sholio | The Dark is Rising - the rest of the series

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The Dark is Rising - the rest of the series

Only short notes per book because I should probably have written these up right after I finished them ...

Over Sea, Under Stone - I really liked it!

It's definitely a book of a particular type, but a very fun and vivid one. I really enjoyed the kids, and I wonder if the introduction of actual magic (however subtle) would have been startling for someone who had come into it cold. Obviously it's much less of a surprise after having started with Dark is Rising! But it's a really enjoyable quest/treasure hunt and I had a lot of fun with it.

Also, I read the entire series as a kid without ever once catching onto Merriman = Merlin. Now that I've read the rest of it as an adult, I think I would probably have figured it out in Silver on the Tree, but that went completely over my head so it was startling to have it spelled out here.

The Grey King - A really lovely, evocative book; I enjoyed it even though I don't have a lot to say about it.

I did remember Bran, but not what the whole deal was with him, so it was fun working that out; I like the further development of powers beyond Light and Dark, and ways in which the Light and Dark balance each other. And the scenery descriptions and the kids' exploration of the Welsh mountains are gorgeous. I did not remember the dog's death at all, so that completely blindsided me!

Silver on the Tree - I could see why this was a lot of people's least favorite.

It's all right, I guess? But it certainly does feel like a lot of book for not a lot happening, which I guess is ironic for a book with a big climactic battle between good and evil. The descriptions of the Lost Land are really vivid and beautiful, but this one really doubled down on the parts I didn't care all that much about in this series (big magical set pieces, fated destinies and characters being jerked around by fate and given orders by more powerful characters) while also feeling strangely anticlimactic considering that the ultimate battle between good and evil to decide the fate of the world basically comes down to a courtroom-style debate over Bran's heritage in some random part of rural Wales. (Most likely a folklorically significant part, but still.)

I'm still figuring out how I feel about the ending. I am guessing that readers overwhelmingly hated the kids losing their entire memory of the rest of the series, but I kind of ... don't? I mean, in the context of the bigger picture, which is basically "the world belongs to humans now, it's up to you what you do with it" - which I liked. Mainly I was just glad that Bran didn't leave with the other magical folk and gets to stay with his friends and adopted family.

I'm glad I reread the series; it's been an entertaining read and now I'm feeling like I might want to do a similar dive into another series I haven't reread in a while.

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I did remember Bran, but not what the whole deal was with him, so it was fun working that out

When I re-read The Grey King in 2010, it turned out I had forgotten the chunk of the plot that is most meaningful to me.

the ultimate battle between good and evil to decide the fate of the world basically comes down to a courtroom-style debate over Bran's heritage in some random part of rural Wales.

I am fine with this choice, but it now reminds me of the celestial trial in Powell and Pressburger's A Matter of Life and Death (1946), deciding the dispensation of an airman who has become (if you take the mythological rather than medical interpretation of the film; it allows for both) liminally stuck between our world and the next. I can't prove any link between the two. The film was and remains very popular, but then again a similar sort of thing happens in Stephen Vincent Benét's "The Devil and Daniel Webster" (1936), so it might just have become a literary-folkloric motif.

(I am one of the people who does not like the memory wipe at the end of this series. I am not a fan of memory wipes in general; as an element of a plot, fine, as the wrap-up to one, I can't think of a time it's worked for me. I did a lot better with everyone keeping their memories even as ordinary people inherit the world at the end of the Prydain Chronicles.)

What series are you thinking of trying next?

Edited (the important questions) 2023-12-18 09:57 (UTC)

When I re-read The Grey King in 2010, it turned out I had forgotten the chunk of the plot that is most meaningful to me.

I hadn't thought about it, but I can absolutely see Owen Davies as very much your type of character. <3

it might just have become a literary-folkloric motif.

Oh, I can definitely see it as such! Though I think it would have worked better for me in a context that was either less grand-scale, or used the children protagonists' skills more intrinsically (though this does go along with the kids being frequently sidelined at key moments in this series). To be fair to the book, however, I was much more interested in the debate and John Rowlands' very human choices than in the mystical/magical battle surrounding it, and perhaps the author was too.

What series are you thinking of trying next?

