sholio | I need a life, part 495,746

I need a life, part 495,746

Pertaining to the previous SPN post, a couple of links to interesting discussions on race and gender issues in SPN:

Letter to Eric Kripke
On fannish objections to race/gender discussions of SPN

What I should be doing at the moment is working on my graphic novel script, which is soundly kicking my ass today. Obviously, I'm having some trouble maintaining proper focus. Also, I just realized it's already the 23rd and I still owe

stargateficrec two recs each in the Sheppard and Sheppard/McKay friendship categories before the end of the month. Oops.

Hey, a question for everybody: When you rec stories, do you feel compelled to point out the flaws in your rec (making it more like a review, I suppose), or do you try to remain positive?

I find myself taking a different approach when I'm reccing things on my journal vs. at a public rec site like

stargateficrec or

stargategenrec. In my role as "public" reccer, I really do try to do all-positive recs -- which sometimes means finding things to rec that I really don't have any complaints about, or sometimes forcing myself to avoid mentioning the issues that I might have had with something I'm reccing. (Spelling/grammar mistakes, an ending I didn't like, etc.) I suppose that it seems unfair to bias a reader against something beforehand, when the item that bothered me might not bother them at all.

On my journal, though, I'm usually a lot more honest -- I still wouldn't rec something I didn't feel was worthy of it, obviously, but I do tend to mention things that bugged me about the story as well as things I thought were brilliant. The difference ... I guess that it's a matter of my journal being my own private space, and because it *does* make me a little uncomfortable to rec things I'm not 100% positive about without mentioning the flaws, I'd rather preserve my own comfort in my own journal. On public rec sites, I'm less concerned about my own comfort and more interested in pointing readers at a fic without predisposing them to look for the flaws in it.

As a reccer, what about you? Or is it even something you've thought about?

As a reader, do you prefer an honest, "warts and all" review, or would you rather go into a story with a more positive impression in mind? Or do you even read a rec beyond simply finding links to click on? (Which is actually the approach I take, more often than not. I'll skim the summary part of a rec to find out if the story sounds like my cup of tea, but I don't usually read beyond that because I'd rather be unspoiled.)

As a writer, do you object to having recs of your stories that aren't all-positive? Would you prefer not to be recced at all rather than have your story memorialized for all time as "Great characterization, terrible grammar"? (Me, I don't mind a bit, just for the record. Well, I might gripe in private about a review that I thought was really, truly unfair, but mostly I'm just interested to find out what people have to say about my stories.)

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I've worried about the rec question myself. I've done some recs at

stargateficrec and agonized over which stories to rec. Partly, I want to rec stories that haven't been recommended before; the rules say not to rec stories rec'd in the same category, but I do check others so that I'm not recommending, say, a hurt/comfort story recommended the month before in a character category. I also want to rec really good stories without too many flaws, because I don't want people to be disappointed--and I figure I do have some small reputation as both a recommender and a writer of recs.

I do try to stay positive, both in community recs and on my own site. If I have criticisms, I generally try to e-mail or post them to the author. In one case, I actually contacted an author and said, "I'm about to recommend your story, and I thought you might want to clean up a problem with the way your punctuation is displaying before I do that." I figure if I have constructive criticisms, I should give them directly to the author; if they're not constructive, I tend to let them slide. I don't want people to think badly of me (to think, for instance, that I didn't notice errors), but if I'm really writing a rec, it's more important to me to be positive. I've seen a few recs of the "it's a good story if you can get past the punctuation" or, worse, "good story for X, terrible characterization of Y." Some of those have bothered me (though they aren't my stories, nor by anyone I know.) If something bothers me so much it would taint my rec, I wouldn't rec the story.

Maybe that's easy for me to say because I don't rec stories regularly. I put in far too many hours the times I did recs for

stargateficrec to do that anytime soon again! (I think I made it too difficult for myself; it really is just me, and I don't want to discourage anyone else.) If anyone has recommended one of my stories with a criticism in the rec, I'm unaware of it. How I react would depend on the criticism! If someone said, "This is a good story except for the goof with the MALP," that's a fair cop (I should probably fix the goof with the MALP in that one). If someone writes, "A good story if it doesn't put you to sleep first," I'd be annoyed. :-)

I like honest recs/reviews as a reccer, reader, and writer.

Even when I posted my recs for

14valentines and was deliberately posting only recs, nothing I rated a 3 or less, I still mentioned stuff I disliked or problems a fic had, because to me that's very important. And if I were to bypass that by reccing only stuff I thought was perfect, well...I wouldn't rec very often because it's pretty rare for me to find stuff I love wholeheartedly and can't see a single flaw in.

