sholio | Hi world (with extra bonus meta!)

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Hi world (with extra bonus meta!)

So, not only did I get back from vacation to find that my professional life (both on the writing front and the day-job front) had blown up in various ways, but my husband had moved all the furniture into the garage and refinished the floor. Which, on the one hand, is awesome, because it really needed it, and now it's shiny and gorgeous rather than dull and scratched, plus I didn't have to do any work at all! It just magically polished itself! The only problem is, while I was staying at ye ancestral homestead, my mother made it very clear that all the stuff I've been storing there since I moved out (fifteen years ago) HAS GOT TO GO. So I came back with my little car packed to the brim with boxes of old books, toys, clothes, letters, etc. that I need to go through and probably, in most cases, throw away or give to goodwill. But ... now I have no idea where or how or WHEN I'm going to be able to sort them! The car is still packed with stuff, and on top of that, the house reeks of varnish (it's giving me a headache) and it's obnoxiously chilly in here because we've had all the doors and windows open for two days and it's ALASKA so it's sixty degrees in July. And the dogs think the end of the world is here, and keep hiding in the bedroom, or clinging to my legs and requiring constant reassurance that, no, we didn't move all the furniture outside to punish them for something they can't remember doing.

I'm dealing with it in my usual mature and responsible fashion ... by hiding on LJ. Hello, LJ!

Where fandom has exploded, it seems. Again. In various ways. Rather than round up links, I'll just point you all at

metafandom for details if you're curious, since that's where I'm getting most of them from anyhow. Basically, there appear to be two things making the rounds right now:

- Thing One: A fairly well-known asshat at

fanthropology publicly "outed" a fanfic writer, connecting her personal and professional identities.

I'm not sure if my association with anyone on my current flist goes back this far, but I used to write fanfic under my real name. I stopped and switched to pseuds (first Sholio, later friendshipper) because I realized that being associated with fanfic could hurt my fledgling RL writing career. I've never tried THAT hard to keep them separate, so I honestly haven't as much to lose as some people do, but the thought of being maliciously outed had occurred to me from time to time, usually in a "... but no one would be that nasty, would they?" kind of way. Well, apparently, yes they would, and it freaks me out that there are people so petty, small-minded and stupid in fandom. Some people maintain a separate fannish pseudonym because their career could be hurt; some people are worried about other RL issues (stalkers, family finding their journal, etc); some just like the freedom of being able to create their own identity online; others probably have other reasons, but no matter what, they obviously chose to maintain that privacy for a REASON. Exposing the connection between a person's pseudonym and their real name is probably the most gross violation of online privacy that anyone can commit, short of publishing their address and phone number. Whether you're in fandom or not, it's an obvious, fundamental violation of online etiquette (and just general manners).

Someone might be new online, and not realize that. Someone might slip and refer to a friend by their RL name, which happens to me more than I'd like, especially with people that I have strong offline friendships with -- exchanging emails under real names and then switching to fandom pseudonyms can be tricky, especially since I'm pretty casual about using my real name online (and, generally, don't mind if other people do), so it often doesn't occur to me until after the fact that I've slipped up. I'm such a moron sometimes that I wouldn't be surprised (though I don't remember specifically) if I've accidentally referenced other people, especially the better-known ones, in unlocked discussions without thinking about it. You can do it by mistake and not mean any harm, though it's something I'm trying to be more careful about.

But outing someone on a large fan board, on purpose ... that's obviously malicious and I'm very glad that fandom's come down on her hard. This is an utterly despicable thing to do to anyone online. (Although, having said that, I doubt if it would be more of a minor annoyance for me personally, because I've never worked that hard at keeping mine separate, and anyone with rudimentary googling skills can figure it out. But just because it's not that important to me doesn't mean anyone can go around doing it to be a dickwad. I'm always happy to let a friend stay on my couch, but if I come home to find a total stranger and all their buddies sleeping on my couch, I will be pissed.)

-Thing Two: The ever-popular to-criticize-or-not-to-criticize debate. When I saw that this one was making the rounds again, I actually thought I'd started it, because shortly before I left there was a locked discussion on my LJ about concrit. I was relieved, in a way, to discover that it's a completely unrelated thing, and a little different from what I was talking about -- although, my relief that I hadn't started a mess and then accidentally walked away to let everyone else deal with it was tempered by the fact that people I know and respect are getting attacked for their beliefs, and that's never cool.

The difference between this debate, and the one in my journal, is that I was wondering how far it's okay to go when you're commenting on someone else's story -- that is, bringing your opinions into their space. This, apparently, unless I'm totally missing the reading-comprehension boat, involves the whole idea of critizing other fen's stories in one's own journal. (Here's the original post, and attached discussion, that spawned the round of meta. The original post is fairly unclear what sort of concrit it's talking about; the discussion makes clearer that the topic at hand is not comments on fanfic, but third-party discussion/debate/reccing that isn't glowingly positive.)

Here's how I see it: This journal is MY SPACE. I try to be polite, reasonable and a good fannish citizen, and treat others as I'd like to be treated; I do hope that nothing I post here will be blatantly offensive to anyone, but, being human, I'm sure that I'll stumble sometimes, and I hope that someone calls me on it if I do. I also try to be a hands-off moderator and let other people disagree with me; I don't think I've ever deleted a comment, the only people I've banned are blatant trolls and spammers, and I've only ever gone back and made private an unlocked post once or twice (and I felt very bad about it).

But, when it comes right down to it, the sole arbiter of what I post in my space is me, and me alone. And nobody gets to tell me what I can post here. Well, of course, you're perfectly welcome to TRY -- you can announce to the world that you want everybody else to write a particular kind of thing in their journals, at which point I will simply laugh at you and carry on as I have been.

You have every right to police your space as you see fit. If you don't want concrit and I invade your journal with a critical review, then I'm the one who's being rude, by imposing my own fannish values on your space. (It may not stop me, but I do understand that I run that risk, and if I get a poor reception, *I'm* the one who has erred.) But the suggestion that other fen are being rude by having the type of discussions that they want to have, in their own space ... that's just completely ridiculous, to me. I don't agree, and I have no intention of doing anything other than starting the discussions that *I* want to have, in the manner that I want to have them.

I know that there will always be differing opinions on this, and it will probably go on being a perennial topic of fannish discussion as long as there is such a thing as fandom. However, I'm pretty firmly in the "Don't like? Don't read" camp. Obviously, this means that everyone else is entitled to post whatever they want in their journals, too, which includes screeds on other people's journaling behavior. Just don't expect that you'll change how I do things.

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re: the reviewing argument, I agree entirely. You've eloquently summed up what I think so I don't have to add to the incredible number of posts already on the topic, cheers. :)

I wish I had your way with words. This is very well put.

Word on...everything. Even your rl stuff.*nods*

Well said.

I read something that I think dealt with the same issue from a link from

tejas, and I feel even more at sea than I did last night! Have I missed something?

I can understand saying on your own journal, "Oh, I didn't like that story" or "here's a better one," but I got the feeling--~~maybe~~ I'm paranoid--that more than that is at stake.

Are we talking about posting, "Oh, don't look at that story" or "Oh, I like what she does with the characters, but the writing's a little rough?" I found the latter about one of my stories by accident on a page of someone I didn't know (following links to story recs), and I was, I'll admit, a little hurt. But then I cheered up, because she was recommending it, and she did find things she'd liked. I didn't think the writing was rough; I thought it went very well with the point of view I'd chosen. But she (or he, I should say, as I really don't know) was entitled to that opinion.

Or are we talking about what I've found in one community, where sentences or sometimes chunks of stories are cut-and-pasted, with links to the original stories, and mocked? I forgot the name of the community; I don't intend to go back there. I couldn't imagine saying some of those things about people (even if there were terrible typos, and continuity errors, and egregiously bad characterization and writing); it just seemed nasty. It was a community devoted to laughing at people behind their backs--but it is a community, and anyone can read it, and I'm a little afraid to find myself targeted there.

You have a right to post what you want, but does that make it "right" in another sense?. When a number of people post extracts with their own purely negative comments, and then dozens of commenters pile on, not making constructive criticism (which isn't constructive for the author if she never sees it), or even saying anything that seems to me useful to other writers, I don't think they should be banned, but I think they are rude and wrong to do it. Some of the comments simply insulted the authors: their education, their intelligence, the possibility that they had disabilities (seriously, not funny!); some broke out the obscenities in the course of the mocking.

I have read some really bad fics. I have a guilty pleasure I'm afraid even to mention here: I know of one fanfic writer who isn't writing crackfic, but a couple of that writer's stories have read that way to me, and I entertain myself by reading them for laughs. I won't even say that person's username, let alone mock that person.

