sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2009-01-14 10:04 pm

Cruel little lies

There's an interesting discussion on cultural appropriation and otherness currently going around the fan and pro-writer blogosphere. SF/fantasy writer Elizabeth Bear wrote a post a couple of days ago on writing the "other" in speculative fiction. [livejournal.com profile] rydra_wong has a good link roundup of the posts and discussions that have resulted. If you read only one of them, the one that I've saved and copied and delicious'd and taken to heart is [livejournal.com profile] deepad's I Didn't Dream of Dragons, on cultural appropriation and erasure; I would do a disservice to try to sum up the OP's words in my own, so just -- read it. (And there's also a later post of [livejournal.com profile] deepad's that is a response to some of the criticisms that she and others have received.)

One thing that I keep seeing coming up over and over again in these discussions is a wide assortment of variations on this complaint:

"So, all storytellers should shut up because they can never tell everyone's story for them, correctly and exactly as that person would tell it, if they could? And we shouldn't even try, because we'll only Get It Wrong?"

"I'm a white male, and this suggests that I'm not allowed to write anything but white males."

... and so forth.

My knee-jerk reaction is "Right, because it's all about you, buddy; way to derail the conversation. Stuff it and grow up." But I remember that not too long ago, when I first started doing a lot of reading about cultural appropriation, I ended up tying myself up in creativity-stifling knots because of precisely that fallacy. I still go through regular fits of guilt-ridden "Am I doing this right? Should I be writing about this at all? AAAUUUUUGH" (though I seem to mostly manage to keep it to myself or channel it into actual, constructive questions to ask people).

I get the general, maybe unfair impression that most (white) writers who post that sort of comment are afraid not of actually screwing up what they write, but of being unfairly accused of doing so. It's like saying "I can't write about space travel! People will accuse me of knowing nothing about physics!" Bzuh? X does not imply Y, at least not if you do your research and don't write such a rushed hack job that it's blatantly obvious that, yeah, you really don't know anything about physics and can't be bothered to learn ... in which case you kinda deserve to be taken to task for it.

That's a frivolous comparison, though, because it's much less important to get your physics right than to try not to screw up when you're writing about people's lives, people's identities. You're not going to break someone's heart if you misremember the Planck constant. And yet people research the hell out of their physics, and then turn around and half-ass the most fundamental aspects of their cultural research, if they bother to research at all and don't just base their "other" characters on media stereotypes, or leave them out entirely. The bookstore shelves in the SF/fantasy section are groaning under the weight of generic Eurofantasy, and science fiction with all-white main casts and stereotyped, flat, undeveloped, ultimately doomed characters of color. And still you have a lot of white writers complaining that, when it comes to writing characters who aren't like them, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Well ... yeah. We all are. Because we've all got the weight of history on us -- the things that we, as a society, have done over the years, and the stories we've told ourselves to explain what we did. And all of that, all together -- it's heavy. It weighs heavier on some, pressing them down and crushing them flat; on others, it's so deceptively light we can ignore it and ignore people who complain about it. We can pretend it isn't there, waving it aside because it's inconvenient or uncomfortable, but whenever we write anything, that history is there, invisible, pressing down, no matter how much we try to pretend it's not. It influences how we write race (and gender, disability, sexuality); it influences how our readers are going to respond to it. Unfair? Yeah, it really, really is. Wouldn't it be great if nobody had to worry about it? Wouldn't it be awesome if we could make it go away? But it's there, pushing our hands towards certain keys on the keyboard, quietly guiding our minds down well-worn tracks that lead to the same tired old stereotypes and cliches. You can ignore all of that and stay within your comfort zone and only write what makes you comfortable -- and that is a loaded, political choice, too. Everything that we do (when we're writing, or just going about our daily lives) is loaded with meaning; it all takes place within that historical, cultural framework. There's no way to separate it out, no way to write in a cultural vacuum, or to expect your readers not to be towing the same massive barge of historical baggage that you yourself were dragging when you wrote the thing in the first place.

You want to get angry at someone -- don't get mad at the people who are doing the hard and thankless work of pointing out the places where history is still fucking us over. Get angry at the ones who did it to us instead. Get angry at all the atrocities and the genocides and all the nasty little lies that we told ourselves to justify it -- all the many ways that we wove our self-justifications into popular entertainment until we, as a society, created a whole rogues' gallery of cruel caricatures that still spring up on the written page whenever we relax and stop watching out for them.

Maybe if we can get angry enough, we can push back hard enough against the weight of history to give ourselves the breathing room to tell different stories, better ones, until eventually the old narratives are pushed aside as they deserve to be.

[identity profile] lavvyan.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 07:59 am (UTC)(link)
expect your readers not to be towing the same massive barge of historical baggage that you yourself were dragging when you wrote the thing in the first place.

Ah, but. I'm a German woman writing mainly fan fiction about two men, one American and one Canadian. My audience, judging from the Christmas cards I sent out the year before last, is about half American, half British, with a few people from other countries thrown in. Almost every fandom wank I've seen arise over a story was assuming an American cultural background, most notably the racism wanks and those that devolved into politics.

In other words, large parts of my audience have a vastly different assortment of historical baggage than I do. I can't even talk with some of them without putting both my feet in, because we don't operate under the same assumptions. And it's hard to tell where the hot buttons are, because it's not my culture. Americans have a history of slavery to deal with. We have the holocaust. But, you know, I'm supposed to treat racist issues in a sensitive, reasonable way (and they deserve to be treated like that! I want to treat them like that!). On the other side, people keep calling me a tagging-nazi, blissfully unaware (and apparently not caring much) just what an insult it can be for a German to be called a Nazi. I mean, I know it's a figure of speech that most people from the US and other countries won't think twice about before using it. But that's the problem right there. They write it one way, I read it another.

I don't mean to whine here. Just, people keep telling me that authorial intent doesn't matter, that it's the story itself that counts, and only the story. But how am I supposed to know when people read what I write and when they put in a subtext I never even noticed, because their issues aren't mine?
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 08:37 am (UTC)(link)
You definitely raise a very good point -- that we're all coming to these discussions with a different set of cultural assumptions, and I absolutely agree with you that most of them assume an American default. (And I'm probably quite guilty of that as well.) I've definitely stuck my foot in my mouth a time or two when I'm discussing politics with friends from other countries; it's not that we don't have a lot of the same concerns, it's just that the framework is different, in some ways that are big and others that are small and hard to anticipate. Actually, one of the things I really love about the Internet, and Livejournal, is that it's made me more open-minded in a whole lot of ways, including being less inclined to unconsciously assume an American default when I'm discussing things online.

Muddying the waters still further, I've also sometimes seen people use cultural differences to throw roadblocks in these discussions -- you're not doing that, absolutely not, but "... it's not a problem in my country [so we shouldn't talk about it]" is definitely a derailment technique that people use.

Which is no help at all in addressing your basic point, I know. The only thing I can think of to say is that the only way we can figure this stuff out is to keep talking about it and trying to learn about each others' cultures; I came into this whole thing with some of the American cultural context, absorbed through cultural osmosis, but not by any means the whole picture -- I've learned a ton by reading posts and talking to people. I didn't even realize how much I didn't know. And I'm sure that my picture of German society is awfully flat and stereotypical and media-based, too.
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[identity profile] deaka.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 09:38 am (UTC)(link)
I hadn't caught any of this discussion, so thanks for linking. It's interesting (and eye-opening!) reading. Your post also is very good. It's interesting coming to this from a white but non-American perspective, and troubling, really, to think how much of that 'but people are all the same!' mentality and its less than pleasant undertones of assimilation and identity invalidation and erasure is programmed in socially (I was going to say programmed into 'us' socially, but my general experience does not equal everyone's, so I won't). It bothers me to a point that this kind of discussion isn't seen more widely, and I don't know if it's just something to do with the cultural and historical status quo in Australia, where some of these attitudes are just so accepted and unquestioned that they're practically invisible.

... but then by focusing on that, maybe I'm allowing myself to be deflected from the main issue. In short, really, I wanted to say very good post, and thanks for highlighting this discussion.
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[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 09:39 am (UTC)(link)
Very well-put.

I don't know that I agree with all of it - for one, I'm not sure I ascribe as much relevance or importance to fiction as you do; I don't know if fiction could turn the tide, I don't even know if it could bail out a bucket in the real world. As a fan and as a creator I want to think that fiction has impact, can be a hand on the cultural millstone - but I don't know if it does. People still carry prejudices when they personally know people who fit into a category they're prejudiced against - people with gay friends are still be anti-gay-marriage - so if personal experience is not enough to overcome these social strictures, what good can a little fiction do?

Then, there's always the problem of being labeled a "special interest" writer; of writing with such a focus that your work is not considered to have wider relevance; of abandoning your comfort zone and going so far into your potential audience's uncomfortable zone that almost no one is willing to walk with you.

There's also the question of which issue - because I don't know if it's possible for a single work of fiction, or a single author, to address everything that's amiss in society; when focusing on one problem you lose track of another. Gender is more my hot-button issue than race politics these days, and while that doesn't mean I intend to ignore these issues, I'm likely going to be putting more effort in gender explorations than cultural diversity.

Which doesn't mean I'm exempting myself from the right to be called out for my multicultural screwups by any means; I'd fully expect to be. None of these arguments are an excuse for ignoring the very real problems of stereotypes and prejudices (conscious and unconscious) so deeply entrenched in our society, and I think it's very important to have dialogues about them, to address them.

I guess all I'm saying is that god, this is a difficult issue!

And you wrote it beautifully, even if I don't entirely agree.
ratcreature: Tech-Voodoo: RatCreature waves a dead chicken over a computer. (voodoo)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2009-01-15 10:24 am (UTC)(link)
I don't really get the angst about not being able to create anything. I mean, it's troubling when others point out how you have been unintentionally racist, sexist, unaware of imperialist colonial or other historical context, or otherwise clueless or offensive, but it happens, and then you try to be less racist and clueless the next time around. In a still racist society anti-racism can't be anything but a work in progress, so it's not like art and fiction could be any different. You can't simply decide not to be racist and then never screw up. That the perfect isn't a possible goal doesn't make trying to do better pointless altogether, so that just not caring at all was the solution. That's like saying that just because you can't use say renewable energy for 100% of your energy needs, it's pointless to have say 30% from a solar panel too, which is obviously crazy, because provided you agree on the principle that using renewable energy is a goal 30% is still better than 0% even if it is less than 100%.

And sometimes you risk you being taken the wrong way even knowing that your output is problematic. For example when I drew my computer icon (the one with the voodoo creature waving a dead chicken over the computer I used here) I was worried about it being taken as racist, which it is in a sense, since the saying itself that's common in computing contexts relies on this widespread media misrepresentation and stereotyping of voodoo. So when I made that GIP I mentioned that I'm aware that this motif is problematic, that I don't mean it as offense to real voodoo religious practices, just as a play on the media trope, the cliche and the saying. But of course it can also be seen as perpetuating these very things. I just found the image still funny enough to risk offending and having its racism pointed out to me.

[identity profile] all-my-fandoms.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 10:49 am (UTC)(link)
I have nothing of value to say except that I've been in fandom more or less since I was 14 and I've read tons of race/gender/class/etc discussions by now which have educated me and opened my mind and expanded my horizons immensely, and I am always seeking out more education on those subjects because they fascinate me, but... I am Jewish-Israeli. And so even with all that education, when I write for any English speaking fandom, I want to and try to be aware of and apply all those things I've learned and internalized through fandom discussions but I'm always afraid I'll get it wrong, and I desperately don't want to get it wrong, because it's not my culture by any stretch of the imagination.

Also wanted to say I'm a fan of yours, generally, on a very random note, lol.

[identity profile] lavvyan.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 11:59 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I know what you mean. A perhaps somewhat curious anecdote regarding the good old suggestion to write what we know: last year, someone posted a fic with a WWII Nazi theme, and a (small) handful of people guessed that I was the author, presumably because I'm German. Except I wouldn't touch that one with a stick and protective gear, even if researching it would be easy-ish from my end. Just... no.

So really, writing anything can be a... trap. Dunno. It's still fun, but watch me evade just about every issue I can.

