sholio: sun on winter trees (Death Gate Dragon)
Sholio ([personal profile] sholio) wrote2008-03-05 10:10 pm
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Furies of Calderon

I finished Jim Butcher's Furies of Calderon and ... feel like griping about it.

Because, seriously, Butcher, you can do better than this! By the final third of the book, I'd gotten to the point where I was just skimming -- still kinda holding out hope that things might take a turn for the better, but ... not really engaged with it at all.

It was just so generic -- basically one of those EveryFantasy books, taking place in the standard pseudo-medieval-Europe (only, as usual, missing most of the things that make the real medieval Europe dramatically interesting, like disease and economic oppression and horrendous racial/religious injustice). The really frustrating thing is that it could have been much better -- the magic system, with its Shinto-ish idea of spirits living in mountains and rivers, is really neat and unusual, and obviously he'd put quite a bit of time into developing the world, but what came out was sort of a cookie-cutter sanitized pseudo-Europe with a cookie-cutter plot centering around your basic cookie-cutter good-hearted farmboy. And then the plot turned out to be a sprawling mess with way too little organization and too many characters. (And I speak as someone who loves complicated plots! But this was just ... too many characters to really care about anybody, too many scene-switches to get into one set of events before we'd jump to another one.)

But the worst part was the racial/sexual stuff -- and, again, I know he can do better; there are occasional things that bug me along those lines in the Dresden Files books (like his tendency to keep reminding us over and over of the characters' ethnicity if they're not white), but never anywhere near like this. I just don't know where to begin with what a fundamentally bad idea the Marat were, in pretty much every way, and the awfulness of the casual way that words like "savage" and "horde" and "cannibal" were tossed around in the book -- especially when so many aspects of Marat culture were rather blatantly patterned on Native American and African cultures. The final twist of the knife was that little bit of Aleran history that we got near the end, that the Alerans had come here from elsewhere and basically driven out or subdued all the indigenous cultures, which basically just hammers home the (accidental?) Alerans=Europeans metaphor and makes the portrayal of the Marat as savage invaders (or, at the end, naive innocents confused by the trappings of "modern" Aleran culture) even more disturbing.

On the gender side -- like I've mentioned before, I'm not especially sensitive to gender issues in general, and especially in fantasy or historical fiction, I'm very tolerant of women's social roles, status in society, and the language used by the other characters to describe them being very different from what would be acceptable in the modern world. Having said that, the slave-collar/rape scene sent my ick-o-meter right off the scale, especially combined a few other, little ick-inducing things, like the way that sadistic Odiana was always referred to as a "water witch" (in the narrative as well as by the other characters) while good-guy Isana, with the exact same powers, was always called a watercrafter. I'm not saying "Jim Butcher is a raging mysogynist!" because, well, he obviously isn't; he's always had good, well-rounded female characters in all of his books, including this one. Which makes it all the more bizarre that the book would suddenly come out of nowhere with a very squick-inducing scene of forced servitude and rape. It's not that you can't ever deal with those topics in a book, of course -- it's just, there are some treatments of that sort of scene that really emphasize how awful it would be for the victim, and some that sort of give you the idea the author's playing out a fantasy. This was ... more the latter, unfortunately.

On the surface, Isana getting to become a steadholder at the end seems to be a "yay, girl power!" moment -- but, uh, actually it's not, because I was just totally weirded out by how little resistance there was to the idea. The first female steadholder ever? And it's so casual, and nobody objects? See, I could totally see her assuming the role informally, with Bernard remaining the titular head of household while Isana takes on most of the actual power and duties, but ... formally codifying it like that just felt wrong -- it felt wrong for their society as it had been presented up to that point, it felt totally wrong for the way that rural people act and the way that gender prejudice and established gender roles work in a medieval-ish society. It's just one step removed from the king waving a hand and declaring "There shall be no gender prejudice throughout my land!" and lo, because he said it was so, then it shall be so ... and I know that's a really silly example, but that's exactly how it felt in the book.

... okay. Enough griping. At this point, I think I'd have to be really hard-up for reading material to even think about buying another book in the series. It's a good thing that I read the Dresden Files books first, because this wouldn't have left me with a particularly good opinion of Butcher as a writer. (But the new Dresden book comes out on April 1! I shall console myself with that.)

