sholio | The Disambiguation Thread

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The Disambiguation Thread

This followed from a conversation with

with_apostrophe, who pointed out (very aptly) that American fic writers don't tend to consider people from other countries when they throw cultural references into their stories. I was trying to figure out how to annotate mine in a way that wouldn't be obtrusive or annoying, and also trying to figure out just what needed to be annotated. What's obscure and what's well-known? Eventually I came up with this instead.

Here is where you post questions about my stories. It can be a reference that you didn't get, or something plotwise that didn't make sense, or why I made a particular story decision, or, heck, somewhere that I screwed up on technology or medicine or grammar. Remember:

- There are no stupid questions (no matter what Rodney McKay might claim).

- Questions that are critical of my stories are fine. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I minded being asked about something.

Ready ... set ... ask!

(Note: The word disambiguation is snurched from Wikipedia.)

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I find that it is hard to put cultural references into a story unless you have researched it or have first hand knowledge. When reading, unless I had prior knowledge or someone translated, I wouldn't even know any difference. And that goes for medical and technological. I trust the logic if it seems logical to me.

As for writing American and Canadianism's I find the spelling amusing. American-english and NZ-english is completely different. And when you have Canadian-American beta's you get the prodding about the spelling. I mean if you are writing a fic based in America you should really spell the words American? For me colour and blonde are a few differences.

Obviously the sayings - (I'd never heard 'hell in a hand basket' but it kept popping up in a lot of fics) is also something that gets lost if you aren't a local.

As for your stories unless I go back and reread them (which I do every once in a while) I can not think of anything offhand that confused me or gave me reason to question it.

These are not in one of your stories as far as I'm aware, and like Ang, I don't recall any off-hand, but what are "Smores" and what are "Snickerdoodles". 'Cause the first sounds like someone's trying out the famous line from "Oliver Twist" and slurring the words together, and the second sounds like someone scribbling on a chocolate bar. They turn up regularly in SGA fic.

If I could think of any of the top of my head... I just can't. I think I've learnt to just ignore cultural references simply because if I researched them (and I used to) then it takes longer to find the meaning of one sentence than to finish the entire story, heh.

It's really just words that make me look twice. For example, to me, when I'm writing fanfic Rodney or Peter would say 'ZPM' and John would say 'Zee-pm' before I realize that it would probably have any american readers confused and I have to alter it. I still stick to my roots when it comes to 'colour', 'programme' and the like.

You know, I haven't come across any fic-writers that actually think of us (thank you!)

Snickerdoodles are sugar cookies with cinnamon and sugar sprinkles. They're not actually that common in real life -- either that, or they're regional and I happen not to be in a region that does that; I've heard of them and had one once or twice, but we didn't make them when I was a kid.

Smores are a campfire food. I blame the Boy/Girl Scouts for the ubiquity of this one, because pretty much *everyone* in the U.S. who has camped out has probably made them at some point, even though they're sort of nasty (IMHO). They consist of two graham crackers with a marshmallow and a couple squares of a Hershey chocolate bar sandwiched between them. Either the marshmallow or the chocolate is heated up beforehand so that the filling is all squooshy. I could totally see John teaching Teyla and Ronon to make smores, and Teyla thinking they were nasty and Ronon just giving up on the busywork and eating the entire bag of marshmallows...

Personally I'm not bothered by British/Aussie/NZ spellings for words in fic, even if the viewpoint character is American. I mean, it's true that John probably wouldn't be thinking "colour" but I don't mind reading it. I tend to think of that as being a function of the writer, not the characters; I'm used to books written and published in Britain using the British spellings (understandably enough) even if they're not taking place *in* Britain, if that makes any sense...

*laughs* Well, like I said above, I don't mind the British spellings of words because you get that in books, so why not in fic? It's a matter of how the author spells things, not how the character spells things.

I keep wanting to write ZedPM and have to remind myself not to because that's going to be incomprehensible everywhere but the U.S.... At least there's a standard spelling for "Z" no matter how it's pronounced.

I'm certainly guilty of putting in cultural references. I think it's very hard not to, especially since it's a source of conversation for Rodney and John so much in canon as well. Admittedly, I go for the nostalgic stuff (things I imagined they both watched as teenagers and in their twenties, as opposed to current day stuff) though. It's just hard to break a flow, once you've started. It's a bit like watching anything written by Joss Whedon--you just have to go for the ride.

Do I have any questions for you? No, I just felt like chiming in. Oh, and I like English spellings--I think all those extra "u's" are pretty. Harbour, Labour, Colour...And the "s" instead of a "z" is totally cool -- though I think Elizabeth Weir has to be Elizabeth, not Elisabeth, just because that's how she spells it. Oh, and saying "Left-tenant" instead of "Lieu-tenant" - so much better. There's just something incredibly romantic about "Left-tenant." I do prefer saying "sked-jewel" to "shedg-jewel" though for schedule...

Um.. ever try a s'more with Reese's peanut butter cups instead of chocolate bars? Yum! I can picture Shep teaching them the fine art of cooking marshmallows on a stick, Ronon setting his on fire and it falling into the flames.

