sholio | Books: Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett

Entry tags:

books:misc

Books: Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett

My fanfic reading's been on a downswing lately, but my book reading's been in a corresponding upswing. Coincidence ... I think not. There are only so many hours in the day, after all. *g* And I do mean to post more about the books I'm reading; it's just ... I'm lazy? And getting back to the whole "only so many hours in the day" problem, I'd often rather read a new book than write about one I've already read.

But I just read Monstrous Regiment, and I'm sure that plenty of people on my f'list read Pratchett (because, seriously ... it's Pratchett!), plus it seemed like an interesting book to talk about.

I should preface this by saying that I really loved the book (though of course I don't mind if people disagree with me on that!). I dunno if it's just been long enough since I've read Pratchett that I've gotten over being mildly annoyed by his rhetorical flourishes, but both this and the other Discworld book I've read recently (Wintersmith) were hella fun, and didn't seem to suffer at all for the fact that he's written fifty bajillion of them by now.

SO - Monstrous Regiment - in general, I loved it! I've been generally fascinated by this whole idea ever since reading a book in my early teens on girls in the Civil War armies (of which there were quite a lot) -- not that I wanted to run off and join the army, as a girl or a boy, but it's very interesting to me from a dramatic perspective (and something that one of my own unfinished novels deals with, as well).

I do think the book was pushing credibility pretty far by the end. The first couple of "... but she's really a girl!" reveals were fun, and I like the idea of the mostly-girls regiment and the notion that there are far more of them than anyone realized. However ... almost half the command structure? Really? And nobody but Jackrum (and maybe Froc in a few cases) even noticed? Right. *pauses to re-attach suspended belief*

I think one of the things I love most about Pratchett is that his characters are all flawed and human and all of them are seeing the world through their own particular lens; he's really good at writing characters who are driven by their own obsessions and victims of their blind spots, so that nobody's 100% right or has a perfectly accurate view of how things work. In this book I particularly liked the way that the tensions between Jackrum and Blouse were developed, because neither one of them is demonized and they're both right and wrong in their own way; you go back and forth on which one of them you sympathize with in a given situation.

And, while this is certainly a matter of personal interpretation, I've always thought Pratchett was really good at writing female characters in a medieval-type setting; I really do think he does a nice job, especially for a male author, of recognizing the limitations on women's roles in a pre-industrial society without having these limitations define his characters (if that makes any sense). Of course, this book is all about that, and maybe it was just because I was on board with the points he was making, but I didn't feel excessively hounded by having the author's point of view thrust at me -- the author's viewpoint was fairly obvious, of course, but at least he used the characters to make the point, and he let them be flawed and scared and a bit wishy-washy rather than picking up swords and becoming badass fighting machines.

I honestly loved how that whole situation was handled at the end; some kind of feminist revolution wouldn't have made any sense in terms of human nature or the dramatic integrity of the book, but I liked the way that Polly's no longer hiding, and insisting on recognition and respect for a uniform that was basically given to her as a joke. It's a small step, in a world that used and broke people like Tonker and Lofty and Wazzer, but you can see the gears starting to turn in the characters' heads that it doesn't have to continue this way, just because it always has.

I go back and forth on how I feel about Jackrum being a woman. I did actually love the idea of him (her) continuing to live in civilian life as a man (which is actually what my unfinished girls-joining-the-army novel deals with ... only with a lot more lesbianism), and I like how completely and utterly she doesn't conform to any sort of female stereotypes, but, even aside from the above-mentioned suspension of disbelief (which was well and truly coming unsuspended at that point) I'm not sure how I feel about Jackrum being a woman in terms of the novel as a whole. I guess that it had, up to that point, felt as if the dynamic between Jackrum and the girls drew a lot of its strength from the tensions between Jackrum being part of the old-guard soldiery and yet quietly supportive of the girls' presence in the military. That she's a woman too, and is basically looking out for the girls because they remind her of herself when she was younger ... I dunno; like I said, I'm still working my mind around how I feel about that one.

And then there's Vimes and Angua, et al. As happy as I was to see two of my favorite Ankh-Morpork characters, I think Pratchett, with Vimes, is in some danger of suffering from what I refer to in my head as "the Festina Ramos problem". Festina Ramos is a character in James Alan Gardner's books. I read everything by him that I could find somewhere around the late '90s; I really loved his books, at the time anyway (haven't re-read them; no idea if I'd still find them as appealing as I did 10 years ago). But he's far, far too fond of a character named Festina Ramos, who is perfectly fine and quite likable in the book in which she's a protagonist (as a young woman); the problem is that she keeps coming back, generally cropping up at the climax of his other books to basically pull a deus ex Ramos, turning out to be wiser, smarter and more sympathetic to the main characters' plight than anyone else in the chain of command, and coming up with a solution to their problems. I like Vimes! I don't want to see this happen to Vimes! But he came across just a little bit that way in this book: not a character, but a deus ex machina device who is just that much more awesome than everybody else. I don't think he's quite there yet, but I really hope that he doesn't get there. I like him too much to want to see that happen to him! (Of course, I liked Festina too, in the beginning ...)

Anyone else read this? Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, man, not only am I currently doing a similar less-fanfic, more-books shift in my reading, but I just picked up Monstrous Regiment to re-read. My memory of it is foggy (I don't remember things I read well a year or two or more later) but I think from what I remember I agree with you entirely. And, yes, Pratchett does, IMO, handle women really well compared to many writers. I'm also so fond of Vimes that I'm just happy whenever he pops up, though I can understand your concern.

It is a bit ridiculous that all the soldiers were women, etc, but I think maybe coming out the other side of ridiculous as farce and parody and such is really part of Pratchett's style.

Yay books!

That was pretty much the only thing I didn't like about the book - that everyone turned out to be female. It was great the first few times, but by the end it lacked impact. Jackrum in particular fell completely flat; I'm sure I would have delighted by that turn had it come sooner, but by then it was just, "Oh, another one."

Monstrous Regiment was one of the last Pratchett books I bought. The last was Thud!, and I didn't manage to finish that one. Sam Vimes, for me, progressed from a character who was awesome to one who was too awesome, if that makes any sense. Never mind that the books dealing with the (night) watch got so dark they lost any appeal. I've never been fond of crime thrillers.

I love Vimes deeply, madly, truly, and I don't think you need to worry about him becoming "deus ex Ramos"--I've read most of the Discworld books post-Guards, Guards, and I don't remember him filling that role in any other book. The Watch does pop up in the books set in Ankh-Morpork, but all the other times (that I'm aware of) it's either the lower ranks or Vimes-as-obstacle/uninvolved-onlooker (I think in The Truth he may send some watchmen that keep the main character from getting assassinated at some point, but that merely keeps the main character alive long enough to settle things on his own).

Actually, I think the whole point of him coming in at the end of Monstrous Regiment (admittedly, it's been a while since I've read it) is that society has gotten into such a ridiculous and fierce cycle/mindset that it takes someone from outside to make those involved realize how ridiculous and futile and even deadly it's become. And Vimes was simply the best pre-existing character for the job.

As for the "everyone's a woman!" reveal at the end, I just read that as satirical farce: the author saying "see how everyone's deliberately blinded themselves to the situation that's developed? The situation they allowed to develop?" Although it does seem a wee bit over the top.

Its one of my favorites. Polly sucj a good character, makes me want read more of this Part of the universe

What I liked about Jackrum and all the women was the idea that so much of patriarchy stands up because of illusion, including self-delusion, and all the ways that we are fooled into not using our power. In the end, you have this crazy little empire that almost embodies stereotypes about male aggression practically half run by women, because for them it's a step up and towards freedom.

Anyway I thought it was a super fun book! I agree about Vimes though. I generally really like him but sometimes...

Monstrous Regiment might be my favorite Pratchett. Despite the fact that it's by far the darkest Discworld novel. Or maybe because of it?

The problem you've got with Jackrum turning out to be a woman-- I struggled with it, too. It seemed to work so much better with him as the old soldier who has seen more than his fair share of war and death, who recognizes his troops for what they are and looks out for them as best as he can. I read the book three (four?) times, and I've still got trouble connecting my image of Jackrum to the pronoun 'her' in the end. It just doesn't feel right.

It's not my favorite Pratchett book, but it was very enjoyable, nonetheless. And I think I fall firmly on the side of liking Jackrum's dynamic with the other characters better if she was actually a he, BUT, that said, it doesn't ruin the book for me or anything.

