B5 4x04-06

[sholio]

Before I get to these episodes, I just want to say how much I'm enjoying the opening credits this season! I love the rotating voiceovers across the whole cast, and I also love what they've done with Londo's cast picture on the credits as well, from the jokey one in seasons 1-2, to the sinister one of season three, and now we have Londo watching the fall of Narn with visible shock and regret. It's just a great way of underscoring his character development throughout the seasons.

Moving on to the next part of the show, through "Into the Fire"!


• First of all, please enjoy this gifset of Vir and Londo hugging. They really deserved it after that run of episodes. And they're just so sweet - the way Vir starts to say something, starts to walk away, then turns around and is obviously going for a hug but turns it into a shoulder pat until Londo goes ahead and clearly reciprocates. And then they just kind of hold each other and lean into each other, and the way Londo runs his hand down Vir's arm as he lets him go! There's such a sense of, not boss and employee or mentor/mentee as they generally are, but two friends and (momentary, anyway) equals who really care about each other.

• Cannot believe those two idiots pulled off not just a successful political assassination, but a coup. (However accidental that part was.) I didn't think they had it in them, but they did.

• Also Londo fucking BLEW UP 100 SHADOW SHIPS. I cannot get over that it was such a huge moment when Sheridan killed one for the first time at the start of season three, and then Londo just wiped out a whole freaking fleet. (I know it's different when they're on the ground, but still!) That was one hell of a badass moment, topped only by Londo turning around and very seriously telling Vir to kill him when it turned out that wasn't enough, the Vorlon planetkiller was still coming for them because there was still one Shadow-touched thing on Centauri Prime, and it was him. I love that this is a constant thread, that we first saw in season one: for all his flaws, he will die in a heartbeat for what's right when it really matters, and he won't even hesitate.

• I cannot even with G'Kar and Londo and Vir in 4x05. The writing on this show is just so stellar. "Your heart is empty. Did you know that?" And the realization that G'Kar could have broken his chains any time he wanted to, he simply didn't until the moment was right. (Through all of that. The whipping. Having his eye put out.) And drunk Vir, absolutely shattered by having killed someone, however deserving, with Londo at first verbally flagellating him and then offering comfort, however bleak. "You still have your heart, and it is a good one. .... My honor is all I have left."

• It's such an interesting choice that the liberation of the Narns was so bleak. There's celebrating going on elsewhere and we see the edges of it (also: G'kar trying singlehandedly to stop the cycle of violence and prevent the Narns from turning right around and starting it again, oh G'Kar!), but in general what we see with Our Characters is bleakness and violence and the shady deals that made it possible and the terrible, terrible cost. Even Londo, though he's less obviously scarred by the whole thing than G'Kar or Vir, has given essentially everything he was or could have been to end up here, and his political triumph is undercut by keeping his promise to free Narn, which made him a host of enemies on Centauri Prime. (That being said, it is kind of hilarious how Londo inevitably, tragically fails upward. He pulled off a coup and became one of the most powerful men on the planet, and that wasn't even what he was trying to do!)

• Cannot believe the Shadow-Vorlon war is over in early season 4, and they're both gone now! WHAT. I did not osmose that AT ALL.

• Once we got the whole story of the Vorlons and the Shadows, it's interesting to think about the reflections between the Vorlons and Shadows and their millennia-long, galaxy-spanning conflict vs the Narns and Centauri being a microcosm of the same thing. (I like thinking of the Narns and Centauri, humans and Minbari being the new Elder Races many thousands of years from now, shepherding new species to their spacefaring future with the benefit of all the mistakes they made and learned from.)

• The part with Sheridan having to order Ericson's ship on a suicide mission was really tragic, and I'm impressed as usual with how sad the show managed to make the death of this guy we saw for a couple of minutes and never saw before or will see again. Also a bit amazed that they just straight up assassinated the replacement Vorlon minister. (I get why they had to send Garibaldi and his security team without telling them what the plan was, since they didn't know how well the Vorlons could read them, but that was still pretty cold.)

• So now the First Ones are completely gone (in theory) and the young races are alone, ready to make their own destiny. It's interesting how well this works as a kind of stopping place, if you wanted to put a pin in the series at some point when things are kind of basically okay and you could look ahead to an AU in which they all just have fun space adventures and nothing hurts and everything is okay. (That being said, I'm looking forward to getting back to it, not least because I need to find out what happens with My Precious Space Blorbos - Londo and G'Kar and Vir most of all, at the moment - but it does make a not too bad stopping place for a kind of mental break point before things inevitably go off the rails in a new kind of horrible way.)

