sholio: sun on winter trees (Kokopelli-rainbow)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2007-03-22 08:51 pm
Entry tags:

Meta-meta: on fanfic, genre and categorization

The recent conversation about gen and shipping on Abyssinia's LJ, spawning its own meta elsewhere including Synecdochic's take on the discussion's references to her fic, got me thinking about a number of things, not the least of them being why we spend so much time sitting around at our computers meta-ing about fan stuff.

But when it comes right down to it, fan meta is just another form of sitting around the dorm room (cafeteria, coffee shop, teahouse, bedroom, Acropolis or wherever) and hashing out ideas. I bet the ancient Greeks spent at least as much time talking about their wives, the sorry state of politics in 400 B.C., or the hot naked boys practicing their javelin throws down the hill, as they did on figuring out the principles of geometry.

College and I had an unfriendly parting of the ways, but one of the few things that does make me look back on it fondly is the dorm-living experience, and the many late nights sitting around in the lounge having wild conversations about anything and everything. I wish sometimes that I'd taken notes, because I think I'd hardly have to write another original line of dialogue again as long as I live; everything I need is in there somewhere.

And one of the reasons why I really love those kinds of conversations is that they make me question why I believe the things I do, and where my convictions on some of this stuff comes from ... and start reassessing them if they don't make sense. The discussion on gen got me to thinking about that.

As a reader of fanfic, I usually want to know ahead of time what I'm getting into. I want to know if a given fic is gen or slash, what characters it has, what pairings it has, if it's a deathfic, if it's angsty, if it's AU, if it's got explicit sex or not. And here's what makes this weird: my tastes in original fiction tend to go exactly the other way. I hate spoilers and love to be surprised; I adore genre mixing and seeing odd things put together in new and interesting ways; and most importantly, I really hate categorization of original fiction! I hate the fact that to find all of (taking an example of an author who writes widely disparate kinds of works) Madeline L'Engle's books, you'd have to look in YA and SF and literature and non-fiction, and maybe other places as well. I would loathe seeing published fiction as tightly categorized as is done with fanfic: a book going on one shelf if it's got a heterosexual romance in it, or another shelf if one of the main characters dies in the end, or another shelf if it's got a gay pairing, and yet another shelf if somebody gets raped. That's not just insanely stupid, but stifling to both writers and readers. Just the way that books get niched by their publishers into extremely broad categories like science fiction or romance is bad enough, because so many of the really good ones are genre-defying. What genre is Mark Helprin's modern-fairytale-esque "Winter's Tale"? Is "Catch-22" a satire or a war novel ... or both? Orwell's "Animal Farm" tends to get shelved in young adult while Alan Dean Foster's brainless adolescent fantasies get put in the adult SF section alongside Clarke and Heinlein ... what the hell is up with that?

I appreciate genre and categorization in published fiction from a reader's standpoint because it *does* help me find the sorts of thing I like to read. But I also hate it, as an institution, because of the way it chokes creativity -- not just because genre makes it difficult for something truly different to get published and find a readership, but because it's hard for writers to think outside the box. You discover that you like fantasy, so you read a ton of what the bookstore categorizes as "fantasy", and so you start writing your own novels and they end up picking up the fantasy trappings without the depth. And they sell. So you write more. And kids pick up and read them, and thus you end up with the umpteen gazillionth re-iteration of The Adventures of Blandman in Generotopia.

In light of all of this, it truly doesn't make sense to me that I want to shoebox fan fiction so completely. So now I'm trying to figure out why that might be -- why I lean so much more heavily on genre and category in fanfic to sort out the ones I want to read. For me, I think, a lot of it comes down to the presence, in fanfic, of the "one true path": canon, the source from which all else springs. And in fanfic, much more than published fiction, there are a lot of deviations from canon that are due to lack of skill or knowledge or self-restraint on the writer's part, as opposed to a desire to explore deliberate deviations from the source material. Author X doesn't write Rodney as a soppy doormat because she consciously wants to explore Western social norms of emotional expression and the way that varying this pattern can cause feedback that changes the existing canonical relationships; she writes him that way because she's 17 and really sucks at depicting an adult male viewpoint. Author Y doesn't write Sheppard and McKay as lovers because she wants to explore a subversion of our heteronormative society and gender roles; she writes them that way because she gets off on the idea of two straight guys having sex with each other. Not that there's really any reason why you can't do that, but it does tend to show, and there's a certain amount of logic in using genre categorization to avoid the types of stories where my least favorite fanwank fantasies tend to be concentrated. Avoiding deathfic (I don't always, but I often do) might mean I'll miss some real gems, but it's a quick way to avoid all the horrible, OOC, teen-angsty "OMG, I'm so sad, I think I'll go slash my wrists now" fics. 9 out of 10 rapefics squick me hideously, and it's not really worth it to me to wade through a sea of rape fantasies in order to find the occasional fic that uses rape as a means to explore character and society.

With Synecdochic's story, I never in a million years would have figured that she'd put Sheppard and McKay together as a couple in order to do a deliberate subversion of societal roles and then have that play out in subtle ways in the way that Rodney related to the society around him. I'd seen it as a straight-up slash genre thing, where sexual love trumps all other kinds of love (which is the feeling I often get from a lot of slash). Knowing that it's deliberate and was done with calculated effect, and for a reason having nothing to do with romantic love being deeper than platonic love ... you know, it *does* change how I feel about the story.

To be honest, I still don't think that it worked all that well, because neither I nor (as far as I can tell) most of her other readers really figured out what she was up to ... but part of this, I think, is because slash, as a genre, is framed a certain way and exists for certain reasons, and "Freedom" doesn't really do that, BUT ... most people already respond to slash a certain way (whether it's for or against or "OMG John & Rodney 4evah!" or "ewww, that's not my OTP, I'm not going to read any more"). In other words, it's kind of like using Nazis or Muslims or rape victims or anything else that people have strong reactions to; people are going to be so polar about it that you'll get a lot of people reacting to the story in ways you never intended, just because they already have a huge host of preconceived notions about Nazis and about the sort of person who would put them into a story. Your message kind of gets lost in the "Gah!" reaction.

Anyway, I think that between all the musing I've been doing lately on genre and categorization, and Synecdochic's own musings on the reasons behind the narrative decisions that she made in "Freedom", I think I actually *am* sold on the idea that it's not necessarily automatic for a story that hinges around two canonically straight characters having sex to translate to "slash genre", even though 95% of the time that would be the case ... any more than it's automatic for the presence of magic in a story to make it fantasy -- most of the time one would tend to imply the other, but I don't think that "Gulliver's Travels" or "Hamlet" are fantasy in the same sense that Book XVIII of the Adventures of Thorg the Barbarian is fantasy. You can use genre trappings as a tool and not just because the author likes the genre and wants to write more of it -- and what you end up with is a story with a very different feel than the other kind. Does that make sense?

But the caveat is that if you do that, you have a lot of work to "sell" the story to the other audience -- if I put ghosts and goblins in Manhattan, I'm going to have a hard uphill road to convince a mainstream, non-fantasy audience that they need to be there and aren't the reason for the story. This isn't because my readers are being jerks about it; it's just that it *will* take a little more convincing for them than for people who already read and like fantasy and are likely to say, "Oh look, an orc chasing a jogger through Central Park, cool!" and move on, as opposed to a non-fantasy reader who gets stuck on the "But there ARE no orcs in Central Park!" aspect of it.

As a gen reader, I don't think that "Freedom" quite convinced me of that necessity, as it was supposed to have done. But I'm quite a lot more open to the idea that you can have the trappings of a genre without necessarily being a part of that genre, depending on why those trappings are present, what role they serve in the story, and how closely the story as a whole conforms to the tenets of the genre overall. It's clearly a "your mileage may vary" situation, but I *do* kinda see the hypocrisy of applying a much looser standard of categorization to published fiction than to fanfic -- even if part of the reason why that double standard exists (again, IMHO) is because so much fanfic is basically ... porn. Emotional, sexual, platonic or otherwise, most fanfic is fantasy taking tangible form, in a much more direct kind of way than published fiction (where the same is also often true, but filtered through a lens of plot and theme and editors and bookstores.) You have to do SOMETHING to sort your own particular fantasies out from the ones that squick.

Obviously I'm not just singling out slash writers here. The vast majority of the fanfic I write, and read, is essentially wanking material for gen h/c fans; I'm well aware of this. I like to think mine are well-written wankfests with a good plot, but I'm not kidding myself -- I don't stick Sheppard and McKay in a hole in the ground and torture them because I want to make some kind of grand statement about human nature or want to retell the story of the Labyrinth of Crete in a sci-fi setting (though that would be kind of cool, come to think of it); I do it because I have a kink for half-dead guys hugging each other, and if I'm going to blow every evening for a week writing a story I can't ever sell or use in a portfolio, I'd damn well better be getting some warm fuzzies out of it. Not that I'm a total hack, not that I don't ever write fanfic that's supposed to be "serious", but at the end of the day, I write fic for fun, whereas I write original fiction for fun AND profit AND to chase out some of the demons in my own head. Fic ... it's just escapism for me.

And I tend to approach fanfic, as a reader, in the expectation that it's written largely for fantasy purposes, rather than to explore a serious plot or theme, and that it's written within its genre branding, and that it *can* be branded in that way. In some ways I also do the same with published fiction, at least to the extent that I do most of my browsing in certain sections of the bookstore because I know that I'm a lot more likely to find a book I like on the SF shelves than than the Harlequin romance shelves. But the difference is, with published fiction I see genre as sort of a necessary evil, and broader is better; whereas with fic, I want categorization and lean on it and get annoyed when writers either refuse to categorize themselves or play the genre-switch game on purpose. And there's a definite hypocrisy in that.

Goodness, this is a lot of meta. I'm going to bed.

[Side note: I have no clue what gender Synecdochic is ... and no way to prove the gender of anyone else I know online, either. I just use "she" as my usual generic pronoun, especially when I'm talking about fanfic writers because most of the ones I know *are* female.]

EDIT: Due to the potentially flameworthy topic of this discussion and the new people coming in from Metafandom, I wanted to mention that I'll be moderating with a fairly heavy hand. Please feel free to speak your mind as long as you're polite, reasonable and can do so without specifically insulting other people in the discussion. Also please be aware that this is a gen fan's journal and the opinions expressed herein tend to be more gen-friendly than slash-friendly. However, as long as you're polite and willing to listen to other people's viewpoints, you'll get no pestering from me. ^^

[identity profile] gaiaanarchy.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 08:57 am (UTC)(link)
I read mainly slash and I write a whole lot of slash. This is all very strange, considering that in the non-fanfic world I wouldn't touch something with the plot of a lot of the slashfic I read with a ten foot pole. McShep in particular has a thing for Harlequinesque AUs. I often feel as though I'm doing it out of habit. I meets my checklist - more than a certain number of words, mcshep, well-written. I at least skim it and if the plot's griping, then I read it. But I don't learn from it, because really, most fics are kinda the same.

There are some amazing gen fic out there - cool scifi ideas, characterizations, historical truths (I actually based an answer on an upper-level econ test on one), all-around awesomeness. But most gen fics are a shameless excuse for whump (and I will actually skim them and just read the whump without paying attention the plot at all). Sometimes there's a little action-adventure thrown in there, but there are really only a few that have really stuck with me. 'Your Cowboy Days Are Over' and 'Twelve Things They (will someday) Say in the Pegasus Galaxy' for example, though there are many others.

There are also some absolutely astounding slashfics out there, that take a relationship and the scifi premise and use it to really say something about life, the universe, and everything. I actually don't think 'Freedom's' is one of those. It's gripping and entertaining and well-written but if it were just a book I picked up one day, I wouldn't remember it. There are some authors that I think really take slash and use it to do amazing things. I'm pretty in love with trinityofone and in_wintertime and those who like don't my creeping their audience out. And probably the most thinky fic I read in fandom is slash - Ardhanishvara, which really wouldn't touch me as much without the porn.

And in my own fics, I'm the first to admit that I don't have the timing for suspenseful action adventure, but I still want to send the boys where no man has gone before. Looking for a plot? Romance always seems to work.

With one exception, all of the fics I'm proudest of are slash. My favorite story of mine is about warcrimes and gender norms in the military and good people doing horrible things. It's McShep because I needed to take something good and twist it. I also did McKay/Hermiod to explore the idea of physical verses emotional attraction.

But then there are those that I'd much rather write as gen. I just wrote one about a device that lets people see who is going to ascend and I pulled a 'Freedom's' in a fic about John living among a community of Wraith turned into humans, because they're both slowly unwinding mysteries, which put a lot of burden on the reader to figure out what's going on and be suitably creeped out, and I know that if I don't either whump someone or label them as slash, nobody is going to stick with it, no matter how cool the payoff. Ideally, these would be short stories but I know where readership lies. It's also helpful, because while I love what you can do with the short story genre, there's not that element of surprise you can get with fanfic, because you have to create the characters and the audience then knows that you've created them with a purpose.

Most every fic I've written has had themes and morals to the story and intentions other than sheppard and mckay making whoopee, but while slashing liberates me to not worry about lenghty plotiness, it also does depress me, seeing as how the most popular story I've written was a very sappy AU chock full of cliches (though I got them in the end).

So, as a reader, I end up reading a lot of crap to dig out the little gems that are really innovated fic that take the world and use it to create something amazing. At first I thought I was reading all this romantic crap to satisfy some wacky inner girly girl who never gets to express herself, but your comments really made me look at my reading in response to my reccing and what I like in literature and I'm beginning to see that while I like porn and I like whumpage, I mostly read the things I do because I'm anal and I'll be pissed if I miss that one awesome story that everyone looks over because its not gen or slash or has rape or a deathfic or whatever.
ratcreature: RatCreature's toon avatar (Default)

Re: your side note

[personal profile] ratcreature 2007-03-23 10:07 am (UTC)(link)
FWIW, she identifies herself as female in this post about her LJ: "[...]there are enough people working here now that it's not as personally-identifying as it used to be back when I started this journal, when I was one of two women on staff[...]"

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 10:49 am (UTC)(link)
I shouldn't respond to such a detailed analysis in point form but...

1) I have always hated being "pidgeon-holed" myself. I think that I resent people thinking that because they know one or two things about me, they think they know what makes me tick (eg. to keep with your theme, I resent people thinking that because I have little interest in slash it's because my mind is closed against the idea of two same-sex characters in a lvong relationship - frankly, don't put your issues onto me, mate!).

2) On the other hand, the very nature of analysis is to see patterns and to infer one fact from other facts, to make judgements on the evidence you have (which is never the complete evidence). And I do love to analyse in these ways. I think the key is to remember that all such analysis is theory and not the established "fact" that some people seem to think it is. I do believe that is how fanon is generated.

3) With original fiction, I think I prefer to be surprised because I go into it expecting or even hoping that sort of thing. In fanfiction, the revelation that two canonically straight characters are going to be in a gay relationship fails to impress me as a "narrative statement" because it's been done so often before. People talk about Kirk/Spock and I think if I'd been around then, I might have even found that interesting because it would have seemed new back then. Wincest is not new. It's the same old, same old - just the fandom involved don't care even if the protagonists are brothers. Deathfic isn't new. Gender-swapping isn't new. Non-con isn't new. Mpreg isn't new. It would take something genuinely new in fanfic to impress me with "exploring boundaries" - and frankly I think I'll be a long time waiting.

4) Frankly, when people say their fics are high-minded explorations of the intricancies of social phenomena, etc - well, I just think "wanker". (Harsh? Moi?) I've become quite the disciple of "show, don't tell". So if you had to tell me that you were subverting the cliche to show how assumptions about sexuality can lead to conflict yada yada yada - well, if you had to explain it, then you failed, buddy! But if I read something and, without any heavy-handed prompting from the author, think "OMG! She's sending up all those emo cliches by presenting it as a genuine AU in a story with a real logical narrative!" - that impresses the hell out of me!

5) I kinda wish that I didn't feel that I had to say "gen-preference" - but I feel I do because if you don't, then there is an expectation that you will "follow the norm" and frankly the norm in fandom these days is either porn or sappy romance either as het or more frequently as m/m slash. I hate following the crowd. I always have. I want to be me and being different does reassure me of my own individuality (or at least give me the illusion of individuality). I don't tend to label the fannish stuff I make as "gen" because unshippyness is my default setting. I post to "gen" sites, so the people who find my stuff there would know it's gen. I don't care if others find my vids slashy, even if that wasn't what I intended when I made them. But I got a comment at my LJ recently asking if a WIP fic I was writing was "gen" - because of my default setting I'd never mentioned it. In a way, I was slightly irked that I now felt that I had to. But yeah, now some of my fics at my own LJ are labelled "gen" which is new for me - because apparently, if you don't say so, some people assume it will eventually become het or slash further along in the story.

6) I have no clue what gender Synecdochic is ... and no way to prove the gender of anyone else I know online, either. I assumed that because "her" handle ended in "chic" that she was a chick. But that's just an assumption. And I have actually had people mistake me for a guy once or twice. But no, in case you were unsure, I'm female. ;-)
ext_840: john and rodney, paperwork (Default)

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/ 2007-03-23 01:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I appreciate genre and categorization in published fiction from a reader's standpoint because it *does* help me find the sorts of thing I like to read.

Plus, there are so many other markers you can use with books to figure out if it's your thing, or worth taking a risk: the cover art, the jacket copy, the blurbs; even the size and feel of the book tell a story about what's inside. (Reading a few pages, too!) I can avoid great swathes of things I *know* I won't like on a purely visual basis - as somebody said, never read anything that's got a strand of pearls and a pair of underwear on the cover.

Fic, I think, uses the headers to do the same thing, in a way; most serious fic readers know how to use them as meta-data in the same way serious book readers do. As Yin said, three beta's doesn't bode well; I am really pleased that people do warn for the 2 or 3 big squicks I have.

Beyond that, though, fic is comfort reading. It hits a different set of emotional buttons than, say, English police procedurals do, but at the end of the day it gets read for pretty much the same reason, during days that are already too short, and so, yeah, the labels let me prioritise. And I may miss stuff when it's first published, but SGA is like a bookstore I go to every week: I'll probably find everything I want to read eventually.

(Like your fic!)

ext_2207: (Default)

[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 03:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I never in a million years would have figured that she'd put Sheppard and McKay together as a couple in order to do a deliberate subversion of societal roles and then have that play out in subtle ways in the way that Rodney related to the society around him. I'd seen it as a straight-up slash genre thing, where sexual love trumps all other kinds of love (which is the feeling I often get from a lot of slash). Knowing that it's deliberate and was done with calculated effect, and for a reason having nothing to do with romantic love being deeper than platonic love ... you know, it *does* change how I feel about the story.

Yes. I could be imagining it, but I think either in her post or in one of the comments, she admits that she wasn't even fully thinking that idea out (that it was a way for Rodney to see around societal privilege) when she wrote it - that it was only later that she realized the extent to which it was playing a factor in her own story.

And, reading her explanation was great because it answered my question of why put Rodney in this relationship with John - but I'm not convinced the story did what it was supposed to, and, actually, I'm not convinced the relationship would have necessarily had that effect. Atlantis is a small, enclosed community and is going to be a different environment from Earth. From Rodney's "widow" comment and other story hints, I got the impression that the relationship was common knowledge on Atlantis. I also got no impression that anybody reacted poorly to the relationship and I'd be very willing to believe that the culture of Atlantis would not have reacted the same as the culture on Earth - that nothing would have directly happened to make Rodney learn about this "privilege" thing.

So, nothing in her story indicated to me that Rodney got this different perspective on society. I had impressions of a different perspective shift - of looking at the bigger picture, at colonization, at the way the military ran things, the trends they were aiming towards, and not liking that. I didn't read the relationship with John as having a huge change on Rodney's worldview.

So, hearing those author's notes changes how I see "Freedom" but without them - my reading was yours - the same old "the only close relationship that really matters is sexual love" that dominates most slash, which is why all the other aspects of the story affected me more than the relationship with John did - Rodney's relationships with academia, with the military, with dealing with his past actions and his determination to move on and leave a legacy are what I took away from the story.

As for categorization - it is odd how fanfic chooses to categorize. Why is our main level of categorization divided into gen/het/slash rather than, say, AU/non-AU or Angst/humor/drama/action/romance or...all sorts of other ways you could choose to categorize? I think that's a big question I've come across this week, and I'm not sure of the answer.
ext_1981: (Default)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:40 pm (UTC)(link)
And, reading her explanation was great because it answered my question of why put Rodney in this relationship with John - but I'm not convinced the story did what it was supposed to, and, actually, I'm not convinced the relationship would have necessarily had that effect. Atlantis is a small, enclosed community and is going to be a different environment from Earth. From Rodney's "widow" comment and other story hints, I got the impression that the relationship was common knowledge on Atlantis. I also got no impression that anybody reacted poorly to the relationship and I'd be very willing to believe that the culture of Atlantis would not have reacted the same as the culture on Earth - that nothing would have directly happened to make Rodney learn about this "privilege" thing.

EXACTLY. (I love it when people are more articulate than I am.) I can't really reply in depth because I have to go to work, but I think this is perhaps *the* big thing about that explanation that doesn't make sense to me -- the reason why, for me, the story fails on that level. I really don't think that a kind of abstract "hey, now I'm a member of an oppressed group, and wow, now I have sympathy for all these other historically oppressed groups" thing would work for Rodney AT ALL ... especially since Atlantis doesn't really seem to have the kind of "oppression" that would clout Rodney upside his "privileged" head. Seeing a bunch of local people killed by US/Atlantis policies wouldn't be enough to change his worldview, but falling in love with a teammate in a social environment that doesn't appear to discourage that sort of relationship *would* be? And making the jump from gay rights to colonialism is such a huge leap that I just don't buy it ... and I don't really perceive that subtext in the story. But after reading her explanation, I do actually buy the idea that you *can* have a relationship that would be traditionally categorized as slash without the story itself being slash, per se ... though I'm not necessarily convinced this story is an example of it.
ext_1981: (Default)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Gotta go to work in a minute here, so a longer reply will have to wait, but somehow you've managed to say in one sentence what I spent 3000 words trying to figure out last night...

In fanfiction, the revelation that two canonically straight characters are going to be in a gay relationship fails to impress me as a "narrative statement" because it's been done so often before.

Yes! I *will* buy that a person might intend it that way, but since 99% of slash writers don't, and since slash is what EVERYBODY is writing, what you're really doing is pinning the central theme of your story on a cliche. The social norms of fanfic writers are quite different from those of society in general.

For the other half of what I wish I'd been smart enough to figure out and articulate last night, see my answer to Abyssinia below.

(And oh, I do hate the "You don't like slash? Homophobe!" argument. That's like saying that because I don't read romance novels, I must have something against people falling in love in real life. Sheesh.)

Longer and more articulate answer coming this evening.
ext_1981: (Default)

Re: your side note

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah. Good to know I had the pronoun right, although I don't really mind if she's male or female or an asexual being from Mars -- I just need a pronoun to use for her that isn't "it" or one of those hopelessly pretentious gender-neutral ones of modern coinage.

[identity profile] parisntripfan.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 05:55 pm (UTC)(link)
(And oh, I do hate the "You don't like slash? Homophobe!" argument. That's like saying that because I don't read romance novels, I must have something against people falling in love in real life. Sheesh.)

Same here. Over the years I have realized that my real problem with slash/homosexual romance is not the homosexual part but the romance. I am not a big fan of schmaltz - and a number of fics both het and slash go this route.


For the most part I am not a shipper. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part I am not a big fan of them. Now if it is a canon romance I will include references to it a fic I may write, but it has never been the central part of my fics. Again, I haven't really posted any Atlantis fics, but in one of my older fandoms (Star Trek Voyager) I wrote a number of fics where there was a particular pairing.(Paris/Torres) It was a canon romance, but looking at my fics I can't say any of them were romance fics. The focus on the story was always something else - for the most part some other relationship.
ext_1981: (Default)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 06:38 pm (UTC)(link)
But then there are those that I'd much rather write as gen. [snip] ... and I know that if I don't either whump someone or label them as slash, nobody is going to stick with it, no matter how cool the payoff.

See ... I don't *get* that, the whole idea of sticking incongruous elements into the story or intentionally mis-labeling it just to gain readers. That's so far outside my own creative boundaries that I just can't even wrap my mind around it. If the story reads better as gen, isn't it more creatively honest to write it as gen? I've read quite a few slash stories where the slash felt very grafted-on to me, and though I may have enjoyed other elements of the story, found them interesting or insightful or whatnot, I'm probably not going to review or rec such a story because to me it didn't hold together as a whole. You can have a great idea in a story, but if the rest of it feels cobbled together, as a story it's going to fail -- or, worse, you'll drive away readers who just fixate on the genre elements; like me, for example, bypassing a lot of slash stories that might be otherwise good simply because of the slash elements. (And yeah, I know people review schmalz in droves. That's just people. People love Grey's Anatomy and Desperate Housewives, but that doesn't mean they're my cup of tea or what I want to write.)

For example, my story The Man in Black and the Baker's Daughter (http://community.livejournal.com/sga_flashfic/483105.html) -- I really think that it's one of the best ones I've written, and that it deals with a rather uncomfortable issue that isn't addressed on the show nearly as often as it should be: the fallout from the main characters' activities offworld. (Which, incidentally, I JUST realized in the process of looking up the URL for it, you reviewed way back in January and I never replied! Urk!) For those who haven't read it, that story deals exclusively with an OC and Ford, and yeah, it's nowhere near as popular as my more "mainstream" stories. But there is no way I would have sexied it up by sticking in a whump subplot with more popular characters, because that is absolutely NOT what that story is about. If that means that a lot fewer people read it, then I'm perfectly okay with that, because I told the story that I wanted to tell, in the manner that I wanted to tell it.

most gen fics are a shameless excuse for whump ...

Oh, I absolutely don't deny that that's true! But most slash fics that I've read are equally shameless about using the plot as a pretext to stick two characters together. And this isn't to say that you can't get a good story out of it; for example, I really like [livejournal.com profile] astolat's "Time in a Bottle" even though it's quite obvious that the trapped-in-VR scenario (as nicely as it's executed) is an excuse for hot mansex more than an actual plot.

And just so we're clear, it's not that I think there's anything *wrong* with writing wankfic of whatever stripe. Actually, I think what most writers do (fanfic, or not) is to identify what they personally like in stories and then write their own. That's exactly what I'm doing, and I'm not in any way ashamed of it. I guess this just makes it doubly baffling that someone would write in a genre that doesn't come naturally to them, or insert elements that don't belong in the story, for no other reason than to get more readers or "because it ought to be that way". See, THAT is where genre becomes a straitjacket, and that is precisely what it is about categorization of fiction that I really loathe.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 06:51 pm (UTC)(link)
You know what's hilarious about this is that when I first saw your online pseudonym, before I'd really interacted with you much at all, I assumed that you must 'ship Paris and Trip. (Which would be kind of odd, seeing as they're on different shows, but they do exist in the same *universe*, at least.) Of course, you know what they say about people who ASS-ume ...

Anyway, my personal preferences in reading material do lean way, way towards platonic over romantic relationships -- not that I can't enjoy a well-written romance, but it's a harder sell for me than a friendship story ... and a non-canon romance between two characters who are platonic (or, at most, experience only mild UST) on the show is a harder sell yet. At heart, a slash story is not any odder than taking two characters who are a couple on the show and breaking them up -- e.g. writing a story in which Wash and Zoe's marriage is really just a marriage of convenience and they're not attracted to one another. But people do this very rarely, and when they do, it tends to read as character bashing of one form or another.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 07:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Still at work, but entertaining myself during the boring parts by thinking. (Always dangerous.)

People talk about Kirk/Spock and I think if I'd been around then, I might have even found that interesting because it would have seemed new back then. Wincest is not new. It's the same old, same old - just the fandom involved don't care even if the protagonists are brothers. Deathfic isn't new. Gender-swapping isn't new. Non-con isn't new. Mpreg isn't new. It would take something genuinely new in fanfic to impress me with "exploring boundaries" - and frankly I think I'll be a long time waiting.

See, I'm thinking this is the main problem here -- that the author is ignoring the last 30+ years of fannish history and expecting her audience to react the way that a non-fanfic-reading audience would have reacted to seeing a relationship like this play out in canon. But obviously that's not realistic. At all. I think she'd have gotten much more the reaction she'd wanted (and had it look less like pandering) if she hadn't gone with a really common, "popular" pairing. If she'd done, I don't know, McKay/Hermiod or McKay/Caldwell, I think it would have come a lot closer to giving the reader the idea that this really shook up Rodney's world without saying so. As it is, the problem is that the relationship doesn't require any sort of equivalent paradigm shift for the reader -- it's passe, even primarily-gen readers have seen pretty much every conceivable variation on a John/Rodney relationship that *doesn't* shake up either guy's worldview in that way, so it's a flawed narrative choice to assume that the reader would *know* without being told that in this one case, out of 10,000 Sheppard/McKay stories, the relationship is really supposed to be treated with all the baggage that a superior/subordinate, straight guy/straight guy relationship would be treated in real life -- when usually, the exact opposite is true in slash fic.

There are a few issues that I would love to explore in original fic (e.g. incest) that I probably will NEVER write into a fanfic, because it's overdone here and it's got all that baggage along with it.
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
And oh, I do hate the "You don't like slash? Homophobe!" argument. That's like saying that because I don't read romance novels, I must have something against people falling in love in real life. Sheesh.)

No kidding. It took three days over at my insane discussion post before someone told me "you have to agree that from a certain PoV your argument could be read as homophobic."

And, sure, I'll agree that from a certain PoV my argument could be a lot of things. But I don't agree that "if canon doesn't tell me two characters are in a relationship, I consider a relationship between them to not be canonical" and "if a character is consistently shown to be attracted to members of the opposite sex and not of the same sex I assume they are heterosexual" translates into "I hate homosexuals."

There's a HUGE logic jump there. I'm also being smart and so not taking the bait to argue with that commenter.

[identity profile] with-apostrophe.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Why is our main level of categorization divided into gen/het/slash rather than, say, AU/non-AU or Angst/humor/drama/action/romance or...all sorts of other ways you could choose to categorize?

Perhaps because fanfic (or at least, SGA fanfic) is dominated by ships, of whatever nature? It had been stated somewhere above this that fanfic is a result of fans wanting to see factor X expounded upon in the context of the universe of their chosen TV show/film/book/pop band or whatever. Factor X is usually a ship in SGA.

"AU" is a problematic label in itself. What is considered AU? There are hundreds of fics out there which I consider to be AU because they disagree with my interpretation of what happened in the source material. The author considers their story to be consistent with canon, I do not, but I like the story and believe it could happen that way in an AU, just not in this universe. How then do we decide that it's AU? I really have no idea.

I honestly don't know what the answer is to categorising fic. Maybe we do need to get into the nitty gritty and be super-specific? Therefore, my crack!fic AU 'The Boys From Atlantis' might be -
"Gen, crack!fic, total AU, with SG-1 crossover, brief mentions of het relationships - some pairings being canonically contradictory - but nothing more heated than an alcohol fueled kiss is described. Could be read as slash, (but then nearly everything can)."
Then again, maybe not. Maybe every labelling system is as broken as the nest one and we just have to make the most of the bad job that came with the fandom?
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I really don't think that a kind of abstract "hey, now I'm a member of an oppressed group, and wow, now I have sympathy for all these other historically oppressed groups" thing would work for Rodney AT ALL ... especially since Atlantis doesn't really seem to have the kind of "oppression" that would clout Rodney upside his "privileged" head.

Yep. Also:
* Yes, Rodney is in many ways privileged, but in some ways he isn't. I saw this elsewhere (I don't remember where - it's possible you said it even), but Rodney's intelligence actually can really make him unprivileged. Rodney is super-intelligent, hyper-aware of it and hyper-vocal about it, and in most or North American Society that's going to make him an outcast pretty quickly. (I'm not nearly as smart as Rodney and not nearly as vocal about my intelligence, but I've had people flat out tell me that they treated me like crap because they thought I was smart - I can only imagine what Rodney's dealt with).

* Rodney is, however, privileged on Atlantis. He's the head of science, he's a member of the top gate team, he's like...a Lord of a Feudal society (um, not really) and his "husband" in "Freedom" is at his same level of high status. This gives him a lot of privilege and lee-way for his behavior while on Atlantis, and I think gives him a better chance of getting away with the relationship.

* Not only were we given no indication that Rodney and John were treated differently/badly for having an open relationship, but also, there was no indication Rodney remotely learned from, was involved in, or identified with the larger queer community. No indication he considers himself a member of this oppressed group.

* To me, Rodney has pretty blatantly built up a thick shield of "I don't care what other people think about me" which, well, isn't true - but he's used to people not liking him and doesn't try to make friends or expect them to like him - I don't see it getting worse with the relationship.

So, yes, I agree with you that the idea that a relationship can serve a purpose beyond the relationship, yada yada, but in this case, I thought a lot of other things had a much bigger impact on Rodney. I think he got a bigger picture idea of how his actions affect people (the universe), on what sacrifice means, on where he stands ethically, on the goals of the military, etc, and I don't think any of those really came from loving John.

[identity profile] gaiaanarchy.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 09:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I guess when I say that there are stories that I'd rather have written as gen, I don't mean that I just sort of threw the relationship in there as a random unneccessary element (something I frequently complain about while reviewing) but that the underlying concept or idea is very gen at heart. With City of Man, I wanted to write about the idea of predestination and a device that lets people see who will and who will not ascend. It's a story that begins with Radek discovering an unusual device that makes certain people glow when you look at them. I would have liked to do it as gen because it works that way, but when I decided to make it slash, I got to write a lost and unfullfilled Elizabeth looking at John and Rodney through it and wondering if as someone who's not chosen, she can have that.

For me the creative process is very much a stream of themes and goals and plots and elements all sort of thrown together and spitting a story out. Making a story slash has never hurt the quality of the story. Most of the time it strengthens it. I could have written 'Nobody Remembers Nanjing' as gen and had pretty much the same turn of events (it's written very much like a gen story, with multiple plotlines and different POVs, OCs that aren't there to play matchmaker, villains, suspense, friendships, no porn), but the intensity wouldn't have been there. I couldn't have written John calling Kolya a faggot and have the same impact that it did (it's actually probably better labeled slash, just because gen readers tend to squick a hell of a lot more easily and I may have gotten spit roasted for language alone).

And that's not to say that I don't leave the slash out when in needs to be left out - like the Man in Black or other fics about Ford (I did an SGA/Fight Club fusion-y thing about Ford that was very gen, and despite smaller readership, I was in love with it).

I do feel like the categories and the readership one gains from writing in different ones serves as a limiting factor on the creative process, but I don't feel as though I'm selling out by writing what the audience wants. I get annoyed when I have to sift through crap to find good stories or if my favorite pieces get decreased number of reviews for being what they are, but after having mckay and sheppard have a relationship about 50 times without them ever having the same one, I feel as though limits like that are better read as challenges - e.g. can I do this with this relationship, still have people read it, and get my point across too? And for me, giving up on a gen fic that nobody reads (yes, this is inevitably what happens whenever I try to go this route) feels a lot more like wanking than writing a more creative slash fic that just happen to add some porn to keep everyone interested.

I guess what I'm saying is that genre is a pretty damn big straightjacket, but I don't write what I want to read most of the time (I would write H/C with pretty much no plot in this case, probably some MPreg and episode fixes, noncon. I'm glad people write wankfic for me to read, but I don't much see the point in writing more of the same) but what I want to *write,* which is fics that make people think about them afterwards or discuss them in comments. I wish we had a category for MYSTERY or SHORT-STORY or PHILOSOPHY or COOL CONCEPTS or CHARACTER DRIVEN, but we don't and things are really divided so you just sort of have to pick your camp and run with it. I started the first LJ and yahoogroups for McShep, so I guess I sort of picked my poison early on. Now I see the onscreen relationship as much more buddy and a lot less slash, but I don't like posting on ff.net or getting one or two reviews on a story I've worked really hard on, so even though I'd prefer it if we didn't care if something were gen or slash or het, I'm not a good enough writer for people to read my stuff without a hook like that. Wish I were.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL ... have you heard of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_law) of Usenet discussions? Basically, if a thread goes on long enough, eventually someone is going to call someone else a Nazi, and at that point the thread ends and the person who used the Nazi comparison automatically loses.

I think we could consider the homophobe accusation the "Godwin's Law" of slash discussions.

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Therefore, my crack!fic AU 'The Boys From Atlantis' might be -
"Gen, crack!fic, total AU, with SG-1 crossover, brief mentions of het relationships - some pairings being canonically contradictory - but nothing more heated than an alcohol fueled kiss is described. Could be read as slash, (but then nearly everything can)."


YOU WIN!!!

I hope to come back to this discussion overall later when I've got more time, but for that statement alone, you TOTALLY win!

;-)
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 09:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yeah, I don't think we called it "Godwin's Law" but when I was in college that was a standard rule in any dorm lounge debates - "whoever fist mentions Hitler or Nazis automatically loses" which is fun when you are, you know, discussing World War II or atomic bombs (we were all scientists - atomic bombs was more likely to come up).

But you're right - that's definitely law of slash discussions.

(hell, I kept wanting to compare our discussion to various ways people have of interpreting the bible - literally vs. figuratively and thought that was too close to this kind of disqualifier)
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[identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 11:10 pm (UTC)(link)
Exactly - and it's not just SGA, fanfic is dominated by ships. I wonder if shows that have a lot of canonical romance/sleeping around (so that part is provided by canon) have as much - my guess is they'd have more because they wouldn't have the varied audience shows like Stargate have.

For me AU is something that specifically changes a canon "fact" - not just an interpretation. Which means there are plenty of stories that are technically consistent with canon that I don't feel are necessarily consistent with canon trends/characterization, but I don't call them AU's. But that's me.
I also think we need two terms (Alternate Universe and Alternate Reality, perhaps) to differentiate between what I see as two types of AU's. There's the kind where it's essentially the Atlantis we see, but something is different - like the Daedalus didn't come in "The Siege" or Ford came back with them after "The Hive" or something, and then there's the kind where it's all radically different (John and Rodney are dentists). And to me, those are two very different types of stories.