I'm still deciding! The ones that first came to mind were those I've read or reread relatively recently, like the Ben January books or Amber Chronicles, but part of what made this so much fun was that I hadn't read these books since I was much younger and so it was familiar and yet not ... so I might do something like that again. Another boxed set I have from around the same time are the Madeline L'Engle ones, so perhaps those, or Prydain, or something in that general vein. This was so completely unlike anything I'm writing these days that it made a nice break from always reading through a slightly analytical lens.

It was only in recent years that I discovered A Wrinkle in time was part of a larger work and I still haven't read the others. I'd love to read your thoughts on this set.

Another boxed set I have from around the same time are the Madeline L'Engle ones, so perhaps those

That's neat. How many novels are in it?

(At last re-read, I still loved A Wind in the Door.)

From what I recall, it's got A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door, A Swiftly Tilting Planet, and Many Waters. (And possibly another aside from those, I'm not sure.) I'm not sure I still have it, but if I do, that might be a good one to go to from here, especially since it's one I own. Our local library is currently closed for renovations, so for the time being I can't just go there and swipe a whole series off the shelf - but when I can I will have more options!

From what I recall, it's got A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door, A Swiftly Tilting Planet, and Many Waters. (And possibly another aside from those, I'm not sure.)

(a) I would love to hear what you think of them on re-read.

(b) The box sets really interest me as a way of structuring a series for people. I don't mean that sarcastically. I read A Wrinkle in Time on its own, then discovered and read one after the other A Wind in the Door and A Swiftly Tilting Planet, then Many Waters came out (about which I have profoundly mixed feelings as a midrash, but I really like the nephilim and the seraphim). I never clicked with any of the Austin or O'Keefe books, even though An Acceptable Time is sometimes classed with the original Murry books. They all had titles like The Young Unicorns and Dragons in the Waters and A Ring of Endless Light and never contained any of the numinous thereby suggested, although at least one of them did have a mind-controlling laser, which was weird enough that I have remembered it lo these decades despite also remembering that I didn't actually like it.

Yeah, aside from those four, the only other ones I've read - both as used bookstore acquisitions as a 20-something, so with a more adult perspective - are An Acceptable Time, which I remember mostly because I liked the antagonist and wished he'd made better choices in the end (I always kind of wanted Yuletide fic about him); and The Arm of the Starfish, in which I found it very interesting to see L'Engle, obviously a Christian herself, trying to put herself in the position of a moral atheist, adding two and coming up with five. I give her points for trying, at least. (I think that was also the one in which the heroine was almost raped by her lesbian mentor...)

Edited (lost track of my punctuation) 2023-12-18 19:17 (UTC)

are An Acceptable Time, which I remember mostly because I liked the antagonist and wished he'd made better choices in the end (I always kind of wanted Yuletide fic about him)

You should ask for it some year! I am confident that AO3 contains the necessary critical mass of L'Engle readers.

The one where the heroine is almost raped by her lesbian mentor is A House Like a Lotus. Truly a scarring scene.

The Arm of the Starfish is the one where the moral atheist gets shot in a cathedral and dies in the arms of a canon with the word "God" on his lips. (Is it a cathedral? Did my memory just at that for extra drama?) This happens in front of his newfound BFF Adam who is profoundly scarred, because, IIRC, Adam is in some way responsible, having told something to a beautiful girl that he should not have shared. Then the beautiful girl nearly loses an arm to a shark attack and the only way to save it is for the doctor friend of the moral atheist to make use of his starfish research (because starfish regrow their limbs!) and Adam is appalled that the doctor willingly does so, but also oddly inspired by this example of redemptive forgiveness.

(Given the themes of redemptive forgiveness, I always wanted Zachary to make some movement toward becoming a better person, but if he didn't manage it in An Acceptable Time then clearly he just never did.)

It's been years since I read either of these books. L'Engle was just very good at writing books that stick in one's head forever.

(Given the themes of redemptive forgiveness, I always wanted Zachary to make some movement toward becoming a better person, but if he didn't manage it in An Acceptable Time then clearly he just never did.)

Zachary does not learn an everloving thing in An Acceptable Time! I was very annoyed about this. He's also SO CLOSE at one point and then goes the other way. Damn it, Zachary, we had such hopes for you.

I don't even like Zachary and I found his everlasting failure to learn anything or change in any way exasperating. Are there people like this? Yes. Did it seem like a weird choice for L'Engle to expend so much time and energy on this character, in so many different books, which have strong Christian themes about redemption, which never ever ever apply to him? Also yes!

