of him ("before all of this") so I think there are also elements of wanting to preserve some tiny piece of the "him" that he realizes he's losing.

Yeah I thought I only saw the later season(s) but apparently I remember something in the middle. I have definitely never seen S1 though!

And yeah, agreed on Vir, it's many things, not just one reason.

Oh, Londo, Londo, Londo. I could never quite hate him, which I think is a tribute to Peter Jurasik. I almost hated him at this point. You have again reminded me of a scene that I had forgotten but that came right back: the elevator scene! I can't feel too bad for him because, as you say, he inflicted his own wounds. I very much wish he hadn't taken so many people down with him!

I love Sheridan and Delenn together.

I love Garibaldi, too. (Pay no attention to his actor. Forget there is an actor.)

I always wanted more Ivanova. Still do.

Peter Jurasik (and the writing) has an amazing ability to make it hard to hate Londo even when he's being an inhumane monster - as he certainly is during these episodes. As

sovay said above, he hasn't carved his heart out, and that makes it worse.

I really do love this whole cast; they're great!

Gah.....all the feels. That elevator episode is sooooo goooood. I still think of it sometimes randomly.

The elevator episode was simply delightful.

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Babylon 5 3x01-03

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