Comments

[sovay]

First of all, please enjoy this gifset of Vir and Londo hugging. They really deserved it after that run of episodes.

SERIOUSLY.

Also Londo fucking BLEW UP 100 SHADOW SHIPS. I cannot get over that it was such a huge moment when Sheridan killed one for the first time at the start of season three, and then Londo just wiped out a whole freaking fleet. (I know it's different when they're on the ground, but still!) That was one hell of a badass moment

"Actually, now that you mention it . . ."

The scorched earth of that field of fucks is of course partly fueled by that agonizing discovery earlier of the real culprit behind the assassination of Adira Tyree, but it also makes trinitite-clear how much Morden—and by extension the Shadows—epically screwed the pooch in their choice of catspaw, because while he can be tempted, misled, or sunk cost fallacied into any number of ethically-practically dreadful decisions, Londo cannot actually be bluffed or bullied or bribed out of doing the right thing once he's figured out what it is. Getting to that point does traditionally, admittedly involve far too much oh Londo no, but once his moral compass hits north, good luck budging the needle. You are totally correct to link that scene with the second half of the one-two punch—

Londo turning around and very seriously telling Vir to kill him when it turned out that wasn't enough, the Vorlon planetkiller was still coming for them because there was still one Shadow-touched thing on Centauri Prime, and it was him. I love that this is a constant thread, that we first saw in season one: for all his flaws, he will die in a heartbeat for what's right when it really matters, and he won't even hesitate.

—because it's the one true thing about him. I don't even know if he knows it about himself. But he's come through every time and we already know he'll do so at least once more. When the chips are down, he will not let anyone else pay his own price.

And drunk Vir, absolutely shattered by having killed someone, however deserving, with Londo at first verbally flagellating him and then offering comfort, however bleak.

I love this scene so much, and it's also a scene that wouldn't work if Vir hadn't started out so as such a marginal and comedically negligible character, and then he too tears out of the heart of the show and walks off with it.

THANK GOD THEY BOTH GOT HUGS.

(That being said, it is kind of hilarious how Londo inevitably, tragically fails upward. He pulled off a coup and became one of the most powerful men on the planet, and that wasn't even what he was trying to do!)

Yes! Because at this point any rise in status is another stepping stone to his inevitable end-of-life as Emperor, but he is so totally unprepared to be kicked upstairs to a prime ministership. He wasn't scheming for it. I'm sure all of his co-conspirators assumed he was, it's a totally Centauri thing to do, but whoops.

The part with Sheridan having to order Ericson's ship on a suicide mission was really tragic, and I'm impressed as usual with how sad the show managed to make the death of this guy we saw for a couple of minutes and never saw before or will see again.

When Bryan Cranston exploded into stardom with Breaking Bad, he kept looking familiar to me, and I have never really gotten over the fact that because I live generally under a pop-cultural rock, this one appearance on Babylon 5 turned out to be why.

[sholio]

This was the run of episodes where I finally fell utterly, inexorably, and completely for Vir. I liked him quite a lot already - much more so than I ever thought I would or could in his first couple of episodes - but from his willingness and courage in backing Londo, to his half-snarled "Kill him" after he sees what Cartagia is doing to G'Kar, to his actually striking the killing blow on the Emperor, his guilt and regret, his ongoing loyalty and genuine love for Londo even when everyone else has deemed Londo unloveable - and those unexpected moments when he shows a core of steel, like striking the killing blow, or following Londo into hell if necessary, or the little wave goodbye to Morden even after he was ripped apart by seeing Cartagia's face as he died. He really has become one of my absolute favorites on the show.

Morden—and by extension the Shadows—epically screwed the pooch in their choice of catspaw, because while he can be tempted, misled, or sunk cost fallacied into any number of ethically-practically dreadful decisions, Londo cannot actually be bluffed or bullied or bribed out of doing the right thing once he's figured out what it is. Getting to that point does traditionally, admittedly involve far too much oh Londo no, but once his moral compass hits north, good luck budging the needle.

