sholio | A couple of links

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A couple of links

How in the world am I supposed to come up with convincingly alien creatures when our planet contains animals like this? (Link leads to video of birds of paradise on Youtube. Wow, those things are WEIRD.)

In other news, following along from the recent round of concrit discussion and debate, there's a new comm:

concrit_my_fic, which is just what it sounds like: a place for writers to offer up their fic for constructive criticism. The introductory post is located here. I will admit that several things about that introductory post rubbed me the wrong way, particularly its opening paragraph; I understand that the comm was obviously created in reaction to the fan debates on concrit, but it basically opens up with (as I read it) a cheap shot at the other side. That, and the moderation style implied by the post, make it sound like something I don't want to participate in. I think it's a good idea, however, and worth pointing out; I hope people get a lot of use out of it.

Edit: I did mention my concerns in a comment to the intro post.

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...Now I'm really wishing I'd gone and made the concrit comm myself, as I was considering it, and it would make a good writer's tool. But...yeah...some of this one rubs the wrong way. The "*honest*" especially, rather than "complete" or "good and bad" or something more neutral...some of the pro-crit side seems to actually believe that everyone who gives positive feedback on a fic is lying solely to puff up the author's fragile butterfly soul. That you cannot truly enjoy a fic without reservations, and

ARGH NOT GETTING INTO THIS SHUTTING UP NOW.

Sorry!!

(The trouble with your lj being a safe place for discussions is that every post you write gets me into discussion mode!)

(The trouble with your lj being a safe place for discussions is that every post you write gets me into discussion mode!)

Oops. XD Well, you know that I don't mind, particularly with people I trust to be reasonable (such as you).

By the way, I know that I kinda stepped away from the discussion that we were having in the last thread -- mostly due to getting sucked away into other things. I did plan to answer some of those comments, but ... uh. Maybe I'll get back to it? I felt like I pretty much said my final piece on the topic over at your journal, anyhow.

This, though ... I wonder how acceptable it would be to offer concrit on a mod post in a concrit comm? *g* Because, really, I found it incredibly off-putting, especially in a context where they should be reaching out to new comm members and not pushing a divisive point of view. It was definitely one of those "Get off my side, you're making us look bad!" moments. It certainly does not make me want to rush out and join the comm -- not, of course, that I have any ill feelings towards anyone who does, but I really don't want to.

By the way, have you seen

sga_talk? It's an SGA fic discussion community. I haven't spent nearly as much time over there as I meant to -- I really *wanted* to participate more, but it's a combination of lack of time, and just not having much to say about most of the stories that have come up. However, in that case, it's very well-modded and has a good overall vibe, and it's totally opt-in -- you have to offer up your fic in order to have it come up for discussion, so everyone knows what they're getting into.

Ah, don't worry about that other discussion - I'm kind of getting burnt out myself, saying the same things and getting myself more confused in neutrality (your point in my post was excellent, that it's really mostly about where you're coming from when you come into fandom - everyone wants to interpret the situation differently, and every interpretation has its own rules and expectations. To the pro-crit side, not giving crit is as insulting and denying to both readers and authors as giving crit is to the anti-crit side, and I haven't a clue how to reconcile that...!)

Actually - I was just going to post some concrit to that comm post myself. Er...any chance you could 'beta' this? I don't want to get into an argument over there, but I would like to feel comfortable about joining the comm, as in theory it's a great idea. And I don't know if they're deliberately meaning to be insulting, there's just such strong feelings on both sides. So I was thinking of posting this:

Cool! I was actually considering starting a comm like this myself, as having an established space for concrit would not only be a useful tool for a writer, but could better define what concrit is for readers and authors alike, and thus perhaps help it to be accepted in the wider circle of fandom.

I have three points/questions:

--Is there any rule about authors replying to the concrit? Obviously they must stay polite, but beyond that are there any guidelines?

--Since this is a cross-fandom comm, "fandom: X" tags would help people more easily find stories in fandoms they know.

--You may want to consider changing the wording of the opening paragraph. It rubbed me the wrong way when I read it, both the implications that there are no safe places for fanfic concrit anywhere else online, and especially the "get *honest* feedback". As a reader, I do not offer unsolicited concrit because I don't know how the author will take it, but I am insulted by the implication that I am being dishonest when I leave positive feedback on a fic. I only leave positive feedback about the aspects of a fic I honestly liked; that I will on occasion refrain from mentioning aspects I disliked does not mean I am lying. Perhaps "complete feedback," or "comprehensive" or "inclusive"?

You think I should let it be, or plunge in? (...or do you want to plunge in instead?)

Hmm! I think your wording looks reasonable, and I really *do* feel as if something should be said. (And hey, good questions/suggestions, btw. I hadn't even thought of asking about the author thing, though, since authors post their own fic to this one, I'd assume it would be okay for the author to get involved). I don't know if you feel that criticism of the intro post's wording would be more acceptable coming from me, since I've gone on record as being pro-concrit ...

Hmm...actually, if you're willing...crit on the post might go over better coming from you? I'm awful leery about starting another kerfuffle...if you'd be willing to comment instead, I'd be cool with that (and feel free to use whatever parts of my wording you agree with)?

Otherwise, I'll post my comment when I get back from work tonight.

(Ah, such minefields all around! One would think pro-critters would be good about accepting crit, but...)

Ha, but now you're falling into the inverse of the fallacy you mentioned in one of your other comments (that if someone doesn't want crit on their fic, they can't accept it in other areas of their life). Just because someone is fine with crit on their fic doesn't necessarily mean that they're equally okay with criticism in any area of their life...

In any case, I'll ponder what to say while I bang my head against my original fic some more. Also, looks like someone already brought up fandom tagging in the comments...

Heh - you're totally right about me mis-applying my own theories (I kinda want to do a post on the fallacies maintained by both sides. Except I think everyone's had enough of this for now! Maybe next time the issue pops up...)

Anyway, wanted to say thanks for making that comment, I think it was worded well, and will come off better coming from a pro-critter (...okay, I admit it, I just like the excuse to use the word "critter". I've always thought it an adorable word...) I hope they do change it to make it more friendly, because I'd like to participate, but feel uncomfortable with the comm's polarizing position as it is...

Interestingly, I offered my own concrit of the concrit rules, and found that what I assumed (and yes, yes, ass u me totally applies here) was the popular understanding of concrit is not the mod's. I'm fascinated by that. I'm baffled by the different definition - I really truly can't wrap my head around it - but that's beside the point given that the mod's been clear about how concrit applies in her comm; more power to her. What fascinates me is that during the Great Debate I think many of us thought we were talking about the same thing and were actually talking about radically different things, even while using similar vocabulary.

No wonder there was such a kerfuffle - very few people, across the spectrum of opinions expressed, were using the same language. I really had no idea!

Hmmm. That's definitely different from my definition of concrit - I pretty much agree with

synecdochic's definitions (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/239518.html), but this comm is defining concrit as what I'd call commentary...

I think the Great Debate in general is a massive misunderstanding - not just of definitions but of innate protocol. People come to fandom with such different expectations that there's almost no reconciling them - it's a culture clash, one person's friendly wave is not going to be seen as so friendly if their traditional wave happens to include extending the middle finger, and who's right in that kind of argument? Everyone thinks they're being courteous, but courtesy means positive encouragement under one interpretation, full disclosure of opinions by another...

...I admit to being fascinated by the clash, even as I hope for eventual compromise...

I hadn't see

synecdochic's post, but I like it a lot. Very thoughtful definitions. And yes, I agree, the comm seems to be leaning toward commentary/review rather than concrit, under syn's rubric.

I agree with you - and I wonder if the compromise isn't reached by not talking about it, but simply doing, and tackling isolated cases of lines crossed as they enter our immediate sphere. I have no real idea - this is why my blog is generally nothing but pretty pictures and stories ;)

There's all this "Cult of Nice" and "Cult of Mean" being tossed around;

gnine and I want to throw in another one: "Cult of Squee". For all I get into these debates on occasion, and am fascinated by the sociology and psychology behind them, when it comes to fanning, pretty pictures and fun
fics ~~and David Hewlett's best woobie face~~ are what I'm really here for!

I agree, about the differing definitions! Reading that part of the thread (as well as the comm's definition of concrit for community purposes) I was really amazed at how much of what *I* consider concrit is disallowed by the community rules. (Pointing out typos isn't concrit? Wuh?) Obviously, there *needs* to be some kind of definition for community purposes, and obviously not everyone is going to agree -- it's really interesting to think about how many people in the debates were presumably working from very different definitions and assuming they were all talking about the same thing.

I'm with you on the typos / grammar stuff. How can a reader assess ideas when the author's expression prevents it?

My reservations about the community have been deepened after seeing the mod's latest reply to you. I sincerely hope people will get something out of the comm, and I'm sure they will; there seems to be an appetite for what the comm is offering. But it's definitely time for me to go back to my own corner of fandom and leave the matter be.

After reading her reply to me, I was wondering whether I was being unreasonable by pushing for the changes that I suggested to her. So thank you for this comment; it makes me feel more justified in my concerns, and less like a pushy bitch. *g* I am not really sure what to say back to her at this point -- I'm all for the existence of the community, but not comfortable if it's being created as a sort of "... in your face!" to the other side, and I don't really think the mod understands what my concerns actually *are*. However, to be fair, she *did* implement a couple of changes to the most over-the-top parts of the intro post, and while I still think it's uncomfortably partisan, it feels less like a poke in the eye.

For now, I guess I'll stick around there, comment on a couple of the stories and see how the moderating seems to be handled. It's my hope that she's simply trying to head off trouble at the pass and doesn't intend to moderate as heavily as the rules posts make it sound. With the ficathon I ran this winter, I discovered how hard it was to write up my rules in a way that kept everyone pulling in more or less the same direction without sounding like I was trying to micromanage every last thing they wrote. It's really hard not to err one way or the other. The partisanship bothers me and I really feel like it gets the community off on the wrong foot, but as long as the moderating is fairly laissez-faire, it probably won't end up making a difference.

Okay, so ... I offer a comment, only to be told that my comment doesn't meet the community's standards. (http://community.livejournal.com/concrit_my_fic/3006.html?thread=25534#t25534) Which, okay, fair enough. But there is absolutely nothing in the guidelines to indicate that critiquing a story's formatting and presentation (as opposed to its content) is outside the purview of the comm. So apparently, not only are a bunch of things off-limits, but we'll be stumbling over new ones all the time.

Yeahhhh. I do think the comm is a great idea in theory, but I think I'll be sticking to

writers_lair and private betas for my fic-critiquing needs.

I can see her general point (as you do, too) but - your advice was well-placed. There might be a hundred wonderful stories out there that have been hard-coded into courier, for example; I'm not going to read one of them. Formatting does, as you pointed out, send certain signals about a writer's familiarity with fandom convention, and when people are in a hurry, bucking those conventions will generally get you weeded out rather than weeded in to people's reading.

Also, again, as you said, there's nothing to say this isn't allowed.

Let's hope it's just growing pains.

Yeah, I certainly *can* see her point. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's a great sign that the first comment I offered, I happened to stumble over yet another area where she and I appear to differ on what constitutes concrit ...

Oh well. It's a big Internet and it's big enough for all sorts of opinions!

Every time a new poll comes up for what to read next on

sga_talk I always try to vote for something I've read already, because that's the main thing that keeps me from participating. I always mean to read the fic in time, but never seem to do.

And btw, you can nominate stories to be discussed, either your own or by others, so long as you get author permission. I'm always going back and nominating stuff I found interesting.

And btw, you can nominate stories to be discussed, either your own or by others, so long as you get author permission.

Oh right! I keep forgetting about that! (So far, everyone I've asked has turned me down, though.)

Time has been a big issue for me. There have been a couple of stories come up for discussion that I really liked, but didn't have time to join in the discussions. Actually, if the original story I'm plugging on tonight doesn't start coming together shortly, maybe I'll go over there and try to throw my 2 cents into a couple of the discussions ...

Ah, a concrit community; how useful. :) Just like one of those coral reef cleaning stations where tropical fish and sharks que up to let cleaner wrasse remove parasites. Writers get their fic critiqued and critics get a meal; everybody goes home happy.

I don't mind anon commenting around here, but with the volatile nature of the concrit topic, I'm kinda leery of snarky comments from unidentified commenters. Maybe I do know you and you're just not signed in, but I'd appreciate it if you could sign a name.

I'm glad someone else brought that up and it wasn't just me - I think it's a great idea but I wish they hadn't worded in a way that it sounds like they're lobbying a canon ball into the 'other camp'. It's just going to put people off, which is a pity.

Yeah, I'm really thinking about going over there and saying something. I mean, it's not like I have anything to lose, really, and I think she's alienating a lot of people by making it look like the comm itself is a jab at the other side's position, when it doesn't have to be that way.

Have you seen the BBC's "Planet Earth"? That's where the clip is from, and basically every single sequence in every episode makes you stare in awe. It's probably the most beautiful documentary I've ever seen.

The first online community I ever participated in was a Yahoo mailing list called vsbeta, which was a BtVS beta list, the first place I ever dared posting fic to. I have no idea what made it work, but it was great - you'd post a fic (or a part of a fic), and you'd always get a couple of replies back, and they really weren't all positive, and that was okay. I don't remember whether the replies were pulic or not; since it was email based, they probably weren't, though I'm not sure. And I remember that I myself read almost every fic sent in and replied to it myself, no idea how I managed - I think stories were shorter and less complicated, or maybe we looked at them differently because the average age was lower than LJ fandom's. But it worked, and it was great, and if this new comm works out, it's a pretty great idea.

No, I haven't seen it! I came across the link to the clip elsewhere. I'll have to look for the whole show; it looks very cool.

It really takes audience participation to get any crit/beta list to work; some do and some don't, mostly because of the amount of effort that people are willing to put into reading and responding to fic. There are a lot of smart and dedicated writers on LJ, so I think this one has a good shot at succeeding if people give it a chance.

Will be curious to see how the concrit comm reacts to your concrit!

As for the birds of paradise - eheheee~! That part always, always cracks me up! Especially the little guy polishing a branch. I don't know why, but it's one of the funniest things I have ever seen. We watched the Planet Earth DVDs a couple of times through when I was in the US (they were fascinating enough that the incredibly energetic two-year old would sit still!), and the birds of paradise slay me. (It's even better when you've got the DVDs, and follow the crew on their filming of the scene. Think it took this particular photographer over 100 days to get these clips. Now that's dedication! Though I think the guys filming the snow leopard had it even worse...)

It sounds like an interesting idea. I'm surprised that an LJ community like that doesn't exist already actually - or have there been attempts in the past that didn't work out?

Loved the clip! I was thinking it was from 'The Life of Birds', but it seems it's from 'Planet Earth'. Two very, very good BBC wildlife docs with Sir David Attenborough that I can definitely recommend!

One of my favourite bits in 'The Life of Birds' is a crow in Japan that cracks open some sort of walnut-type nut. Only this one realised that dropping the nut onto a busy road got it broken without it having to do a lot of hard work. It then went on to notice that the traffic stopped every so often to let people across. So it drops the nut on the pedestrian crossing and sits at the side of the road waiting for the people to start crossing...and then goes eat the nut!!! Clever birds, those crows!

And yeah, you may notice my avoidance of the concrit minefield... Sorry, feeling too tired to get into all of that today.

*How in the world am I supposed to come up with convincingly alien creatures when our planet contains animals like this?*

Well, Shipper, you should do what any good sci-fic writer would do, stick some spikes to it, give it an even more bizarre coloring, give it a ferocious appetite for human flesh, a weird name and voila! Instant alien! *pats self on the back for the original idea* :-P

At least now we know were people got the idea for the smiley face. Pff

That's an amazing video! My favorite is the mating dance, where it sounds like the male is typing--and looks like he's displaying a great big happy face. "I love you THIS much!" Poor guy.

I can see your problems with the comm. I generally prefer not to get my concrit on a journal at all; I think e-mail works best.

Thanks for the vid link - my favorite bizarre bird is the cassowary in Australia. Interesting to think about how or why some of the birds evolved feather arrangements or patterns.

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A couple of links

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Hmmm.

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BBC's "Blue Planet" Redux on Concrit Comm :)

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