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*gets can opener, opens can of worms*
And now that I've got the crossposter set up ... how about some meta?
So. Shipping. What is it to you? I suppose I mean, what do you mean when you say that you ship characters A & B?
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy? That you think they should be together in canon? That you can't stand the thought of A with anyone other than B? That you feel they are obviously destined for each other and anyone who thinks differently is wrong?
I've been thinking about this lately, because since I stopped reading John/Rodney (long story, please don't take this as a slam against the pairing; I just don't think it's for me anymore, for a variety of reasons), I've been reading a considerably more diverse array of pairings. Gen has always been where my heart is, but I also like to read a pairing fic here and there ... sometimes to have more to read, sometimes just because I want variety, sometimes because the story looked good and there's a pairing (or twelve) in it. And it's interesting to see what a variety of interpretations of canon you get in different shippy areas of fandom, as well as the various ways that writers choose to explain or establish the pairing. (I'm using "shipping" here to cover romances involving characters of any gender or, for that matter, any number of participants -- OT3s and OT4s included. If you don't use the word that way, I'd be interested to hear about that, too!)
I don't consider myself a shipper of any of the couples I write in SGA. I mean, I've written Rodney/Teyla for a couple of years now, but I definitely wouldn't say that I ship them (not only because they're both with other people in canon, though that's part of it, but I can't in a million years imagine them actually going for each other -- even though I find them cute as a button and like to write it). Perhaps the closest I come to shipping anyone is Rodney/Jennifer, mostly because a) they're canon, so I feel like I have to at least acknowledge the pairing in anything I write past early season five, and b) so many writers break them up that I feel rather protective of them. But I don't think I would have paired off the characters if the relationship didn't exist in canon, and I don't really feel the need to give them a relationship in AUs unless it fits with the plot.
But it's not that I never ship a couple, because I ship Roy/Riza in FMA like a crazy thing. I certainly won't be heartbroken if they don't become an official couple in the manga, but I would be very sad if one of them dies or -- and this, I guess, is where I think I tip over into active shipping -- if one of them pairs off with someone else. For most shows, I can read almost any pairing (breaking up canon couples is about the only thing that I have trouble with) but with Roy/Riza, I can't really enjoy pairing fic that pairs them with someone else. (Which is a problem, since so much of what's out there is Roy/Ed.)
In SGA, I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated by how different the different segments of fandom are -- in their tropes and characterization markers and just generally how they write the characters and view the source canon. Obviously there's individual variation within each shipping faction as well (and gen, too) but there's also a certain sameness to the way the characters are usually written, and the kinds of stories that seem to be popular. I suspect this probably happens in any fandom -- it's certainly been true of all the ones I've been in, at least the ones where I've been active enough and multi-shippish enough to see more than one side of it.
Anyway! Because I don't usually think in terms of couples, I'm really curious to hear from people who do gravitate towards couples (ships, pairings, OT3s/OT4s, whatever) to know how you relate to the couples you read and write about, especially when they aren't an established couple in canon (which nearly all of "my" couples in the past have been).
Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
This entry is also posted at http://friendshipper.dreamwidth.org/257078.html with
comments.
So. Shipping. What is it to you? I suppose I mean, what do you mean when you say that you ship characters A & B?
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy? That you think they should be together in canon? That you can't stand the thought of A with anyone other than B? That you feel they are obviously destined for each other and anyone who thinks differently is wrong?
I've been thinking about this lately, because since I stopped reading John/Rodney (long story, please don't take this as a slam against the pairing; I just don't think it's for me anymore, for a variety of reasons), I've been reading a considerably more diverse array of pairings. Gen has always been where my heart is, but I also like to read a pairing fic here and there ... sometimes to have more to read, sometimes just because I want variety, sometimes because the story looked good and there's a pairing (or twelve) in it. And it's interesting to see what a variety of interpretations of canon you get in different shippy areas of fandom, as well as the various ways that writers choose to explain or establish the pairing. (I'm using "shipping" here to cover romances involving characters of any gender or, for that matter, any number of participants -- OT3s and OT4s included. If you don't use the word that way, I'd be interested to hear about that, too!)
I don't consider myself a shipper of any of the couples I write in SGA. I mean, I've written Rodney/Teyla for a couple of years now, but I definitely wouldn't say that I ship them (not only because they're both with other people in canon, though that's part of it, but I can't in a million years imagine them actually going for each other -- even though I find them cute as a button and like to write it). Perhaps the closest I come to shipping anyone is Rodney/Jennifer, mostly because a) they're canon, so I feel like I have to at least acknowledge the pairing in anything I write past early season five, and b) so many writers break them up that I feel rather protective of them. But I don't think I would have paired off the characters if the relationship didn't exist in canon, and I don't really feel the need to give them a relationship in AUs unless it fits with the plot.
But it's not that I never ship a couple, because I ship Roy/Riza in FMA like a crazy thing. I certainly won't be heartbroken if they don't become an official couple in the manga, but I would be very sad if one of them dies or -- and this, I guess, is where I think I tip over into active shipping -- if one of them pairs off with someone else. For most shows, I can read almost any pairing (breaking up canon couples is about the only thing that I have trouble with) but with Roy/Riza, I can't really enjoy pairing fic that pairs them with someone else. (Which is a problem, since so much of what's out there is Roy/Ed.)
In SGA, I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated by how different the different segments of fandom are -- in their tropes and characterization markers and just generally how they write the characters and view the source canon. Obviously there's individual variation within each shipping faction as well (and gen, too) but there's also a certain sameness to the way the characters are usually written, and the kinds of stories that seem to be popular. I suspect this probably happens in any fandom -- it's certainly been true of all the ones I've been in, at least the ones where I've been active enough and multi-shippish enough to see more than one side of it.
Anyway! Because I don't usually think in terms of couples, I'm really curious to hear from people who do gravitate towards couples (ships, pairings, OT3s/OT4s, whatever) to know how you relate to the couples you read and write about, especially when they aren't an established couple in canon (which nearly all of "my" couples in the past have been).
Is there a difference for you between "shipping" a pairing vs. merely reading and writing about them, or is it pretty much the same thing?
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
This entry is also posted at http://friendshipper.dreamwidth.org/257078.html with
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I have some thoughts..... I must collect and organize them, but I'll be back. :)
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When I "ship" a pairing or moresome, it's usually because I can really see them working, at least if the circumstances allow it. I like to think of what would be going on "behind the scenes" of canon to get them to work together and, nine times out of ten, that is likely to be the foundation of anything I write with that pairing in it.
In all honesty, most of my pairings would be considered "non-canon" but, then again, that may be largely due to the fact that the canon for the fandoms I write in tend towards single het couples, and my writing does not. I prefer writing slash or moresomes if anything other than gen, but rarely anything explicit, and read mainly the same. I've found there seems to be certain tropes with each pairing and that they tend to annoy me after a while, so I try to switch things up if at all possible.
I've noticed slash fics tend to stress some of the stronger personality traits of the characters, and het fics tend to stress some of the more emotional side of things. Unfortunately, in my eyes at least, a lot of het writers tend to soften things up just a bit too much for my tastes and things start to seem out of character. It's probably just how I prefer to see the characters, and very likely a lot of het writers think the same about slash or moresome writers. I think it just comes down to how we see them and what we prefer, and that preference might change over time.
I try to keep the characterizations as close as possible whether I am writing gen or a certain pairing. I see the characters in a certain way, and tend to write them as such with the possible exception of the characters now being horny enough to do something about it. *g* If there are changes in personality, it might come down to trying to stress that character A sees these traits in character B that may or may not be highlighted in canon, but that would be a reason for why it would work for them to get together, if that makes any sense.
Rambly post is rambly, so I'll stop before I bore you to death now. :)
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However, I'm not a McKeller fan, and get annoyed when the fandom (not you, others) imply that it's because McSheppers only want to see them together. I thought Rodney and Katie were cute (not that they would have ever worked), and in that fifth season ep with the female team that got killed off, I thought the doctor that was 'crushing' on Carson would have been cute with Rodney. I recognize there's an abundance of McShep in fandom and get that can be annoying for people who don't like to read it, but...some people get so bitter about it. I don't personally like reading other relationships, but I just skip them.
This isn't saying YOU'RE being bitter about it, just something i've noticed in fandom.
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"OTP", for me, is shipping a pairing exclusively - you don't want to see them broken up and you don't want them paired with other chars. The most basic definition of OTP I know of is that you're happy to see the chars together as a pairing, and unhappy if they're not together. While as when you ship chars, you're happy if you see them together, but you might or might not care about whether they're not together otherwise. I'd say the way you describe your shipping of Roy/Riza sounds like OTPing to me (with the understanding that you don't think of yourself as an OTPer!)
Me personally, I tend not to ship unless I'm OTPing, with a few exceptions; once I get invested enough in a pairing to actually care about it, I tend not to want to see it otherwise. I don't get frustrated with other fans who don't see it - to each their own, and we all have our own buttons and reasons why pairings do or don't work for us - but I will get annoyed with/depressed by canons which actively break up my preferred pairings. I'm usually more sanguine about canons which remain neutral on them - as long as the canon doesn't actually permanently divide my OTP, I tend not to mind dalliances.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
Interesting question. When I get into an OTP, I tend to view canon through that lens, focusing on the particular moments that further show how well-suited the chars are for one another; and likewise I will seek explanations or resolution for those areas where the chars do clash. And when I fic, I write to those interpretations of the chars, but I don't think of it as "tweaking" the canon personalities, so much as writing the variants on the chars that I most enjoy watching. But then, that's how I write all fic; I don't think there's any such thing as an absolute true canonical personality for a character. (For instance, in nearly any show, there will be some episodes which I believe are better depictions of certain chars than other eps, and there will usually be some eps in which I believe a char or chars act OOC; canon itself isn't always true to its chars!) I write the chars that I believe I'm watching, or that I wish I were watching.
This tends not to change whether I'm writing gen or pairing fic, or writing different pairings; I tend to have a preferred reading on a char and will stick to that reading, even though aspects of their personality might change depending on what circumstances I'm writing them in.
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I think this is one of the things I was wondering about the most, because this is where I tend to feel the most separated from shipper-fandom. I write and read pairings, but usually, unless the characters are an established couple, I don't really see one possibility as being much more likely than another. And yet, I see a lot of meta in ship-fandom regarding the characters' suitability for each other, or other characters' unsuitability, which makes me wonder how people tend to think of the canonicity aspect of it. (With, of course, the caveat that all fans are different ...)
I've noticed slash fics tend to stress some of the stronger personality traits of the characters, and het fics tend to stress some of the more emotional side of things.
I think you're right! Since I've been reading so much slash the last few years compared to the amount of het I read, it's really startling to rediscover just exactly how much curtainfic and babyfic and, like you said, soft fic there is for het pairings. I think you're right, it is very much a preference thing, and perhaps certain kinds of writers are more drawn to slash than het pairings, or vice versa.
If there are changes in personality, it might come down to trying to stress that character A sees these traits in character B that may or may not be highlighted in canon...
Oh, that's a very interesting point!
You're not boring me at all; I find this quite fascinating. :)
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Now that I have written this, I think maybe you're looking more more for responses from the writer side? In that case I apologize, and apologize again if I went too far off on a tangent that you weren't intending. :(
I struggle with the whole shipping thing myself, because I'm never quite sure how to classify myself, or to describe where I'm at with the whole shipping thing. I do like some romance or shipping in most of the shows I watch, so I do sometimes playfully call myself a shipper, but...I don't think I really ship the way I see most people ship. I don't have OTPs, and I don't have a particular need to see my couple "get together" on screen. I'm not sure why that is. Even though I enjoy the ship it's not my central reason for watching. So I guess I would more closely come under your first definition than any of the others - there are couples that I just really like their relationship-maybe some would call it chemistry-on screen, and I think they work well together. But usually (and this happened a lot in the BtVS 'verse) when the writers break the couple up and then get them together with other people, I like them in the new relationships just as well. So I have no ship loyalty whatsoever.
I do get into non-canon pairings occasionally. I think I'm more of a canon shipper (if indeed I can be called a shipper at all) than not, but every so often certain non-canon possibilities will strike my fancy. John/Vala, Rodney/Teyla, Sam/Cam, Faith/Wesley...those are all non-canon ships that I've read fic for. (I think you're to blame for getting me into Rodney/Teyla ;))
It's hard to know how to answer the question about reading fic though because I actually have a hard time finding ship fic I like, even for pairings I enjoy. It's actually easier I think for me to read a non-canon pairing than to read a canon pairing, because when I read a canon-pairing fic, a lot of times the characters feel off to me. Whereas I'm making a certain mental adjustment going into a non-canon pairing, and I don't have quite the same expectations. I don't know if that makes sense or not.
And I think I should stop rambling there. :S
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So, shipping, when I have done it, has been when there wasn't a canon base, but, to answer your first question, I *do* think it needs to be canonically plausible. So, it could happen. (Of course, theoretically, anything can happen, but if two characters never interact on that sort of level, I have a hard time shipping them. Rodney/Teyla is a perfect example. I can't read it, because I can't see it happening. But Rodney/Sam, I could see, at least until Rodney/Jennifer).
As for your other questions: "If you start out writing a non-canon pairing...do you find yourself...getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way:...it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?" The latter, when it comes to fanon. If it's canon, I don't get frustrated by it, just sad. So, when I wrote M7, I often shipped Ezra/Inez. They had a relationship on screen, but, other than some looks when they first met, they never hooked up. I thought they were a bit of fire and ice, so I got a kick out of putting them together--more for the humor than anything else. But she was more closely paired with a different character on screen (though they never really hooked up either), and that one was far more explored in fic. Doesn't bother me in the least. Just because I like writing them my way, doesn't mean I think everyone else should see them that way.
Of course, it helps that the show only lasted a year on screen, so I never had to fight being "jossed" (as they say) by canon. That probably would kill my ship. There really is a difference for me about canon v. fanon. I can laugh off fanon. Canon, though, that's hard to ignore, and I usually find I don't. If Rodney and Jennifer had broken up on screen, I would have written them that way in my fics.
"Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple....?" I try to write as close to canon as I can. If I do tweaks, I don't do it consciously, but I think, anytime you write someone else's character, you're adding your own tweaks, whether your shipping them, writing gen, or any other genre. It's pretty much impossible not to. So...if I was doing *more* of that when I shipped my characters, I didn't notice.
As for the last question, I find I can't write more than one pairing. The reason is, I write linearly. I always have. I can't switch pairings unless I'm switching universes, writing an "AU" so to speak. Similarly, once we were in Season 5, I couldn't write Season 1 SGA. And even in an AU, I find it hard. I find it impressive that people can do that so plausibly. I just don't have that talent, and I'm jealous of those who can.
Last, and I don't know if this was the main question, but if you initially asked, why do I ship? Because it's fun. When I shipped Ezra/Inez, I found I could write layers of their personalities I'd never touched before (and that it could generate a laugh or two, which I liked). It's just another way to develop character, because, let's face it, we all change in the face of romance/love, and it's fun to imagine characters compromising their decisions in the same way it happens in real life. But I don't do it to make them mooshy, or because I thought they should be together in canon (though, lord knows, when fanon you create becomes canon, it is awesome), but simply because, yes, I thought they'd be cute together and it was fun to write. But, once I'd shipped them in my personal fanon, I couldn't then ship them with anyone else. So, it has its benefits and its drawbacks.
That's a long answer. Sorry about that.
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I've read shit-tons of Sam/Vala fic, even though I don't really ship them at all. I both ship and read Sam/Janet and Sam/Keller. I read Sam/Vala because gay!Sam makes me happy like a very happy thing. So there's a draw there. But I don't seek it out because it's Sam/Vala, it's because of gay!Sam. The others, I seek out because of the pairing.
Outside of what fic you seek, I think it also has to do with how deeply convicted you are that your pairing would be a good idea/the best idea/the only possible idea. I've read and enjoyed Sam/Jack fic. I don't ship it, though, because I don't personally think they'd be a good idea. I can still like the fic, but thinking a pairing to be a good idea is usually a big part of shipping.
I can read and enjoy fic about couples I don't ship together. Even if I don't think they're canon-plausible, I can like it if it's well written.
Re: canon, I don't know that I think canon pairings can't be shipped, I just think it's less common. With canon romance to work with and around, there can be less avenues to play with. OTOH, the fights over Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel indicate that people do ship those pairings quite fiercely.
So I think it's possible to ship canon pairings. But I never, ever do it, because I've yet to meet a showrunner who I didn't think would fuck my ships up beyond recognition. I'll keep them safe in my sandbox, myself.
I can bend every little bit of (supposedly) platonic canon to fit the ship I'm in at the time, then bend it back when I'm writing a contradictory pairing. Subtext can be teased out or left alone at will. I don't need anyone else to see it, although it's nice if they do. I don't even really insist that there's even anything there, except insofar as my seeing it there makes it there.
Sorry for the babbling. I'd never really thought about any of this before.
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It took me a long while to figure out that I vaguely ship, but pretty much only pairings/groupings that involve Rodney McKay.
I came into the fandom via McShep fics, so those have never seemed strange to me. I've tried reading all sorts of other pairings and groupings, and so long as the writing makes it make sense, I can buy some and like them (Rodney with John, with Ronon, with Teyla, with the team, with Sam, with Radek; the occasional Lorne/Parrish; if in the background, John/Ronon or Elizabeth/Steven Caldwell; a few others); I can buy some but not care for them myself (most other pairings, especially John with not-Rodney-not-Ronon); and I just can't buy others, regardless of canonicity (Rodney/Katie, Rodney/Jennifer, Teyla/Michael, Rodney/Todd, John/David Parrish). That said, I've read and enjoyed stories with pairings I didn't otherwise buy because the writer really made it work. I've written stories with Rodney & Jennifer still together or politely broken up, depending on the nature of the story. I don't really get particularly attached to pairings/groupings, but I do have a very strong resistance to certain pairings/groupings.
Outside SGA, I'm happy with Wash/Zoe but don't really care about most other pairings in Firefly. I don't ship the Doctor with anyone, ever; I'm happy for Jack to get as much action as he pleases, but I mostly don't want to see the companions up to much (especially with the Doctor), though I'm undecided as yet about Amy/Rory, and I want Sarah Jane to have someone romantically, since she seems to want that. The whole will-they-won't-they of Chuck/Sarah just annoys me, and I'm happy that seems to be settling down (and how cute are Ellie and Awesome?). In any of those, I can read ships that don't fit those guidelines, but I'm a tough audience. (No, I do not buy any scenario that has Awesome cheating on Ellie, kthxbye.)
Regardless of the pairing/grouping, I usually want an actual plot, humor, or character development. Schmoop!fic nauseates me (which is why John/Elizabeth came to be the first pairing I automatically skipped new postings for; I used to read everything, but all I ever got from J/E fics was fluffy domesticity or babyfic) and I have no interest at all in PWP.
And I'm just as happy with no romantic/sexual relationships at all. Give me a good genfic with strong emotional attachments, and I'm delighted. Nakama is my true ship, I think.
ETA: Argh, left out a big point. I try to write characters as close to canon as I can, but as others have noted, I'm playing up certain characteristics and down others depending on the story. I think the character's reactions depend on the scenario, and while I won't believe just anything about a character, I'm flexible about interpretations to a reasonable extent. And I know the showrunners would probably think I don't write a canon Rodney; I cannot write him as bumbling, clownish, and oblivious as they sporadically write him. Part of that is that he's a fortyish man who is extremely accomplished in multiple fields; part is that I've overcome a staggering amount of that kind of social obliviousness myself and can't put myself back in that mental space, of someone that completely unaware and unexamined. (And then the show has him point out his own character flaws, meaning he is aware of them, which means they don't write him consistently on that, either. Not that people are always perfectly consistent minute-to-minute anyway ... which gives both them and fic-writers room to play.)
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I rarely read pairings I don't ship, and I don't write that at all, but the difference is: shipping = I want these people to be together (because something about their dynamic just clicks for me); merely reading = I could see these people together, but I don't care whether they are or not.
Do you need to consider a pairing canonically plausible in order to write (or read) them, or do you just need to be able to sell yourself on the pairing for one specific story or one specific set of circumstances?
For writing, it definitely needs to be canonically plausible; for reading, I'll occasionally read pairings I wouldn't consider plausible because they bring out something in one of the characters that I like to read about.
If you start out writing a non-canon pairing (or just hoping that two appealing characters get together in canon), do you find yourself seeing it as more and more canonically plausible as time goes along, and getting frustrated with people who don't see it? Or does it work the other way: you have the couple safe in your shippy heart, so it doesn't matter if other people and even canon don't agree?
My shipping isn't affected by other people's opinions or interpretations; if something speaks to me, it speaks to me. But I wouldn't go so far as to say I never get frustrated. It is frustrating to be alone with your preference, no matter what it might be.
Do you usually consider that you're writing the characters as close to canon as you know how, or do you consciously make little tweaks to their canon personalities to make them fit better as a couple -- or play up certain aspects of their characters, play down other aspects, things like that?
As close to canon as I can, for the most part. The characterisation needs to ring true for me, except in rare circumstances when I'll write something totally self-indulgent that's designed to hit one of my kinks. (That rarely ends up posted or even fully finished, though.)
