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Meta of +2 Happiness

So let's talk about something fun for a while: h/c.

Working on my latest SGA WIP, I wrote a *ton* of Rodney angst in the most recent chapters, and then cut it, thus inflicting much annoyance on my poor betas, I'm sure.

This got me thinking about the difference between what I like to read, and what I actually write. In a general sense, of course, I always write what I want to read: friendship-driven, fairly plot-oriented hurt-comfort and action-adventure fic. And the tendency to subdivide it further has never really occurred to me until recently, because I've never spent this long in one fandom before, and certainly not in a fandom that catered to my tastes in the way this one does. I mean, usually, if I wanted h/c I had to write it for myself, and being exposed to enough h/c to start figuring out which flavors float my boat is something that had never happened to me before.

Then along comes SGA, the promised land. Over the last year or so of heavy-duty fanning, I've started figuring out specifically what my h/c triggers are -- which situations, which characters, which friendships.

And I've realized that I tend to shy away from writing the specific things that trigger my happy-warm-fuzzies the most. Here's the crux of it: If I start sensing the goo-puddle feeling coming on, then I figure I've gone too far and start chopping out h/c content. Hence, I wrote a couple of fairly h/c-heavy chapters in the WIP and then cut them heavily. I've done that in other stories, and in fact seriously considered cutting the whole hypothermia subplot in "Killing Frost", but eventually decided to leave it in because, well, I am weak, and lifesaving snuggling in a sleeping bag was just too much temptation for me to fight off. But in general, if I'm faced with a plot decision like that, usually I'll err on the side of "cut more" rather than "indulge more".

And now that I'm thinking about it, I'm realizing that SGA isn't the only fandom I've done this in -- looking back on my earlier fics, I can see that I would often steer clear of doing the "comfort" thing with the character that I most wanted to see in that position, instead deflecting attention onto somebody else. I wouldn't exactly say that I *planned* it this way; the injuries were a direct outcome of the plot. But I'm the one in charge of the plot, after all. And for a given partner-pair of characters, there does seem to be a general pattern of me putting the hurt on the one who's *not* the target of hurt and comfort in my private fantasies for the same series. It's not like I'm depriving myself, or anything; it's just that I seem to regard the really hardcore fannish-goo-puddle area as a sort of danger zone where I can't trust myself to be objective enough about the goals of the story. I don't want to see the h/c (pleasant though it is) warping the threads of the plot in around itself, and for that reason I'm a lot harder on myself when I start treading on the territory that *really* pushes my fan buttons.

I find myself feeling oddly guilty about things like the presumed-dead/hypothermia subplot in "Killing Frost", where I feel that the story would probably be stronger if I'd been able to be more objective and cut it out. Or, same thing with the anaphylaxis scene in "Running on Empty". I feel like it shouldn't really be there, because it doesn't really serve the plot; it's basically just in there because the whole idea gave me warm fuzzies. Well, I guess the anaphylaxis scene *does* have a plot purpose, but it's mostly grafted on, because I realized while I was plotting out the story that it could be a trigger for John's memories. But that's really just a rationalization to have that scene in there; I could have done the memory thing a different way. It's really just there for purely personal reasons, and as such, I feel like I should have cut it out -- but mmm, the warm fuzzies, I loved writing it so!

Right now, most of my stalled-out SGA fics are ones with a very heavy h/c plot. I think I just got to the point where I felt like I was going too far with the "hurt" and didn't feel like there was enough plot to justify it.

I also find myself reading stories that go a lot farther with the "hurt" than I'd be willing to go, as a writer; and there's a definite guilt to it -- kind of like porn; I guess it's emotional porn for me -- but I still read them anyway. Although ... it's not really the hurt that gets to me, anyway; it's the comfort. The hurt is mainly effective as a prelude to the friendship/family comfort aspect of the story.

So here are your discussion questions, for the hurt/comfort fans among you:

When you write (or read) h/c, do you consider the story more about the person who is being hurt, or the one who is giving the comfort, or both? That is, if you consider yourself a fan of (x) character, would you rather read (or write) a story in which (x) is injured and pretty much out of it for most of the story, while character (y) takes care of them and acts as the POV character? Or would you consider such a story to be more (y)'s story? For example, if John gets shot in the opening scene and most of the story takes place with John in the infirmary and Rodney angsting over him, is it John's story? Or Rodney's?

As a writer, if you sense yourself drifting into your specific h/c "trigger" territory, do you take that as a sign that you need to back off -- the way I do? Or do you keep going? (Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just curious if other people do the same thing, or react differently.)

Do you like reading stories that push the limits of h/c farther than you, personally, would feel comfortable doing as a writer?

Do you enjoy the hurt by itself, or do you mostly read for the "comfort" part?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Huuuuuuuunh. This actually explains a lot. Er, please don't take this in a bad way or anything! But I've wondered about your fics before (only vaguely and subconsciously, or I actually would've asked you outright), and this answers it. Because I know from talking to you that you're as hard-core an h/c'er as myself, and our tastes converge to almost scary extents on a lot of things, enough that I am always eager to look into anything you recommend because I can be certain it will at least tickle my own buttons, if not pound on them repeatedly with a delightful mallet (...or, in the case of SGA, avoid like a plague because I WANT TO KEEP MY SOUL HOMG. ...the little teeny shreds that haven't been hostilely taken over by LexCorp, that is.)

Anyway! Given this, your fic somewhat surprises me, because it never goes over the top, and maybe never quite hits the peaks of h/c I might expect. It tends to keep to the level of an h/c-strong novel, with the corresponding complexity of plot one would expect of a 'real' story. Which makes for a very enjoyable reading experience, but at the same time...I'll find myself craving just the little bit more, same as I tend to with novels or TV shows. This is contingent on a lot of things, the mood I'm in, how much the scenario is hitting my buttons, etc...and it's not that your fic is unsatisfying! But...hmmm. It doesn't make me squirm, usually. I think as an h/c'er yourself you might know what I mean, that special tickle in your gut...(h/c addiction is a parasite! or possibly an alien about to be birthed...)

Which means I feel more comfortable actually rec'ing your fic to people (especially non-h/c people) as genuinely good stories, and will probably think it's better written overall, because I tend to associate that squirming with an over-the-topness akin to the cheese of harlequin romance, though with a different trigger...but sometimes...I like to squirm! (and am very curious to read your SGA, as it seems to have a higher h/c quota than your anime fic?)

At the same time, I can understand the self-limiting impulse. I have a dicey relationship with writing h/c myself. I will at times shy back from the more extreme stuff...when I first started fic'ing, I was downright embarrassed to write any of it down, at least where anyone but me could read it. Part of the reason I got over that is because

gnine (little sisters make the best writing cheerleaders) is possibly a bigger h/c'er than me, and will always want more if I'm willing to write it. I also do get concerned with staying IC, so a lot of my stories tend to get very long just so I can rationally bring the chars to the point that they make me squirm, and yet still be recognizable (Seven Deaths (http://www.xmagicalx.net/anime/op_7deaths.html) is probably my favorite example of this of my own fic.) I actually have no idea if people consider my fic over-the-top, or under, or just right. I'll warn when a story is totally self-indulgent (well, really they all are, but some are written just-for-me more than others) but I guess it doesn't worry me much, because I know I'm not alone in my tastes; I figure if I enjoy it, someone else probably will, too...

I also have gotten pickier about my h/c as I've gotten older/have read more of it (really don't know which factor it is!); things that used to make me squeal with delight now might make me roll my eyes. (Though I'll probably still take guilty pleasure all the same.)

I'm far more into the "hurt" than the "comfort" part (actually I also read "hurt" without any "comfort" as long as there is an ending that allows a happy outcome), and I read for the character I like being hurt. I prefer them to be conscious while suffering though, and I'm less into illness than into torture and the like for inflicting hurt, and while I can enjoy it from the POV of the torturer I think I prefer the victim POV. Generally I like psychological pain and humiliation more than pure physical hurt, though admittedly I do have a kink for "sensory loss", i.e. inflicting things like blindness or deafness on a character.

For your example story, of John being shot at the start, I'd rather he had to drag himself through the wilderness while wounded for a while or whatever, and not get any reprieve or comfort at all until his breaking point only to manage to get home to Atlantis towards the end of the story, and then the story only hints at the comfort for a happy ending without dwelling on it. But that's because like I said, I read that kind of story for wallowing in the hurt, and find the comfort rather boring in contrast.

(extra comment, because I had a bad feeling I'd run out of room what with my essaying above) another discussion answer:

I write h/c for the pairs, definitely (in a platonic or romantic sense; when it comes to h/c it's not about the sex anyway, so it's pretty difficult to distinguish, anyway) There often will be one char I prefer to hurt, but it tends to vary from fandom to fandom without much rhyme or reason. As a general rule, if one char is more expressive about their feelings for the other char, I tend to want to hurt the expressive one, as it gives the inexpressive one a chance to prove how much they really do care even if they don't say it. This isn't always the case, though.

And it's all about the comfort, for me. I admit there are certain varieties of hurt that appeal to me (some of them I prefer to watch rather than read, a lot of boys and actors are, hmm, awfully pretty in pain...) but if there's no comfort eventually there's no point, ultimately. And I much prefer writing the comfort side, to the point that I'll often find way to write around it (again, see 7 Deaths!).

This is also why I tend to prefer emotional/mental torture to physical; unlike some h/c'ers who enjoy going into the (literally) gory details, medical h/c doesn't do much for me. (drugs, now, I have a terrible, terrible weakness for drugs, overdoses, poisons, hallucinogens, etc...) I'd much rather the focus be on the feelings than the physical pain...