This is so accurate, and so well put. It's not that Londo doesn't have the will to do right, it's that he struggles to know what right is, and what to put his faith in. It's just so telling that his fury over finding out the true culprit of Adira's death was clearly seasoned with hurt, because he trusted Morden - even after all the many obvious reasons not to, even after nearly anyone else would have managed to notice at least one of the red flags waving all around Morden. But Londo didn't know; he's so utterly primed by his nature to trust people who he likes, who offer him friendship and obvious reciprocal signs of trust. From his government to his world to people who he likes, he's constantly reaching out, and the worst part is that his own wrong choices have made so many of the people who he would have reached out to, and leaned on, pull back from or reject him, leaving him only the ones who are reaching back for all the wrong reasons.

One thing that makes his eventual end less tragic for me than it could have been is that he's finally found people to put his trust in who deserve it: Delenn and Sheridan to save his world, and G'Kar to save him.

And it's also really interesting that G'Kar seems to recognize this "utter adherence to moral true north" thing about Londo, even when he hates him. I was impressed by G'Kar trusting him to the very impressive extent that he did during their team-up for Refa's assassination, but this is far beyond that - G'Kar is enduring unimaginable pain and disfigurement, hinging his entire people's freedom and his own willingness to sacrifice his health and life around Londo keeping a promise, which he has every reason to believe (based on all his dealings with Londo's people, and a certain amount of Londo's own behavior) that Londo will not do. And yet, when it comes right down to it, as absolutely insane as it is, G'Kar puts absolute faith in Londo to keep his word, no matter what. And Londo does.

[lyr]

Cannot believe the Shadow-Vorlon war is over in early season 4, and they're both gone now! WHAT. I did not osmose that AT ALL.

It wasn't really supposed to be. The show was supposed to be 5 seasons and had been planned out for that, but in the 4th season the network announced they were cancelling it at the end of the season. Suddenly timelines had to be sped up so things could wrap with the season 4 finale. But then it got uncancelled, and timelines had to be readjusted again when the season was almost over.

[sholio]

That explains what feels like a very compressed timeline! I appreciate that they seem to have still given the Centauri-Narn plot time to breathe; that doesn't really feel compressed at all, while I can definitely see the Vorlon-Shadow war being drawn out over a full season if they had been able to.

[sovay]

but from his willingness and courage in backing Londo, to his half-snarled "Kill him" after he sees what Cartagia is doing to G'Kar, to his actually striking the killing blow on the Emperor, his guilt and regret, his ongoing loyalty and genuine love for Londo even when everyone else has deemed Londo unloveable - and those unexpected moments when he shows a core of steel, like striking the killing blow, or following Londo into hell if necessary, or the little wave goodbye to Morden even after he was ripped apart by seeing Cartagia's face as he died.

All of this! Vir is an incredible portrait of a good person who is not a flat character and one of the things I love about his arc is how much of it is him discovering his own depths as much as the audience does. Some of it is that painful paradox that if he had had the modest, quiet life which was all he ever dreamed of, he would never have discovered his own strength or integrity: it wouldn't have been asked of him. But all of it turns out to be steel-true.

(I really love the little wave.)

This is so accurate, and so well put.

Thank you! And sorry about the continuing edits: I kept thinking of things.

It's not that Londo doesn't have the will to do right, it's that he struggles to know what right is, and what to put his faith in.

I love this way of framing it. It's all part of the same coin: he wouldn't have been susceptible to the Shadows if he hadn't been ambitious, not for himself, but for Centauri Prime, and he wouldn't have turned against them unless ditto.

But Londo didn't know; he's so utterly primed by his nature to trust people who he likes, who offer him friendship and obvious reciprocal signs of trust.

And I love that you isolate this trait about him, because it's true and it's such a fascinating blind spot to give a character as deeply political as Londo—though perhaps it explains why his star never rose as high as it was suggested by his younger days, if he kept giving the benefit of the doubt and getting bitten by it.

One thing that makes his eventual end less tragic for me than it could have been is that he's finally found people to put his trust in who deserve it: Delenn and Sheridan to save his world, and G'Kar to save him.

Stop saying things that make me want to rewatch this show or break out crying!

And yet, when it comes right down to it, as absolutely insane as it is, G'Kar puts absolute faith in Londo to keep his word, no matter what. And Londo does.

Yes.

[princessofgeeks]

Yeah I remember being totes emotionally exhausted at this point.

[sholio]

It was A Lot!