If you write more than one pairing (or shippy + gen versions of the same characters), do you find that your characterization of the same individuals changes when you switch pairings?
No. Or rather, different pairings may bring different aspects of a character to the foreground, but all those aspects are still present in that character at all times, if that makes any sense. :)
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I think one of the things I've really been enjoying about reading a variety of pairings is the many different takes on the characters. Among other things, McKay/Sheppard was starting to feel very self-similar to me; the stories were all working from a very similar view of the characters and a small set of tropes. I don't think there's any pairing that can't be sold by a sufficiently clever take on it (though admittedly there are quite a few that I don't have any interest in ... like Carson/anybody *g*).
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As you already know about me, it's friendships that I get fixated on ... and not even always close friendships; I think I was (at the time) every bit as invested in Vegeta/Goku in DBZ as I am in John and Rodney in SGA, and theirs was a weird and thorny relationship with at least as much hate and resentment as affection.
Like we've discussed in the past, I often find that a "lovers" reading of the characters interferes with my preferred reading of them as friends. Or at least, it's not how I'm fondest of seeing them. I think that for me, it's much easier for me to accept and even (mildly) ship a pairing who aren't my favorite platonic character relationship on the show, because that way the friendship can stay how it is. Again, DBZ is a good example, where I loved Bulma/Vegeta and really enjoyed both the Bulma/Goku and Goku/Vegeta relationships as platonic. As a platonic relationship, though, there's not really a whole lot to B/V ... I can't really see them as friends if they weren't romantically involved. But there are definitely characters for whom their friendship is an important element of the romance for me ... I really like (canon) relationships in which the characters bond intellectually and then progress to a romantic relationship in due course. "Nerds in love" is really a big button for me! But not so much if I get invested in the friendship as a friendship and then it turns romantic ...
In short: I am contradictory. XD
Me personally, I tend not to ship unless I'm OTPing, with a few exceptions; once I get invested enough in a pairing to actually care about it, I tend not to want to see it otherwise. I don't get frustrated with other fans who don't see it - to each their own, and we all have our own buttons and reasons why pairings do or don't work for us - but I will get annoyed with/depressed by canons which actively break up my preferred pairings.
That makes sense to me! (And I can see how it relates to SGA. *g*)
In my case, my own canon-whorish tendencies are usually enough to overcome any antipathy that I may have had to the couple during the getting-together stage. I write from canon, I always have; and while I was kind of annoyed that writing Rodney/Teyla suddenly got exponentially harder right at the time that I got into the pairing, it wasn't a huge problem for me, but just required a mental adjustment and a willingness to work with AU.
Having said that, I tend to struggle with a gut-level dislike of seeing canon couples broken up in fandom, regardless of my feelings on the original couple -- well, okay, that requires a few caveats: taking a canon couple and separating them in order to explore both characters and take them down different roads ... I kind of love that, even if I liked the couple as they were. But breaking up a couple to pair one of characters off with someone else often gets my hackles up, especially since the character who gets the short end of the stick is usually the girl. This is the big problem I have with the micro-fandom for the Georgette Heyer book The Foundling. In the book, there's a couple -- a shy bookish girl, and her quiet bookish husband -- and then there's the husband's best friend. The fandom tends to be pretty much all about pairing off the husband and best friend, leaving poor Harriet, whom I love, out in the cold.
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And when I fic, I write to those interpretations of the chars, but I don't think of it as "tweaking" the canon personalities, so much as writing the variants on the chars that I most enjoy watching. But then, that's how I write all fic; I don't think there's any such thing as an absolute true canonical personality for a character. (For instance, in nearly any show, there will be some episodes which I believe are better depictions of certain chars than other eps, and there will usually be some eps in which I believe a char or chars act OOC; canon itself isn't always true to its chars!) I write the chars that I believe I'm watching, or that I wish I were watching.
*nods* SGA gives me fits, wrestling with this. Some characters are all over the map, and then there are those like Elizabeth where you can see what they were obviously aiming for, but they missed by a country mile -- do you write the character as she was probably intended to be (a brilliant, level-headed leader and diplomat) or as she actually appeared in canon, which ... wasn't? Nrrrrgh.
And I think we've also discussed in the past how much harder it is to write for a canon that has tighter writing, where the characters have a strong, consistent arc and there's nothing to explain away in fic. From a reader/viewer perspective, I really love it ... but it leaves little to work with in fic!
I tend to have a preferred reading on a char and will stick to that reading, even though aspects of their personality might change depending on what circumstances I'm writing them in.
I think I'm becoming more aware lately that I don't always stick to a single reading of a character and, in fact, have been deliberately experimenting with more diverse readings. I think this is most noticeable in those cases where I can't really figure out the character or character relationship in canon, so I write them different ways in order to explore the aspects of the dynamic that puzzle me. (I've been doing it a lot lately with Rodney and Ronon, because I swing back and forth between "they hate each other" and "there's affection hidden under the bickering", but how I write them really depends on where I stand on any given day ...)
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...yeah. I can't deny it, there's some bitterness and resentment that's built up over the years. And while I'm obviously biased in one direction, I've seen a wide spectrum of reasons for anti-McShep sentiment. The fans I interact with try to keep their meta quiet or behind flock, however, and out of their stories as much as possible. In that, we are kinder than others--or just more wary of fandom landing on our heads. :P
I don't think there's any pairing that can't be sold by a sufficiently clever take on it (though admittedly there are quite a few that I don't have any interest in ... like Carson/anybody *g*).
I have no interest in Carson/anybody either, but now that I've replaced Carson with Carolyn Lam in my Brightest Heaven AU, I'm realising how easy it is to ship "Carson"--that is, his role, the actions he's taken in canon--with a variety of characters. I've accepted the Jeannie/Carolyn subtext (McKay/Carson), I realise that Carolyn/Ronon would make so much sense (Ronon's gratitude to Carson, taken to the next level), Carolyn/Elizabeth also works (Weir turns to Carson quite a bit in early S1), Carolyn/Teyla (Carson helps the Athosians a lot), etc. There are so many possibilities!
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What I like in OTPs is all over the place - sometimes they're partners in every sense of the word (like Ban & Ginji or Mulder & Scully) or best friends (like John & Rodney); sometimes they're more romantically based (like Buffy & Angel) and sometimes they're simply bound by destiny like it or not (Clark & Lex). In any case, sexual/romantic attraction is never the primary bonding element.
Actually, I'm weird in my OTPing compared to most OTP fans that I know of, in that monogamy is pretty much never a requisite for my OTPs. I want the chars to have a unique emotional connection, but I tend not to be bothered by casual dating/sleeping around, if the chars seem suited to it. And I also default to OT3/4/etc really easily - it tends to be my solution for a lot of love triangles. I've never read The Foundling but just from what you said, they could very likely end up as an OT3. (This is maybe odd because the few threesomes I've known IRL all ended messily, it's not a stable relationship dynamic for most people. But the happily ever afters I like to imagine rarely have anything to do with reality anyway :P)
...but then I'm also weird in that I often will get fascinated by platonic relationships happening in the context of an OTP - like in Saiyuki, Gojyo/Hakkai was my absolute OTP, and Sanzo/Goku was nearly as strong; but I loved Gojyo & Sanzo's belligerent dynamic. And then in SGA, for all I OTPed John/Rodney I got really interested in Rodney & Teyla's (canonically almost non-existent) friendship. (For that matter, in SGA, no matter how hard I OTPed McShep, I would've been thrilled if the canon had ever gone Sam/Rodney. I adore them as a couple even full well knowing they don't really work as one...)
...In conclusion, I am in fact almost as bad at being an OTP fan as I am at being a slash fan! :P
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Hmm. Thinking about it, it's a little more complicated for me as well. It's sort of like...I have a particular character in my head, definitely; but I can interpret them in different ways, depending. This happened a lot when I wrote Smallville, as I had a bunch of different interpretations of Lex (as did the fic; he would be written from utter woobie to arch-villain-with-touch-of-angst and every flavor in between, and I could love pretty much any take as long as it was well-written enough; and then, considering I was watching JLU at the same time, canon itself had vastly different Lexes!) And yet in my head they were all variations on the same innate char - almost like versions from different timelines?
But it's rare for me to write contradictory readings of a char or relationship - what you describe with swinging back and forth about how you write Rodney & Ronon, I don't think I could do that, unless I actually changed my mind about the nature of their relationship?
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*laughs* Oops ...
I tend to be that way with canon couples as well ... it's pretty uncommon for me to really object to a couple once they're a reality onscreen. I'm sure there have been exceptions, but I'm drawing a blank trying to think of any. Usually, what bothers me and tends to put me off a couple is unresolved UST; once they actually get over themselves and get together, I'm generally much more partial to them!
It's actually easier I think for me to read a non-canon pairing than to read a canon pairing, because when I read a canon-pairing fic, a lot of times the characters feel off to me. Whereas I'm making a certain mental adjustment going into a non-canon pairing, and I don't have quite the same expectations.
Hmm, interesting!
Prior to SGA fandom, I rarely read couples that weren't canon ... usually I'd read them because I wanted more of the characters and couldn't get anything that wasn't het or slash, rather than because I actually was invested in the pairing. Being in SGA fandom has made me a lot more open to a variety of pairing options, but I still think that I tend to gravitate to canon-based fic most of all.
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Yeah ... I tend to stick pretty close to canon myself. SGA fandom has been making me a lot more playful about poking at "what ifs" -- including AUs (something I was never interested in before!) and different ways of pairing off the characters ... but it's still extremely difficult for me to write something that directly contradicts canon, and I tend to think of it as a fork-in-the-road AU rather than being on the same footing as my canon-based fics.
I try to write as close to canon as I can. If I do tweaks, I don't do it consciously, but I think, anytime you write someone else's character, you're adding your own tweaks, whether your shipping them, writing gen, or any other genre. It's pretty much impossible not to. So...if I was doing *more* of that when I shipped my characters, I didn't notice.
I'm pretty sure I never did this prior to SGA, at least not consciously, but the longer I'm in SGA fandom, the more I've been wanting to do alternate takes on the characters. Again, I think AUs are a good training ground for this -- taking their canon personalities and then playing up or playing down various traits based on their AU history. But I'm finding myself increasingly less certain that I have a firm grasp on the characters' canonical personalities at all, which is making my characterization wobble a bit from fic to fic. And I think some of it is down to a shift in my perceptions as to how I characterize fanfic characters, period.
Years ago, at the time that I got into SGA fandom, I would have railed against the idea that there can be more than one canonically-plausible version of a character. Canon, I thought, was canon, and that was that. But ... I don't know; the longer I'm in fandom, and the more I talk to people and read different fic and see how many different ways there are of interpreting a single canon event, a single canon relationship, it's getting much harder for me to justify the idea that there's a "true", canonical way of characterizing someone. And this, I guess, is making it harder for me to justify always writing the characters the exact same way.
I do notice that stories which are closer to what I see as the characters' "true personalities" are closer to my heart, though. For example, that fic I posted here a little while back, the one with Teyla and Rodney trapped together with the data device ... I originally tried to write it for a Teyla/Rodney fest, but utterly failed at putting in anything shippy, and a lot of that had to do with how much I loved the story. It would have been entirely *possible* (from a strict writing-mechanics standpoint) to go back and rewrite bits of it to put in a relationship. But to me, it would've felt like ruining it a little bit. I loved the story too much to do that to it. I like writing Teyla/Rodney but, at heart, I don't believe it's especially plausible in terms of canon, which means that I felt like I'd be sort of ... hmm, the best way I can describe it is "wasting" an idea I loved on a story that wasn't very canonical to me. I'd rather take a different idea, one that wasn't so close to my heart, and built a new story from the ground up with the ship built in.
(more to come in next comment ...)
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Yes, this! This is why I was so delighted to have Rodney/Jennifer to play with in SGA, because it opens up whole new areas of emotional territory to explore. Honestly, I think I understand "shipping" a lot better from this perspective than "because they're cute together" -- I don't mean to say that I think there's anything wrong with wanting two characters together just because they touch off something emotional in your heart, but I've so rarely experienced that, compared to how (relatively) often I've wanted to write a couple just to explore their interpersonal dynamic that the latter way makes more sense. As much as I adored the gen team dynamic in SGA, the near-total lack of canon couples was something I'd rarely experienced in my previous fandoms (which usually had at least a few couples or near-couples to work with). And it meant that certain kinds of relationships could not be written without introducing a non-canon ship.
Like you said, anytime you write someone else's characters you are adding things, bringing something new to your interpretation. And the kinds of stories that a person likes to tell are definitely part of that. I struggled for a long time trying to justify my own choices, but really, I think it just comes down to how invested you are (generic "you", not you specifically) in one particular view of the characters. I think that reading as much different fic as I have been is making it harder for me to stay deeply invested in my old gen view, but I haven't really found anything else I like as much (though I've tried a bunch of different things!).
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Hee! Excellent point!
But yeah, I do see what you're saying about canon narrowing the options. If two characters are together in canon, after all, there is only one canonical getting-together story, but fandom can write a million getting-together fics for a non-canon pairing (or a not-yet-together-in-canon pairing).
Is there much Sam/Keller? I ask because I've been wanting to read more SGA femslash, but it's really difficult to find; Teyla/Kate and Teyla/Keller is mostly what I've seen around. I'd welcome any good recs if you have some!
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Ha, yeah, WORD to this; I was saying something similar over on the DW version of this post and it's nice to know that the perception of J/E as a very schmoop-heavy branch of fandom is not just me. I'm open to the idea of the pairing, but have yet to find one that I actually liked (aside from a few more subtextual, UST-leaning ones with a lot of Rodney friendship -- I've always adored pairing-plus-outside-friendship dynamics).
Regarding canonicity ... I struggle with that. *g* I know that I tend to write characters closer than they are in canon, in most of my fandoms. SGA has kindly obliged by giving me, in the last couple of seasons, at least a few characters who are unambiguously as close as I've been writing them since season two. I've generally thought of myself as writing characters based in their canon incarnations, but realistically, I know that no two people are going to agree on a particular interpretation of a character. I suppose that's one of the cool things about fandom, because we can pick and choose the fannish interpretations that we like -- to stick with your example, we can seek out the writers who don't write Rodney as bumbling and ineffectual, or shrill and unlikable, or, depending on personal preference, maybe the bumbling ineffectual version would be preferred ... rather than being stuck with just one somewhat inconsistent canon version.