I know (from discussion at

fandom_rants) that "reasonable people can disagree" on a lot of things, but I also think that reasonable people can agree on some. If we want to talk about kidfic or mpreg and whether we like these things, that's one thing; to write that everyone who writes one of those stories is "a pervert" seems to me indeed to be rude. (I don't like either genre, by the way, but I don't slam the authors; I just avoid it.) And is it not rude to ridicule a specific story and invite other people to join in the ridicule?

I thought "Don't like? Don't read" applied to stories (and I agree--provided the author has given proper warnings: don't label porn "teen" or rape stories "R" with no non-con warning). Does it apply to attacks on people? If someone attacks me or my friends, do I just say, "Well, I shouldn't read that?" and not say, "Yes, I had a typo, but you have no business saying I'm brain-damaged"?

Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but I've seen some of it, quite recently, so it's heavily on my mind. I should have a thicker skin, I suppose, but the idea that it's acceptable for whole groups of people to jeer at those who have not made themselves public figures bothers me. And I don't think just posting on LJ, or writing fic, should make one an acceptable target for ridicule.

amen to that, Shipper!!! Also, I have a question about this issue with the outing, I had heard, and understood, or maybe misunderstood, that there's a list posted somewhere of ff writers with their real identities, is this true?

I haven't seen anything like that, but that doesn't mean much -- I also haven't read through all of the links. The only one I knew about was the one outing on fanthropology. I really *hope* no one has done something like that, but with all of this happening, I guess I wouldn't be surprised. (And, thanks!)

*sigh* don't people have better things to do? I got a hold of this by another online friend and thought you might want the info. There seems to be someone out there posting info on people online and their real lives!

http://dejana.livejournal.com/152580.html

http://ithiliana.livejournal.com/922604.html

I'm glad you weighed in, because, especially on something like this, I *want* to hear from those who have different opinions about it, too. It helps me work through my own opinions.

I don't have any hard-and-fast rules for where people's behavior slides over the line from juvenile and obnoxious to actively harmful. The juxtaposition of the two parts of my post kinda tells the tale, because I believe that posting someone's real name in connection with their fannish identity is actively harmful (in a way that mocking their fanfic is not) and the fannish community *should* reject that kind of behavior.

I also think there's a pretty big difference between being prohibitive about it ("No one should criticize someone else's story") and actively reacting to someone doing the thing -- "You criticized my story, but you're WRONG, WRONG, WRONG." I'd rather respond on a case-by-case basis than try to come up with some sort of blanket prohibition and smack down anyone who violates it, whether or not they've actually offended me or anyone else.

Where do *you* draw the line between "okay" and "not okay" -- online, or in real life? It's different for every situation, right? And for every person. If your neighbor puts up a butt-ugly lawn sculpture, it might be annoying, but I doubt if you'd go to the city council about it. If your neighbor plays loud music that keeps you from sleeping, that's when you might decide that their neighbor's right to behave as they want on their own property is being trumped by their lack of consideration for your own peace of mind. On the other hand, maybe you *like* loud music and you're fine with it, where another person might be upset.

So ... do you make some kind of hard-and-fast rule to cover every situation -- "Everything my neighbor does is my business" (right down to the color they paint their house) or "Nothing my neighbor does is my business" (even if their pit bull is eating your cat)? That's essentially what I'm objecting to, that kind of one-size-fits-all mentality -- "No one should post anything negative because it might offend someone." That's what it sounds like you're asking ME to do -- to come up with a Grand Unified Theory of Fannish Behavior that covers every situation I might encounter. Sorry, I don't have one. Basically, I try to behave politely but honestly in fandom, and beyond that, I let the specifics of the situation, and my conscience, be my guide. If I see someone being (in my opinion) an asshat, I am ABSOLUTELY not going to let some sort of arbitrary fannish rule about being nice to people stop me from calling them on it.

I think fandom would be a more pleasant place if we all worked a little harder to ignore the ugly sculptures on our neighbor's lawn (and to ignore the people pointing and laughing at our ugly scupltures, too). On the other hand, sometimes a little sculpture-mocking is therapeutic and pleasant. "Don't like? Don't read" is my personal philosophy for dealing with the INEVITABLE presence of people in fandom who will be doing things that I'm bound to find gross, immoral, bizarre, unpleasant, flat-out wrong, or simply not my cup of tea. It doesn't matter if they're posting stories or meta -- what matters is, as long as they're not bringing it into my space, the decision of whether to read and react to it is mine. There will always be someone, somewhere, out there in fandom, who's doing something that puzzles, disgusts or horrifies me. Trying to argue with them and change them is just going to make me AND them unhappy.

If someone attacks me or my friends, do I just say, "Well, I shouldn't read that?" and not say, "Yes, I had a typo, but you have no business saying I'm brain-damaged"?

Er ... when did I EVER say that you can't defend yourself? What I'm saying is the exact opposite: that you CAN. It's your journal -- you can call them lying weasels if you want to. Heck, you can go into THEIR journal and defend yourself, too. They might smack you down for it, but there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

On the other hand ... if you *know* someone's post will upset you if you read it, why go there? Morbid curiosity? Why not just leave it alone? You're unlikely to change their minds, and your friends are probably on your side to begin with.

Edited 2008-07-23 22:14 (UTC)

Thank you. :)

*blush* I appreciate that; it's just the contents of my brain on the issue, dumped out onto the page ...

Thanks! And why does the RL stuff always happen at ONCE, that's what I'd like to know! I could deal with it so much more easily if it was just one thing at a time...

Thank you!

The Astolat/partly_bouncy thing is exactly what I'm talking about, above. But I didn't know the full story (the fanthropology post was already deleted by the time I wandered into this whole mess via metafandom and my friends list), and I didn't know it wasn't the only time she's done it.

Edited to add: Thanks for the links! Forgot to say that before.

Edited 2008-07-23 22:17 (UTC)

As far as criticism goes, I'm all for constructive criticism, I'll be the first to admit, I'm not the best writer. I do find it a balancing act though when someone really screws up the science - I'm a molecular biologist/mycologist/geneticist, so sometimes I have to bite my tongue if it's not central to the plot, unless its really bad. I will offer to help though if they need technical advice.

As far as 'outting' authors - there's a reason I don't have a myspace or facebook account. I think someone could find me if they really really wanted to, and several people know who I am, but that doesn't excuse it being broadcast.

Upon further reflection, it also occurs to me that we wouldn't HAVE to have these sorts of discussions if people would just treat each other well in the first place.

You're very welcomed. I had no idea myself, but I've been reading my friend's lj and she posted this, thought I might share.

I can't believe someone would be that mean-spirited to do that to someone, and worse, justify it saying that it's there own damn fault, what kind of f-upped logic is that? It's like mugging someone and then blaming them for being in there. Really messed up!

Well said.

The "fandom is supposed to be fun" arguement tends to suppose that there is only one way to enjoy fandom: their way and any deviation from that is seen as a threat. Or that there is a Code of Conduct that all fen must adhere to, not just for the Good of the Community (tm), but also because if they don't it shows a flaw in their character. I worry that the arguement really being presented is that by not offering concrit means that I am in fact a better human being than someone that would.

There are so many different cultures and personality types knocking about the place it's no wonder that we're not all going to see eye to eye on what we want out of this and perhaps it shouldn't come down to the idea that group A or B has to change to please the other. If someone's being truly obnoxious fandom's normally pretty good at calling them out for it (see your first point), but I think there's going to be a difference of opinion on whether the existance of reviews of stories or concrit is in fact obnoxious behaviour.

One more analogy (yeah, 'cause what this conversation needs is more analogies!):

It occurs to me that the whole thing with public criticism is vaguely analogous to the existence of fanfic in general. Some authors feel personally hurt, angered or violated by the existence of fanfic, so they either ask that fanfic not be written of their creations, or demand that fanfic be outlawed and prosecuted.

I'm totally on board with respecting the first, but not the second. I do not post fic for authors I know aren't okay with it, and I think that people who do are being rude by violating the author's stated wishes (though I don't generally go out of my way to say so). I don't mind a bit when fan authors who violate the original author's rights (e.g. by selling fanfic for money, or suing the author for supposedly stealing an idea from them) get in trouble, with either the copyright holder or fandom itself. But I'm not at all okay with authors calling for a blanket prohibition simply because they personally dislike it or believe that it's harmful.

Yes, EXACTLY. There is never going to be a consensus on what constitutes appropriately polite behavior, and trying to hold everyone to the same standard of conduct isn't going to make anyone happy. As I was trying to work through in the comments above, "Don't like, don't read" isn't a blank ticket to be an obnoxious asshole, but I think fandom would be a happier, more relaxed place if people would chill out a little bit and give everyone else some space to interact with fandom in their own style.

Well, in this particular round of debate, it's less a question of telling them to their face, more a question of whether it's okay to nitpick the story in your own journal. Which, personally, I think should be okay ... but I know that people are touchy about it.

I think that's ok, as long as you put plenty of qualifiers with it - "I didn't like the story because..." that are fairly rational, but unfortunately we also live in litigious society today so I think it comes down to a judgement call - would you be comfortable telling the author your comments in person?

No, I don't think we can come up with a good set of rules. I might suggest some guidelines:
1. The Golden Rule (variant): If you'd be really upset if someone said it about you, you probably shouldn't say it.
2. If you wouldn't say it face-to-face, you probably shouldn't say it on the Internet. (This applies not simply to a pseudonym, which most of us use, but when something is so mean or obscene you'd be embarrassed to say it--although people now say really surprising things in person, too.)
3. If you know it isn't true or fair, don't say it.
4. If you think you'll regret it later, you probably shouldn't say it. (Big caveat on this: I sometimes post things I'm sure I'll regret, because I think they're true and someone should say them, but I'm afraid people will attack me. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I mean things that would embarrass you or make you appear in a way you might not want to appear in the future.)

I think those might eliminate a number of posts. But yes, they aren't hard-and-fast rules, and I don't have any. I'm not preemptively banning speech; I am asking people to, yes, censor themselves. I censor myself; Friendshipper, I think you do the same, because I've never seen you being mean to people! I think everyone ought to censor themselves to some extent; you need not say everything that drifts across your mind! I'm not saying others should stop posts preemptively.

when did I EVER say that you can't defend yourself?
That's why I asked--because I wasn't sure that was what you meant by "don't like, don't read"! See, my problems with this rule come when I read something unexpected. In fic, it's been a porn story rated PG or PG-13, and a rape story with no "non-con" warning. I don't generally go into posts expecting to be upset--but yes, I'm afraid if a friend said, "They're saying something nasty about you at this link!", I'd go read it.

Indeed, I'm glad that you verified that you are saying one can defend oneself, because I started following this discussion elsewhere, and I saw at least one person who did seem to say the reverse! No one should say anything negative on your journal--and if they slam you on their journal, you shouldn't argue there, because then you're being negative on theirs. I also saw what looked like "no one can tell me I'm rude because we have no definition of rude." I was gobsmacked. I didn't think you subscribed to these theories, but I wanted to be sure!

Absolutely! That's why I'm careful whom I choose as my friends! :-) It's when I venture out into communities or sometimes follow links to non-friends' pages that I find myself in very unpleasant places. (I try to keep my head down in such venues!)

I guess the question then is, when is it nitpicking and when does it just become abuse?

I think nitpicking can actually be useful. I "nitpick" published academic articles in class, and I figure my publications are fair game: examine the argument, find the flaws, talk about how it could be made better or how someone could write a counterargument. Fanfic is the same: find flaws, talk about what would make it better, or how someone could write a better story having learned from this one (maybe rejecting a premise, shifting a characterization, plugging a loophole). I might feel hurt if anyone nitpicked my article or my story--but I don't have a right to stop them, and, if they're not attacking me (yes, it's subjective), I don't have a right to complain. I have a right to respond. (I'd also be really curious about what they nitpicked!) I've had reviews of my book published (one of which hurt like heck), and I've seen people respond to my book and my articles in their own, so I'm very familiar with the feeling. I disagree with most of the criticisms, but none of them attacked me. I have, however, seen unfair attacks in print too, and I'd be very upset if someone did that to me--and might contact an editor to respond, or, if they've actually got factual flaws, ask for a retraction.

That's where the Internet is really different. I've seen critiques of stories, and I've done some (not of other people's stories on my LJ, though). I've also seen "this author must be brain-damaged" and obscenities. I'm from the big city; I don't have a problem with language per se. But when someone starts calling an author words you can't say in prime time, who gets anything out of that? Those kinds of things don't appear in print, nor should they. So I'd like to add to my guidelines above:
4. If you wouldn't want your words to appear in print, where you can't delete them, don't post them. (Hint: it's a lot harder to delete posts than you think; people may have copied them!)

I'd go with

vecturist too: would you say it in person?

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