Sam Vimes is my favorite Discworld character, but no, you're right, he wasn't really necessary in this particular book. However, it was sorta cool to see him from a complete outsider's POV -- not one of his watchmen, who know him well, or someone like Vetenari, who also knows him well, but knows him differently, if that makes sense. And not from his own POV, showing all his insecurities and uncertainties -- but from Polly's, who's never met more than his reputation. I liked that.

Edited 2009-06-07 23:04 (UTC)

But that's, in a way, kind of the point, isn't it? I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer Jackrum to 'stay' male myself, but as far as the way we look at things it really might be the most important reveal -- not just what they expect but what we expect, how we view the story and the narrative conventions.

totally off-comment, but I'm the only one in my group of friends who just really can't seem to manage to get all the way through even one of Pratchett's Discworld books. And I've tried. I have a hard time with his style. But one of my friends who's a writer, who laughs like crazy at the novels and reads and re-reads them till they fall apart commented once that Pratchett's writing is like an in joke to writers and it's amazingly deep.

It's been nice to start getting through my backlog of books -- and there are quite a few recent Pratchetts that I haven't read yet, including this one!

Heh, I have the same problem remembering stuff I read. Movies, I think, are much worse than books for me; my friends will quote movie dialogue at me, but I'm doing well if I can just remember the major plot twists!

I know Pratchett goes for OTT parody, but he also (usually) has a pretty good grasp on when to take a step back and use understatement to bring out the ridiculousness of the situation; it's one of the things that makes his books work as well as they do. In this case, I felt like he pushed the joke/satire too far. Overall, though, I really did love the book; I don't know if it's just been so long since I've read Pratchett that I'd forgotten how much I enjoy them, but I think this is actually one of my favorites.

I think the undercurrent of darkness to the Night Watch books is actually why I like them; I tend to prefer them to his lighter, more farcical books (and the wizard's college books, which are generally the goofiest, tend to be my least favorites). But that's a personal thing, of course; I really like the sharp bite underlying the humor. I take my humor black, I guess ...

Yeah, the Jackrum reveal, especially coming right on the heels of the court martial scene, was just too much for me. I can see what he was trying to do, but I just wasn't able to fully buy into it.

Heh, there's nothing wrong with that! I have a couple other friends who don't enjoy Pratchett, either (or, as one of them says, she just doesn't have the Pratchett gene). He has a very overwhelming style, and if you like the style, it's great, but I can see how it would be extremely offputting if you didn't. There are a few authors that I can't read for that reason, even if their books seem otherwise good.

Partly, it was a case of 'too much' for me. The entire squad, except for Blouse of course, has already turned out to be female. (Which I didn't mind at all, btw.) The first time I read the book, I remember I was hoping that Jackrum wouldn't turn out to be a woman, so the reveal wasn't unexpected to me. Because while dealing with the role of women in Borgravian military and/or society and the fact that it's inevitably beginning to change, I think the male, experienced soldier who accepts and values the members of his all-female squad (and has respected his fellow female soldiers for many years, keeping their existence a secret) would have carried more weight than the woman who looks after her own does in the end.
Yes, the story of Jackrum herself finds the right kind of closure. I really like how her decisions on her life after the military are handled, much like

friendshipper describes above.
But looking at the entire novel, a male Jackrum would have made this more, uh, complete? In a full-circle kind of way? If that makes sense to you. (It seems to, for me. *g*)

No, that's exactly it -- your first comment kind of highlighted what it means with the story of Jackrum (again, exactly because of that impact on us that only that character could have accomplished by that point), But I did have issues with the 'EVERYBODY is pretending' (though some of the comments in the thread have actually made me look at that in a new light).

As far as the larger view, it's been a few years, so I can't really evaluate anymore (until I re-read, of course) if I'd have preferred it be handled differently, but I absolutely get liking it better with Jackrum being male. It really is more with a focus on her/him that I get more sure of Pratchett's choice.

Little late to the party, but thank you for writing this! Your thoughts are interesting :-)

I read MR when it came out, once, and then lent the book to someone and never saw it since, so by now my memories of the book are a little vague. I remember loving it dearly, and being constantly surprised, over and over again, by each new revelation -- like, there wasn't a moment for me when I realized, okay, I can see where this is going. I just kept thinking, wow, I can't believe she's a woman too!, this must be the end -- and then another guy would turn out to be a girl, all the way to the end. And since I like being surprised by unexpected twists, as long as they don't include the year 2035, I really enjoyed that aspect of the story. To me, just having everyone buy into a girl-as-a-guy disguise once requires a suspension of disbelief, and when it was revealed she wasn't the only one for the first time, I just chucked belief out the window and just didn't care about it.

Re: Vimes: I don't know. I can see what you mean about him -- not there yet, but has the potential to be. On the other hand, though, I just love Vimes SO DAMN MUCH, that I just love seeing him mentioned, let alone taking an actual part in the story, period. Also, more Vimes = more chance of hearing what's up with Carrot and Angua, whom I love even more. And then, today, there's also the fact that I don't know how many more Watch books we'll get any more, if at all -- PAUSE FOR WEEPING OMG -- you know, I'm not gonna finish that thought, I'll just keep sitting here in Denial. It's fun.

Good god in heaven, you've read the League of Peoples books!

I... sorry, I actually have nothing relevant to say, I'm just so excited to run across someone else who's actually read them, heh. (I don't mind Festina's continual re-appearances, myself, but to each their own. ^_^)

Hee! :D It's always cool to have that "... oh my god, I'm not the only one who read that book!" feeling, isn't it?

... and that's what they were called! I knew there was some name for the series.

I can definitely see how Festina would be a YMMV character, with some readers enjoying her cameos and going "Oh squee, Festina again!" :)

Now I kinda want to re-read those books ...

... it would probably be easier to get people to discuss books with me if I'd actually respond to the discussions I start, wouldn't it?

I am really trying not to think about the eminent lack of new Discworld books (of all the authors for something like that to happen to -- how utterly unfair for him). In any case, I do love the way that his various characters cross over between different books and storylines -- the sense of interconnectedness is one of the things that makes his books so engrossing. Something about this Vimes appearance didn't work for me; however, more Vimes is not to be scoffed at, in general.

I do agree that it was nice to get an outsider view of Vimes! I've been thinking about why his appearance in this book bothered me -- it's hard to figure it out exactly, since normally I am all over having more Vimes, but it just felt gratuitous and I guess I felt like he came across as a little too special, too idiosyncratic and too sympathetic towards the main characters compared to everyone else. Hmm, tough to say. Perhaps it's just been too long since I read a Vimes book, though ...?

*nods* I would love to see these characters turn up elsewhere on the Discworld! :D

Hmm, that's an interesting point, about the house-of-mirrors effect! I hadn't thought about it that way.

*nods* Yeah, I can see what

tieleen is saying about reversal of expectations, but I guess that was one reversal that was just too huge. It wasn't adequately set up by the text, and normally that's something Pratchett is really good at. I just got done reading "Going Postal", and there are a bunch of little reveals in that book that make you go, "Oh, that's what he was planning!" With Jackrum, though, it didn't feel like the author was playing fair -- rather than dropping subtle little clues throughout, he presented the character one way and then did a sudden "gotcha!" at the end. I really love a surprise reveal when I can look back and pick up on the bread crumbs that the author left me to follow, but when I feel like they are deliberately hiding the bread crumbs in order to preserve the surprise, it doesn't work nearly so well.

I just finished reading "Going Postal" and it's interesting to compare the two, because both are farcical (as Pratchett usually is) but "Postal" is more like the kind of farce that I expect from Pratchett -- where it is over the top but also very solidly grounded in reality, and all the surprises, twists and reveals are very carefully led up to with little trails of bread crumbs, not so visible from one side but very plain in retrospect. I think "Monstrous Regiment", as much as I enjoyed it, felt like more farce and less carefully planned than many of his other books, and maybe that's why I didn't like it as much.

No, I can see that. It was a bit gratuitous, and he does come across as a Very Big Deal kind of guy. Maybe that's because he's not in Ankh Morpork in this book -- and Polly's had less exposure to him so he has more of an impact on her? Or, I suppose, he's just such a favorite of mine that it didn't bother me! *g*

I thought that it was logical for the regiment to be girls because it was the last recruitment. Every man/boy who could had already joined. The women fought because there was nobody left.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Books: Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject