sholio: bear raising paw and text that says "hi" (Bear)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2019-12-03 04:32 pm

Leaning into your premise

Just FYI, my latest book as Zoe, Dancer Dragon, is out on Amazon now.

--

There's something I've been thinking about lately, after some conversations with [personal profile] rachelmanija about ... well, it didn't even start out about writing at all; it was just that she was looking for books set in circuses and observing how few books with circuses in the title and/or on the cover are actually ABOUT CIRCUSES. And then we got to talking about it, and now I'm seeing examples everywhere of books (and movies, TV shows, etc) that promise to be about something interesting and then disappoint because they don't lean in. There's a circus on the cover, but only one chapter is set there, or the whole book is set there but it might as well be anywhere because they never really do circusy things.

It's intriguing to me how often books/movies do this, and how I've never actually seen this (as such) in any advice I've ever read -- lean into your premise, your setting, whatever's unique about your characters. Use it. I guess it's sort of a Chekhov's gun kind of thing (that everything in the book should serve an eventual purpose) but it's not exactly that. It's more like, if you're going to put ghosts in your book, why not use them to do uniquely ghosty things rather than just floating onstage for their one moment? If your protagonist is a con artist, she shouldn't solve problems like a normal law-abiding person would! I think a number of the works of fiction that have disappointed me have done it because, on some level, they were failing to do this. I can remember being annoyed, for example, with books that tell you about somewhere fascinating the characters might go, but never actually take you there.

(Insert obligatory disclaimer that it also depends on what an individual finds interesting; some people will be there for the detailed descriptions of dressmaking and some really wish you'd skip the dresses and get straight to the murder, etc.)

But honestly, even if it's not something the reader is actually into, I think that writing it so that it fills the page makes it interesting. I could not have cared less about either sailing or the Napoleonic Wars, but Patrick O'Brian's books are wall-to-wall both of those things, and they actually make me care about page after page of nautical terminology and blow-by-blow descriptions of battles, because he cares. You can practically feel the creaking of the deck under your feet.

... And you know, like anything else, not everything interesting has to appear on the page; maybe being stuck somewhere the protagonist finds dull is the plot. But I mean, even there, the reader shouldn't be bored, reading it; the dullness of the setting should fill the page until it becomes fascinating, like the vivid grayness of Dorothy's Kansas. The issue is when, as a reader, you find yourself thinking, "Why did you even tell me about that interesting thing if you weren't going to show it?"

To be fair, Dancer Dragon probably could lean in a lot more than it does. If readers are reading it for detailed descriptions of ballroom dancing they're probably going to be disappointed. On the other hand, there's definitely dancing in it; it's just really more of a thing the plot wraps around than the main plot. There's also the problem that what I know about ballroom dancing could fill a very small thimble with room left over.

I got some negative reviews on the first book in the series, Bearista, because it didn't have enough coffee shop in it! I mean, you wouldn't think coffee shops are something that people reading a romance novel would really care about, but they actually did; the premise promised a big dude working in a coffee shop, but we actually only got a couple chapters of that before Plot Happened and he ended up exiting stage right pursued by bears (literally). In retrospect I think the book those readers wanted to read would have been a fascinating book, and maybe I should write that book eventually.

Anyway, I don't really have a point here so much as ... I don't think this should be treated as any kind of a hard-and-fast rule, but it's another tool in the toolkit for editing and tightening a flabby plot. If your story feels flat, maybe you need to lean into the premise a bit more.

[personal profile] indywind 2019-12-04 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
"In terms of avoiding the infodump, the thing that works for me (both as a reader and I hope as a writer) is use the context to make it how people think about what they're experiencing, and putting it into that situation. And then, as necessary, adding enough detail that a reader who doesn't know the thing can get the relevant stuff from context."


Yes, this. Well-written leaning-in details don't just give the details with disinterested omniscience, the story - by way of the narrative voice/focus and/or the characters - shows the reader why the details are interesting or relevant, how to think and feel about them.





copperfyre: (grass heads)

[personal profile] copperfyre 2019-12-04 07:15 pm (UTC)(link)
This is such a great post, and there are so many great comments on it. I've never really managed to articulate this concept before, but you're so right! Now I'm realising that so much of my enjoyment of fiction comes from having a premise and really, really embracing it
starwatcher: Western windmill, clouds in background, trees around base. (Default)

[personal profile] starwatcher 2019-12-04 07:54 pm (UTC)(link)
.
You make a good point about a book being "all-in" with its premise, but I think the folks who wanted more coffeeshop AU in Bearista are trying to mix two separate genres. I wonder if those disappointed folks are accustomed to fanfic coffeeshop AUs, where the whole point is to have the characters in a relaxed, non-pressure atmosphere where romance -- or friendship -- can blossom in a kind of tasty bubble where the world doesn't intrude.

BUT! Bearista is part of your Bodyguard Universe; by definition, his job is to guard a particular body. Once the danger appears and he needs to do his job, it would be unprofessional to keep serving coffee and pastry while his client is running from the bad guy!

In other words, you wrote the action/true-mate/romance that the genre called for (very well, by the way) instead of a starry-eyed getting-to-know-you-over-coffee romance. The latter is a lot of fun to read, but a reader shouldn't expect that kind of vibe in an action-romance series, just because a cofffeeshop is a convenient place for the bodyguard to do his job.

And I popped right over to Amazon yesterday to buy Dancer Dragon. Working my way through Shifter Dads right now, then I'll have to catch up with the bodyguards. I like so wait until I have 3 or 4 to read in a row, so I remember who's who. But it'll sit comfortably in my Zoe Chant folder until I get around to it. <g>
.

[personal profile] helen_keeble 2019-12-04 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
It’s also interesting when there’s a Big Premise that can support multiple leanings (as it were), and the author pics a particular direction. I’m specifically thinking of Neil Stephenson’s Seveneves, which I simultaneously enjoyed and was frustrated by, because I wanted to hear all about the interpersonal issues caused by being the Last Few Humans Crammed Into Tiny Adhoc Spaceships, and Stephenson was far more interested in telling me about orbital dynamics. Which, also an important part of surviving in space! ...just not the one I was most interested in.
rachelmanija: (Default)

[personal profile] rachelmanija 2019-12-04 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I love circuses and expected to love The Night Circus, but I DNF'd it because I was so bored. It did engage with its premise! But as you say, the characters were flat and the plot was thin, and the prose, setting, my inherent interest in the setting, and its genuine engagement with the premise were not enough to overcome my utter lack of caring.
rachelmanija: (Books: old)

[personal profile] rachelmanija 2019-12-04 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
It's so fun when the author is also interested in what you're interested in. Every time Adrian Tchaikovsky starts describing new kinden or exploring the cultural implications of shapeshifting I go all *chinhands*.
ginger_rude: (Default)

[personal profile] ginger_rude 2019-12-04 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, me neither. I think there are probably fewer people who finished the thing than went all the way through.
philomytha: airplane flying over romantic castle (Default)

[personal profile] philomytha 2019-12-04 09:51 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a really good point and is making me think about what I can do with the setting of my embryonic novel.

One series that really leans in like this is the Rivers of London books which leave you feeling like you’ve been on a highly specialised tour of the city.... Also, for all its faults, Pern really goes all-in with telepathic teleporting dragons, which I think is one of the reasons it’s so popular.
scioscribe: (Default)

[personal profile] scioscribe 2019-12-04 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I was just reading through this post and Rachel's on the same topic, and seriously, this advice has become crucial for me.

I wonder if sometimes authors fail to do this because they think it will result in a rote story? Like, hypothetically, you could have started to make Wiseguy and then decided "people already know what undercover stories are like, so let's just dig into, idk, Vinnie's Italian-American heritage and throw in some financial fraud." But I really feel like there's a key difference between playing out the tropes exactly as your audience could imagine them and letting them point the way for your story to have its own unique life and way of satisfying expectations.

Avoiding it winds up feeling so cheap. Thwarting expectations, in the long run, is certainly as predictable as fully giving into them.
winter_elf: (naptime)

[personal profile] winter_elf 2019-12-04 10:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Yea.. I agree.

I read of lot of cozy mysteries + animals (mostly cats) as my go to. And it's popular, so lots of choices.

However, recently I got one that was inherited bookstore + cat and the person who inherited was pretty... hateful? mouthy? I don't know, but about 3/4 of the way through I gave up and just skimmed to the end. I didn't like how the cat was referred to - if the cat and the bookstore was your "premise" (and there are several in the series with the cat a big part of it) maybe it gets better... but this main character was very negative/against the cat, and I just couldn't read it any more.
recessional: a photo image of feet in sparkly red shoes (Default)

[personal profile] recessional 2019-12-05 01:18 am (UTC)(link)
I know I've ranted about it before, largely from spending A LOT OF YEARS working as a barista and just no. Okay?

Know how many romances were ever started via coffee shop in the ten years I worked as a barista in multiple different shops? ZERO.

Know how many times somebody flirting either behind the counter or as a patron was ABSOLUTELY AGONIZINGLY A PROBLEM?

A lot.

/grump
rachelmanija: (Default)

[personal profile] rachelmanija 2019-12-05 01:41 am (UTC)(link)
Wiseguy really made me think about this because it was so satisfying to see a story about an undercover cop that really digs into the undercover aspect, and I realized how accustomed I'd gotten to stories that don't deal with what they're ostensibly about.
rachelmanija: (Default)

[personal profile] rachelmanija 2019-12-05 01:43 am (UTC)(link)
Oh my god, how frustrating. If I read a book about someone who inherits a cat and a bookstore, THEY MUST LIKE THE CAT.

They can be annoyed by the cat at times! It may take them time to warm up to the cat! But they cannot hate the cat.
marycatelli: (Default)

[personal profile] marycatelli 2019-12-05 02:03 am (UTC)(link)
hmmmm. . . .

Thinking deep philosophical thoughts.

My own A Diabolical Bargain takes place (mostly) at a wizards' college, and there's a fair amount of college life stuff in it, including the magical.
marycatelli: (Default)

[personal profile] marycatelli 2019-12-05 02:04 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah. Some consideration has to be given to the target audience's capacity to handle symbolism and metaphor.
marycatelli: (Default)

[personal profile] marycatelli 2019-12-05 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
I was thinking about circuses, and about Kurt Busiek's Astro City -- Local Heroes has a story in which a circus appears, but the circus is not really central, even if the hero's name is Roustabout.

But then I remembered -- Agatha Heterodyne! She has a circus interlude in -- ta-da! -- Circus of Dreams. More detail in the book version than the comic one.
kore: (Default)

[personal profile] kore 2019-12-05 05:33 am (UTC)(link)
Oh god, I have never been able to finish that. Never.

Another example I remember from grad school is Far From the Madding Crowd. You learn all about sheep-shearing! I had actual dreams about sheep-shearing while I was forcing myself through it. And the characterization and scenery were neat! But so much sheep-shearing.
ginger_rude: (Default)

[personal profile] ginger_rude 2019-12-05 09:14 am (UTC)(link)
ahaha. I guess at least it sounds...soothing? Maybe not.
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)

[personal profile] silveradept 2019-12-13 03:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Very much so with Pern, although I find that certain details that haven't aged well about the culture (and implications of that culture) kick me right back out of the narrative. I am biased in this regard, in that I'm re-reading and commenting on all the ways that Pern hasn't aged well, so I'm predisposed to find those spots. Someone who is there for the dragons and doesn't particularly care about the world around the dragons will be entirely satisfied with the series.

Page 3 of 3