As a reader, I do like knowing if the person is reccing it because it was really well-written, or if they're reccing it because it's their bullet-proof kink and they don't care that the writing is atrocious, so I definitely prefer reccers who qualify their recs. Recs are not for the author. They're for other readers to point them to good fic, so it really does people a disservice to make unqualified recs for fear of hurting the author's feelings. No one can trust the recs then.

As a writer, I like to know what people thought, good and bad, so I'd really prefer to know if they disliked some things than to just have it glossed over. This includes both constructive stuff and subjective stuff, because I'm curious as to what people liked and didn't.

Both as a reader and as a reccer I prefer the full disclosure approach to recs.

Thanks for the input! I do like reading your recs, and have appreciated the times you've recced me. :)

Obviously if you are rec'ing something then the story has something about it worth taking the time to go check it out. I'd say half of what I read nowadays is based on rec's from other people. I've read stories that were rec'd with a positive review but with a tiny crit on some aspect and I prefer seeing that.

I've read a few stories that got great recommendations, but when I sat down to read it, the plots, characterization were awesome or whatever the purpose for the rec, but structure wise it had grammar problems, POV issues and I think that should been mentioned.

Oh heavens, ficrec is an enormous time-sink for me! I think next month I'm probably not going to sign up for any of the categories -- I've been doing two a month for several months now, and as much fun as it is to sift through fics I liked, it's starting to wear on me a bit. Coming up with new ways to describe stories without using the same adjectives over and over ... it's like being back in English class! Like you, I think I make it too hard on myself.

The idea of emailing crit to the author before reccing their story is very interesting -- it had never occurred to me to do that.

I don't want people to think badly of me (to think, for instance, that I didn't notice errors)

Ha. I have that exact sense of unease when I post a rec, especially if I'm aware of what seem to me to be flaws -- spelling/grammar errors, an ending I didn't like, characterization that seems off to me. On the other hand, I really can't think of a time when *I've* been upset by someone giving a glowing rec to a story that I thought was full of holes -- it happens, and I just chalk it up to different tastes and move on. If I know that a particular person's recs are consistently not my thing, then I just wouldn't read their recs; there are plenty of people out there reccing things, and no shortage of different places to look. I tend to treat recs more as a reading list than as critical reviews, anyway.

Fair enough -- I think it possibly has a lot to do with how a person uses recs, because I tend to treat them as a reading list rather than critical reviews; as noted above, I rarely even read the content of a rec, aside from just enough of it to get an idea of whether or not the story would be my thing. (Probably a terrible thing to admit, but I'm the same way with books and movies -- I don't want to see the trailer or read the blurb on the back.) The important thing to me is that someone liked it enough to rec it -- otherwise, I'd rather go into it with an open mind. So I don't usually consider that other people might be looking for more information from a rec than just basic info on the story, since I don't use them that way. My one big guide to quality is usually the identity of the reccer -- if they tend to like (and rec) similar things to what I like to read, then I'll trust their recs without needing to know much else. Kind of like taking book recommendations from friends, versus a random stranger at work who rhapsodizes enthusiastic about the latest thing they read -- or warns me away from a book that they hated. None of that really tells me a whole lot about whether or not *I'd* like it.

Yeah -- something I hadn't really considered until answering one of the other comments above is that the way I rec is heavily influenced by the way that I treat recs as a reading list without paying much attention to the actual content of the rec (i.e. if I know the reccer well enough to have a general idea of their reading tastes and I know that they liked a story, that's good enough for me). So it doesn't really occur to me to think that some people would use recs to warn them away from certain dislikes (lousy grammar, etc).

Well, to me the difference with a recommendation to me from a friend is that presumably they will be reccing it to me, knowing what I like and don't like, whereas a reccer posting in their journal is not reccing directly to me.

I don't really need to know specifics, but I would like to know if someone is reccing something because they think it's a high-quality work of fiction, or because they can't get enough of X and so even badfic is good to them if it contains X.

As a further thought on this, I've actually realized (thinking about it) that I generally prefer recs without value judgments attached -- which is not a commentary on how other people rec, it's just how I prefer to sort out my own reading recommendations. I suppose there have been enough times that I've found a story recced everywhere was just not to my reading taste, that I'd rather just have the basic facts about the story (along with the rather self-evident fact that it doesn't suck, judging by it being recced at all) and then make up my own mind about it.