EDIT: Oh, hey, I forgot to mention another thing that drove me crazy about the book, and that's the way that (apparently) major events would happen and then have no consequences for the plot or characters. For example, Bernard coming back from the dead! I was expecting major fallout from that, like he ends up undead or something, especially since they'd made a big deal about what a terrible risk it was -- but Isana sleeps for awhile, and everyone's fine and it's never mentioned again. Or everything that happened with Isana and Odiana, and everything we found out about Odiana's past -- at the end of it, she goes back to Aldrick and, after acting like a halfway normal human being while she was with Isana, as soon as she gets back with her old circle of friends she's back to being a giggly sadist ... everything that happened with the slave collar and the connection she appeared to be forming to Isana is just thrown out the window; it didn't change her at all. AAAAAARGH.
ext_13204: (Default)

[identity profile] nonniemous.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
Meh. All the reasons I avoid standard fantasy. I was afraid of these books when I saw them, and I'm glad, now. Someone take this world away from him and make him write more Dresden Files.
ext_1981: (Avatar-Zuko fighting Azula)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 08:17 am (UTC)(link)
I know! After slogging through that, I'm kind of depressed that he's written three more of these when he could have been working on the further adventures of Harry & Murphy & co.

[identity profile] lavvyan.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 08:43 am (UTC)(link)
Shinto-ish idea of spirits living in mountains and rivers

But! There were loads of spirits living in mountains and rivers in old European tales! I've got a book with stories just from medieval (sp?) Germany, which you could easily use to bash someone's head in. ;)
ext_1981: (Scrubs-Carla)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 08:50 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm ... excellent point. Maybe it's just that the way it's executed in the book feels more Eastern than Western to me, because my brain immediately went to Japanese folktales when I was reading the book. I think most cultures have stories of nature spirits and/or nonhuman people who occupy various places or objects, but aside from Greek dryads and such, that particular aspect of European folk culture doesn't make it into mainstream fantasy very much.

[identity profile] lavvyan.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:01 am (UTC)(link)
It's strange, isn't it? If I wanted to tell the stories of my region alone, I'd need two hours at least. There are ghosts and spirits everywhere.
ext_1981: (Scrubs-Carla)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:13 am (UTC)(link)
One of the things that frustrates me about most fantasy is that there is such a tremendous wealth of folk tales, monsters, and magic in the world to draw upon, and most writers stick to a handful of Tolkein-inspired tropes. So sad!

(At least this book didn't have elves, come to think of it. There's always that.)

[identity profile] madripoor-rose.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Nods. I gave the fantasy series a try and couldn't make it beyond the first chapter. I liked the Dresden Files TV series a lot better than the books, too. Butcher wrote a Spider-man tie-in, The Darkest Hours, that I really liked though.

It's a pity that more authors don't seem to realize the cliches of their genres and do something about them. I was thinking about our Atlantis discussion the other day, while rereading the three books Rosemary Edghill completed in the Twelve Treasures series. (Sword of Maiden's Tears, Cup Of Morning Shadows, Cloak Of Night And Daggers.) Phillip going off to Faeryland to overthrow the elves because humans are little better than slaves there.
ext_3572: (Default)

[identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] naye read some/all of these and was suitable unimpressed, such that I had little interest in trying them myself (...not that I had much interest anyway, epic fantasy's rarely my thing unless everyone around me is reading it, and besides when I finally drag myself away from the unending font that is SGA fanfic I've got Locke Lamora waiting for me!)

The talk of fantasy and 'girl power' though, makes me wonder - have you watched Juuni Kokki/12 Kingdoms? I was into it a couple years ago and can't recall if you were along for the ride or not. Even if you're not in an anime mood at the moment, it's worth trying, because it doesn't feel much like anime, and does feel a lot like amazing epic fantasy (fittingly, as it's based on a series of Japanese novels, which I believe are being translated now - need to check on that.) Among other things the female chars, especially the main heroine, are simply amazing. Yoko starts out as this pretty weak, unlikeable character, who evolves into this incredible figure (superficially, 12K is the 'schoolgirl is transported to fantasy world where she's destined to be queen!' except it's that trope done with believable human beings, and an intensely real and *different* world, and it's just. Yeah.) Really, really worth checking out. Rats, now I wanna watch it again!

[identity profile] leenys.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 01:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I tell you, working in a bookstore and the scifi/fan section being one of the areas I'm responsible for stocking...it's all the same thing. There is an original idea that pops out on occasion, then it's consumed by authors that want to jump on the band wagon. Case in point...look at all the demon-fighter books that are out now. Most of those have been published within the last year, one after another, bangbangbang! Rob Thurman has a more unique track, but I can't help thinking "Supernatural" when I read those books (though time wise this is a mere coincidence and not a copy-issue, especially as SPN started out more as an urban-myth type show, which they've strayed a bit from). I have to wonder if Mercedes Lackey has any more originality in her work, I haven't even bothered to check because the covers all look the same. And that's another thing, the covers either have the standard art work, or it's dark with people dressed in leather. Two genres.