I like your nitty-gritty. I mean, if the purpose of warnings to to make it so readers can read what they want and avoid what they don't - het/slash/gen doesn't really cut it.

[identity profile] iamrighthere.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 01:46 am (UTC)(link)
Because we can find so much information about a particular work of original fiction from reading, say, the back cover or what's posted on amazon.com and elsewhere, narrowly characterizing it isn't really necessary. With fanfic, the opportunity to adequately explain what a story is about is rather limited, unless the author chooses to include a detailed preface. Thus, readers have come to depend on the common categories to determine if a story might interest them. The genre listings provide precious little info and are limiting, but between them and the summary, the writer tries to "sell" their story and the reader tries to "buy" it. What other choice do we have?

That said, I actually do have larger themes that I'm trying to convey in my stories. That doesn't prevent me from enjoying other stories because most writers, bless their hearts, just want to write for the sheer joy of doing it. Most readers want to read wonderful stories about characters that they love.

Still, I try to be true to the genre, which is usually gen. That is where canon lives. The challenge is exploring weirder ideas without punching out the canon walls too much.

As far as "Freedom" is concerned, I never placed the Rodney/John homosexual relationship against any backdrop other than it intensifying McKay's sense of loss--loss of his lover and loss of Atlantis--and his eventually honoring John and trying to forgive himself by "turning off" the city and through his post-Atlantis work. I didn't "get" the deeper things that she discusses in her meta the several times that I read the story and I wonder how many readers did.

There's too much in all of these metas to discuss fully. I have to stop here because of the overwhelming volume of "discussable" material and my limited ability to type long enough to express myself adequately (I've been unwell lately).

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 01:51 am (UTC)(link)
since slash is what EVERYBODY is writing, what you're really doing is pinning the central theme of your story on a cliche.

That just TOTALLY cracks me up because it is so, so true.

At the risk of offending readers of you LJ (again!), this precisely why I find authors justifying slash fic as an examination of homosexual culture (or the "less-priveleged" status of someone in an openly homosexual relationship) such utter wank. If the point was to "shake things up", then put in an element that genuinely shakes things up. Giving Rodney a gay lover is passe enough (a friend of mine calls him "the little black dress of SGA" because he goes with everyone), but to give him *John Sheppard* as a gay lover when McShep slash so dominates the fandom makes my mind boggle to think she could have expected the readership to interpret it as a crucial "wake-up call" to Rodney.

Seriously, as you say somewhere down below, if that was her intention, then making her "love that finally dares to speak it's name" a romance between John and Rodney is an incredibly flawed choice because that pairing is just so accepted. And if the readership inherently accepts, why should they see that relationship as a privelege-busting, world-changing thing on Atlantis. If she'd gone another route like pairing Rodney with an alien like Ronon (or Hermiod) or just a non-pervasive pairing like (again as you say) McKay/Caldwell, maybe it would have been a lot easier to see it as something altering Rodney's world (aside from being a "one twu wuv" thing, of course) and not "just another McShep pairing".

Okay, going a little off topic, but all writers write with their own agendas and their own sympathies. These sympathies are usually pretty obvious in the fic. When a mutual friend of ours recently said that she likes incest fic because it is "wrong and fucked up", I can accept that's how she's sees it. *BUT* looking at the dominance of Wincest fic in SPN fandom (and similar phenomena in fic for Numb3rs, and presumably other shows like Prison Break) - I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of these writers are examining the "wrongness" of the incestuous relationship. I can believe that they are examining the pain and angst that might be associated with society thinking the incest is wrong. But all fic carries with it a flavour of where the author's sympathies lie and I'm prepared to wager (sight unseen) that 99% of Wincest fic is written with a "poor tortured souls they can't help themselves - and it's hot" sensibility, rather than a "what they are doing is wrong and they *really* shouldn't be doing it" sensibility. (And yeah, I know that I show really read stuff that I'm talking about - as I do with slash in general. But just give me some time to gird my loins and stockpile on the brainsoap before I look into incest fic.)

Telling me that the fandoms most popular slash pairing was included to challenge a character and their view of their role society? *snort*

Telling me that something like non-con or incest is written precisely for its "wrongness"? *double snort*

Writing a "DVD commentary" for your own fic? *mind boggle*

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 02:27 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, and having tossed the word "wanker" around a lot, I think that I should point out that I by no means think that there is anything immoral about wanking. I think it can be a highly pleasurable pastime and definitely well worth the effort expended for it.

*ducks*

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
I think we could consider the homophobe accusation the "Godwin's Law" of slash discussions

Can we call it "Sod-wins law"?

*ducks very low*

[identity profile] derry667.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
Rodney is, however, privileged on Atlantis. He's the head of science, he's a member of the top gate team, he's like...a Lord of a Feudal society (um, not really) and his "husband" in "Freedom" is at his same level of high status. This gives him a lot of privilege and lee-way for his behavior while on Atlantis, and I think gives him a better chance of getting away with the relationship.

I appreciate that the episode hadn't been seen when the story in question was written, but if any story "challenged Rodney's privileged status" it was Martin Gero's "McKay and Mrs Miller" because the presence of his "flashier" alter ego did challenge Rodney's position and status in Atlantis (not intentionally IMHO, but just being there for comparison was challenging). And this episode demonstrated Rodney receiving a slap upside the head due to this challenge to his "privileged status" and he grew from the experience.

I'm not exactly sure of the point I'm making - excpet that if I were to pick a piece of fiction to demonstrate Rodney coming to terms with his "privileged status", it would be this episode from canon.

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