Ah, thank you.

Well, considering that the show itself is rife with cultural in-jokes, and we *know* both John and Rodney are gigantic geeks ... it's really impossible to write fic that doesn't throw cultural references around. And it wouldn't be true to the show *not* to. Part of what gives Stargate its unique feeling, I think, is the idea that these are just a bunch of your basic modern-day dorks out saving the galaxy, and you can't really get away from the fact that they're going to be talking about TV shows and comics and such. Hence this thread...

I think your stories (and mine) are probably lighter on the cultural references than some, because of the action-adventure nature of what we write; there's just much less time for bantering about comics when they're also running from the Wraith. *g*

No, I've never tried that -- but I love Reese's cups, so it sounds worth a try! I think the aspect of smores that I find kind of nasty is the over-abundance of marshmallow; it's like a mouthful of marshmallow with a little bit of chocolate and graham cracker around it. Maybe I'm making them wrong...

Not at all! There's always time for cultural references in banter!

That's it, the next story I write, there's going to be comic book references while they're running from the Wraith. Just for you. (hee hee hee)

Actually, I was thinking more of the two times I've gone off on old muscle cars -- two stories of mine mentioned them. I even had a whole scene that surrounded the conversation of the mustang from Bullit versus the Gran Torino from Starsky & Hutch. Then there's also the fact that Failure to Communicate heavily referenced The Great Escape and Cool Hand Luke. Maybe it's not so much *whether* you reference, but *what* you reference? Yes, something like Cool Hand Luke is a very American movie, but it's also such an American *guy* movie, and every guy I know can quote the damn thing. And the same with cars. It may not be the most current of references, or a reference that most girls or women would know, but I can totally see two almost forty year old guys talking about it easily and naturally. I don't want to take that away--to me, it's that sort of thing that makes them more real.

That being said, I can't see either of them being a big fan of, say, American Idol, or even being aware of most of the pop culture of the last three, four years. First off, they don't get TV and, if they get movies, it's going to be older ones. I would expect more Blues Brothers and Star Wars references before the latest LOTR movies, for example, no matter how awesome they were. Maybe it's just me, and a factor of my age, but...when it comes to cultural references in dialogue, I go for the older stuff. Now, is that better than newer stuff? Is that going to be more known? Probably not. If anything, for the younger set, it's probably even more obscure.

I'm sorry, this is really getting off topic. And I should be working. Don't mind me!

Maybe it's not so much *whether* you reference, but *what* you reference?

I'd also say it's *how* you reference as well. I've never seen either of the movies that are referenced by "Failure to Communicate" (yeah, I'm a cultural backwater), but I didn't feel like the conversations were going over my head -- I could tell at times that there were references I wasn't quite getting, but not in an "OMG I don't understand any of this!" kind of way; it was more like the way that sometimes a couple of your friends will start talking about a movie you haven't seen or a sporting event you don't follow, and you can still enjoy the byplay without really understanding all of the nuances of what they're saying -- if that makes any sense.

Regarding old vs. new references -- that's an important thing; whatever cultural references you're using have to be appropriate to the character and the situation that they're in! I've seen stories where John or Rodney were quoting from something that's just completely WRONG for a 40-year-old guy. Rodney quoting Buffy? Or listening to contemporary pop music? (Yes, I've seen both of these MORE THAN ONCE.) I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. Rodney knowing the names of all the female guest stars on the original Star Trek, or being able to quote from Starsky & Hutch -- that's a whole lot more plausible. *grin*

Okay, I have to confess I see no reason why you shouldn't have American cultural references when you are writing stories based on characters supposedly living in America, or where the majority of the characters are supposedly American. What is wrong with that? If the characters/setting is the UK or NZ or France or where ever then it is perfectly reasonable to assume there will be terms, products, etc that are not common in the US. I have lived, traveled and read enough to expect this. Frankly, I think it odd that there are those who are upset by it.

I have no problems with the spelling being British versus American; it's just a quirk of the language shift. There are some words that I spell one way and some I spell the other - causing my spellchecker to have a nervous breakdown. ;-)

Well, I don't think the issue is that people *shouldn't*; I totally agree with you -- if you're writing American characters (or British, or Russian, or whatnot) they're going to be referring to TV and celebrities and music and food that is familiar to them. That's how it should be, and part of what makes the story feel real. I think the issue is more that sometimes the references can be so thick that it's hard to understand the story -- that, or just wanting to know more about whatever is being referenced.

I've seen stories where John or Rodney were quoting from something that's just completely WRONG for a 40-year-old guy. Rodney quoting Buffy? Or listening to contemporary pop music? (Yes, I've seen both of these MORE THAN ONCE.) I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. Rodney knowing the names of all the female guest stars on the original Star Trek, or being able to quote from Starsky & Hutch -- that's a whole lot more plausible. *grin*

YES. yes yes yes. I've seen them too, and it just makes me cringe! David Hewlett, I could see it, maybe, but Rodney? Good God no. The show we know he enjoys the most is Outer Limits, for goodness sakes. He missed it so much, he imagined watching it in "Home". Plus, the other shows he's referenced are Jeopardy and the original Batman. I'm thinking there's a trend that one could spot there...

Funny you have this discussion. I am so guilty of this. I even received a review saying as much. She had no clue what I was talking about but thought the chapter was funny!

Sometimes, I forget who's in the audience and geek out and get just too clever with myself. Definitely something to consider as I write. People should feel free to ask the author, I know I'd love to explain anything.

When I am referencing, I'm thinking of things my husband and I quote or things our friends remember. I'm in the same age group as John and Rodney, so it's not such a stretch to think of things. Yes, Gen X is in the house and coming to power.

I'm glad people don't mind British spellings too much - it's easier for me to leave them that way rather than to trust an American spell checker in MS Word (and I don't even trust it for the British spellings entirely!)

I do try to use American (or Canadian, or Scottish...) terms for the appropriate characters where I can (and have been known to do internet searches, and ask on the yahoo list I'm on when I can't find the answer myself) but I don't worry about it too much. I try to make sure people know that I'm British (in my profiles on whichever site they are reading my stuff) and hope that they can take that into account. I once had Rodney's parents not wanting to pay for his medical care as a kid, only to find out that Canada has it's own form of the NHS, so his parents wouldn't have had to pay!!! I changed it once it had been pointed out to me - so glad someone did).

I think if you are writing for an American character, you need to try and make the terms fit as much as possible, as I would hope people would do (and have done) for an English character (Grodin) or Scottish (Carson). But not being American, I make mistakes, and there have been mistakes made for the British characters, though not so common in Atlantis - you guys seem to get the hang of us pretty good on the whole! Though please note; not every British person drinks tea!!! (And not every Socttish person likes Scotch...!*bg*)

As for American references or terms, I look them up if they are really bothering me, or ask on the yahoo list, but usually I just don't worry about it too much. The sheep jokes that turn up for Carson made me scratch my head at first - to us Brits it's the Welsh not the Scottish who get the brunt of these jokes, but figured it was an American thing, and it's fun, so why worry?

I love that the TV show uses popular references, even if I suspect I might miss a few of them. And even if I haven't seen the film, I can get the drift - all I know about the Fab Four comes from Atlantis and various discussions in fandom about it! And I got the Castaway reference in Epiphany, even though I've never seen the film! And how does 'The Sixth Sense' end? No, don't answer - that's something I can have in common with Rodney!

Hmm, a lot of rambling - but basically, popular culture references are fine, but if you think someone outside your country might not get it, stick an author's note at the end for them - like I will do if I ever get around to Carson going all Scottish and using lots and lots of 'huh, what does he mean' words!!! (Which I will look up on a handy little translation site I found the other day...!*vbg*)

you use small, super toasted marshmellows and lots of chocolate :) that's my trick at least!

must be just my family. I've always made snickerdoodles :) And they are some of my friends favorites because of the slightly 'tart' taste from the cream of tarter rather than the usual suger taste from a sugar cookie.

*grin* Honestly, I don't think it's a problem at all as long as it's something that the characters would conceivably recognize. I mean, that's their *life*. I can totally see them geeking out about something and annoying everyone around them.

But it wasn't 'till

with_apostrophe pointed it out to me, that I realized that I really ought to be explaining this stuff for people who want to know what all of the cultural references are.

Well I don't mind non-American spellings. What throws me is when authors use non-American terms especially in the character's speech.

Sam would not talk about her "Mum". She'd talk about her "Mom" and has on the show. Daniel wouldn't tell someone to point the "torch" over here. He'd ask about the flashlight. And if anyone told Jack that was a nice "jumper" he's wearing, I think he'd freak out since in the U.S. a jumper is a kind of dress and not a sweater.

Some I can get past, others throw me completely out of the story.

This isn't an all-purpose thread to complain about things other people do in fic. This thread is specifically for asking me questions about mine. Sorry if that was unclear.^^

Unless I *have* used Mum in a fic lately when it wasn't supposed to be there. In which case, it helps to point out a specific place that I did it!

Oh darn it -- I thought I'd replied to this! *headdesk*

but basically, popular culture references are fine, but if you think someone outside your country might not get it, stick an author's note at the end for them

Well, hence this thread, really. Because I'm not always sure what might be too specific for non-Americans to get. Obviously a reference to the Nenana Ice Classic (a lottery in my state) would be something that no one but Alaskans would get (and the SGA characters wouldn't even know about). But I didn't know until

with_apostrophe asked about it that s'mores were a specifically North American thing. I assume that Superman jokes are intelligible outside the country because the character's that well known, but what about a Dukes of Hazzard joke? In the end, I decided to do this thread in lieu of detailed explanations, unless I'm using something in a fic that's pivotal to the plot and that I know is too specific for a lot of people to understand.

Woops, missed this the first time around...

all I know about the Fab Four comes from Atlantis and various discussions in fandom about it!

The Fab Four are the Beatles, right? But aren't they British to begin with?

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The Disambiguation Thread

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