Course then you have David Weber, which shows more promise for some originality. The classics like Asimov and Clarke still stand. And there is an Oroti (sp)series that looks compelling. But mostly? I've gone over to non-fiction.

Tried getting into the Dresden Files books, and I think if I read those without seeing the series I'd of had better luck. Because I didn't like Dresden in the show, and I think that was mainly due to the actor. I liked Bob, but he's not "semi material" in the book, only a voice, so no use for it. This is the one case where the show ruined the books for me. Feel free to convince me otherwise because there's a big promo on them right now and I keep staring. And the new series? Haven't bothered with it, seeing as how I can't get into Dresden, and now I'm even more leery.

[identity profile] parisindy.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 01:40 pm (UTC)(link)
i can't say i'm like the fantasy one as well

i love the dresden files though

[identity profile] susnn.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 03:10 pm (UTC)(link)
You nailed my biggest problem with the books. No sooner did Tavi come on the scene than I knew where the series was headed. Not that, in itself, that's enough to toss a series or book into the nyet pile. Sometimes it can be very interesting to see what a good writer can do with the old tropes. The Calderon series does have some good scenes and decent characters, although I think the bad guys are more interesting in many cases. What I did like about the Marats is that they came across as amused by the attitudes of the Alerans; they certainly, at least as I read them, did not exhibit any sense of inferiority to the Alerans. Yes, there were aspects of Aleran culture that they did not get, but I got the feeling that for the Marats the same was true of the Alerans about the Marat culture. I have the latest book but I've had it for three weeks, and even had it when I was spending nights at the hospital with my mother, and still haven't cracked the cover. So, not a must read series for me. Then again, I never finished off the Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz either, and when it first came out I always got the books as soon as they were published.

Hmmm.... you know, I begin to wonder now if the reason I stuck with the Deryni series as long as I did was because my sisters and friends were all agog about them and there was much rejoicing and discussing each time one appeared. Makes me wonder about how much fandom props up otherwise eh series.

[identity profile] melibabe.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I read this a few months ago and also found it difficult to finish (with some skimming ahead as well). I started the next book but quit about a quarter (?) of the way through. I agree that it definitely felt very cliche and formula in most places, which was very disappointing to me.

I recently started Dan Simmons' Hyperion novels, and have the same sense of "there's a good story somewhere in here, but the structure and pacing are making it really hard for me to care." Some of it (particularly the "detective's story" chunk) actually made my teeth ache, it was so very very boilerplate. I can't figure out how these won so many awards....

[identity profile] melibabe.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 06:05 pm (UTC)(link)
The first few books are good but definitely feel like early works. As the series progressed, however, he started bringing more depth into them, to the point where they were actually very good. Perhaps start with a later one, then work back if you like it?
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (atlantis - say what?)

[personal profile] naye 2008-03-06 06:37 pm (UTC)(link)
*laughs*

Oh, man. I'm not laughing at your miserable reading experience, really, I'm not, but - you sound exactly like I did when I finished it!! Or like I wanted to sound, since you're way more eloquent here than I was.

I'm sorry you didn't like it. I wanted to, but - gahhhhhh. I even read the second book! Which I really, really wanted to like, and I even tried to make a list of everything I liked about it, and... it's a rather forced list. With some major points that get canceled out in one of the sequels. (Spoiler! I've heard that OF COURSE Tavi has the most kick-ass furies EVER once he finally manifests them. Oh, and he's also-- Um. I probably shouldn't spoil TOO much, but lemme know if you want to know?).

My reactions to the Codex Alera: book 1, book 2 (there are a couple of spoilers there, but it's a pretty brief summary of what I liked/disliked rather than a thorough review/rant).

I'm like you, I'm just so disappointed! Come on Butcher, you can do SO MUCH better! Your storytelling shouldn't lose its mojo just because you switch from a 1st person POV to a 3rd! Really! You could make high fantasy as interesting as you've made urban fantasy, you know how. Agh. I wouldn't have given a rat's tail if Generic Fantasy Writer #9716 churned out this kind of crap, but with Butcher... it really gets to me!! Though it does make me feel better to hear that very obviously it's not just me. If you're seeing them too, the issues I noticed were really there - the boringness, and the issues...! Uuugh. Yes, the slave-collar scene and Odiana's history... *shudder* Ick. And the Marat. Ick, ick, ick. >_<

The Marat have become total Magical Ninja guys by book two. They have even MORE pseudo-Native American spiritualism, as well as l33t ninja skillz. And I think - hope? - that it is because there's a point to be made somewhere about how the Alerans are actually the bad guys in the big picture, conquering other people and taking over a continent that wasn't theirs, but. But it's done in a way that will throw me into fits of rage if I think about it, so I won't. I really won't. I'll stop... now.

*breathes*

Okay. Better now. A little better.

One thing in Butcher's favor is that the second book is pretty much all about the political ramifications of making Isana the first female Steadholder! So... yeah, I don't know if it was planned that way from the beginning, but apparently it's just such a huge subject that he couldn't deal with in the first book.

Um. Yeah. I-I don't think I should've read the second book, but I'd already bought it, and now I get all frustrated and annoyed when I think about them, and there are another two books out there, and I keep hoping that maybe those will be good, but - finishing the first two were such a chore (in each case - I ended up skimming the last third of BOTH of them), I really don't think I'll give them a chance. Ever. Which makes me sad, because - it's Jim Butcher!

...thank you for giving me a chance to vent a little. ^^;;;
naye: three dots above renji and ichigo from bleach (...)

[personal profile] naye 2008-03-06 06:40 pm (UTC)(link)
No - this book just ripped off the Roman empire. There was very little at all that felt original to me in the world-building, outside of the idea of furies, and... I don't know if I should include the Marat or not, because they just tick me off. ^^;;

Sorry for ranting all over your comments. ...Small Favor in three weeks, yay! *distracts self with shiny*
ext_1981: (Avatar-Zuko fighting Azula)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:35 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL! I knew there was someone on my friends list who was reading those books, but I'd been avoiding posts discussing them because I didn't want to be spoiled. Not worried about being spoiled anymore, because I really don't care, and your spoiler makes me go AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHHH because I was afraid something like that was going to happen ...!

It's really nice to know it's not just me, either. I always wonder, on these sorts of things, if I'm being hypersensitive or something, and it's a relief that it does seem like it's the books and not me. Or ... at least I'm not the only one!

I wouldn't have given a rat's tail if Generic Fantasy Writer #9716 churned out this kind of crap, but with Butcher... it really gets to me!!

Yeah, precisely! I mean, I *know* that fantasy novels of this type are a dime a dozen (which obviously means that people must be reading them, I suppose) and that's why I'm really picky about the fantasy I read. It's not very pleasant to expect something better and then end up with this sort of tripe. And I think I'd be a lot more willing to forgive its generic-ness if it wasn't so ... well ... offensive in other areas. It's just intensely frustrating to pick up a fresh new fantasy novel in 2008 and encounter hordes of invading cannibals, know what I mean? I mean, you'd think we'd be getting past that sort of thing, but obviously not, and it's especially frustrating coming from a writer that I like!

And I think - hope? - that it is because there's a point to be made somewhere about how the Alerans are actually the bad guys in the big picture, conquering other people and taking over a continent that wasn't theirs, but. But it's done in a way that will throw me into fits of rage if I think about it...

Yeah, me too! I did actually wonder, towards the end of the book, if he was trying to make some kind of point about how the Marat aren't really such unwashed primitives as the Alerans see them, and how the Alerans were in the wrong for coming and taking their land away ... but if he's trying to do that, he's making a terrible mess of it!

I do appreciate that he *tries* to deal with some of this stuff, and I'm happy that Isana's promotion to steadholder gets dealt with ... but, man, I just don't have any desire to read any further, especially after reading your post on the second book ...!
ext_1981: (Team-4 of a kind)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:40 pm (UTC)(link)
The Marat are just SAD ...! They're clear out the other side of "clueless" and straight to "What the hell were you thinking ...?" with a side order of "Butcher, don't DO this to me!"
ext_1981: (Avatar-Zuko fighting Azula)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually really like the Dresden Files books, better than the show, but maybe that's just because I read them first.

It frustrates me that authors so often don't seem to be able to write beyond the limits of their genre -- and it frustrates me further that obviously, these books *sell*, so publishers are just going to keep churning out the same hackneyed "farmboy saves world" plots.
ext_1981: (NCIS-team)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't seen it, no, but I'll look for it the next time I need something new to watch (though, right now, my plate is full-up with new goodies -- once we're done with NCIS, there's Numb3rs and a few more things waiting for me).

Unfortunately, I DO like epic fantasy -- in fact, I love it -- but 95% of the time I hate the way it's done! So I'm left sadly moping around trying to hunt down fantasy that doesn't suck.
ext_1981: (Avatar-Zuko fighting Azula)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I second the suggestion to start with a later book, see if you like it and, if so, go back and start at the beginning. Book 3 was where I started and I really liked it -- it's fast-paced with lots of h/c.

Isn't David Weber the one who does the Honor Harrington books? Does he also do fantasy? Or am I thinking of something else.

Urban fantasy does seem to be the big thing right now, spinning off the success of Buffy and SPN. I've read a few that were really fun, but it seems like the more of it there is, the more it falls into a handful of Ann Rice or Buffy-inspired cliches.
ext_1981: (SGA-Game-John-look)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually really loved the Hyperion novels, but I also read them when I was 14 and much less sensitive to dramatic nuance. The only one of Simmons' novels I tried to read as an adult (Hollow Man) was so awful I could barely finish it.
ext_1981: (ROUS)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Everything about Tavi's storyline is so dreadfully cliche. I find him completely uninteresting ... I liked some of the background characters, though, and was basically sticking around for them, more than him.

The Marat ... well ... best not to go there. I hated the way they were presented and the way the Alerans treated them.

I think there is definitely an effect to fandom that makes you stick with mediocre canon in order to share it with other people. And there have been some things I think I *could* have been really fannish about but there just wasn't enough of a fandom to support them (like "Dead Like Me").
ext_1981: (Avatar-Zuko fighting Azula)

[identity profile] friendshipper.livejournal.com 2008-03-06 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I wish he'd write more Dresden novels and leave the fantasy alone...
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (atlantis - ronon)

[personal profile] naye 2008-03-06 10:15 pm (UTC)(link)
He adds a race of Warewolf-savages in the next volume...? Err. They're even more not human and more vicious than the Marat! Who really just want to live in peace with The One, except when they're busy killing each other off and feasting on human flesh.

...ow. My head is wanting to explode now.
naye: three dots above renji and ichigo from bleach (...)

Righteous annoyance is making me exceed character limits!

[personal profile] naye 2008-03-06 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
This is why I was curious about what you thought of the book! Because another of my friends told me they loved them, and ever since, I've been wondering if maybe I just wasn't reading it right, or something. But now I know! It's not just me, and the issues truly are skeezy.

your spoiler makes me go AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHHH because I was afraid something like that was going to happen ...!

I KNOW! It's so damn annoying! It could have been really interesting if the whole concept of the series was that Tavi is the one person in Alera who doesn't have magical powers, because I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that. But then he turns out to be just another Garion. (No offense to Eddings. I loved the Belgarion with all my heart - but that's when I was twelve. And he was Generic Fantasy Writer #31, or something. Some of his clichés might not even have been clichés yet!)

More spoiler, just in case you want to get even more annoyed: in case you hadn't guessed it, Tavi is the grandson of the ruling Prime. OBVIOUSLY. Son of that prince-guy who died tragically fighting the Marat in Calderon. What a shocker, huh? I bet you can NEVER guess who his mother is! Unless I'm misremembering - like I said, I only skimmed a fair bit of the book.

It's not very pleasant to expect something better and then end up with this sort of tripe. And I think I'd be a lot more willing to forgive its generic-ness if it wasn't so ... well ... offensive in other areas.

I totally agree. The colonial/racial/misogynist issues in just the first book were enough to make me queasy. Then they don't get any better in the second book. GAHHHHHHH. Or - we get Marat observing Aleran life, and being totally shocked by the concept of "lying", and the poverty and misery they see in the city, and... It's so "noble savage" that it really becomes impossible to see it as anything other than that. Maybe there is a point to all of it, maybe there is a huge twist coming in some future volume, but at this point...? At this point the only two female characters who weren't in any way attached to a male (I'm counting Isana as "attached" because of her backstory) were killed off - and one was a whore (and Cursor, killed when Bad Guys went after Isana), while the other was one of Tavi's best friends, but she turned out to have been replaced by someone impersonating her, and when they find out she's been dead for months nobody really seems to care.

This not having female characters unless they're somehow dependent on (though others might not see it as "dependent") male characters is something that ticked me off so bad with Raymond E Feist that I still haven't forgiven him, and I think I was sixteen when I stopped reading his books!

It's just intensely frustrating to pick up a fresh new fantasy novel in 2008 and encounter hordes of invading cannibals, know what I mean? I mean, you'd think we'd be getting past that sort of thing, but obviously not, and it's especially frustrating coming from a writer that I like!

Exactly! That's exactly it. Even if the "twist" is that the invading cannibals aren't really all that bad, once you get to know them...

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