I always wondered WHY SO MUCH ZACHARY?! I found him annoying but he just WOULD NOT GO AWAY. He always felt like a Lesson to me, rather than a character.

I always wondered WHY SO MUCH ZACHARY?!

THE ETERNAL QUESTION. L'Engle must have enjoyed writing him, because he keeps turning up like a bad penny, but why?? I realize that authors sometimes fall for their villains, but he's not even a fun villain, really.

A Ring of Endless Light had telepathic or, at least, telepathic-adjacent dolphins, but you're not wrong about the rest of the Austin branch, as far as I recall. I remember Troubling A Star mostly for its jarring callback to prior in-universe events; apparently El Zarco was deposed in a bloody coup, to which I said both oh no! and *ex*cuse me! :( Way to undo everything Charles Wallace and company did. Yeesh.

There was at least one novel involving Meg and Calvin's daughter Polly that *did* deal with time travel, forward and back, and people previously encountered only in might-have-beens. That one I enjoyed, for the most part. It's been ages; I should reread.

I also would love to hear what you think of the L'Engles on re-read.

I've only read The Grey King once, probably because I remembered the dog dying. But it was very atmospheric.

Like you, I enjoyed the Lost Land section of Silver on the Tree most, though I liked the book in general enough to reread it. Might do it again this winter since the Welsh references would mean more to me now than they did twenty plus years ago. I've walked through the fossilised remains of trees on the beach at Borth and skirted Llyn Barfog near Aberdyfi since then.

I remember loving gramarye1971's Dark is Rising/Harry Potter crossover fanfic when I was in my teens. It featured an older Will without his friends. I certainly thought it captured the angst of being an Old One combined with Will's general disinclination to angst. (Not going to revisit it in case in doesn't match my memories!)

Re: memory wipe. I'm neither for nor against. These days — especially since I've been reading Lev Grossman's meta Narnia Magicians trilogy — it does strike me as being rather manipulative in the nature of Aslan's "and now you must leave Narnia" announcements.

Oh, visiting the actual places must make such a difference! I loved the scenery descriptions, but it has no specific personal resonance for me. (On the other hand, discovering that Watership Down was based on real places and finding pictures of them online was so shocking and exciting; it was like seeing photographs of Narnia or Middle Earth. But that was a book I reread endlessly as a child.)

I liked the way the Magicians books actively called out and dealt with the cruel capriciousness of this sort of thing, even though it doesn't quite bother me on that level personally. (Actually I loved those books a lot - far more than I was expecting to. The last book in the series made me cry more than once, and I still think of some of the scenes in it from time to time.)

Maybe that kind of thing - the Narnia thing, the mindwipe here - are so prevalent in kids' books because kids' lives are full of (to them) arbitrary and implacable rules established by grownups, so it's not so much of a change. I don't remember having any strong feelings on it when I was a kid, or even really noticing it all that much. My memories of these books are extremely vague, but I read the Narnia books over and over, and it didn't bother me at all; I just took it for a given that it was a rule of the place and nothing could be done.

I remember loving gramarye1971's Dark is Rising/Harry Potter crossover fanfic when I was in my teens. It featured an older Will without his friends. I certainly thought it captured the angst of being an Old One combined with Will's general disinclination to angst. (Not going to revisit it in case in doesn't match my memories!)

There's always been something really tragic yet pragmatic about Will. While I'm not going to go looking for the fic either, I think seeing how he develops through time would be very interesting.

Although we had a box set of The Dark is Rising sequence on the shelves for my entire childhood, I only read it as an adult after one of my college friends raved about it. She shipped Will/Bran. I was very surprised Bran didn't show up till book four! She also loathed the memory-wipe ending, so I went in knowing that was going to happen, which dampened any emotional reaction on my part. But I wonder what I would have felt about it if I'd gone into it cold.

There's definitely whiplash between the kid's-own-adventure of Over Sea, Under Stone and the more high fantasy battle-between-good-and-evil of The Dark Is Rising. I enjoyed the first book, and I did like parts of the second - as you said in your other post, the atmosphere is fantastic - but Will spent most of the book being shuffled through the plot like a counter on a board, "being jerked around by fate and given orders by more powerful characters" as you said. The same in Silver on the Tree, my other least favorite.

It's such an interesting series, though, just for being so varied - different tones, different kinds of fantasy. I've always wondered if she meant the first two books to be connected from the beginning or decided to do it when she got to Greenwitch.

