Thinking about hurt/comfort

[sholio]

When rachelmanija was here, we talked about hurt/comfort a lot (as you do) and the special frustration of being emotionally engaged in something where the author is clearly not into the hurt/comfort aspects nearly as much as the reader (me). The Matt Scudder books are like that -- it's not that nothing bad ever happens to him, the books are in fact an endless spiral of bad things happening to him, but it's handled in a way that usually doesn't quite get to where I want it to get to. The author is clearly not into it in the same way as I, for one, am into it.

I was thinking about it again recently because I was reading a long fanfic in which the author was clearly Not Into It in a similar kind of way, and it made me think about what it is that gives that Not Into It feeling. It's not that h/c has (or at least it doesn't have to have) endless descriptions of injuries and tending wounds -- in fact, a lot of it doesn't really deal with the details at all. But what it does have is that there's some kind of emotional crux or catharsis associated with people getting hurt. They don't just get hurt. Even if the getting hurt isn't the point of the story, as it is in a lot of h/c fanfic, it still reads as important. It might be used as an excuse for one character to realize how much they care, or just to freak out about the other one getting hurt; it might be the catalyst for an emotional conversation. But basically characters being hurt, physically or emotionally, is flagged as "important" in the text.

And being as it's something that I'm into, this is why it can be so monumentally frustrating when you have the setup for it and not the follow-through, because it feels like there's something missing; the emotional importance/crux-point/follow-up isn't there. I guess a similar situation might be the way that characters having sex is usually important to a relationship, so it would be like getting the buildup for sex, and then the sex happens off-camera and nothing actually changes; the characters just get on with their lives.

Which you can totally do, obviously! It just depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell. It's not a bad writing decision; it's just a matter of narrative focus and what the person writing it is into. But in the same way that lack of romantic follow-through on a romantic setup is frustrating to people who are specifically engaged in the romance aspects of the story, I think the lack of emotional "beats" hitting on the h/c is what's frustrating for me in fiction that has all the setup but doesn't quite follow through on it. It's not that I expect or even necessarily want detailed descriptions of injuries and healing; it's that I want emotional catharsis, and you can even have something that would be satisfying from an h/c standpoint but not have it feel quite right if the emotional beats don't hit in the right way. And on the flip side, you can have stories that give that hurt/comforty feeling in which nothing much injurious actually even happens, or is really dealt with, if there's still some kind of emotional crux or catharsis surrounding whatever does happen.

Comments

[xparrot]

Oh I know this feeling SO WELL...reading something and even though the basic outline is what you want, it's not hitting the mark, because the writer didn't want the same things out of it, was not writing it for those reasons.

I find it interesting that while "romance" and "action" and "drama" are genres in standard fiction, as well as tropes that can appear in other genres, "h/c" is only tropes -- except in fanfic, where it's an established and common genre. But it's a genre that has no corresponding thing in regular fiction. You can't go to the h/c section of a bookstore; you'll never see a TV show advertised as "the h/c hit of the year!" (Even though for us fans of the genre, there are books or shows we might classify as such?) And it's not a term that's mainstream, even now. ("Angst" is likewise, but then angst and h/c are related...)

And yeah, an h/c story and a romance story have a similar overall emotional thrust, they're about characters coming together. H/c stories are about relationships more than characters (which is why whump and h/c are two different things to my mind; whump is about a character suffering and how they handle it; h/c is about a character suffering and how someone else handles it with them?)

--I could go on about this for another 10 paragraphs (I've deleted two tangents already ^^;) but yeah. Being into something and wanting the h/c and it only rarely delivers...argh! (and that's what fanfic's for...)

[sholio]

Noooo don't delete your tangents, give me all your tangents; we haven't had a good conversation about h/c things in ages~~~!

[xparrot]

Ahahahah I knooooow I've missed them! I've been having some great conversations with Naye and Frith about the subject -- one of these days we have to have a mini-con and just get all of us together to rave about this stuff! (I don't know rachelmanija but I get the impression I'd have fun talking to her! ^_^)

[sholio]

"h/c" is only tropes -- except in fanfic, where it's an established and common genre. But it's a genre that has no corresponding thing in regular fiction. You can't go to the h/c section of a bookstore; you'll never see a TV show advertised as "the h/c hit of the year!"