[sholio]

Vir is an incredible portrait of a good person who is not a flat character and one of the things I love about his arc is how much of it is him discovering his own depths as much as the audience does. Some of it is that painful paradox that if he had had the modest, quiet life which was all he ever dreamed of, he would never have discovered his own strength or integrity: it wouldn't have been asked of him. But all of it turns out to be steel-true.

Yes! And I discounted him at first, too. I don't really tend to latch onto characters who are uncomplicatedly nice, and I would never have guessed that he would be one of my absolute favorites on the show by this point. As well as uncovering his own unsuspected depths and strength, there's also the fact that he's gone through three and a half seasons of Centauri politics, as well as dealing with Londo at Londo's absolute worst, and being dragged through a bunch of Londo's bad decisions and unethical deals, and he's *still* come out of that with his basic integrity and kindness intact.

though perhaps it explains why his star never rose as high as it was suggested by his younger days, if he kept giving the benefit of the doubt and getting bitten by it.

I could totally see that for him, honestly! And there's also the thing you said in a previous conversation about Londo having let go of his basic idealism and embraced cynicism relatively recently, as only a disillusioned idealist can. We know that he's good at political wheeling and dealing when he goes for it, and it's possible that he just hadn't been ruthless enough to really get ahead in the cutthroat Centauri court until recently. But Londo repeatedly setting himself up for failure by following and trusting the wrong people seems like something he would definitely do.

*cries in Londo Mollari*

(Edit: also, no need to apologize for the edits, I also tend to reshape sentences after I've written them, and I know how new thoughts or better phrasing tends to show up after posting!)

[hamsterwoman]

I love your and sovay's discussion of Londo's character above <3

Also, I can now break out the B5 icon which I haven't been using so far in your comments :D

"You still have your heart, and it is a good one. .... My honor is all I have left."

Another very Bujoldean-feeling line, btw.

but it does make a not too bad stopping place for a kind of mental break point

We pretty much stopped here in my rewatch (which also means my memories of what follows from here will be almost 30 years old instead of 10-15, and not backed up by write-ups. Unless I end up tempted into a rewatch of my own...

[sovay]

As well as uncovering his own unsuspected depths and strength, there's also the fact that he's gone through three and a half seasons of Centauri politics, as well as dealing with Londo at Londo's absolute worst, and being dragged through a bunch of Londo's bad decisions and unethical deals, and he's *still* come out of that with his basic integrity and kindness intact.

Yes! And it isn't a matter of innocence at this point: it's not the folktale of not knowing how to shiver. He's known how to shiver for years. It's just that it doesn't stop him from having a spine, a heart, or that delightful thing that no one ever sees coming where with the right provocation he can read them for filth.

I could totally see that for him, honestly! And there's also the thing you said in a previous conversation about Londo having let go of his basic idealism and embraced cynicism relatively recently, as only a disillusioned idealist can. We know that he's good at political wheeling and dealing when he goes for it, and it's possible that he just hadn't been ruthless enough to really get ahead in the cutthroat Centauri court until recently.

He just seems to take so much damage from so many of his manoeuvers in ways that he wouldn't if he were hardened to their costs, which as discussed repeatedly did not stop him from going through with them, but did leave a rather zero-to-sixty feel on the OH LONDO NO.

But Londo repeatedly setting himself up for failure by following and trusting the wrong people seems like something he would definitely do.

For all the likeness Londo sees between his younger self and Vir which I happen to subscribe to, on this point they differ sharply: Vir's instincts on who to trust are—however much he second-guesses himself about it—sterling. He's right that there's something in Londo worth not giving up on. The Shadows can offer him nothing that he really wants, especially that dream of a Centauri golden age that Vir knows was gone by his lifetime and never coming back. It's more than the narrative function of Londo's conscience, I think. Londo wants so much for Vir not to end up like him, but there was always something in Vir that Londo only learned late in life and the hard way.

*cries in Londo Mollari*

MOOD.

(Edit: also, no need to apologize for the edits, I also tend to reshape sentences after I've written them, and I know how new thoughts or better phrasing tends to show up after posting!)

(Appreciated!)

[sovay]

Also, I can now break out the B5 icon which I haven't been using so far in your comments

I adore your icon.

[hamsterwoman]

Thank you! :) It's by curtana, who I did not realize until checking just now goes by naryrising these days. She made some amazing B5 icons back in the day!