Re (x) and (y) as a writer. When I was little *g*, I wrote dreadful pastiches inflicting grievous bodily harm on my favourite x and then y would look after him. I have a hard copy, original series BSG where Apollo goes through the wars and eventually falls into a coma and Starbuck had to look after him. And darn if it didn’t get a little bit boring with my favourite character simply lying there as an inert lump. Starbuck (slowly) took over, both becoming a more interesting character and the comfort became paramount. What I then realised and acted upon, when I dabbled in the ‘Due South’ fandom and then in ‘The Sentinel’ fandom was that, for me, that liking x and y (and z) is necessary to write in a fandom, i.e. it has to be their story.

Re: h/c – the hurt side (I’ll define it as inflicting hurt) as a writer and reader. I prefer a short sharp shock i.e. an accident, a shot, an attack. A sustained focus on hurt, such as unrelenting torture or debilitating ongoing disease is not my cup of tea. Partly, it makes me question a) why I like h/c (we’re inflicting pain on characters/people we supposedly like) and b) it gets in the way of the comfort. So yes, I’m more invested in the comfort side when x or y is vulnerable.

Re: the trigger as a writer. The h/c often allows a degree of closeness in stories where the characters aren’t in a close loving relationship. That this is necessary is a topic for another discussion. Physical barriers are often broken, illness and injury necessitates physical contact (even if our heroes deny it at the next commercial break). My triggers are then character based within the situation, for example, Rodney recovering from a serious head injury will only passively accept the comfort for a finite portion of time and then he’ll bite off Carson’s hand. John would cajole and insult Rodney who is relearning to walk, help him if he fell over, but beat a retreat if Rodney accidentally soiled himself and Carson was there.

The weight of the POV determines whether the story is X's or Y's or both. A story with X and Y doing their H/C thing could even be about someone else entirely. This boils down to authorial intent, what the writer wants to say in terms of the story's larger themes.

As a writer, I use H/C as a way to express a point or show something about relationships. It's not purely gratuitous, so I go as far as the story dictates. My writerly inclination is to make both the H and the C logical, natural outgrowths of all the other stuff I'm trying to explain. For that reason, I do "back off," as you say, to prevent the story from becoming about the whump and the angst.

Reading more graphic stories than I would ever write is part of my diet. Six servings a day, at least, just like the Fanfic Food Pyramid recommends.

As for your last question (I feel like I'm sitting across from my therapist or something!), hurt by itself does not a balanced diet make. The same with comfort. And both ought to have an intimate connection with the story themes in order to have meaning. Thus, I read H/C for both aspects, but a really satisfying read is more about the story as a whole.

hmmm. interesting post. I don't consider myself a hard core h/c fan, so take my answers with a grain of salt.

I liked

iamrighthere's comment about the h/c arising from and being "natural outgrowths" of the plot. As a reader, gratuitous whumping irritates me. And it always seems that h/c writers "always hurt the ones they love", so that their favorite character is usually the whumpee, at least if that person's conscious to feel the pain. I prefer to read stories where the author restrains her/himself with the whumping (as you do) rather than where they go "over the top", which kind of irritates me and will often make me stop reading the story.

As far as the balance between hurt & comfort, as a reader, I'm all about the comfort, baby--bring on the backrubs, the cuddling, the warm blankies!

This is going to be a long post, and then I'm cutting myself off to actually go and get work done.

So, yeah, you know I'm big into the h/c genre. For a while I felt a little guilty that *every* story was in that category, but then I had a kind of epiphany of 'this is what I'm doing to relax, to give to the other h/c fans'. Now I don't freak out about writing h/c almost exclusively but I do try to be aware of what

springwoof mentions, that gratuitious whumping that's *just* there and does nothing for the plot. I've indulged in some of it but mostly I've tried to steer away from it.

For me, my favorite h/c is where the hurt happens but the character(s) have to keep on going. There's still a crisis, a story, and they've got to get through it, but the hurt is always there in the background. Nothing annoys me more than a writer having xx character hurt and then it isn't mentioned again until the end of the story, almost as an afterthought. And if the hurt is there and they've got to work through it, then the natural extension is the comfort taking place along with the hurt. I don't like stories that are 99% hurt and 1% comfort. I don't even like it when it's 80/20. I need the comfort component to be as much as and preferrably a little more than the hurt component.

One of my favorite things to do is to write a story from another POV (other than John's) and yet, have the story very much *about* John, and also, the other characters. John Sheppard is my character of choice and he's unabashably, front and center, in almost every story I write, but I've also found a lot of enjoyment in writing team fics where John might get just that little bit more, but there's plenty of everything to spread with the other characters in the story. That I think is a sign of my growing as a writer, learning to mesh others and write them all with strength. I think that is something that fledgling writers don't often have at the beginning.

Stories written about x from y's POV, can very much be about x.

As a writer, I'm far less comfortable writing things that I'm willing to read. There are times I will absolutely indulge in reading a gratuitious whump fic. But I don't want to write one. But there are still some places I just don't want to go, reading or writing. I adore John Sheppard, and I might do a lot of h/c, but I can't do the serious damage. The closest I've gone is Autumn and Dear John, and that's as far as I'm interested in going and even those two stories were requests. It wasn't somewhere I would've gone otherwise. But with that said, I do think it gave me new perspective and I view every story as an experience to learn from. I've taken something away from almost every story I've written.

***continued below, stupid post limits!******

*****cont. from above****

I had to learn to not put myself into the story in regards to the comfort. When I first started, I went OTT a lot. I had to learn to stay in character, to realize that the characters wouldn't go that far. And also, h/c can become very serialized. A writer has to do different things and work harder to be original in the h/c genre. There's only so many times I want to read (or write) about John getting shot. Therefore, there's a burden to make the hurt as a true consequence of the story and not make the story a mere frame for the hurt.

I had a good friend of mine admit that the ending part of The Last Survivor was maybe a little much, but then I explained I needed that to really throw Mawani off balance. Here she was going to Atlantis for the first time and I wanted her arrival to have extra impact, extra drama, and her thinking Sheppard had died after all they'd been through, was the device I used. It tied together with *how* it all unfolded, including the tie up of the last Wraith. But I got what she was saying. Maybe it could've been done without that last hurt to John, but I wasn't all that interested in looking for that other way. And that's probably a shortcoming I should work on.

Do you like reading stories that push the limits of h/c farther than you, personally, would feel comfortable doing as a writer?

To specifically answer this...yes and no. Ha! Well, the yes should be qualified with a 'infrequently'. It's more no than yes, definitely. Every now and then I'll get a yearning for something really gritty, dark and painful, but there is often an inability for me to even finish it.

H/C was the first thing I discovered that I love about fanfic almost 25 years ago. I found the writers who like h/c as much as I did and read their stories a LOT. Although I now read slash--also a lot!--I've realized that a good h/c story is still my alltime favorite type, over and above almost anything else. Yes, I am 5 years old, I guess.

I understand your worries about going to far with the h/c, because I agree it should fit in with the story somehow. And I agree with

kodiak_bear that the best h/c is when the characters still have to keep going, fighting through the pain, and overcoming the hurt. Fainting in the infirmary and periods of extended unconciousness bore me for the most part. I want to see the protagonists working together or talking or caring about each other. It's okay to show them worrying about each other in the infirmary, and revealing this worry to others, but extended scenes about only one of them are usually too long for me.

I say USUALLY about much of my comments, because I know many writers who can make me love anything and everything because they write it so well. I may have some ideas about what I do or don't like in general, but I'm always willing to follow a writer wherever she wants to take me, and often enjoy the journey more than I thought I would.

That being said, there is one thing I REALLY, REALLY dislike, which is a story of hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, comfort. Or occasionally, no comfort at all! (What's the POINT?) I really do read for the COMFORT part of the story. When the hurt gets to be too much, especially when our hurtee is alone--such as torture scenes, or excruciating pain while alone in the woods--I tend to tune it out or skim the worst parts. As much as I love whump, it turns out I'm not a sadist, and sometimes the whumping goes too much OTT, even for me.

Common Ground is a perfect example here. Many fans LOVE this episode because Sheppard gets tortured, over and over again. The scenes where everyone back in Atlantis worries about him--okay. But the torture was a bit too much for me--with absolutely no comfort payoff at the end. Thank God for fanfic, which "fixes" all that for me, where you wonderful authors show the consequences of Sheppard's torture (both physically and mentally), and you have people caring for him, and helping him, and making ME feel better. (g) It's BECAUSE of the fanfic that I really like this episode, not for the episode itself per se.

I meant to agree with Kodiak Bear in my post above. I must have spelled it wrong.

h/c can become very serialized. A writer has to do different things and work harder to be original in the h/c genre.

Quite right! There are what I call "cave-in fics," which have as a central theme the characters being woefully injured in--yes!--a cave-in. I'm not criticizing these stories at all, just saying that you're right. H/C can become rote and too set in a story-line pattern with other works. Additionally, as the number of SGA writers grows and the library of fics becomes larger, original situations of all sorts become fewer in number. That's why it's so much fun to read stories written from the POV of cute little glow-bugs!

drive by posting, just commenting on this question: For example, if John gets shot in the opening scene and most of the story takes place with John in the infirmary and Rodney angsting over him, is it John's story? Or Rodney's?

it's Rodney's, because it's about Rodney. Unless Rodney gets into John's brain and starts fighting John's demons for him. Then it's about John.

Or, for example, there's an SGA story out there that keeps getting billed as a "Carson" story. It's quite well written, and a good story on many levels. But the story is about Carson accidentally taking John's place in some Ancient pre-Ascension device that is supposed to purge a person of their fears--and so Carson is taking a walk through JOHN's past and facing his demons for him. And therefore it's NOT a Carson story, even if it was written for someone as a Carson story. It's a story where Carson is a plot device used to explore John's backstory and demons. It's not about Carson at all. If it was about Carson, it would have been about Carson's fears and Carson's demons.

And I've seen that happen other places, too, and yes, these are mostly Carson stories because he's my favorite and I am protective of him--and also because I think people honestly want to write him in as a character at times, but they can't shift their focus enough consciously to him. So they wind up making him the observer/plot device for their story about Rodney or John or both, and because he's the POV character htey then call it a "Carson" story. Nope.

Oy, must run, late for coffee with writing partner. Then I'll come back and try to actually read your post and reply cogently, instead of just skimming and knee-jerk reacting. ;-)

Here's the crux of it: If I start sensing the goo-puddle feeling coming on, then I figure I've gone too far and start chopping out h/c content.

I love H/C, love it, and it's the one thing I can't write because of this exact thing. I start writing a scene where, say, John and Rodney have been in a puddle jumper crash (my most recent attempt at H/C) and my characterization goes to hell. Rodney starts bawling, or John starts declaring his love while tenderly carressing him to keep his mind off the wounds, and I get sick to my stomach and scrap it. It's odd, because like I said -- I love H/C possible more than is healthy (heh, get it? Get it? healthy? Oh, I crack myself up), but I just can't write it and still have the plot be believable.

Those are some tricky questions to answer.

I agree with iamrighthere - the weight of the POV depends on whose the story is.

In terms of pushing the limits of h/c... I read old Due South fics I wrote years ago, and they occasionally make me squirm, because the stories frequently focus too much on the 'comfort' part of h/c, to an extent which would not be seen in the show itself (given that the two leads are emotionally reticent). However, I do prefer fics that I both read and write to give more time/plotting to hurt/comfort should it take place - unlike in the episodes (e.g. Grace Under Pressure, and the lack of comfort for poor ol' Rodney!).

I do read fics which depict more hurt than I would choose to write myself. Mostly I think this is down to the desire to read h/c fanfic - if the fandom is going through a dry spell, I'll be more liberal in my choice of reading material.

I read for the 'comfort' part more than the hurt. I'm quite happy to read or write a fic where the hurt happens off screen. What draws me more into a story, however, is the emotion resulting from the h/c - angst, guilt, etc. My last fic only had one or two chapters depicting the 'h/c', although it was referred to in later chapters. The h/c event was merely a plot device to explore the emotional impact it would have on the characters and their relationships. In the same way I agree with the folks above - if a character has to ignore their 'hurt' and carry on, fight against it to survive or for a fellow character to survive, then I love that sort of fic - because the focus is on the emotion, not the hurt.

Oh, wow, I've done a lot of thinking about h/c because that's my favorite genre to read, too.

I discovered that it had a name when I found SG-1 fan fiction online but I've always been a fan of my favorite characters being hurt and having to overcome the odds to survive or being nursed back to health by their best friend or partner.

As a writer, I find myself writing h/c a lot. It's a way to put characters I love into stressful situations and seeing who they truly are. I really, really like seeing John being the one injured and Rodney having to save them both because it switches up their role. Rodney has to become the caregiver, and John has to depend on someone else to take care of him. It makes them both grow as characters. The trick is, as someone said, is to make sure they stay in character. I've hit the back button so many times when Rodney gets all compassionate in his care and John becomes tractable and willing to let Rodney take care of him. It's just not the way they operate. I'm working on a h/c fic right now where I keep thinking the boys are going to be all sweet and tender in a scene and then they remind me that that's now who they are.

I like the h/c the best that shows the characters as they are and makes it completely warm and wonderful and John and Rodney are completely themselves anyway. Am I making any coherent points here?

I have found some fics that go beyond the limits of what I'm comfortable with. Oddly enough they're not the ones that involve abuse that would make most of us break and end up staring at the walls the rest of our life, it's those stories that see how much they can do to a character. I've been dealing with that in my current fic also. There are so many more things I could do to John and Rodney, but at what point do you say enough's enough? I've read stories where literally there was concussions and broken bones and snake bites and a fire and I think the characters also fell into a river (okay I *may* be exaggerating just a little *holds up thumb and finger scant inches apart* to make a point. But at some point the hurt becomes so much that it's hard to believe there's ever going to be any comfort to the story.

I admit it, I do like the hurt. I like watching the character struggle and the other person hurting and angsting. But I need the comfort in the end. I need to know that everyone's going to be alright and these people I love are going to be back another day. Not necessarily in a neatly tied up kind of way. Some stories just wouldn't work like that. But even if John's been crippled, that he's learned to deal with it and he's found a new place on Atlantis to fit in. Or if Rodney's lost his sight that he's figured out other ways to compensate and moved on, he's just as brilliant as ever and Atlantis would not be able to do without him. As a writer and as a reader I need both parts (not in equal measures though, it depends on th story) to make the story complete.

I've written a few h/c in a Kirk/Spock series, but since it was a few years ago I can't really call myself a writer. Although I'd like to write in SGA, I can never find plots/ideas... that seem good enough to ppush me to write, so I just indulge in h/c, my beloved guilty pleasure, as a reader.

Just like you, although I LOVE reading "hardcore" h/c I could never bring myself to go to far when writing, and while I love reading Spock getting hurthurthurt (and Rodney getting hurthurthurt - or angsting like mad, which counts as suffering!! - etc) I tried to even things out a bit as a "writer".

I also need my hurt to be followed by if not comfort, at least a hint that things get better. I like reading hurt, and too much heavy comforting (which can easily become OOC, and I guess that's one of the big traps of h/c) can overload my sappy-meter, but hopeless stories get me depressed for days and I want to have at least a glimmer of something better at the end, albeit a reunion after death if it's a death story (lots of those for Kirk & Spock thanks to the katra things of Vulcans - saved! ;-)

I love seeing them having to overcome the hurt, though - which is not exactly "comfort" - such as learning to live after torture, the consequent low self-esteem... and in that case picking up post actual hurt is fine - there's plenty of angst anyway, and the potential for reliving said hurt.

& I much prefer it when it's part of the plot, even if the plot is all about getting to live with it. When pointless or gratuitous it can quickly become annoying, unless I need a fix.

I suppose I am one of those people who likes to hurt (and at times even kill) the one I love and see how the other characters respond.

But I don't want to just physically hurt a character, at times I also want to shake up his/her world view and how he/she views himself/herself. In some ways I like emotional h/c then physical. But I will read either type.

Now in SGA I like to read fics about say Rodney getting hurt because I like the idea of Teyla, Ronon and John showing they care for him by their efforts to save him because they aren't going to say it to him. That and because I tend to view all three of them as Protectors and Warriors and it is fun to play with that by having Rodney be the one that is hurt and have them deal with it. On the other hand, it could be just a fun to have Rodney be the one who has to take care of the rest of them because it is just something he is not comfortable doing.

For me, it's the hurt more than the comfort that gets to me, that produces that special tickle in the gut (as

xparrot said above; nice to know I'm not the only one who gets that! I'd wondered for a while).

And in addition to the hurt, it's... the stripping away of the façade, I guess. Where the hurt wears them down to their underlying personality, shows what kind of people they really are, and what they're willing to do for others. The scenario I constantly come back to in my imagination (based off an ep from Due South, probably, though it may have been in my head before that) is the one where two characters are stuck in the woods; both are injured, one more badly than the other, and the one character (generally my favorite) must carry the other through the woods, valiantly ignoring their own injury... etc, etc. Or, exhaustion is another good one.

It works best for me when (if it's two characters in the situation) the characters normally have a bickering relationship. And it's crucial that they at least keep up some semblance of that bickering; they can't just suddenly go all mushy on each other, because then I cry "OC!" and flee to the hills. I think this is why I come back to

xparrot's OP fics when I need a good dose of h/c; they manage to consistently hit all my kinks while staying in character.

On the other hand, the hurt can't go so over the top that I'm left there going "how on earth is this person still alive?! And I'm not a big one for fics about people getting disabilities; I want the characters to be able to go back to how they were before hand, maybe with a few more scars, maybe a little bit wiser, but still the same essential character I fell in love with from the show.

As for the comfort, it needs to be there in some form or another, but it's not really the point. Continuing what I was saying, about the hurt wearing down the person's walls... the comfort is the part where I want them to get built back up again. Have maybe one moment of sappy comfort, okay, but after that get those boys up and bickering again. I really don't have any desire to read ten chapters of character (x) taking care of character (y), sitting by his bedside and angsting, etc: it bores me to tears. I think I'm in something of a minority in this respect, since I hear a lot of people saying that they want the comfort just as much as the hurt.

That is, if you consider yourself a fan of (x) character, would you rather read (or write) a story in which (x) is injured and pretty much out of it for most of the story, while character (y) takes care of them and acts as the POV character? Or would you consider such a story to be more (y)'s story?

I would consider it (y)'s story. But I wouldn't read this story in the first place, because *yawn*.

When writing h/c... I do tend to write to my own triggers. But that's because I'm writing it for myself, and those fics will rarely (if ever) get posted for public consumption (I write way, way more than I ever actually post). They aren't generally fully-fledged stories, anyways-- they're just fragments. When writing something for posting, I do back off from going too far, because it just devolves into wallowing, and if I go down that route I get distracted from where the story is actually supposed to be going.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about the squirm -- that little tummy-flippy feeling. I really like your Harlequin romance comparison, because it really *is* similar! I love my sentimental friendship moosh, but it's also kind of a guilty pleasure.

SGA is a fandom, like SG-1 and Invisible Man, where "more" is not always better, because some people go *so* over-the-top that it just loses its impact or becomes massively OOC. The ones that make me feel the most, seem to be somewhere in the middle, where the happy-squirm factor kinda comes out of nowhere and surprisese you.

Given this, your fic somewhat surprises me, because it never goes over the top, and maybe never quite hits the peaks of h/c I might expect. It tends to keep to the level of an h/c-strong novel, with the corresponding complexity of plot one would expect of a 'real' story. Which makes for a very enjoyable reading experience, but at the same time...I'll find myself craving just the little bit more, same as I tend to with novels or TV shows.

*laughs* This is SO interesting to know! And it makes me think that maybe I've been pulling back TOO much in the past. You're absolutely right that my SGA fics are more heavy on the h/c than other things I'd written before, and a lot of it, I think, is that I'm in a fandom that is so open to it and actively encourages it. Whereas in a fandom like, oh, DBZ, there was so little h/c, at least of the gen kind, that I didn't really have much of an idea of how over-the-top I was getting ... or, as the case may be, not getting. I don't know if that makes any sense; it's just that to me, as a writer in fandoms that were generally not very h/c oriented, my stories seemed a lot heavier on the h/c to *me* than I think they would've in a more h/c-heavy fandom.

This is certainly not the only fandom I've ever been in that catered to the h/c crowd, but I think it's the first time I've been in a heavy fic-writing phase AND in an h/c-intensive fandom ... which is really serving to bring out my inner h/c fangirl in a big way. Looking back at a few of my abandoned fics from earlier fandoms, they tended to be more in the way of h/c and less in the way of plot; I've got one Invisible Man one, for example, that was primarily a total excuse for h/c. (I was actually thinking about seeing if I could get enough back into the mindset of those characters to finish that one. Ditto for an older Saiyuki one that I'd abandoned specifically because I thought I'd gone overboard on the character torture -- and based on the last Reload book that's out in English, I think I'm about to get "jossed" on that one anyway, darn it, because I really *did* want to finish it now that I'm back into writing that sort of thing ....)

I also do get concerned with staying IC, so a lot of my stories tend to get very long just so I can rationally bring the chars to the point that they make me squirm, and yet still be recognizable (Seven Deaths is probably my favorite example of this of my own fic.)

Yeah, with "Seven Deaths" I remember thinking, and possibly commenting on, the fact that you actually had Sanji crying in Zoro's arms and it felt IN CHARACTER ... which just blew me away. That's one of the reasons why my stories tend to be so insanely long, because I do tend to write for really emotionally repressed characters and there's a lot that you just can't *do* in a short story without OOC-ness.

things that used to make me squeal with delight now might make me roll my eyes. (Though I'll probably still take guilty pleasure all the same.)

*grin* I think it's kind of a "been there, seen that" sort of mentality, at least for me. When I hop into a new fandom, it's all fresh and shiny, but there are certain types of stories that are done over and over. The first time is great; the twentieth, not so much. That's another challenge for me in my writing, to keep it new and fresh and different. I've already done a hypothermia story, for example, so I won't do another, at least not in this particular fandom. There are certain types of stories I probably won't write for SGA because so many other people already are writing them. (But don't hold me to that...)

I love smarm (h/c's close cousin). Love love love. But I have never been able to bring myself to write much of it, or finish and post the bit of smarm I've written.

Most of what I write does contain a bit of h/c; and the one part of my smarm/h/c kink I let into my fic is when a normally-in-control character is pushed into giving up a bit of autonomy by circumstances. The most extreme example I've written is one in which Jim Ellison has fallen about 20' and semi-impaled himself on something while chasing bad guys and Blair convinces him that any good Jim would be doing by trying to move is more than offset by the risk of compounding his injury. So the story isn't really about the hurt or the comfort, really (though there's a bit of both) so much as Jim letting Blair assume control of the situation.

I've also written fics where Jim Ellison is dealing with the long-term effects of the bullet he takes in the last episode of the The Sentinel; and part of this involves him accepting the bit of comfort and assistance that Blair is able to offer.

Looking at your questions...

When you write (or read) h/c, do you consider the story more about the person who is being hurt, or the one who is giving the comfort, or both?

Both, when I write - I'm really interested in the relationship and how it responds (and, hopefully, grows) when stressed.

As a writer, if you sense yourself drifting into your specific h/c "trigger" territory, do you take that as a sign that you need to back off -- the way I do?

I don't much write the sorts of stories that would lead to my triggers. I want to read about extreme physical/mental stress and its abatement, but I want to write, mostly, relatively fluffy what-ifs, post-ep comfort (I end up writing very few of these, though), and slice-of-life connection stories. I think part of the reason is that I don't want people to know how much I crave smarm/comfort scenes, and also that I want my stories to stand alone - yeah, I'm stealing the characters and setting, but I'd like them to be recognizable as short fiction by a random non-fan reader (though I don't put in the character descriptions that would really allow this.)

Do you like reading stories that push the limits of h/c farther than you, personally, would feel comfortable doing as a writer?

Emphatically yes.

Do you enjoy the hurt by itself, or do you mostly read for the "comfort" part?

I often skim the hurt part, unless there's comfort intertwined.

Oh, and I really don't like the comfort to take place in a hospital/infirmary; that's practically cheating!

- Helen

*nods along* I'm all about the comfort myself, as I think you know. And this --

I write h/c for the pairs, definitely (in a platonic or romantic sense; when it comes to h/c it's not about the sex anyway, so it's pretty difficult to distinguish, anyway)

pretty much nails it for me too, because I really *don't* go for the hurt at all when there's no possibility of comfort. I think that's why I didn't really get as much out of the h/c aspect to the Dresden Files books, at least the earlier ones, as some other people did, because for me it does take two characters with a bond between them (be it blood, partnership, friendship or even enmity) to get me into that happy zone. The hurt itself, for me, is mostly appealing for the anticipation of comfort to come later, and if the anticipation isn't there, it doesn't hold a lot of interest for me.

unlike some h/c'ers who enjoy going into the (literally) gory details, medical h/c doesn't do much for me. (drugs, now, I have a terrible, terrible weakness for drugs, overdoses, poisons, hallucinogens, etc...)

*grins* Sharing a brain again. This is, once again, something I'd never really thought about in so much detail until spending so much time in a gleefully h/c-happy fandom, but I really do have a sort of taxonomy of hurt (and doesn't it sound twisted to put it that way). Anyway, I love the HECK out of disorientation-type trauma that doesn't leave too much of an effect on the body -- poison, drugs, head wounds, hypothermia, even seasickness or something like that. Because you get the affection, the stripping down of emotional barriers, without a lot of gory physical trauma, which really *isn't* what I primarily go for. Not that I can't enjoy it, not that I haven't written it, and the "hovering on the verge of death" thing is also a definite trigger for me (if only because it prompts much worrying and emotional openness that would not otherwise be possible, since the characters I fall for are so often complete social *retards*). But too much physical trauma tends to send me off into sympathy-ouch territory, which isn't mutually compatible with the happy squirming.

As a general rule, if one char is more expressive about their feelings for the other char, I tend to want to hurt the expressive one, as it gives the inexpressive one a chance to prove how much they really do care even if they don't say it.

I'm sitting here trying to figure out if there's a pattern like that for me. I think it can go either way for me, really, depending on character and situation. *laughs* I kinda want the stoic character in *both* roles, really, because I like to see them broken out of their normal emotional mold and forced to admit (if only to themselves) that they really DO care, but the stoic ones are also usually my favorites, so I also want them in the role of comfortee ...

*grins at your icon*

This is very fascinating to me because I'm the exact opposite -- the hurt is mostly interesting to me as a prelude to comfort. I read, and write, the hurt mostly in anticipation of comfort to come later. But of course the differences are what makes a discussion like this interesting, and this is exactly what I wanted to do -- to scope out what other people are seeing when they view the same fics I'm seeing.

Having said that, though, I do relate quite strongly to what you're saying here with the "survival against the odds" thing. I think generally, the type of stories I *don't* like are the ones where the character simply capitulates and has to be rescued. Even if rescue is eventually needed, I like to see them try to get out of it on their own, whether it's a physical situation that they need to escape or a mental dark place.

Er, "OOC", not "OC".

It's probably just as well that I didn't know about fanfic until relatively recently, because I shudder to think at the awfulness that I would have inflicted on the world in my younger days. *grin* It's bad enough looking back at the emo-fic that I wrote with my original characters when I was a teen, where they were having failed suicide attempts and drug overdoses and generally every cliche in the book.

Oh, BSG was one of my first big fan "crushes" on a character friendship; I still remember with incredible vividness the episode where Apollo died and the aliens/angels/ascended Ancients *g* brought him back. BSG was one of the shows that made me consciously start realizing that I was specifically watching for this stuff, even though I had never heard of h/c and the Internet and organized fandom was still quite a few years in my future.

for me, that liking x and y (and z) is necessary to write in a fandom, i.e. it has to be their story.

Oh YES, absolutely! I think one of the reasons why I phrased the question above the way that I did, is because I'm always very surprised to come upon h/c writers who admit to not liking one of the characters in the pairing, or at least having a very strong preference for one of them. I'm not here to point fingers or bash anyone's preferences, but to me that's hard to fathom, because the characters as a unit, the pairing, the friendship, is what it's all about for me. They have to interest me both as individuals, and as a twosome, in order to really draw me in.

Rodney recovering from a serious head injury will only passively accept the comfort for a finite portion of time and then he’ll bite off Carson’s hand. John would cajole and insult Rodney who is relearning to walk, help him if he fell over, but beat a retreat if Rodney accidentally soiled himself and Carson was there.

*nods* As much as I love comfort, having characters provide comfort far beyond where they would be willing to go in canon ... that kinda squicks me on the character's behalf, unless the writer does a lot of work to set up a scenario where it could logically happen.

But crying "OC!" and fleeing to the hills is a common reaction as well. *g*

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