I've always wondered if she meant the first two books to be connected from the beginning or decided to do it when she got to Greenwitch.

I wondered that as well! They're connected somewhat already, because Merriman appears in both. But I'm very curious at what point she decided that she was writing an epic fantasy series ending in a final clash between good and evil, as opposed to a series of loosely connected fantasy books that occasionally shared plausibly deniable characters in cameos.

In retrospect I'm glad I started with The Dark is Rising despite possibly liking Over Sea, Under Stone more overall as a book, because the parts of Dark is Rising that I loved as a kid, I really loved, and I feel as if the vivid winter season that is the main thing that's stuck in my head all these years was a much more memorable introduction to the series than the relatively ordinary kids-adventure-by-the-seaside would have been. That is, since it's inevitable to get whiplash one way or the other, I feel that I got it in the direction that works best for me! But it is a really unusual series. I can't think of many others with multiple entry points that are so different in tone. Vorkosigan, maybe, or Discworld, but those are more clearly signposted as where exactly they belong in the series, as opposed to this one channeling you into the main events on two parallel tracks.

But I'm very curious at what point she decided that she was writing an epic fantasy series ending in a final clash between good and evil, as opposed to a series of loosely connected fantasy books that occasionally shared plausibly deniable characters in cameos.

Per this interview from 1999: "When I wrote the first book, of course, I didn't envision a series, but later, when I first had the idea of writing, not just the second book, but the whole sequence, I drew up a plan on a piece of paper." Part of the reason for the differences between Over Sea, Under Stone and the rest of the series is not just that it was written as a one-off a decade prior to The Dark Is Rising, it was written for a publishing competition in honor of E. Nesbit, which I think makes a lot of sense of the tone. I hadn't seen her remarks about the structure of Silver on the Tree; she's right that it doesn't have any. I wonder if she would have done better to partition it into two books rather than take out as much of the original draft as she implies. Six Signs, six books would have worked just fine.

Oh, that's a fascinating interview - I have it open in a tab and I'm reading it right now. Thank you for digging that up! I really relate to what she says about leaving a place making you more interested in learning about it and writing about it. I definitely found that happening to me with Alaska during my 20-something years when I was living elsewhere, which was the only time in my life to date that I ever really wrote about it much.

Oh, that's a fascinating interview - I have it open in a tab and I'm reading it right now. Thank you for digging that up!

You're welcome! I had wanted to source the bit about the Nesbit contest before dropping it into comments and the rest of it turned out to be extremely relevant. I was also interested by her comment about wanting to do more with Jane. I wonder if she ever meant to return to the characters.

I definitely found that happening to me with Alaska during my 20-something years when I was living elsewhere, which was the only time in my life to date that I ever really wrote about it much.

That's really neat. I had sort of the opposite experience: I did not start to write deliberately about the Boston area until I had moved back to it.

I was also interested by her comment about wanting to do more with Jane. I wonder if she ever meant to return to the characters.

Jane was by far the character I found most interesting and relatable among the Drew kids, perhaps picking up on the author's feelings about her! Of course, we also get her viewpoint more than the others, which helps.

It feels at the end like she's done with the characters, but I would also be interested in reading a book about adult Jane.

I had sort of the opposite experience: I did not start to write deliberately about the Boston area until I had moved back to it.

Also perfectly valid; I can see very reasonably how it could work the other way too!

Thank you for linking this interview! Fascinating to know that the first book was written for a competition in honor of E. Nesbit; it is extremely Nesbit in feel, so that makes total sense.

Oh, wow, I didn't know that about the Nesbit contest!

I wonder if people who started with The Dark Is Rising tend to react more negatively to the memory wipe than people who started with Over Sea, Under Stone. It's horrifying on some levels either way, of course, but to me there's a difference between "this series started with magic, and now all the magic is gone" and "this series started with a Kid's Own Adventure that seemed mundane on the surface, and then magic came and went, and now we've come full circle and all that was below the surface is hidden again." I find the latter more narratively satisfying.

I have also been in a rereading mood lately (very rare for me!). I don't know what I'll pick up next. Westmark? Pratchett? Hobb?

I could definitely see that! I hadn't noticed the thematic loop until you pointed it out, but I definitely think part of my not-so-vehement reaction has to do with the kids having started out as, basically, pawns who have no idea what's going on, so having them go back to that state wasn't too jarring for me.

Also, they're all just so young! Will is 11 in Dark is Rising, the older Drew kids are presumably about his age, and Bran isn't mentioned as being any older that I recall, so none of them can be older than about 12-13 by the end of the final book. Not having your life peak at age 12 isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I have also been in a rereading mood lately (very rare for me!). I don't know what I'll pick up next. Westmark? Pratchett? Hobb?

It's a good season for rereading! I may just go through my bookshelves for a while.

I did hate the memory wipe, but I always hate the trope of magic leaving however it manifests.

It's interesting, I know a lot of readers hate this, but I've never minded it. Obviously it does depend on how it's done. But of course different readers are different! (I do generally dislike or outright hate mindwipe endings; it's interesting that I'm okay with it in this case.)

Would you believe that, as a kid, I found The Grey King first? Cue little me, between L'engle and Cooper, becoming thoroughly enchanted with northern Wales! This was the book that taught me the rudiments of Welsh pronunciation; related, Will and Bran horsing around running down that hill will never not amuse me. Will nearly falling into the *lake* but for a fortunate ledge, and then being rescued by a shocked adult, will never not give me the chill sparks of something that's definitely not fear or dismay, which... tells on me. Ahem.

This was also the book that little me got busted sitting up reading at one in the morning - we were at Girl Scout camp, there had been tornado warnings over a period of days, and I was both unbothered and awake where my sister was thoroughly freaked, so I stuck my nose in a novel. :)

I do genuinely love how different the experience is when you come into a series with various books as the starting point! Even more so as a kid, when the experience can be so much more vivid as it's fresh and new.

I bounced hard off the memory wipes even earlier in the books, and so I was already side-eyeing the sequels so I never really fully "read" them as a kid, just skimmed them to find out what happens and the memory wipe there just made me not want to get involved at all.

I can definitely understand that! I can react very badly to this, and I think it didn't bother me so much in the end because it was something I just had to grit my teeth and accept earlier in the books, so by that point I was already resigned to it.

Man, I think it is really time I tried this series again. Having now read all the books, which book do you recommend starting with first?

I think based on what I know about your tastes, probably The Dark is Rising would be the best one to start with. It's got a powerhouse opening and is more epic/modern fantasy and less little-kiddish in general feel than either Over Sea, Under Stone or Greenwitch. (Greenwitch has some folk-horrorish aspects I think you'd enjoy, although it is otherwise a fairly weak book.)

(Greenwitch has some folk-horrorish aspects I think you'd enjoy, although it is otherwise a fairly weak book.)

I love the making of the Greenwitch and the conversation of Will with Tethys, but the descent of the Wild Magic on Trewissick is the best.

Cool! I'm officially adding these to my "books to read in 2024" list.

I'll be interested to find out what you think!

I read Over Sea, Under Stone and adored it, and then was so confused by The Dark Is Rising and it not having any of the characters I liked from the first one that I never finished it or read the rest of the series. As an adult I have much less of a knee jerk "no!" reaction to a shift in main characters, so I feel like I should try again!

Good luck if you do! I didn't enjoy everything about the series, but I definitely enjoyed my reread overall.

I also hate the memory wipe. As much as I imprinted on The Dark is Rising to the point of memorizing the Sign chant, I think Cooper's Seaward works better as a single book.

I have remembered that I read Over Sea, Under Stone last! It took me a while to find it in a library (I was in elementary and middle school while reading these). I didn't own my own copies until college.

The dog in Grey King is the only thing I really recall from these books - that they have a beloved dog and then the antagonist dog? wolf? fox? canid, like, pretends to be/looks like the protagonist dog and kills a sheep, setting up the protag dog to be killed by the farmer? There was some real horror in them seeing what was happening and not being able to turn events.

I tried rereading Prydain a few months ago and bounced off hard, I'll warn you. I remember really liking them when I was younger, but I no longer have patience for how young they are pitched. I haven't tried L'Engle since middle or maybe highschool - my middle school library had a ton of her work, which is how I learned there were more books outside of the Wrinkle/Wind/Tilting trilogy.

Other suggestions for young-me books you might also have read - the Enchanted Forest chronicles (which do hold up, except the last one), the early Tamora Pierce quartets, Patricia McKillip, Robin McKinley, Jane Yolen, or Monica Furlong.

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The Dark is Rising - the rest of the series

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