Which isn't to say that there's a "right" and a "wrong" way to rec, at all! I think this might even be kind of an oddball view in fandom (and goes along with my general hatred of spoilers and avoidance of them). I actually *love* reading critical reviews of my own fanfic, and receiving comments of that nature; it's delightful for me to find out not just what people liked, but also what they didn't like! But as a reader, I'm not nearly as interested in what other people thought about it, as I am in finding out what *I* think of it.

I wouldn't say be warned away, more like a head's up. Hey this is great Rodney story with a twist blah blah blah, keep in mind the POV strays from time to time but overall a great read.

That's what I'm talking about...I love recs though because they really direct me to stories I would never had found because of its linked to an LJ I never see, or an author's site I never existed, many times with writer's I've never seen before.

I won't balk at one negative aspect of the fic. For instance I tend to read most everything you rec with my favorite characters, because we have the same taste most of the time. :-P

Well, sure, but the person reccing to you is still heavily influenced by what *they* like, right? I mean, there are certain people in RL whose recommendations I don't trust any farther than I can throw them. My mom is one of those -- what she likes/thinks I'll like, and what I actually enjoy, are worlds apart. (And makes gift-giving problematic as well ... my idea of an OMG AWESOME! book or DVD is just as likely to bore, confuse or offend her, even when I'm trying my damnedest to get inside her head and figure out what she might want.)

but I would like to know if someone is reccing something because they think it's a high-quality work of fiction, or because they can't get enough of X and so even badfic is good to them if it contains X.

Yeah, that makes sense. Although you know, even there ... it's damned hard sometimes to figure out if something I think is the most awesome story since forever is actually just hitting a particular kink I didn't know I had. Most of the time, I think I'm capable of distancing myself enough to recognize that a given story is really not that well-written objectively, but is a very effective example of [x] fanfic trope that scratches a particular itch of mine -- but I'm not that self-aware all of the time, and I imagine a lot of reccers aren't either.

Yeah, I get what you're saying! Upon further reflection -- I suppose I'd assumed it would be poor reccing etiquette to mention things like that, which is another reason why I feel more comfortable to do so in my own journal (where I can be as rude as I damn well please *g*) but not in a public reccing journal. The thought had never really occurred to me to view it as a service to readers to warn about flaws in the work.

(The one exception being content warnings of a "contains blah blah, may offend" nature. For example, character death warnings, or mentioning non-gen content in stuff I rec at genrec. I do always try to do that.)

[via friendsfriends]

When I rec, I am aware that I'm asking people to trust my judgment on these stories. Therefore, if I have caveats, I give them, because I don't want them to think, e.g., "this story had a lot of comma splices, therefore, Isis doesn't notice comma splices."

When I read from recs (rarely) there are certain things I want to know, and certain things I don't care about. If a rec tells me that the characterization is brilliant but the plot is stupid, well, I read for plot, so I'll know to give the story a pass. Conversely, if a rec tells me that the plot is brilliant but the characterization dubious, I am more likely to read - and more likely to respect the author of the rec when I think, "damn, that characterization sucked," or possibly, more likely to think, "huh, I can see why X didn't like the characterization, because I know she refuses to believe that Rodney's anything other than a giant woobie, but I certainly liked this."

When my story is recced, I am happy just to have it recced, and I am always interested in knowing what weaknesses other people see, so I can shore them up for the next story. Although I admit that I was boggled at one rec which complained (nonspecifically) about the grammar in one of my stories, because that's one area in which I generally don't have problems!

Hi there, and thanks for stopping by!

One of the reasons why I love discussions of this nature is because it makes me examine my own assumptions and discover interesting things that hadn't occurred to me before -- in this case, it's just how much the way a person uses recs influences the sort of recs they give. In my case, I tend to take them as a reading list without giving much consideration to their content, so I hadn't really thought that a lot of people do appreciate a more balanced and analytical rec.

I really do love having the weaknesses in my own stories pointed out (however will I learn otherwise?) and I'm not shy about making similar comments on TV and movies and published books ... but I do tend to shy away when it comes to fic, except to perhaps skirt around an issue with the story in fairly general terms. Which is something that I might ought to work on a bit; thanks!

One of the reasons I got an LJ is I wanted to discuss fics in a critical manner with other fans. I quickly discovered that I just can't. In order to have someone to talk about fic with, I have to build relationships; and once I've friended someone, or had any sort of interaction with them, I can't make myself be anything except positive.