I know!! It's so weird to me that this is a thing which is well established in fanfic (and a lot of us loved before we knew there was a name for it; I was so delighted to find out this was a thing enough other people were into that it has a name!) but it's completely unknown as a thing outside of fanfic circles. I've only very occasionally even seen anyone who's not in fanfic-fandom talk about it (the Elfquest author occasionally does; in fact she was the first person that I ever saw talking about it as a thing, way back in the letters columns when I was a teenager ...).

But it makes it so hard to find original versions! I WISH there was a genre equivalent, the way you can go to the romance section and pick up any book and know you'll get a romance with an HEA, but you can't do that with h/c except in fandom ...


And yeah, an h/c story and a romance story have a similar overall emotional thrust, they're about characters coming together. H/c stories are about relationships more than characters (which is why whump and h/c are two different things to my mind; whump is about a character suffering and how they handle it; h/c is about a character suffering and how someone else handles it with them?)

ohhhhhh, that's a really good point about the difference between whump and h/c! They feel different, but I could never really quite define what the difference is. I do know I don't particularly care for the word whump but I've gradually come around to accepting that it's at least as widely recognized as h/c if not more so, especially in places like Tumblr that don't have the same fandom culture.

And there's also that post that was going around on Tumblr that points out h/c is a genre of catharsis -- anticipation and release. I know we've talked before about the similarities between romance and h/c, but I think it's reasonable to say that the emotional arcs are similar; in fact, I bet you could take the basic romance template and substitute h/c for sex and it would work just fine. In fact, we've both probably written that. XD

But yeah, h/c is very relationship-based (for me) ... so much so that I don't tend to really enjoy it (at least not nearly as much) if the relationship isn't one I'm emotionally invested in. Which is why I'm not nearly as interested in "lone character is rescued by people they don't know", or two people who actively dislike each other in an h/c situation, as I am in watching/reading about two characters who are already close going through trauma together.

... though as I typed that, I realized the exception is if the entire point is that trauma draws them closer. Going back to the anticipation-and-catharsis idea, the best h/c is between two characters who are starting to get close but haven't quite gotten all the way there yet, so there's a certain amount of tension between the emotions they're having and what they're comfortable displaying. Again, very similar to romance!

[xparrot]

--Well you asked for tangents? XDXDXD

Does every h/c fan have that moment of realization, the OH THERE'S A WORD FOR IT!!! Or maybe nowadays some of them find fandom early enough to have the word all along? I still remember so vividly finding that particular TOS zine anthology novel and reading it in ecstasy, realizing without a shadow of a doubt that I was not alone in liking This Thing, because there were stories that were JUST This Thing, no other plot stuff to worry about, and it was so amazing to me.

And yes if it were a more mainstream genre! Even if there weren't a section in the bookstore, if you could just ask "does this have h/c?" the way you can ask "does this have a HEA?" -- well, you can in fandom, and there's probably a reason why I don't read so much non-fanfic these days...

And there's also that post that was going around on Tumblr that points out h/c is a genre of catharsis -- anticipation and release. I know we've talked before about the similarities between romance and h/c, but I think it's reasonable to say that the emotional arcs are similar; in fact, I bet you could take the basic romance template and substitute h/c for sex and it would work just fine. In fact, we've both probably written that. XD

Haaaaaaaah oh yes (I did a fic recently that I've been wanting to write a post about, because it's taking a classic smut trope (mating heat) and using it entirely for h/c (the fic's Teen-rated, with no actual sex ^^;) and it ended up being a really interesting exercise for me on a lot of levels...)

But yes -- I've thought a lot about whump vs h/c -- especially as they are used interchangeably a lot, especially on Tumblr I've seen a lot of whump blogs that are actually totally about h/c? And then, I do like whump too sometimes -- visually especially; there are certain characters that I, um, aesthetically enjoy seeing bloody and in pain, whether or not anyone's there to comfort them. But it doesn't appeal to the same extent h/c does.

(--It's also funny because as I've gotten older especially, I've moved further from liking straight physical h/c, I am far more about the emotional side of it. My favorite type of hurt is altered mental states stuff -- feverish delirium, concussion, drugged.)

I have some unfocused thoughts about how a big part of both whump and h/c is vulnerability, a character rendered vulnerable in some way. But whump the character manages through inner strength, while h/c the character is dependent on someone else. (and often either reluctant to be, because their self-image is about strength/independence; and/or they don't believe that someone/a particular someone will be willing to take care of them...)

so much so that I don't tend to really enjoy it (at least not nearly as much) if the relationship isn't one I'm emotionally invested in.

Yes this! The best h/c is when it's characters who have some connection already, and the h/c is advancing their relationship in some way. It's not as satisfying when it's at the start of the relationship -- a lot of the interest to it is characters seeing different sides of the other (the comforter seeing the comfortee vulnerable; the comfortee seeing the comforter caring), while as if it's the first side they see, there's no contrast. Like starting a romance with the characters declaring "I love you" -- well okay, but where do they go from there?

(One of the tangents I deleted before was actually about h/c vs romance -- because h/c is sometimes seen as sort of an alternative to romance, an alternate way to achieve physical and emotional intimacy? But my current fandom I'm writing all my h/c in the context of an established romantic relationship, but the fic is still about the characters getting closer, developing that relationship that much deeper.)

[rachelmanija]

So true. I WISH there was a h/c genre. "The Punisher: Must-watch h/c TV!" "Dick Francis? Oh, his books are in the h/c section. And if you enjoy him, I'd also recommend Stephen King's The Drawing of the Three - it's got the same combination of exciting action sequences, an interesting milieu, tough competent guys going through hell and never giving up, and of course wall-to-wall h/c. Look for the "serious injuries/illness" sticker on the shelf."

[sholio]

Look for the "serious injuries/illness" sticker on the shelf.

Hahaha. In a perfectly world, right?!! It would be so nice if there was a shelf you could go to and find this kind of thing!

Actually, there's a surprising lack of even, say, recs lists for original fiction with h/c elements. It's pretty much entirely word of mouth from fellow interested people.

[xparrot]

...I haven't read Dick Francis since I was like 12 years old and went through all the books on my grandparents' shelves, and I don't actually remember anything about them except there was a lot with horse racing; but this does explain why I devoured them so avidly!

[lilacsigil]

Yeah, there's lots of books and shows where the h/c elements are present, but it's not h/c. I mean, medical dramas for example - they're illness/healing or injury/healing but rarely hurt/comfort! (Though weirdly they sometimes go right down the hurt/comfort part when the patient is one of the medical staff.)

And for a lot of writers the hurt part is there as an obstacle to the protagonist, not as a element in itself.

[sholio]

Ohhh yeah, really good point -- medical shows are a really great example of a genre where there is a huge focus on injury, illness, recovery, and healing, but they rarely actually feel like h/c! Except, like you said, when the patient is "one of us." Which I guess is a clear demonstration that it's not just about the hurt; the emotional component is also critical.

And for a lot of writers the hurt part is there as an obstacle to the protagonist, not as a element in itself.

Yeah, I think that's exactly what's going on in a lot of books/shows where I want more but the writer is blatantly uninterested in giving it to me. XD The hurt is for the character to have something to overcome, not to strengthen emotional ties to other characters. And a little corner of my heart is often going "but nooo I want mooooore."

I realize for people who kink on whump, that is the part they're in it for, though.

[lilacsigil]

I also like a particular kind of whump - where the protagonist gets whumped and they fight their way through - but not the kind where someone endlessly suffers, and almost never when it's a specific person hurting them. So there has to be an arc for whump for me to enjoy that too!

[sheron]

I do actually really like the 'character overcomes' whump! More thoughts later XD

ETA: I haven't managed to distill what it is that makes me enjoy whump specifically. For example I would call IM3 "whump" movie, because it's not really about h/c (in fact nobody is really around to comfort Tony in any way, even though he gets support from various people eventually, like Rhodey and Harley) but I love that movie. It appeals to my ID in a way something like, say, CA:TWS just doesn't. CA:TWS is a great movie, and much more h/c focused, because we've got people actually bonding over their troubles (i.e. Sam paying attention to Nat bleeding from the gunshot wound, all of them bonding over the Winter Soldier stuff, the hospital scene between Steve & Sam, etc). I'd conclude that we simply have our favourite characters and that trumps all, but it's more than that. In Iron Fist, for example, even though Colleen is my favourite character I don't really want to see her whumped? At all? But I'd be there for Danny whump, big time. So I have been turning this over in my head for a while, but I don't have a definitive answer for when 'whump' works for me.

As for in general, "character overcomes" type stories, I love them because to me they show the character's competence. I feel like, in h/c, if it's only h/c, the comfortee often doesn't get a moment to shine. They just flop around feeling bad, until the powerful comforter comes and helps them. I don't mean that this doesn't necessarily work for me, but if you've got a character, say, hallucinating, the fic is generally not likely to focus on their "normal" state of being competent beforehand, it will jump straight into h/c, whereas a whump fic by necessity would have them rescuing themselves from a lot of trouble, or surviving dire circumstances before any kind of comfort happens. In that case, I'd say whump would probably work a little more for me, unless I'm already super invested in the character dynamic. (Which is not to say h/c doesn't often have heroic moments, but it's almost like we never see the character's default, but only them in relation to other people and relationships? I need to think about this more)

I have to say, if I have to choose, for my favourite characters I'd want whump + h/c :D

[rachelmanija]

That's such a great example of a focus on injury/illness that's not about h/c.

It's kind of like how true crime isn't a murder mystery, even though it's often about mysterious murders.

[yalumesse]

I guess the more different ways there are to write a story, and the more widely the variety are used, the more you get different groups and sub-groups that focus on and then expect different things. Which is exactly what you just said, oops. I think it's the same with a lot of niche or tropey areas; I love fake relationship stories, but if they ever don't end with the characters getting together, I feel robbed, even if the story is objectively complete as, say, a buddy comedy where the strain of faking the relationship is the source of the lols. (Not that I've ever seen a fanfic like that, I'm thinking movies and telly, but still)

[sholio]

Oh yeah, totally. It's exactly that feeling-cheated aspect, where the setup was perfect for something you really wanted and then it doesn't go there, and it might quite legitimately not go there -- the story's fine, it's not an objective issue with the story itself, but you wanted the other thing, and it's incredibly frustrating not to get it.

[sartorias]

I recollect a purple mimeo zine back in the late sixties early seventies that was specifically about what we now would call whump and h/c focused on Spock. I think it was T-Negative (his blood type) but might have been a different zine--there were a lot of Spock zines. My earliest exposure, however, was the mid-sixties, when a friend admitted to writing Frodo and Sam stories, always about one or the other getting hurt and them taking care of each other. I mean she must have written several hundred thousand words of it--notebook after notebook, in teeny tiny handwriting.

I checked back in a few years later, and heard the term char tor (character torture) once Star Wars was a thing. I think the zines were again a combo of the two. I forget when I first heard h/c, but I do remember people were defining which type they liked, as in "I don't like h so much as c." Or, "I'm all about the h, but there has to be some c."

I've never set out to write it, but I've wondered from time to time if I have, by accident. Like, there's one in a series I've been working on for years in which brothers are enemies. The one in power chasing the other, who gets nailed by a third, and falls into brother's hands as a prisoner--who has to keep him alive. It's vital for both of them, engenders profound change in both, but I don't know if it will read as h/c.

Then there's another sequence that goes extremely dark--the darkest I've ever written--fter which the character's tightly knit gang bands together to keep one of them alive after the darkness. That might be h/c? Though for me the focus is the conversation right afterward. Again, game-changer.

So . . . enough boring on. Reading with interest, trying to grasp and understand.

[rachelmanija]

There's lots in The Change! ;)

[sartorias]

I remember some in Hostage, but I guess I don't see it unless it's really in-your-face.

Interesting discussion!

[sholio]

I think if it's something that you're specifically into as a thing, you'll find yourself noticing it, and if you're not you won't -- but it's not that there's anything wrong with that; lots of people aren't into it, as a particular thing! It's definitely a niche interest, even if it's a relatively common one. I think your work probably has more than you know; it's just that it's not something you're specifically tuned in to notice.

Now that you mention character torture, I think that was the early term for it in fandom; I've heard that. I don't remember when I first heard the term h/c -- probably early to mid 2000s.

[rachelmanija]

Matt Scudder vs. Dick Francis is a perfect example of that. Block is clearly not into h/c. Dick and Mary Francis really, really were.

[sholio]

YES. Or, like ... Punisher and Iron Fist are both clearly written by people who are into it. Luke Cage is not. And even though the show actually has quite a lot of awful stuff happening to Luke & co., it pulls back from committing on the follow-through in a way that can be monumentally frustrating.

[frith_in_thorns]

I feel like in fic I'm *only* interested in h/c as a genre. Which stresses me a bit sometimes because it feels like that's me being "weird", but then it has been pointed out to me that I don't have that reaction to people who only read fic for romance, or even only for porn.

(Relatedly, a friend who mostly writes porn recently wrote a very much more h/c focused fic and I told her to put the Hurt/Comfort tag on it so that people who were searching by the tag saw it. She was surprised people would search by that tag. Whereas when I go into a new fandom I will very often filter PURELY by that tag and then read everything that looks interesting! And a few other people popped up to say they do this too, so she did add the tag after that.)

I personally am into both the hurt and the comfort. But maybe in different ways? There are particular kinds of hurt that I am REALLY into, especially all the altered-state stuff that xparrot talks about below. And also the comfort I like is still a bit hurty, like when the person hasn't got anywhere near the recovery stage yet and is still pretty out of it but clinging to the support of the other person.

One thing I really like h/c for is for stoic characters and breaking all of their barriers down. This is one of the things it's especially good for in my current fandom, where Shen Wei is literally the worlds's worst communicator in all situations and the amount you have to break him to get him to be honest about his state of mind is... really quite impressive. I think people who write sex use that in the same way quite often as h/c writers to get to that place of completely unguarded intimacy. Which is really the culmination of h/c for me.

I always enjoy spotting the pro authors who are really into h/c. Lois Bujold is DEFINITELY one, and Seanan McGuire another.

[sholio]

Yeah, it's not the only thing I'm into but it's definitely something I gravitate strongly towards. But as you say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with only wanting that. There was someone I wrote for in an exchange who not only requested no gen, but no established relationships -- they are ONLY into get-together fic. And that's fine too! Everyone has their own tastes.

BE THE CHANGE ETC.

I personally am into both the hurt and the comfort. But maybe in different ways? There are particular kinds of hurt that I am REALLY into, especially all the altered-state stuff that xparrot talks about below. And also the comfort I like is still a bit hurty, like when the person hasn't got anywhere near the recovery stage yet and is still pretty out of it but clinging to the support of the other person.

Yeah, I agree with this! I love altered states, head injuries, hypothermia, fever, that kind of thing. And I am into the details on that. But it's most fun for me when either the other person is there already, or there's anticipation that there will be ... I can really enjoy the buildup, but I do want it to be buildup for someone coming in and making things better for them eventually.

Also, worry. Very very into the "worry" aspect. :D

I always enjoy spotting the pro authors who are really into h/c. Lois Bujold is DEFINITELY one, and Seanan McGuire another.

Ahahaha, I KNOW right?! I agree about Bujold. And Dick Francis is mentioned above. Barbara Hambly, too.

[brightknightie]

Perhaps somewhere in a related vicinity:

I'm on the penultimate novel of the "Chronicles of Brother Caedfael" mysteries from the '80s. They are wonderful and I'm trying to put off suffering the story universe closing on me...

One thing that has caught my attention several times in this second-to-last book, but has been prominent throughout the series, something that is very satisfying and striking for me as a reader but also is clearly where the author's head is and where she believes her characters would have been:

...a focus on, "Did anyone die?" There's a powerful immediacy and importance in foregrounding that question every single time there's a battle, an accident, a disaster, a crime. It's the first concern, the main concern, the "we can't afford to lose a single human life, no, not even one on the far margins of our society (except maybe that one guy... no, not even him!)." It's always the first question asked by any responsible, mature character, whether secular or clerical, local or distant. Life is cheap in the twelfth century, is one way of putting it; but the same calculation adds it up as infinitely precious.

[slhuang]

Oh, I feel this. Sometimes I feel like a piece of media I like gives me this great moment or scene but it's like, the smalllllllest little drip of h/c compared to what I want it to be and I'm like, "noooo MORE!"

(I suppose that's what fic is for.)

But I don't think I'd enjoy writing novels if I couldn't h/c the hell out of them.