Give me a good genfic with strong emotional attachments, and I'm delighted. Nakama is my true ship, I think.
*g* Yeah, me too.
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I think this is how it breaks down for me, too, although in my case canon plausibility is also a factor -- that is, I think I'd hesitate to say that I ship two characters if there's no chance they could become a couple in canon (like Rodney/Teyla). And I rarely ship characters who aren't together because usually what sells me on a pairing is the presence of the pairing in canon, which probably mean that I rarely ship at all; it's just not really how I'm wired. But there are exceptions (like Roy/Riza).
No. Or rather, different pairings may bring different aspects of a character to the foreground, but all those aspects are still present in that character at all times, if that makes any sense. :)
That makes sense!
I think it's interesting how for me, it does seem to change the essence of the character to orient them romantically to someone different, at least a little bit. Which I guess makes it a little more comprehensible to me that some people have pairings they just can't write. Interestingly enough, I have pairings I can't read, but I don't think I have any that I couldn't write -- I've written several that I don't think I'd read (like, say, Carson/Ronon for remix one year). But I've heard people say they could never write [xy], or that they won't read a story if pairing [xy] is in it, even a little bit.
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I really don't get character/pairing hate. I never have. Even in the cases where I really can't stand a character or a pairing myself, I've never been especially bothered by other people liking it, and I've sometimes used fanfic as a way of finding a side of the character or the pairing that appeals to me -- in a lot of cases, getting inside their head helps with my dislike of them: Cadman, say, a character I really can't stand in canon, but I've written her in fic as positively as I could, and I felt like I came out of it with a better understanding of her.
I guess I just don't get why anyone would want to fan that way. People who subscribe to that particular style of fanning have told me that they get pleasure out of hating and mocking characters, so presumably it works for them and more power to them I guess, but it leaves me utterly baffled.
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I can't say I have ever hated a character/pairing simply because it existed in canon (unless it was, like, a villain you're supposed to hate) and I don't feel like I actually hate McShep, though other people might look at me and say I do. For me, it's often exacerbated by fandom, not canon, which of course is my problem more than it is anyone else's. (Like, I often want to set sgagenrefinders on fire, but that's my fault for actually trying to read the comm.)
I totally get what you mean about learning a new appreciation of a character by writing them. I haven't quite managed in fic yet, but I've done it through meta.
I can't speak for other people, but I don't consider hating a character as a form of fanning. It's a release, in a way, though. God knows my rants are more about fandom than they are about the characters themselves, though sometimes there's a slippery slope effect where the character catches some of the heat. It's a vicious cycle: someone bashes Keller in a McShep fic, I rant about McShep fans, and someone else rants about anti-McShep folk, and on and on. I came through the SG-1 ship wars and I don't actually want to repeat the experience. Other times, I just can't take it any more and I have to rant behind flock.
Fwiw, I've imposed rules on myself: no reading certain pairings, no reading certain writers, warn others if I think they need to be warned. Keep it behind flock, don't read the larger comms, stay in my safe spaces.
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I get that, to some degree, but for me it's less in canon" than "in the canon universe" - without the restrictions of TV, you know? Because we're not getting canon same-sex relationships among the main characters, not on most shows, but that doesn't mean it's not perfectly plausible.
Which I guess makes it a little more comprehensible to me that some people have pairings they just can't write.
I'm not sure how literally to take that "can't" - I mean, there are a lot of things I could do if I put enough time and energy and work into it, but I have zero motivation to do it. Frankly, if you want me to write something I'm not interested in, you'd better pay me for it. And well.
I'm curious - what's the appeal in writing something if the result isn't something you'd like to read?
But I've heard people say they could never write [xy], or that they won't read a story if pairing [xy] is in it, even a little bit.
Not reading stories with certain elements in them is a different matterfor me - some things I just can't ignore, so Pairing X (or Backstory Element X or Characterisation Point X, for example) just sits there in the story like a great big boulder in the stream, throwing everything else off for me.
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At least in the form of meta and rants, it's pretty easy to avoid. I can't say it doesn't still affect me ... but at least I have no one but myself to blame if I click on a link titled "Keller is a HORE!" or "Ten reasons why Rodney should DIAF!"
I do really resent it when it creeps into the fic itself. To some extent it's unavoidable -- we're all writing the show that we see, which isn't quite the show that everyone else sees. I mean, some fans genuinely see Keller as shrill, nagging, needy, and a disruptive influence on the team, so in writing her that way, they're just being true to their vision of the show. I can't say they're wrong, because none of us has the absolute voice of authority on canon, just that I disagree strenuously ...
And I must admit there's an aspect of sideways social creep, too -- if I know a fan makes a lot of rants about Keller in her journal, for example, I'm more likely to view her characterization with a jaundiced eye and suspect a slight where one might not be intended. I think this is probably influencing my reading of John/Ronon fic as well, because I've run into outspokenly anti-Rodney sentiments from some of the writers and in the comments to some of the fic, so I've become wary of that whole side of the fandom (and have generally retreated to reading a handful of writers that I trust to do justice to all the characters, like
I was there for the SG-1 ship wars too, and in fact left the fandom because it was so contentious and unhappy. I've tried to avoid the most contentious areas of SGA fandom because I really don't want the same thing to happen with my involvement in this fandom too. I am very glad that it seems like some of the other pairings are gaining ground and finding more readers; it makes me unhappy that it comes at the cost of the McKay/Sheppard side of fandom having become unhappy and divided, though, and I've occasionally seen people gleeing about the McKay/Sheppard contingent being miserable, which makes me flinch hard. I get resenting the popular side of the fandom (ha, it's why I'm not at all fond of Castiel in SPN, though I try to keep my mouth shut about that because I know there are quite a few Castiel fans on my flist), and I really don't consider myself a McKay/Sheppard person, especially not anymore ... I identify strongly as a gen fan. But I still feel unwelcome on the other side of the fence because I'm not on board with anti-McShep sentiments, either.
(Actually, that's one reason why I enjoy Teyla/Rodney fandom so much. It's a teeny-tiny corner of the fandom, and I don't think any of us exclusively ship Teyla/Rodney, but it's so cheerful. I can generally be confident that nobody's going to go off on Keller or write a fic that inexplicably becomes a treatise on the author's dislike of John.)
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Yeah ... I admit that I've wondered about the "can't" myself, because it's difficult for me to imagine being genuinely unable to write a character or pairing ... I guess it's a little easier for me to imagine with certain plots, because there are tropes that I cannot imagine myself writing, at least without hating every minute of it. "Can't", I think, is probably shorthand for "... is unmotivated to write". It still sounds a little weird to me, though.
I'm curious - what's the appeal in writing something if the result isn't something you'd like to read?
Inspiration. Curiosity. A desire to see what it's like on the other side of the fence.
For some reason, what I like to write and what I like to read don't line up perfectly. There are things I like to read (like some of the more indulgent forms of h/c) that I could never in a million years imagine writing, or at least not writing and posting. And there are things I've written that I probably wouldn't read if I came upon the summary, but I really enjoyed writing them.
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I'd probably be wiser to be more aware of how fanfic authors feel about certain characters, but I took a hiatus from the show mid-S2 to mid-S5 (I still read McShep fic) and never caught up on meta. (I missed the Katie bashing entirely and most of the Sam bashing.) So I've clicked on fic with totally innocuous summaries only to stumble on unexpected bashing. *shrug* I'm a lot more cautious about authors now. I pretty much assume I won't be able to handle a McShep fic (former McShep fan here, too) unless it's a total PWP.
I'll admit I'm curious which John/Ronon writers you've been avoiding, if you'd like to PM me. No worries if you don't feel comfortable (since I'm likely friends with them). I suspect there's a part of me/us that thinks, if they can do it, if they've been doing it for years, if they do it in public with no shame and receive hundreds of comments praising their good writing, why can't I? Why must I tread lightly? Why can't I ignore this popular character/pairing entirely or even explore the negative elements in canon that I feel fandom fanwanks away too often, and maybe get a handful of comments agreeing with my interpretation? I'm not saying this is what drives my writing--certainly not. I write what I love, these characters, this universe. But if fanfic is indeed a community project, I can't pretend I'm not also writing in reaction to fandom, my own small protest. (It's why I started the Brightest Heaven-verse, after one too many Jeannie-bashing comments.)
That said, you've got a point too. Doing so means I risk alienating readers like you who love all the characters and just want to get along with everyone. I certainly don't want that. I can't speak for anyone else--maybe others care more about finally writing how they feel.
I am very glad that it seems like some of the other pairings are gaining ground and finding more readers; it makes me unhappy that it comes at the cost of the McKay/Sheppard side of fandom having become unhappy and divided, though
Well, I certainly don't glee at McShep fans being miserable (or if I have, please let me know and I'll try to be better) but I am glad that other pairings are being explored more. It was really interesting for me to come from SG-1, where I was a die-hard OTPer, to SGA, where suddenly I was a multi-shipper! (To clarify: I still prefer gen in canon.) I love that I can play with so many different pairings, since, as you said on the DW version of this post, different pairings means you can explore different elements of the characters, facets you might otherwise never see. One reason I love Ronon/Jennifer is that this hard-ass warrior survivor guy finally got to show his softer side, got to see him open up, be vulnerable to someone. And Jennifer responded, sharing her own fears. It was wonderful!
It's a teeny-tiny corner of the fandom, and I don't think any of us exclusively ship Teyla/Rodney, but it's so cheerful.
That's good to hear, it really is :) My corner of fandom is quite cheerful too--well, angsty-cheerful since John/Cam is a slightly angsty pairing unless you write one of them moving galaxies! It's really only when we venture into the larger SGA fandom that things become less fun.
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Luckily for the world, I really am terrible at remembering who wrote what, and it's not so much that I avoid specific people; it's more that I gravitate towards the ones whose takes on the characters are compatible with my own. I really don't go around maintaining a shit list of other fans or anything like that! (Okay, there are some people who are so egregiously obnoxious that I avoid them like the plague, but that's mostly in context of Racefail-type stuff and not pairing preferences or whatnot. As long as someone's not going to dump on me for liking the characters I like -- which you're totally not! -- then I don't care if they have a different take on them.)
For that matter, I certainly don't think that any fannish interpretation of the characters should be off the table. I loved Zillah's "Push 'Til It Holds", for example, which is certainly anything but a happy fluffy take on McKay/Sheppard. I like to encounter alternative takes on the characters and the universe, and I'll read darn near anything as long as I feel like the characters are being treated fairly -- they can be flawed, sure, but I want to feel as if the author is making a decent stab at writing their motivations and their fates sympathetically. Where I tend to react badly are the situations where I feel like the author is twisting the characters to suit her own ends -- making Keller a homewrecking bitch or a dishrag so that John and Rodney can hook up guilt-free; downplaying the characters' canonical friendships to make their lover the only important person in their universe; emphasizing a character's flaws at the cost of their virtues. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that the sort of canon-twisting I tend to notice reflects my own fannish preferences as well. The teammates' friendships are important to me (and John and Rodney's friendship most of all), so a story that erases those friendships to elevate the pairing is probably a story I won't finish (and the frequent tendency of McKay/Sheppard stories to do that with Teyla and Ronon was definitely one of the things that soured me on the pairing). But I am, in honesty, unlikely to notice a story erasing Carson, unless it's completely gratuitous and over-the-top, because he's not a character who is really on my radar.
But you know, if there's a corner of fandom that wants to write a universe with an anti-Rodney slant, either as a protest against canon or because that's what makes them happy, then sure, why not? Just like those corners of fandom who want to write a Keller-free universe (in protest, for fun, whatever) are welcome to do so. It's not my thing, in either case, but fandom is certainly big enough for many views, and many different little corners with their own individual takes on the characters. I don't have any desire to hang out in a corner of fandom where people get together to tear down Rodney, or Keller, or Elizabeth, or anybody -- or those characters' fans, either. But that doesn't mean I have a problem with those places existing.
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I am a complete and unrepentant 'shipper. 'Shipping is what interests me in any sort of story: canon, fanfic, made-up-in-my-head. When I was a little girl and sheltered and pedantic, I rarely got into stories with just boys because there was no chance (I thought) of romance. (Just girls was okay, because I'd relate to the characters in other ways. But boys were pretty much for the kissing. *g*)
But I consider "shipping" to be:
That you find them cute and they make you mooshy?
... in a totally fanning way, or ...
That you think they
shouldwill be together in canon?... in a more meta way.
Meta: I love figuring out what couples are going to form in a given story or tv show. I'll have my preferences, but I learned to not take it too seriously so as to not sour canon. (From "BtVS" when Oz arrived and was too adorable to label an usurper for long (ditto Tara for that matter). And from "Harry Potter" when I could see the Harry/Hermione folk heading for a serious crash.)
With meta, I'm working strictly with what canon gives me. So even if the pairing doesn't strike me as all that (I eventually had problems with most of the HP couples that I saw coming down the pike) it is what it is. And that's how I'll discuss it. It'll only get passionate if a character I like(love!) gets bashed (or if I think someone's being willfully wrong) ... but I'm working on that. ;)
Fanning: With fannishness, where I ♥ a pairing I doubt will ever show up in canon, I try to not let my shmoopy reading affect my more clinical meta reading. For example: I adored the idea of Buffy and Spike together (I think after he made that "monster in your man" comment, because it was truth), but I could not, could not, could not, see them actually hooking up in canon. Heck, there was even an episode where magic-made-them-do-it that I thought just underscored how wrong they were in actual canon. (I will forever adore Joss Whedon as a storyteller because he made their eventual 'ship work. And it was a job and a half.)
So while I enjoyed McShep in a fannish sense, I tried to keep it from affecting the way I looked at canon. (There was some creep. I have a very hard time seeing John as heterosexual. By this point I see him as more gay than straight, with only a specific type of woman attracting him at all. I stubbornly blame Joe Flanigan and suspect him of sneaking in subtext. To this day!) Which meant I adored Rodney getting his love stories. Because in canon I just don't see him romantically in love with John and he seemed to really want to be in love. (For this reason, my two top SGA ships are McShep and McKeller, which unsurprisingly leads to a few headaches.)
Then there's character analysis where I'll enjoying seeing/thinking about how characters would act if they were in a relationship with other characters. I think this has been talked about in other posts. Just briefly: Mulder is a slightly different man with Scully then with Krychek then with Skinner. Woosley brings out a different side of John than Rodney does. Depending on how deeply that aspect of the character pings with me, it could become a new 'ship. At the very least, it's tons of fun to ponder. :D But I wouldn't expect everyone to jump on board, see it as plausible (heck, I wouldn't argue plausibility canonwise for most of the mashups), or even agree it could ever happen no matter the tweaks. The fun there for me is in the imagining.
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it's more that I gravitate towards the ones whose takes on the characters are compatible with my own.
I can understand this.
I'm also not oblivious to the fact that the sort of canon-twisting I tend to notice reflects my own fannish preferences as well.
Yes, this is very true. I've never understood S4 fic that talks about how Sam was so mean or a bad leader, because I adore S4 Sam. I'm particularly sensitive to SGC-bashing, which unfortunately many writers don't even realise they're doing. I definitely wouldn't notice a story that erased Carson either, though! I mean, there's a reason I replaced him with Carolyn Lam.
I don't have any desire to hang out in a corner of fandom where people get together to tear down Rodney, or Keller, or Elizabeth, or anybody -- or those characters' fans, either. But that doesn't mean I have a problem with those places existing.
See, I do and don't have a problem with it? Even though I've certainly contributed to such negativity myself? Like, I feel really, really guilty for my comments re Sam in my early SG-1 days--it was very wrong of me. I hate that there was an anti-Weir comm. OTOH, I understand writing fic that ignores Rodney and Carson (and John and Daniel) because you don't like those characters, and I understand ranting and venting as long as you keep it in your own space.
Maybe it's just a matter of ignoring and not bashing. Like, maybe the best/most peaceful approach is to write fic that simply ignores Keller or Sam, or Rodney or John, rather than try to explain... whatever. I mean, given a choice between downplaying canonical friendships versus outright bashing, I think "absence" would be more palatable to me. (By which I don't mean "Keller quits and goes back to Earth", I mean "Keller never got together with Rodney in the first place".)
Over on DW, I said I wasn't going to keep talking, but I wanted to reply since you'd already commented :)
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With canon, though I've always said I'm a canon junky, I think the more precise definition for me is "what you (I) see is what you (I) get." I take what canon gives me, imperfect as it is, and work with it the best that I can, but I don't look any deeper than that except for what canon hasn't given us (Ex. Sheppard's mom, Sheppard's childhood, etc). I was open to John/Weir for a little while because of episodes such as The Long Goodbye, but not deeply since she was his boss and the show hadn't expounded on it. The show hinted at John/Teyla, so for a while I did have John/Teyla leanings as someone John would/could eventually get with. Now with both Teyla and Elizabeth out of the picture, my leanings are for a female OC or Nancy (more Nancy, because she seemed to still care for him, and I like the idea of them getting back together should her current husband leave her (my personal scenario ;))). The show was quite adamant about John and Rodney liking girls (and Ronon had had Melena) therefore a male pairing is out of the question.
However, having a lack of OTP isn't why I don't write ship. It simply doesn't interest me, at least not enough to write something (although I have toyed with the idea of writing something just to pair poor John with someone, either Nancy or an OC - though the OC thing I did do, didn't I ;)). Romance I save for original fic, and even then, so far, it's pretty light. As to why I don't read ship, that's more to do with me being too particular. There have been a few het stories that I've enjoyed (via recommendations), but in those the pairing aspect was light; it was important to the plot, but wasn't the center of the plot's universe and didn't bog me down with UST drama and sugary schmoop (so I will give ship an occasional chance even though I don't actively seek it out).
I don't know if this contributes in any way or is me just rambling. Apologies if it's rambling :/ but I found the topic interesting and it made me go all thinky ;)
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And I'm responding late, so we match. *g*
I love figuring out what couples are going to form in a given story or tv show. I'll have my preferences, but I learned to not take it too seriously so as to not sour canon. (From "BtVS" when Oz arrived and was too adorable to label an usurper for long (ditto Tara for that matter).
Interesting! I think that for my part, I try not to think too much about it because I don't want to get too set on a particular outcome (either for or against the pairing) and then get too frustrated when it doesn't happen. Being me -- i.e. contrary and sort of aromantic -- I seem to get set against a pairing more easily than I get set for it; I had that happen to me in season one with both John/Teyla and John/Elizabeth, and had to fight against that in subsequent seasons. So I tried not to do it with either Ronon/Jennifer or Rodney/Jennifer, but to just relax and take them as canon gave them to us ...
So while I enjoyed McShep in a fannish sense, I tried to keep it from affecting the way I looked at canon. (There was some creep. I have a very hard time seeing John as heterosexual. By this point I see him as more gay than straight, with only a specific type of woman attracting him at all. I stubbornly blame Joe Flanigan and suspect him of sneaking in subtext. To this day!)
*laughs* Me too. *sigh* And I really have NO idea how much of that is what I'm actually seeing in the show, and way, way too much meta that played up a queer reading of the character. (For that matter, I have a really easy time seeing him as asexual, too; a friend of mine sold me on that reading pretty hard.)
Because in canon I just don't see him romantically in love with John and he seemed to really want to be in love.
That's actually a very plausible reading of Rodney. In fact, to some extent I think he's in love with the idea of being in love -- or, well, for a long time I've thought that Rodney was very fixated on the whole romantic ideal of having a wife and kids and a suburban house and all of that, while being blind to the fact that it would be terrible for him to actually do that. I see both Rodney and Jeannie as having been indoctrinated with a lot of 1950s-style baggage about gender roles and marriage. Jeannie, I think, has made her peace with it and figured out how to get it to mesh with the lifestyle she wants to lead. I don't think Rodney has. I think on some subconscious level he's still chasing after an impossible ideal, a housewifely wife and 2.5 kids -- which in reality is not at all what he either needs or wants (as evidenced by the fact that the #1 thing he actually finds attractive appears to be a woman's brains -- ALL of Rodney's attractions in canon, that I can think of, are to smart or scientist-type women, even the one-episode flings).
Mulder is a slightly different man with Scully then with Krychek then with Skinner. Woosley brings out a different side of John than Rodney does. Depending on how deeply that aspect of the character pings with me, it could become a new 'ship.
I think that's what draws me to multishipping, really. Being in love with different people brings out different aspects to a character. I find that very interesting!
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Hee! Knowing you're a confirmed non-shipper, I was kind of surprised to see you answer this question. :D
But your answer makes sense. I really loved your John/OC story, and I think the low-key nature of the relationship was the key there (and, also, I could really see John going for the character as you depicted her). I am not really into romance in general, but it's way easier to sell me on it if it's subtle and well-integrated with the story. (Another good example I can think of is "East of the Sun, West of the Moon" by dossier ... have you read that one? It's mainly a John story, but there's a running subplot of Rodney/OFC that's very understated and well-integrated with the story; I'd hesitate to even call the story het rather than gen, but the relationship is definitely there. It's just not what the story is about.)
So, yeah. This definitely makes sense!