I've even thought of sockpuppeting; but don't think I'd do it well.

That's a very interesting thing to consider. I recc'd a story where the author shifts POVs throughout the story without warning, and I'd debated on whether to warn the readers about it or not (I didn't).

Personally, I like to know as much as I can about a story before reading, which is why I get frustrated with people who turn their noses up at putting in warnings, or don't feel the need to change genres if the story starts out as gen but ends up being slash or het. As a reader, I wouldn't mind knowing if the author is a fan of character A, and his/her story casts character B in a rather negative light (Ex. "the characterization of character B felt a little off for me" type of thing.) As a writer, I'm always trying to improve, so wouldn't mind knowing the issues readers had with my work.

On the other hand, the issues a reader may have could just be a matter of opinion, including with spelling and grammer errors (Ex. The reccer warns against spelling errors when there may be only one to two spelling mistakes. A bit of an exaggerated example, I know, but I can see some people going overboard with their warnings.)

Personally, when I rec a story, I usually don't have any issues with it beyond minor personal ones that are easy to ignore (Ex. I'm not a fan of an emotionally-shattered Sheppard being healed by McKay yelling at him, but for some - depending on the story - the method works.) If the issues are too big for me to ignore, even if they are personal, or the grammer, spelling, and writing method make the story difficult to read, then - even if the story was still fairly decent - I won't rec it. So, except for the one story mentioned above, I usually don't think about pointing problems out.

I have thought about doing private recs and critiques on my own journal so I can discuss the pros and cons in-depth. I've also been thinking about submitting stories to the SGA discussion community, as I would like to recieve in-depth critiques of my own stuff.

Ha, yeah, I hear you on this. It sort of depends on the situation, because I find it quite easy to engage in a thoughtful, private debate over a story I'm beta-ing, or one where I'm helping the author work out their plot. (I like that kind of thing, and I like having friends I can do that with!) But once it's posted, and public -- I *want* to have thoughtful and critical discussions of fanfic, the same way we do of the show itself, but it is hard to overcome the part of me that doesn't want anyone to feel bad about their work.

(Have you seen

sga_talk, by the way? It's basically *for* that, and avoids the wank potential by having authors nominate their own work for discussion.)

I generally don't read the comments that go along with recs, I'll just read the story. So, I guess that means I use it as a way to find links. That being said, when it comes to my stories, I personally don't like reading criticism in a reccing forum. I appreciate if someone writes to me in an email to comment on my fic, or if the story is being reviewed or discussed in a forum intended for that, but a bad crit in a public rec can feel a bit like a punch to the gut. If it's about grammar or punctuation, I don't care. I know I slip up, even though I have a beta, everyone does. It's rare not to see at least one typo in a fic (I usually have at least one a chapter). But, if someone comments on my style or my characterization or my plot--no matter how glowing the rest of the rec is, that feels harsh.

However, in a personal journal? You can write what you please, because, as you said, it's your own personal thoughts. Of course, the author may never speak to you again...LOL!

Unfortunately, I think most fic writers have thin skins. I know I do. Those who are more out there with their work, who are published writers or artists who know the sting of rejection, I think they appreciate a good crit. So, in a public forum, they can handle it. But for me, I only appreciate a good crit if it comes in an email from someone I respect, or someone I like. Anyone else, I'll get defensive. And then question everything about the story. I've taken stories down because of one bad crit. Like I said -- thin skin.

This isn't a very comprehensive comment. Sorry about that. Anyway, just my two cents.

Personally I think the

sga_talk comm is a great idea, and would love to see more people get involved with it!

Regarding recs ... there really haven't been *that* many times I've been tempted to bring up issues with a story in a review, but I can think of a few. I'm still not sure if I made the right decision or not. Since I personally prefer less information rather than more, it's not been until this discussion that I've really given thought to whether I'm doing my readers a disservice by not giving more balanced recs.

On the other hand, issues like the ones you mentioned are the sort of thing that wouldn't be mentioned in a rec or a story's warnings, generally (though, I'd *love* an OOC warning sometimes!) -- in those cases, the only thing that really helps is to know if the author and/or reccers' opinions on the characters are similar to yours.

"Anyone else, I'll get defensive. And then question everything about the story. I've taken stories down because of one bad crit. Like I said -- thin skin."

That's why I tend to be torn about in-depth critiques. I want them, I do, then I recieve them and either go on the defensive or suddenly think my work is crap. A lot of times, though, it's because of the way the critique is handle - pointing out more bad than good, and offering no suggestions for making things better. I once had a critique where the person chastized me for not doing more with a particular character. I apologized, thought they had a point, then later learned from another writer that this person is never satisfied with the way writers handle her favorite character. She wasn't critiquing my work, she was trying to steer me in the direction "she" wanted me to go.

I think the best critiques, IMO, are one-on-one - with betas, over e-mails, etc - so that the issues can be talked out and, therefore, worked out. The best writing class I took was a one-on-one seminar with a published author, and it was very insightful and a heck of a lot less daunting than having a group critique my work.

I find a lot of fic through recs; via friends or LJ posts, etc. Most are short recs, with one or two sentences and I go check it out. I'm not much for reading indepth reviews (akin to vivisections in some cases) as those reviews tend to give away too much plot. However, warnings are okay. I don't want to be halfway through a story to discover it's slash when I dont' read that genre. Also, if a reviewer does find fault, provide constructive critcism, not catty remarks ("this person couldn't write their way out of a paperbag", that kind of stuff).

But, although I rarely rec as I never find time, I do appreciate those that do. Points me toward fiction I can read:)

I try to leave positive recs because if I do caveats for one story I feel like I have to do it for all stories. (I rarely use caveats and my last example funnily enough happened today. I'd read a story but I could not actually read the story at the author's LJ due to formatting issues with the font colors and etc..so I added that to my rec) Also I feel if I'm going to say a story has issues and take the time to point them out I feel like I should also have time to volunteer to beta read for the author's next story, otherwise I keep my mouth shut. I know this is probably weird and not at all how most people think but I think at one point in the past I sent an email to an author saying I liked the story but...and ended up beta reading the next story as a result.

So my recs I keep it short and simple and most people who actually use my recs on a regular basis probably know what my comments really means about a story.

As a writer, I don't mind people reccing my fics with caveats.

I'm torn. When it comes to reading recs, I don't mind a little crit thrown in with the positive - knowing what I'm getting into will often keep me reading a story (such as a rec that warns, 'story has grammar problems but amazing plot/characterization' - I'd probably give said story a better chance than I would have if the rec'er hadn't mentioned those problems.) And I take recs with a grain of salt anyway: if I don't know the rec'er well, "wildly OOC" doesn't mean much, as I don't know what the rec'er considers in or out of character; while as if I do know the rec'er I either know their OOC isn't mine, or I trust their judgment enough to read a fic they liked well enough to rec, even with reservations.

When it comes to writing recs...I rarely rec'ed before, because I'm always nervous about leaving people out or slighting my friends, and have strange concerns about being judged for my own tastes. Lately I've gotten a delicious account and have been filling that up with recs, which occasionally include caveats. And I'd likely do the same on a public forum, but I'm uneasy about it -

tipper_green mentioned above that many fan writers have thin skins, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, or worse make them pull their stories from the 'net - while I theoretically believe in the, hmm, 'right' to criticize any art that's put out for public consumption, at the same time not all fanfic'ers are in this game to 'improve their craft' or whatever, and I respect that.

And then, when it comes to people rec'ing my own stuff, I don't care why someone links it or what they say about it, just that they do. No such thing as bad publicity - I'd be fine with someone linking one of my stories saying, 'this is the worst characterization I have ever read, I just wanted to share with you how atrocious it is,' because hey, people would probably come read it anyway! If anything, a review with caveats makes me all the warm & fuzzier - I know my stories aren't perfect (whose are?) but if someone didn't like the ending or whatever, but still enjoyed the story enough to tell other people it's worth reading - that's just awesome.

To be honest though as I said before if you're rec'ing a fic, it means it was good, I doubt there would be much would have an issue with.

This is a big assumption on my part, but I'd say that %99 of the rec's anyone makes the material of the story probably doesn't have enough 'negative' crit to even worth mentioning.

If I read an average 30 rec'd stories a month, I think almost 29-30 don't have anything glaring..kind makes the balanced rec kind of null and void. My example above was of an extreme, happened a few months ago....and was an on F-list LJ not a public listing.

This all falls down almsot to FB in a way, no need to 'look for crit' just give your overall take on something. In the end I think how you've been recing has been fine as I haven't come across anything that would make me think "oh why did she rec this it it had all this XYZ issues?"

I'll stand by if its worth recing, I doubt there was much to be critical to begin with.

Though I'm glad when I'm warned if something is dark or has chracter death.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Page 1 of 4

I need a life, part 495,746

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject