sholio | And then I thought, what the hell

And then I thought, what the hell

If you're tired of LJ drama, RUN AWAY NOW.

I figured that since it's become fairly obvious that Patrick Nielson Hayden, aka

pnh, is not going to unscreen the comments I posted at his blog yesterday in regards to the whole cultural appropriation failboating thing, I'd repost 'em here.

In response to this thread, I replied to this comment:

Listen, I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I assumed that you saw a friend who said she'd been attacked, and stepped in to defend her without getting the facts of the situation. It happens. I've done it too.

But what I'm getting from this comment and others that you've left elsewhere is that you already knew what was going on, you'd been through the discussions at Bear and Monette's blogs and elsewhere, and you went ahead and jumped to her defense and made the "some people are smarter than others" comment anyway.

Since I've generally found "Making Light" to be thought-provoking and well-informed, you can't possibly be unaware of the long and nasty history of white culture portraying people of color as stupid, irrational and unreasonable. You are educated and intelligent and aware of race issues. Therefore, lack of awareness or inability to reason through the situation is not a defense that you can claim either.

Buddy, there's a reason why people are saying that you said a racist thing. You did. And right now, I'm regretting giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you just didn't realize the implications of what you're saying, because I'm getting the very strong impression that you know exactly what you said, and about whom you said it -- and you're defending it anyway.

And as for the disclaimer that you quote from mac_stone's post? If I may be so blunt -- bullshit.

It's buried at the bottom of 80+ comments.

She made a public post (and it's not as if it's difficult to lock posts on LJ), after having a very public dust-up on a well-known writer's blog with a relatively well-known blogger of color. She's already posted about the whole situation once within the last couple of days. Logically, what are people going to assume that she's talking about? And the rest of the commenters appear to be assuming that it is, indeed, the racism kerfluffle that's being discussed. If that's not what mac_stone is talking about, she had plenty of opportunity to say, "No, I'm not talking about Avalon's Willow et al". When the timing of the post is that suggestive, if she's not talking about the specific handful of people who are involved in the racism discussion, she'd better be damn clear about that. She did not say so; she has not; and yes, therefore, I think it is absolutely reasonable to infer that her list of abuse bullet points are meant to refer to the people she's been publicly arguing with online. Which makes her disclaimer look like just that -- a disclaimer, the weasel words that are stamped on the shampoo bottle so that you can't sue the manufacturer if you ignore them and eat the stuff.

If she (and for that matter, you, with this post) didn't want to make a very public deal out of that little dust-up on Bear's blog, there are plenty of other options. She could have made a locked post; she could have vented via email, in chat, in a dozen different ways. After having a widely-linked altercation at a blog with 2500 people watching it, it's not as if her own blog is a private little corner of the Internet at the moment. Unfair? Yes. But you can't be on the Internet for any length of time without noticing that nothing you post in public is private or inviolate. Don't stand up and talk trash about someone where they and their friends can hear you if you don't expect to hear from them, too.

If I observe that some people aren't very smart and a bunch of people I never heard of take personal offense, that's really not my problem.

Fair enough, certainly. One is not obligated to consider the impact of one's words on others. However, you have used those words to imply that a black woman is less intelligent than the white woman who is arguing with her, and "can't sort out the difference between [her] inner feelings and the exterior world of discourse", and then to protest that you didn't name names so you weren't talking about the people everyone thinks you were talking about. You used those words to hurt people, and now you claim no responsibility, and I find that behavior disgusting.

And then there's this thread, wherein I replied to this comment:

Oh, for pete's sake ...

It's not a false confession if you did hurt them, unintentionally or otherwise. You, and others in this discussion, seem to be assuming that if you didn't intend to cause pain, if the other person heard implications in your words that you didn't intend to put there, then you're not responsible for any effects that your words may have had. In essence, you become the sole arbiter of your own culpability. If you didn't mean to hurt the other person, then he must not be hurting! And there's sure as hell nothing you can do about it! Why would you even try? I mean, it's not your fault, and not your problem. And I'm getting the impression that it's far more important to you to be right than to ease another person's pain.

One possible "out" is that you can sympathize with their pain without saying "I did X." "I'm sorry you're hurting." Why is that so incredibly hard for people to do? Why don't we teach it in grade school as a simple life-coping strategy?

Or maybe, just maybe, you could decide that for someone who's rarely received an apology for a wrong done to them, it might mean a lot to them if you apologize, and cost very little to you.

You know what this reminds me of? Work. I supervise people, and it never ceases to amaze me how my little office staff of intelligent, educated, middle-aged white-collar professionals will absolutely refuse to say "I'm sorry" to each other. They'll nurse grudges for months, carefully marshalling blame and ranging their arguments as to just who exactly was responsible for what tiny fractional slight. Because no one can bend enough to admit that they might not have been 100% justified, their every action perfectly moral and upright.

Frankly, I'm stunned and appalled that the simple fact that another human being is standing there in front of you, hurting, doesn't make you want to ameliorate his pain, especially with something as simple as an apology. Instead, your response is to argue semantics, to make it about yourself, to tell him that you aren't to blame when, all the while, he's standing there hurting. I ... I just have no words.

Yeah, I know he's perfectly within his rights to leave them screened (it's his blog, after all), and this is probably quite petty, but ... gah. I'm feeling petty today.

Edited to add: If you're still following this, I recommend that you check out

rydra_wong's latest linkspam (special "OH JOHN RINGO NO" edition). If not, seriously, all you need to know is that some of the biggish names in SFF publishing are making asshats of themselves. Again. And now I'm off to make tea. I need tea.

ETA2: I just realized that some of the concepts in the first above-cited comment were almost certainly appropriated from

zvi_likes_tv's post here. At this point I think a lot of different arguments are percolating into my subconscious and popping out in various places, but I didn't mean to take your words and repeat them as my own.

ETA3: As of this typing,

pnh,

medievalist and

mac_stone have ALL taken down their journals. (Well, in the last case, taken down all content and expressed intent to go read-only.) I've basically gotten past the WTF? point to where all I can do is laugh. I thought I'd seen some spectacular hissy fits in comics fandom, but this takes the cake.

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Tea is SO, SO NECESSARY right now.

I don't think there's any need to apologize for 'not being able to let this go.' Why should you let it go? It's important. It matters. ♥

But it's good that you're not letting go! People like this need to be challenged every step of the way.

Like someone said, this is why humanity is not allowed to have nice things!

Tea makes things better! :D (Well ... not so much, really. But it's hot and tasty, and I needed that.)

Thank you for posting there--great comments!

And, wow, it looks as if

pnh is taking a break (maybe he took some friends' advice??)

Thanks. I do kind of feel like I'm blindsiding my usual blog readers by bringing the drama in a way I normally don't, but I guess everybody just skips over the posts that they don't want to read; it's part of being on LJ.

... and OMG, I just noticed the strikethrough on PNH's name! What, he deleted his blog now?! I, I just ... THESE PEOPLE!

Because what this situation needed was a flounce! *facepalm*

You should be petty. Like you, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt for a while, but once he clearly was told the context there was no excuse. Good comments!!!

(and he deleted his LJ? Would a simple I'm sorry. I fucked up. be so much harder???)

Like someone said, this is why humanity is not allowed to have nice things!

So true ...

I KNOW! I mean ... this is just basic Blogfail 101 stuff here. *joins you in your facepalm*

Thanks -- and yeah, I just saw the strikethrough, and headdesked a lot. I suppose that maybe it's a good thing to do such a drastic withdrawal if he's realized that he can't engage sensibly with the situation and can't stop trying to engage. On the other hand, doing THAT at this point in the conversation just looks like he's flouncing away in a huff (as

sheafrotherdon said).

(and he deleted his LJ? Would a simple I'm sorry. I fucked up. be so much harder???)

God, I know! And I'm still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and wondering if it's just because he's trying to avoid getting further engaged in a debate where he's plainly not coming off well. But it really just looks like he's picked up his toys and run away.

Anyway, thanks.

*loves on you a lot*

And I'm getting the impression that it's far more important to you to be right than to ease another person's pain.

Yes. That's exactly what was going on.

I can't speak to Bear's work, but I've read War for the Oaks, and I had a very different reading of it than Willow did. That's not to say she's wrong, just that there are more than one valid interpretations. But I wasn't about to say that, not when Ms. Bull--an author whose work I've enjoyed and who I found to be a very nice person--was more interested in maintaining her "self-pride" by not apologizing to someone she'd hurt. Apparently if you didn't mean it, it doesn't count.

What the FUCK, people?

Definitely, though am snickering because I just commented to somebody else about how it totally was a flounce!

Ah, fandom, how thou hast influenced me! (My friends in the dept. love the "Do not apply Earth logic!" saying and how it applies so well to academic situations!

I've only been following this peripherally (having been involved in discussions like these in the past, and promising never to do it again), but I just have to say that I love the icon you used for this. The cyclical nature of it is, well, perfect for this sort of discussion.

That, and I'm really impressed you've kept your cool for so long. I couldn't have done it. I've always found this is something that cuts too close to the bone for folks, engendering responses that go from oversensitive extremism to blindingly stupid ignorance. You've found some of the more blindingly stupid ones, and I'm so sorry.

I hope the tea helped! :)

*loves on you right back*

Your comments in that thread were thoughtful, well-worded and true. Unfortunately everyone was too busy defending their own stung pride to listen.

I just got it from here! (http://community.livejournal.com/quoteymcquote/2804.html) I love that book.

Anyway ... thanks. You know what's really unfortunate about this is that there was a really interesting discussion going on around the 'net -- some really fascinating posts that I was reading and taking to heart as an author. And then the so-called professionals came in and pretty much blew it up for everybody. Aaargh.

Oh my god, they've ALL flounced off now!

pnh,

medievalist and

mac_stone too! All I can do is sit here and laugh. There just aren't words.

I find it interesting that so many people have leaped to defend Elizabeth Bear when she's made it quite clear she doesn't feel attacked *facepalm*

I'm pretty sure that they're well beyond the defending-Elizabeth-Bear point by now. Actually, I don't know what they're doing now, quite frankly. Though, yes, you're very right about the unasked-for defense. With friends like these, she doesn't need enemies...

I find the backlash distasteful and sad. I thought (and evidently so did she ;) that the criticisms of her post were fair, well written and thought-provoking. I know I've actively started changing my thinking and the way I've read some of my favourite (albeit flawed) stories, thanks to this discussion. It's terrible that these vicious people are bailing on the chance to learn just because they can't get over themselves and admit they might be wrong. To attack the people pointing it out instead... Well, "your ass is showing" is an understatement.

I don't think I know these people (though pnh's name is bothering me, as it sounds familiar? Should I know it from somewhere? Other than that I keep reading it as NPH and then have to reassure myself that no, Neil Patrick Harris (<3) is not making an ass of himself online...)

In other news, I don't know why so many people are so freaked out about saying "I'm sorry." It's really not that hard! And it can make your life so much easier, to say nothing of other people's!

He and his wife author a blog called Making Light (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/), which tends to be pretty widely linked in the liberal/creative blogosphere.

And ... yeah ... I don't get the "I'm sorry" thing, either, though I've certainly been as guilty of it as anyone else -- it's really easy to dig in your heels and insist you've done nothing wrong, regardless of what you're being accused of. I suspect it's some kind of deep-seated human psyche thing going on.

Quite unreleatedly, today I happened upon a comment from a professional screenwriter that sounded sensible, and immediately made me think that you'd like to read it.

It's tricky when you're writing about other cultures. In Hollywood you can just make them the villain. Or, our [Canadian] tendency is to make them saints. You're afraid of any backlash. Any character who's Native has to be a saint, any black has to be a saint. I think that's dehumanizing. When I write characters that are not my ethnicity or religion, I try to give them the same dimensions that I give the nice Canadian girl that's going to be a peacekeeper. They have to be as flawed as I am.

He talks about his project that's coming out soonish, a serial set in Bosnia. The interview is on Epstein's blog (http://complicationsensue.blogspot.com/) and that quote comes from part three. And guess what: it's Malcom Macrury, of Deadwood fame.

I really have been staying clear of most of this storm, primarily because I feel like my time's better spent digging the target="new">mote out of my own eye (http://www.vogelein.com/JanerBlog/2009/01/#001067) rather than pointing at other people's specks. Learning to listen, listen, listen. So much good is going on here that the drama's actually worth it for once.

And in relation to that, if you haven't seen this post from Kynn, (via the amazing rydra_wong), you're missing out. (http://kynn.livejournal.com/940698.html)

Ha ... *I* was going to send *you* that link! It's definitely going in my file-to-save. It touches on many of the issues that I currently have with RC, and why I feel that I need to either abandon it entirely, or re-imagine large swathes of it if I'm going to continue writing it.

What is going on?

Interesting! I'll check out the interview.

Basically, my list of "authors to read" is shrinking somewhat.

rydra_wong has some good link roundups if you want to pursue it.

Thanks for your comments and support during all this!

Thank you. :)

I'm proud of you for having your say. As much as I can learn things from these posts (and I mean in a good way) I end up feeling like I should bang my head against the desk. It isn't hard to say sorry when you say something that may hurt someone else.

Thank you. :) I've appreciated your comments, too!

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