Also, thanks! :)

[identity profile] lavvyan.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 12:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, it's troubling when others point out how you have been unintentionally racist, sexist, unaware of imperialist colonial or other historical context, or otherwise clueless or offensive, but it happens, and then you try to be less racist and clueless the next time around.

It's perhaps that certain people don't say, "Hey, you've been unintentionally racist/sexist/whatnot here, because the way I read it is..."

They say, "You offended me, you sexist/racist/whatnot bitch! What kind of horrible person writes..."

Not everyone, not even by a long shot. But the loudest ones, and I for one am more than willing to admit I don't have what it takes to deal with that kind of thing.
ratcreature: RatCreature shrugs: Whatever. (whatever)

[personal profile] ratcreature 2009-01-15 12:54 pm (UTC)(link)
*shrug*

I tend to take it not that personal. I mean, I know I'm not always polite to sexist jerks after my patience has been tried for a while trying to explain to some guy again and again and again why what they're doing is sexist. It's not other people's problem to help me out politely with my racism anymore than it is my duty to help guys understand feminism. Sometimes it strategically makes sense to help educate others, but it's not the responsibilty of others to help me overcome my cluelessness. So when I'm in the position of the clueless jerk not getting it, I can't fault them for being angry and not helpful to me.

And almost anything I've seen in fandom has been far more polite than the racism/sexism discussion I've been part of in RL projects from all sides, both when giving offense, i.e. when being told I was acting racist and enabling racist structures, and when being frustrated with sexism in projects, and so on. If people can deal with me when I acted racist towards them (even unintentionally) and hurt and hindered them, the least I can do is to deal with them being angry at me, even if they don't perfectly and politely differentiate between me as a person (and my intentions to be anti-racist) and my actions that have wronged them.

[identity profile] wneleh.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 01:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Not everyone, not even by a long shot. But the loudest ones, and I for one am more than willing to admit I don't have what it takes to deal with that kind of thing.

Has this happen to you?

I ask because I've written a few things that I felt there was no way I could get right, culturally, but they were part of the story I wanted to tell so I researched a bit and then put down my head and charged, and I've never gotten a negative word about any of those stories. Maybe I'm just not read enough, or not worth getting upset over...

[identity profile] anniehow.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Mmmh, loved Deepad's essays. And found you pov very interesting too :-)

[identity profile] sparkymonster.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't mean to whine here. Just, people keep telling me that authorial intent doesn't matter, that it's the story itself that counts, and only the story. But how am I supposed to know when people read what I write and when they put in a subtext I never even noticed, because their issues aren't mine?

By doing research. The same kind of research that goes into writing fic. I see fans asking detailed questions about what kind of snacks Rodney might eat. Or spending hours reading up on American sports. You can spend some time getting the basics.

http://delicious.com/starkeymonster/forcluelesswhitepeople is my list of some basic links to toss at people during discussions of race. If you read a couple of those posts, you would have enough of a sense of what is going on to get the basic gist of what is going on. I'd also say the idea that you will never make a mistake in a discussion about race, is an example of privilege, and a way to avoid having discussions about difficult issues. No one is saying you must be right. People are saying you must be thoughtful.

Also, no one is stopping you from saying to people "Hey. It's a big honking deal to Call a German a Nazi. Pls stop."

[identity profile] renisanz.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 02:54 pm (UTC)(link)
*sees the "ibarw" tag and wonders* Is it that time again?

But, yes, you've presented some very interesting ideas. I just got into writing fanfic a little over a year ago, and being more involved in fandom in general, and I started to see these things. By "things" I mean, that there was even an issue over portraying characters of color with accuracy, or even just the writer being sensitive to cultural histories and whatnot. It's all very eye-opening.

I think it's good that people are have concerns about it, about getting things "right" even though they won't a lot of the time. I guess my cultural context is as a female living in the Southern United States. And, oh yeah, I happen to be black too, but it doesn't really factor a lot into how I view things. For example, am I automatically going to be sensitive about things having to do with slavery? Not so much. I think it's more of concern to me that other people might take offense because I'm not offending over such things, but then, I just feel like people take issue over things just because...

Not sure if that's making any sense. Anyway, in the Stargate fandom, I think there's the concern of getting characters like Teyla, Ronon and Teal'c right, but it's weird, because on the show, they're not thought of in the context of race as we know it. Rather, they're aliens. The thing I do notice and take issue with is when a writer refers to the characters skin color, pointing it out just for the sake of it when it seems to have no relevance at that point in the story.

One wonders if it would be an issue if the reader knew the writer was a person of color. Like, is a white person offended when I refer to a white character's skin being pale or whatever? Am I insensitive if in my writing I refer to someone's fair skin as being a desirable or attractive trait, if it fits the context of my story? No need for the reader to get in a huff unnecessarily, right? Conversely, is it only ok for a person of color to be allowed to write such a thing? Of course not.

I go on the assumption that my readers are mostly white Americans, and quite a few Europeans. Most of my fic is Ronon/Keller, and so far, no ones like, "OMG, you so didn't portray Jennifer true to her culture..." Ok, that's kind of a ridiculous example. My point is that, I got to a point in one of my stories where Jen goes back to her hometown and Ronon meets her family, and my biggest concern was getting the details of Chippewa Falls right. I've also discussed how, since Ronon's on earth now, I could explore the possibility of his race, or how it's perceived, playing a role in the story. While the Pegasus Galaxy seemed pretty colorblind, I didn't think it was realistic to make that stretch and apply to the people of earth...

So, writing about it again now helps to strengthen my resolve to go ahead and put in my story. Sorry for the rambling, but, this post is meant to inspire something like this, no? :)

[identity profile] klostes.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 03:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm trying to think of something clever and/or appropriate to say and add to the discussion, but all I can say is, "Yes." And thank you for the links to [livejournal.com profile] deepad's posts, because she articulates my issue with a lot of the "diversity drive" in writing, whether fanfic or pubble fic. I stalled on one of my novels because I was trying to decide how to pull an "Ursula LeGuin" and make some of my characters not-so-white while still placing my world in the northern Hebrides. It didn't work, and now I know why. But it's sad that [livejournal.com profile] deepad's post kind of invalidates Earthsea as well.

Okay, this is all pre-coffee and on an overload of 14th century Mongol history written by a Jewish convert to Islam for the fourth-generation Mongol ruler in a Persian court. ;-) I'll be quiet now and go read some moe.
ext_108: Jules from Psych saying "You guys are thinking about cupcakes, aren't you?" (Default)

[identity profile] liviapenn.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 03:45 pm (UTC)(link)

People still carry prejudices when they personally know people who fit into a category they're prejudiced against - people with gay friends are still be anti-gay-marriage - so if personal experience is not enough to overcome these social strictures, what good can a little fiction do?

But if you think about it from a certain perspective, basically what you're saying is, "let's think about this issue and its effect solely in terms of its effect on clueless white people, and since it won't have the right effect on clueless white people, it's not worth doing."

But the conversation that's going on right now is not about how these stories affect *white people*.

It's like saying "why should I write anything but offensive, flat stereotypes of women?" You should write women as people not because of any potential effect on men, but because *women deserve better*. Women deserve to be able to pick up a book without wondering "is this book going to hurt me because the woman is only there for the exploitative rape scene, or to be handed over to the hero as a reward for his hard work, or to go crazy and tragically die alone because as we all know, women go nuts if they aren't fulfilled by a husband and babies?"

Maybe the point isn't "can this book save the world," but "is this book going to hurt people?" And if it is, then maybe it's not unreasonable to ask the author not to hurt people by misrepresenting them, lying about them, stereotyping them.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I think [livejournal.com profile] liviapenn kind of nailed it, because it's not so much that I think books have that much power to change society (occasionally one comes along that does exert an immediate and obvious impact, but they're the rare exception, not the rule). It's more that we know stories have a powerful emotional impact on us -- it's why we're all in fandom, right? -- and the posts that people are putting forward ([livejournal.com profile] deepad's post, this one by Avalon's Willow (http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html)) are pointing out how those stories, and the tropes in those stories, hurt and exclude them. As a writer, I don't want to perpetuate that. I think I'm inevitably going to -- I know I already have in some of the things I've written -- but I want to learn and grow and try to root out those cruel lies that have become embedded in my head so that I'm not accidentally poking people in the eye with the stories that I write (fanfic included).

It's really my fault if that doesn't come through in the above post. I'm trying to get the focus off me and my White!Girl!Angst! and onto doing things, making stuff, but I think I'm still flailing a bit in my attempts to do that.

[identity profile] livinglaurel.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Here from [livejournal.com profile] matociquala's comments -- this is a great post! Thank you for writing it.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. Deepad's essays are really fantastic and painful and absolutely a must-read for anyone who's in fandom, I think.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:14 pm (UTC)(link)
(Random side note: You know, there are a lot of Aussie SGA fans on my f'list. I don't know if it's just random drift or if there's something about SGA that is extremely appealing in Australia ...)

It bothers me to a point that this kind of discussion isn't seen more widely

I wish it was. I never really saw much of this at all before I came to LJ fandom -- I mean, it's not that these conversations weren't going on somewhere; obviously they have been for many years, but it was well outside my radar, and I had quite a lot of friends that I would otherwise think of as very socially active, socially aware (and not by any means all white, either). But these conversations just didn't happen ... still don't happen, usually, with people I know in RL. I don't think it's just Australia, though I do think that different countries probably approach the whole assimilation/erasure thing somewhat differently.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for this; I do think part of the problem here is a lack of clarity in my above post. I'm not used to talking about these things and I suspect that the above post probably derails into white-girl angst in places where it shouldn't.

Maybe the point isn't "can this book save the world," but "is this book going to hurt people?" And if it is, then maybe it's not unreasonable to ask the author not to hurt people by misrepresenting them, lying about them, stereotyping them.

That's exactly what I wanted to say, only much shorter. And better. :)
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[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't say or mean that we shouldn't make an effort to improve, to fight against stereotypes and worse in our fiction; I think that's absolutely worth doing. And I wasn't talking about the conversations going on now - which, as I said, I believe are important for writers and readers alike.

My point was more that the problems and injustices and privileges in our society run deep enough that I don't know if fiction really has much effect on them one way or another. Fiction can support societal norms (positive and negative alike) or it can contradict them; but I'm not sure it really has that much influence either way. It might - I don't know.

I guess - I just don't think we should be looking to fiction to change the world.

But this:

Maybe the point isn't "can this book save the world," but "is this book going to hurt people?" And if it is, then maybe it's not unreasonable to ask the author not to hurt people by misrepresenting them, lying about them, stereotyping them.

This I agree with, and is really what I was trying to say - that we should be fixing these problems in fiction not because it might help change society as a whole, but because it can change the little part of culture that is fiction.

But I think there's more that needs to be done than just white authors trying to write better character of color - I think for things to really change we need more *creators* of color. We can try, but our fiction is not going to be truly equal until our society is equal (at least the fiction-producing parts of it.)

The truth of the matter is, while I'm pleasantly surprised when a man writes good female characters, most of the shows I watch with truly strong, real women characters have real women involved in the production. It's not that men can't write women - but they need help doing it; they need to *know* some real women, they need to write with them, read their work. I think more women can write convincing male chars than vice versa (though certainly some women can't, either!), and that's not because women are better writers; it's just that we're used to the male voice in fiction; we've got plenty of examples of men writing men. Likewise, I think for a white chick like me to write convincing characters of color, I need more examples from people who know what they're writing about.

And yes, it's partly my responsibility as a writer to seek those examples out, to find what non-white fiction I can, and I do - but a lot of this debate has been about how difficult it is to find such examples. So it's a vicious cycle; lack of good examples means people have a harder time producing them, and then can't produce any themselves...

...And. Yeah. I don't have a conclusion here; I don't see an answer, really. We the dominant, privileged majority need to encourage non-white (...is there any better word than "non-white"? That one feels uncomfortable to me, I just don't know a less offensive alternative...) creators to produce; we need to encourage publishers to publish more by diverse writers, for TV studios to hire more non-white writers. We the audience - white and non-white alike - need to convince the publishers and producers that we want stories about people - not just people who are exactly like us (or rather what we're "supposed" to look like), but people who are different in some respects.

And I don't know how to do any of that. Which doesn't mean I don't think we should try - I absolutely think we should. I just don't know how, save to keep listening and keep trying, as best I can.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I mean, it's troubling when others point out how you have been unintentionally racist, sexist, unaware of imperialist colonial or other historical context, or otherwise clueless or offensive, but it happens, and then you try to be less racist and clueless the next time around.

Yeah, exactly! There's really no way you can possibly avoid screwing up; I mean, of course you can and should try not to, but we've all got so much crap embedded in our subconscious that it's inevitably going to come out in one way or another eventually, so you deal with it when it happens, and then try to do better next time.
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
And yes, it's partly my responsibility as a writer to seek those examples out, to find what non-white fiction I can, and I do - but a lot of this debate has been about how difficult it is to find such examples. So it's a vicious cycle; lack of good examples means people have a harder time producing them, and then can't produce any themselves...

*waves hand* I can rec you stuff! Actually I should do a recs post. I've been trying to seek out more PoC voices in fiction over the last few years, and while there should always be more, there is quite a lot that's good, and lots I haven't read yet. I know there are quite a few recs posts of other people's floating around -- I've learned of quite a bit by word of mouth. (And one shouldn't discount manga either...)

At the same time, I do appreciate what you said in your other post about being more focused on gender than race these days; I think the thing is, though, that as a writer (fanwriter or otherwise), you don't have to be writing about it as a specific issue to be more aware of not screwing it up. I'm not saying that you do screw it up. But like [livejournal.com profile] liviapenn's example of writing women as people -- you don't have to be writing about gender issues in order to do that; it's something that we all ought to be doing anyway. Ditto for avoiding racist stereotypes and tropes in our fiction, as well as we can.
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[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I admit - I'm trying to fit this in with the idea of made spaces, with the idea that some fiction is just not for me and I'm okay with that, and likewise there is fiction that is for me, and I'm okay with that, too. Slashers should not be required to write gen just because I like gen, and likewise gen fen should not be obliged to write slash.

And I realize these are two different circumstances, and let me make this clear, I am not saying the "minority" of gen-fen can at all be compared to the experience of actual minorities, when it comes to fiction or certainly not anything else. I especially think that things like TV shows and movies do have a certain social obligation, because they do play to a wider audience; and novels are limited by what publishers are willing to publish. One of [livejournal.com profile] deepad's points, as I understood it, was that many minorities, worldwide, are denied their "space" in fiction, because white/Western/American culture is so dominant. And that is seriously problematic, and I can understand that hurt (I've wanted to get into American comics for years, and keep failing because there is almost no space for women readers; to imagine that experience across all fiction - yes, that's painful.)

And I don't want all fiction divided into spaces - I don't want to read about white-washed universes; that's not the world I live in!

At the same time...putting it in this context, when I think about me trying to write, say, a hero from a different culture than my own - then I end up thinking what it'd be like for a straight guy to be writing slash fic, not because it was what he wanted to write, but because he nobly thought women needed more fiction "for them". The discomfort of cultural appropriation.

(That's not quite what it would be, because I don't write non-white heroes out of some social obligation but because I'm fascinated by human cultures in general, and also for purely aesthetic reasons. And here is when I start to think I should just stick to fantasies on complete other worlds, with no connection to actual Earth ethnicities, and leave all these problems behind...!)
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[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2009-01-15 06:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think that happens nearly as often as people think it does, though! I can think of plenty of times that people have claimed they're being attacked and accused of being racist, etc, but then if you look back at the original post, they're taking the "attack" out of context or accusing the person of things they just didn't say.

I really saw that in this exchange (http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html?thread=30812455#t30812455) in [livejournal.com profile] matociquala's comments regarding Avalon's Willow's post (http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html). What he claims she's saying is not what she's saying. She's not accusing anyone of being a racist; she's speaking mostly of her own hurt and anger, not putting it off on someone else. It's a straw man and a misrepresentation. I am not the first to make this point by any means, but a lot of times in these discussions someone will say "You did a racist thing" and the other person hears "You're a racist and a bad person!" It doesn't matter if the criticism was couched in the politest possible terms. They still hear an attack.

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