Hi world (with extra bonus meta!)

[sholio]

So, not only did I get back from vacation to find that my professional life (both on the writing front and the day-job front) had blown up in various ways, but my husband had moved all the furniture into the garage and refinished the floor. Which, on the one hand, is awesome, because it really needed it, and now it's shiny and gorgeous rather than dull and scratched, plus I didn't have to do any work at all! It just magically polished itself! The only problem is, while I was staying at ye ancestral homestead, my mother made it very clear that all the stuff I've been storing there since I moved out (fifteen years ago) HAS GOT TO GO. So I came back with my little car packed to the brim with boxes of old books, toys, clothes, letters, etc. that I need to go through and probably, in most cases, throw away or give to goodwill. But ... now I have no idea where or how or WHEN I'm going to be able to sort them! The car is still packed with stuff, and on top of that, the house reeks of varnish (it's giving me a headache) and it's obnoxiously chilly in here because we've had all the doors and windows open for two days and it's ALASKA so it's sixty degrees in July. And the dogs think the end of the world is here, and keep hiding in the bedroom, or clinging to my legs and requiring constant reassurance that, no, we didn't move all the furniture outside to punish them for something they can't remember doing.

I'm dealing with it in my usual mature and responsible fashion ... by hiding on LJ. Hello, LJ!

Where fandom has exploded, it seems. Again. In various ways. Rather than round up links, I'll just point you all at metafandom for details if you're curious, since that's where I'm getting most of them from anyhow. Basically, there appear to be two things making the rounds right now:

- Thing One: A fairly well-known asshat at fanthropology publicly "outed" a fanfic writer, connecting her personal and professional identities.

I'm not sure if my association with anyone on my current flist goes back this far, but I used to write fanfic under my real name. I stopped and switched to pseuds (first Sholio, later friendshipper) because I realized that being associated with fanfic could hurt my fledgling RL writing career. I've never tried THAT hard to keep them separate, so I honestly haven't as much to lose as some people do, but the thought of being maliciously outed had occurred to me from time to time, usually in a "... but no one would be that nasty, would they?" kind of way. Well, apparently, yes they would, and it freaks me out that there are people so petty, small-minded and stupid in fandom. Some people maintain a separate fannish pseudonym because their career could be hurt; some people are worried about other RL issues (stalkers, family finding their journal, etc); some just like the freedom of being able to create their own identity online; others probably have other reasons, but no matter what, they obviously chose to maintain that privacy for a REASON. Exposing the connection between a person's pseudonym and their real name is probably the most gross violation of online privacy that anyone can commit, short of publishing their address and phone number. Whether you're in fandom or not, it's an obvious, fundamental violation of online etiquette (and just general manners).

Someone might be new online, and not realize that. Someone might slip and refer to a friend by their RL name, which happens to me more than I'd like, especially with people that I have strong offline friendships with -- exchanging emails under real names and then switching to fandom pseudonyms can be tricky, especially since I'm pretty casual about using my real name online (and, generally, don't mind if other people do), so it often doesn't occur to me until after the fact that I've slipped up. I'm such a moron sometimes that I wouldn't be surprised (though I don't remember specifically) if I've accidentally referenced other people, especially the better-known ones, in unlocked discussions without thinking about it. You can do it by mistake and not mean any harm, though it's something I'm trying to be more careful about.

But outing someone on a large fan board, on purpose ... that's obviously malicious and I'm very glad that fandom's come down on her hard. This is an utterly despicable thing to do to anyone online. (Although, having said that, I doubt if it would be more of a minor annoyance for me personally, because I've never worked that hard at keeping mine separate, and anyone with rudimentary googling skills can figure it out. But just because it's not that important to me doesn't mean anyone can go around doing it to be a dickwad. I'm always happy to let a friend stay on my couch, but if I come home to find a total stranger and all their buddies sleeping on my couch, I will be pissed.)


-Thing Two: The ever-popular to-criticize-or-not-to-criticize debate. When I saw that this one was making the rounds again, I actually thought I'd started it, because shortly before I left there was a locked discussion on my LJ about concrit. I was relieved, in a way, to discover that it's a completely unrelated thing, and a little different from what I was talking about -- although, my relief that I hadn't started a mess and then accidentally walked away to let everyone else deal with it was tempered by the fact that people I know and respect are getting attacked for their beliefs, and that's never cool.

The difference between this debate, and the one in my journal, is that I was wondering how far it's okay to go when you're commenting on someone else's story -- that is, bringing your opinions into their space. This, apparently, unless I'm totally missing the reading-comprehension boat, involves the whole idea of critizing other fen's stories in one's own journal. (Here's the original post, and attached discussion, that spawned the round of meta. The original post is fairly unclear what sort of concrit it's talking about; the discussion makes clearer that the topic at hand is not comments on fanfic, but third-party discussion/debate/reccing that isn't glowingly positive.)

Here's how I see it: This journal is MY SPACE. I try to be polite, reasonable and a good fannish citizen, and treat others as I'd like to be treated; I do hope that nothing I post here will be blatantly offensive to anyone, but, being human, I'm sure that I'll stumble sometimes, and I hope that someone calls me on it if I do. I also try to be a hands-off moderator and let other people disagree with me; I don't think I've ever deleted a comment, the only people I've banned are blatant trolls and spammers, and I've only ever gone back and made private an unlocked post once or twice (and I felt very bad about it).

But, when it comes right down to it, the sole arbiter of what I post in my space is me, and me alone. And nobody gets to tell me what I can post here. Well, of course, you're perfectly welcome to TRY -- you can announce to the world that you want everybody else to write a particular kind of thing in their journals, at which point I will simply laugh at you and carry on as I have been.

You have every right to police your space as you see fit. If you don't want concrit and I invade your journal with a critical review, then I'm the one who's being rude, by imposing my own fannish values on your space. (It may not stop me, but I do understand that I run that risk, and if I get a poor reception, *I'm* the one who has erred.) But the suggestion that other fen are being rude by having the type of discussions that they want to have, in their own space ... that's just completely ridiculous, to me. I don't agree, and I have no intention of doing anything other than starting the discussions that *I* want to have, in the manner that I want to have them.

I know that there will always be differing opinions on this, and it will probably go on being a perennial topic of fannish discussion as long as there is such a thing as fandom. However, I'm pretty firmly in the "Don't like? Don't read" camp. Obviously, this means that everyone else is entitled to post whatever they want in their journals, too, which includes screeds on other people's journaling behavior. Just don't expect that you'll change how I do things.

Comments

[villainny.livejournal.com]

re: the reviewing argument, I agree entirely. You've eloquently summed up what I think so I don't have to add to the incredible number of posts already on the topic, cheers. :)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you. :)

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

I wish I had your way with words. This is very well put.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

*blush* I appreciate that; it's just the contents of my brain on the issue, dumped out onto the page ...

[berlinghoff79.livejournal.com]

Word on...everything. Even your rl stuff.*nods*

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thanks! And why does the RL stuff always happen at ONCE, that's what I'd like to know! I could deal with it so much more easily if it was just one thing at a time...

[amalthia]

Well said.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I read something that I think dealt with the same issue from a link from tejas, and I feel even more at sea than I did last night! Have I missed something?

I can understand saying on your own journal, "Oh, I didn't like that story" or "here's a better one," but I got the feeling--maybe I'm paranoid--that more than that is at stake.

Are we talking about posting, "Oh, don't look at that story" or "Oh, I like what she does with the characters, but the writing's a little rough?" I found the latter about one of my stories by accident on a page of someone I didn't know (following links to story recs), and I was, I'll admit, a little hurt. But then I cheered up, because she was recommending it, and she did find things she'd liked. I didn't think the writing was rough; I thought it went very well with the point of view I'd chosen. But she (or he, I should say, as I really don't know) was entitled to that opinion.

Or are we talking about what I've found in one community, where sentences or sometimes chunks of stories are cut-and-pasted, with links to the original stories, and mocked? I forgot the name of the community; I don't intend to go back there. I couldn't imagine saying some of those things about people (even if there were terrible typos, and continuity errors, and egregiously bad characterization and writing); it just seemed nasty. It was a community devoted to laughing at people behind their backs--but it is a community, and anyone can read it, and I'm a little afraid to find myself targeted there.

You have a right to post what you want, but does that make it "right" in another sense?. When a number of people post extracts with their own purely negative comments, and then dozens of commenters pile on, not making constructive criticism (which isn't constructive for the author if she never sees it), or even saying anything that seems to me useful to other writers, I don't think they should be banned, but I think they are rude and wrong to do it. Some of the comments simply insulted the authors: their education, their intelligence, the possibility that they had disabilities (seriously, not funny!); some broke out the obscenities in the course of the mocking.

I have read some really bad fics. I have a guilty pleasure I'm afraid even to mention here: I know of one fanfic writer who isn't writing crackfic, but a couple of that writer's stories have read that way to me, and I entertain myself by reading them for laughs. I won't even say that person's username, let alone mock that person.

I know (from discussion at fandom_rants) that "reasonable people can disagree" on a lot of things, but I also think that reasonable people can agree on some. If we want to talk about kidfic or mpreg and whether we like these things, that's one thing; to write that everyone who writes one of those stories is "a pervert" seems to me indeed to be rude. (I don't like either genre, by the way, but I don't slam the authors; I just avoid it.) And is it not rude to ridicule a specific story and invite other people to join in the ridicule?

I thought "Don't like? Don't read" applied to stories (and I agree--provided the author has given proper warnings: don't label porn "teen" or rape stories "R" with no non-con warning). Does it apply to attacks on people? If someone attacks me or my friends, do I just say, "Well, I shouldn't read that?" and not say, "Yes, I had a typo, but you have no business saying I'm brain-damaged"?

Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but I've seen some of it, quite recently, so it's heavily on my mind. I should have a thicker skin, I suppose, but the idea that it's acceptable for whole groups of people to jeer at those who have not made themselves public figures bothers me. And I don't think just posting on LJ, or writing fic, should make one an acceptable target for ridicule.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you weighed in, because, especially on something like this, I *want* to hear from those who have different opinions about it, too. It helps me work through my own opinions.

I don't have any hard-and-fast rules for where people's behavior slides over the line from juvenile and obnoxious to actively harmful. The juxtaposition of the two parts of my post kinda tells the tale, because I believe that posting someone's real name in connection with their fannish identity is actively harmful (in a way that mocking their fanfic is not) and the fannish community *should* reject that kind of behavior.

I also think there's a pretty big difference between being prohibitive about it ("No one should criticize someone else's story") and actively reacting to someone doing the thing -- "You criticized my story, but you're WRONG, WRONG, WRONG." I'd rather respond on a case-by-case basis than try to come up with some sort of blanket prohibition and smack down anyone who violates it, whether or not they've actually offended me or anyone else.

Where do *you* draw the line between "okay" and "not okay" -- online, or in real life? It's different for every situation, right? And for every person. If your neighbor puts up a butt-ugly lawn sculpture, it might be annoying, but I doubt if you'd go to the city council about it. If your neighbor plays loud music that keeps you from sleeping, that's when you might decide that their neighbor's right to behave as they want on their own property is being trumped by their lack of consideration for your own peace of mind. On the other hand, maybe you *like* loud music and you're fine with it, where another person might be upset.

So ... do you make some kind of hard-and-fast rule to cover every situation -- "Everything my neighbor does is my business" (right down to the color they paint their house) or "Nothing my neighbor does is my business" (even if their pit bull is eating your cat)? That's essentially what I'm objecting to, that kind of one-size-fits-all mentality -- "No one should post anything negative because it might offend someone." That's what it sounds like you're asking ME to do -- to come up with a Grand Unified Theory of Fannish Behavior that covers every situation I might encounter. Sorry, I don't have one. Basically, I try to behave politely but honestly in fandom, and beyond that, I let the specifics of the situation, and my conscience, be my guide. If I see someone being (in my opinion) an asshat, I am ABSOLUTELY not going to let some sort of arbitrary fannish rule about being nice to people stop me from calling them on it.

I think fandom would be a more pleasant place if we all worked a little harder to ignore the ugly sculptures on our neighbor's lawn (and to ignore the people pointing and laughing at our ugly scupltures, too). On the other hand, sometimes a little sculpture-mocking is therapeutic and pleasant. "Don't like? Don't read" is my personal philosophy for dealing with the INEVITABLE presence of people in fandom who will be doing things that I'm bound to find gross, immoral, bizarre, unpleasant, flat-out wrong, or simply not my cup of tea. It doesn't matter if they're posting stories or meta -- what matters is, as long as they're not bringing it into my space, the decision of whether to read and react to it is mine. There will always be someone, somewhere, out there in fandom, who's doing something that puzzles, disgusts or horrifies me. Trying to argue with them and change them is just going to make me AND them unhappy.


If someone attacks me or my friends, do I just say, "Well, I shouldn't read that?" and not say, "Yes, I had a typo, but you have no business saying I'm brain-damaged"?

Er ... when did I EVER say that you can't defend yourself? What I'm saying is the exact opposite: that you CAN. It's your journal -- you can call them lying weasels if you want to. Heck, you can go into THEIR journal and defend yourself, too. They might smack you down for it, but there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

On the other hand ... if you *know* someone's post will upset you if you read it, why go there? Morbid curiosity? Why not just leave it alone? You're unlikely to change their minds, and your friends are probably on your side to begin with.

[water-soter.livejournal.com]

amen to that, Shipper!!! Also, I have a question about this issue with the outing, I had heard, and understood, or maybe misunderstood, that there's a list posted somewhere of ff writers with their real identities, is this true?

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen anything like that, but that doesn't mean much -- I also haven't read through all of the links. The only one I knew about was the one outing on fanthropology. I really *hope* no one has done something like that, but with all of this happening, I guess I wouldn't be surprised. (And, thanks!)

[vecturist.livejournal.com]

As far as criticism goes, I'm all for constructive criticism, I'll be the first to admit, I'm not the best writer. I do find it a balancing act though when someone really screws up the science - I'm a molecular biologist/mycologist/geneticist, so sometimes I have to bite my tongue if it's not central to the plot, unless its really bad. I will offer to help though if they need technical advice.

As far as 'outting' authors - there's a reason I don't have a myspace or facebook account. I think someone could find me if they really really wanted to, and several people know who I am, but that doesn't excuse it being broadcast.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Well, in this particular round of debate, it's less a question of telling them to their face, more a question of whether it's okay to nitpick the story in your own journal. Which, personally, I think should be okay ... but I know that people are touchy about it.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

Well said.

The "fandom is supposed to be fun" arguement tends to suppose that there is only one way to enjoy fandom: their way and any deviation from that is seen as a threat. Or that there is a Code of Conduct that all fen must adhere to, not just for the Good of the Community (tm), but also because if they don't it shows a flaw in their character. I worry that the arguement really being presented is that by not offering concrit means that I am in fact a better human being than someone that would.

There are so many different cultures and personality types knocking about the place it's no wonder that we're not all going to see eye to eye on what we want out of this and perhaps it shouldn't come down to the idea that group A or B has to change to please the other. If someone's being truly obnoxious fandom's normally pretty good at calling them out for it (see your first point), but I think there's going to be a difference of opinion on whether the existance of reviews of stories or concrit is in fact obnoxious behaviour.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yes, EXACTLY. There is never going to be a consensus on what constitutes appropriately polite behavior, and trying to hold everyone to the same standard of conduct isn't going to make anyone happy. As I was trying to work through in the comments above, "Don't like, don't read" isn't a blank ticket to be an obnoxious asshole, but I think fandom would be a happier, more relaxed place if people would chill out a little bit and give everyone else some space to interact with fandom in their own style.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I DO want to say thanks for starting a really interesting discussion! I know people are arguing about it elsewhere, but it's getting really heated in some places, and I'm glad on your journal we can actually discuss it without people going ballistic! As you can tell, I'm interested in the question.

The outing? I hadn't heard about that at all and am shocked and horrified. And angry.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I really do try ... I like discussing this stuff, but I don't see any reason to do it in the form of an argument. (A heated debate is something totally different. *g*)

The outing is such a fundamental violation of netiquette on ANY part of the internet that I'm just boggled by it.

[parisntripfan.livejournal.com]

Well said.

Another issue is that are differing ideas as to what means to be "nice" or "civil" Does it mean to give only compliments - even if there are things wrong with the fic that could be fixed if the author was made aware of them? (And here I am talking about things like spelling mistakes, problems with grammar or a gapping plot hole.) Not everyone agrees on that.


I am not really one write about/mock what I consider badfic. (I may wonder about some the trends I see in fanfic and question what is up with it?) But it is not so much because I think it is mean - it is because doing so is a complete waste of time. There are other things I would rather be doing then reading stories I don't like so I have a hard time understand why someone else would want to waste spend their time doing just that. Now if someone where to ask me what I thought of a particular story I would tell them what I thought of it - and what I thought was wrong with it (and what was right with it).

And I really agree with your main point...I am a great believer in the idea that people should be free to say what they want. (at least within reason)

[springwoof.livejournal.com]

sorry to hear about your RL mess. But, hey, cool floors, eh?

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

The perennial concrit debate continues. It touches a very raw nerve with me. I was flamed publicly for a story I wrote, even though the flamer said she'd read only the first page or so. Then this flamer posted some rude things on her LJ about my story and about me personally. So, when I read the LJ stuff, I commented--nicely--on what she'd said. She banned me from her LJ and that was that.

Certainly everyone can say whatever he or she wants on their LJ. They have every right to ban people. However, defaming someone, insinuating that they have mental problems and so forth is really too much. Just because an individual can write horrid things about people on their LJ doesn't mean that they should. To do so is hurtful, to say the least, and, in the long run, it has a choking effect on fandom. Seriously, who wants to contribute to a fandom where they might get blasted out of the water?

I can't say that I love negative feedback, but what I do love is discussion of why the story's not working for someone or how characterizations or plot could be tighter. This is obviously much more productive for me as a writer than receiving an ad hominem attack. So, while no one ought to feel that being critical of a story is wrong, he or she should be willing to commit to a dialogue about it if an author wishes to have one. This is how I define "civility."

[kodiak-bear.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I really wish I had the time to keep up on the debates and meta, then other days, I just can't give a damn at all. But, I did see something about someone publishing fanfic writer's real life identities and that is just beyond the pale. Unless the person has said 'go for it' you're invading their privacy.

As far as the concrit goes, I'm not a 100% up to speed on it. I don't usually leave feedback with crit on stories. If I beta, I will, but otherwise I'm just some joe schmoe and I haven't been *asked* by the author for my input therefore, I don't give it.

But if I want to make comments on my journal about xx story and what happened and my opinion then it is my right as my journal is, wow, mine. :P So yeah, I agree with you.

[naye]

Great post, as usual.

I'm... still sorting out what I feel on all these issues. My LJ = my opinions seems to be a good rule of thumb, but there are still limits to what I think ought to be public (or posted at all, in the case of honestly offensive stuff).

However, it's clear that concrit is one of those very individual things. Some people take the "criticism" part of it as a terrible blow to their ego - others are grateful to get the "constructive" input. (Don't know if you've seen those two posts, so I thought I should point you in their direction! They're also fairly relevant in showing how concrit can be a really positive experience for someone. Unfortunately I think the negative experiences are often reflected in total withdrawal, so it's a little harder to find links...)

I guess the main reason I don't feel I can add anything much to this discussion is that I honestly don't know how I'd react if someone gave me unsolicited criticism. I'd feel like a hypocrite if I'd argued for one side and then found myself with a personal reaction that was totally different from that. Because, again - I wish it were only a matter of intellectual debate, but there are so many emotions involved, and I really think we need to respect that everyone can't be expected to handle either side of it (giving/taking positive/negative crit) in the same way.

And I think that in that, at least, we as fandom can create a more ... understanding environment? The same way a lot of fandom thinks its only right to warn for things in a story that might seriously upset someone. The real world doesn't do that - movies have ratings, books have nothing, and the creator is never going to tell you "you probably shouldn't read this if [subject] makes you uncomfortable".

Not sure how I'm thinking that would work with reviews, though, just musing on fandom as a social space, and how fanfic posting praxis already make it different from other places where people offer creative works and others react to them.

(And I'm posting here because I feel your LJ is a safe space to discuss topics without getting into heated arguments about them. Here, I'm allowed to work out what I really think about things, and it's something I'm very appreciative of!)

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Just a drive-by comment, because I'm still at work, but it really makes me feel good that you find my blog a safe space for this sort of discussion! I've really tried to make it that way -- that's what I *want* this place to be, and that just makes me feel very good. Thank you.

And thanks, also, for the links - I knew she'd revised the story but I hadn't read the revised version yet, and I had no idea ... that was very sweet of her!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Re: the concrit (the outing is just bad form, goes without saying) - ahh, this is one of those cases where my principles are conflicting with my sense of courtesy.

The original post, as given, was a nicely written explanation of my view of unsolicited concrit, and why it has no real place in amateur fanfic. I was annoyed when I read the comments and realized that the post was really addressing an entirely different issue, that of rec-reviews - as I said before, I agree that reviews are something that should be 'allowed,' critical or otherwise; I'd like to see more discourse about fandom in fandom.

But then, knowing what sparked the whole thing to begin with...in principle, I agree with the right to review as you see fit on your own journal. In practice, harshly reviewing the other stories in a 'thon you took part in, less than a month after the 'thon ends, is pretty tacky. (Especially when the only story you give a positive rating to is one written by a friend. I know that's not quite what was going on; but it's what it can look like. Especially when the main criticism for half the stories was that they were following the main, shipping theme of the comm, which is just...an odd complaint?)

Regarding the comments on that post, it especially disturbs me to read the responses of those I was siding with in principle - the way some people on the 'pro-critics' side were deriding any writer who is hurt by negative criticism. "Speshul snowflake" and "fragile butterfly soul" are two insults I saw being tossed around, and that's unfair. A pro author who can't take criticism is a figure of ridicule. But an amateur fanfic author, sharing a creative endeavor for no profit? Why should they be expected to be as thick-skinned as a pro? It bothers me that the pro-critic side, rather than acknowledging they might hurt feelings with their blunt honesty, wants to put all the blame for the hurt on the authors.

I also admit to being uncomfortable with certain types of negative reviews. It's one thing to give a qualified positive review - "I recommend reading this, even though I had issues with Ronon's characterization;" It's one thing to take a story rec'ed by everyone under the sun and say, "I know people love this, but I had serious issues with it." It's another thing to review a fic with no recs and only a handful of comments and say, "Yeah, as is obvious, this fic sucks, don't waste your time." It's shooting fish in a barrel; it might be being honest, but it's also being mean...

...The truth is, being mean can be fun. I love ripping bad movies apart - and I actually amuse myself on occasion with badfic, too. But I acknowledge that this is in part my bad side, my petty cruel side; I keep it to private communications because it's not something I want to be public about myself. And it bothers me that some members of the pro-critic side, even while they argue for honesty over 'niceness', don't want to acknowledge the truth that if they're not being nice, they're, well - not being nice, whatever their motives.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thinking about this whole thing has made me realize what a tempest in a teapot it really is, because everyone is going to keep right doing their own thing regardless of how other people feel about it. I was contemplating how silly it is for me to even be upset by lamardeuse's post, because it's not like she has any control over what I write! She might not like it, but it doesn't matter -- there's nothing she can do to stop me. And she's perfectly entitled to describe her idea of an ideal fannish environment, like you did in the last conversation we had about this. I guess it's at least partly a matter of presentation; I'd felt that yours was more of a "Wouldn't it be nice if..." where hers was more of a "Everyone who doesn't do this is wrong."

There was a really good post on this (http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/239518.html) at synecdochic's LJ in the last couple of days, and I loved these points especially:

11. An author's emotional reactions should not be privileged over a reader's reactions.

12. A reader's reactions should not be privileged over an author's emotional reactions.

Really, it's just a somewhat longer and more detailed way of saying "Be respectful of each other." But that first one ... that's what I feel like, sometimes: that my own right to even have an opinion is being quashed, and in order to get along in fandom I need to paste on a fake smile and pretend to enjoy things I don't like. Which is an exaggeration, of course, and very petty, but that's what it feels like. But, of course, the second point (above) is a necessary corollary, because there *is* a real live person on the other side of the computer screen, and readers sometimes forget that, too. You can't just go around being an asshole to people, calling them names, etc.

On the other hand ... to be blunt, if someone is offended by the very idea of having their work discussed, it *does* smack of "speshul snowflake"-ness to me. I can totally understand not wanting to have criticism or debate brought into your own space, and I can totally see being hurt and offended if people are being cruel and mocking, but if you put your work out there, other people WILL have opinions, and I'm not happy with the idea that expressing those opinions is inherently rude. Some people find it inconsiderate to air negative opinions (and certainly it's courteous to express them in polite language), but I also find it inconsiderate to expect people to read your work and then not discuss what they thought about it. In a way, what you're doing is putting forth your opinion on the show (in the form of fic) and then complaining about other people responding to what you said, unless they agree with you. And that's not precisely fair.

But I agree with you that a lot of people use "honesty" (or "It's my blog and I can post what I want to") as a shield for rudeness. I don't personally consider kyuuketsukirui's reviews to be an example of that, but I do agree that there's a lot of name-calling and general unpleasantness going on in this particular round of debate. It's not *just* the pro-crit people, though, which is sort of ironic -- I was struck by that in the lamardeuse discussion especially, because if you're going on record supporting improved standards for courtesy in fandom, you don't do your position much good by being discourteous to the other side ....

[trystings.livejournal.com]

[xparrot said:] But then, knowing what sparked the whole thing to begin with...in principle, I agree with the right to review as you see fit on your own journal. In practice, harshly reviewing the other stories in a 'thon you took part in, less than a month after the 'thon ends, is pretty tacky.

Thank you for putting that in words, because I've been thinking that for three days now, been reading everybody's thoughts on this, including the (now) locked posts and nobody mentioned that.

I absolutely agree that people are entitled to post whatever they want on their own LJ (within the bounds of the law) and of course that includes criticism. But in this particular case, the reviewer was disappointed in the quality of the event she had participated in and harshly criticized her teammates' fics to make that point. Sorry, but I find that a pretty uncool thing to do.

It doesn't mean that I agree with Lamardeuse's "call for civility", asking that people in fandom not criticize at all - even on their own LJ's. That's rushing into extremes.

Reviews serve a purpose and should be fun reads. But people should be conscious of what they review and how they review. The fanfic of a first time poster calls for a different approach than the fanfic of a seasoned fanfic author, and if you're not sure what type of person is on the receiving end, why not err on the side of caution?

[ariadne83]

Hmm, when it extends to harshly criticising your own team mates, just after the fact, I can see why people got upset. And it's slightly questionable, taking part in such a 'shippy fic fest when you're not necessarily all that interested in the pairing itself... I *really* missed some of those nuances

[ariadne83]

The thing that bugged me about all the criticism leveled at kyuuketsukirui (and I'm going to state outright that I don't know anyone involved personally) was that she's done the same thing for every fic fest she's ever had an interest in; McShep Match wasn't maliciously singled out, and people seem to be acting as if it was *is puzzled*
And as far as I know, it's not criminal to write a review - she stated quite clearly the types of things she was looking for, and how certain genres, while not bad in themselves, didn't meet her tastes... How is that controversial?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I actually don't have much direct criticism for her, because when looking at her lj I saw this was a standard thing for her to do, and she's not being deliberately malicious. But I do wonder at her motives for joining McShep Match to begin with, as she is a not a "shipper", does not appear to enjoy romance, and her major complaint with many of the fics is that the main point of the plot is to get John/Rodney together. As was the theme of the 'thon. The (mistaken) perception of malice comes in when she doesn't like almost any of the fic in the 'thon (even the fic she says she enjoyed well enough she refused to grant over a 2); it can appear like she joined McShep Match just to find stories to eviscerate. (That is not the case, I realize. But it can come across that way.)

floor varnish

[nebbyjen.livejournal.com]

Burn vanilla candles, somehow it helps get rid of the smell. My hubby is a polyurethane fool and is constatnly driving me nuts with one project after another.... the candles help with the headache smell.

Re: floor varnish

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the suggestion! I'll try it!

[flingslass.livejournal.com]

Do I sleep through all these things or am I just off with the pixies. I haven't heard anything about this (but then you're the first I hear these things from anyway :D)

I have polished floorboards too but they were that way when we moved in. Just be careful when running. I did an A over T once. Witnesses said it was the funniest thing they ever saw!

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Oh hell yeah, the floor is incredibly slippery and it has been ever since we moved in. I've done some really hilarious gymnastics when I was in a hurry.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

But the suggestion that other fen are being rude by having the type of discussions that they want to have, in their own space ... that's just completely ridiculous, to me.

While I agree with a lot of your post (and I'm glad you added the bit at the end making it clear you understand that posting something in your own space doesn't exempt you from criticism), I find this idea overly simplistic. Of course fen can be rude (or bigoted, or offensive, and any of a host of other things) by having the type of discussions they want to have in their own journals. If I posted a picture of another fan in my LJ and mocked her appearance, that would be "rude," despite it being the type of discussion I wanted to have in my own space. Or if I posted someone's real name or friendslocked information in my own space, or if I laughed at someone because someone they loved died, or any of a host of other things.

I'm with you on the reviewing argument, and I realize this is probably more the result of imprecise language than intent, but the "you can do no wrong in your personal journal" thing is a pretty common view, and it really doesn't hold up.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think "imprecise language" is a problem here, because I also got (fairly) called on this in another comment thread above. I didn't mean to imply that having the freedom to speak at will in one's own journal is a free pass from the consequences of that freedom, or that a person shouldn't behave like a decent human being just because they're in their own journal. Just because I'm a guest in your house doesn't mean that you can be rude to me with impunity or steal my stuff. But it's still your house and you're entitled to a certain amount of respect for your sovereignty because of that -- if this makes any sense? I'm still working out how I feel about this, too. This post was basically a knee-jerk reaction to the idea put forth by lamardeuse's comment thread, that I need to abide by their moral views on concrit in my own journalspace, and like all knee-jerks, it could probably have used more contemplation and maybe a bit more editing. *g*

[erda-3.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I've misunderstood the op on the so called concrit thing, but I really thought her point was that if you are on a team with people it is not polite to criticize your teammates who are clearly doing the best they can to contribute to the team effort. It had nothing to do with anyone's desire or right to write reviews in general.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I guess it's hard to tell what was going through someone's head when they wrote their thoughts down. One thing that responding to the comments on this post has made me realize is how much of my own reaction to it is based on things "below the surface", as it were -- the post is the tip of the iceberg, with a ton of other fannish interactions and thoughts and opinions driving it.

I got a very clear feeling from her post and the comments, however, that she *is* talking about critical reviews in general, not just in this specific instance. As the post is currently locked, I can't go back and check, but my reading of it was definitely that it was more about the criticizing than about the team-solidarity thing. There were a couple of people in the comments who brought up the question of team solidarity, but I don't remember it being part of the OP's stance.

However, YMMV as always.