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I'm not sure if this quite constitutes a "rant" or not...
It's just something that's been vaguely bothering me in perusing episode reactions over the last few weeks -- well, all right, over the last few years to be honest, but it's been more noticeable lately for some reason. It has to do with objections to the way men are characterized on SGA.
Basically, it appears that at least some of the fandom object to the guys of SGA being depicted as, well, guys: divvying up alien princesses, competing to impress a girl and the like.
I hate to tell you folks, but this not only reads as perfectly normal guy behavior to me, but it is just the very tip of the iceberg -- if anything, SGA is sanitizing for television like whoa. I've had plenty of opportunity in my life to observe men of all ages in their natural habitat, i.e. sans women (or at least women they felt like censoring themselves around), and, yes, I can pretty much assure you that most of your boyfriends, husbands, brothers, and male friends really do get together amongst themselves and rate women based on breast size, compete over who has the biggest/best/most guns/cars/other male status symbols, show off in stupid ways to attract the attention of the nearest female thing, make goddawful sexist jokes, and so forth.
And, no, it's not just blue-collar guys that do this -- geeks are just as bad, if not worse. Just more erudite about it. *g*
I'm not sure if the basic objection is the belief that men don't really do this, or if fandom is well aware that men do it and the characters are probably doing it off-camera but we just don't want to see them do it. And I'll fully admit that there's a definite gender imbalance in the way that sort of thing is depicted -- i.e. most women are just as crude amongst themselves and objectify men just as badly (*cough*FANDOM*cough*), but it's not something you typically see on a show like SGA. (This was one of the reasons I liked Trio so much; we finally got to see the women doing a little of that!) But I guess I run into the Wall of Bafflement when I start seeing the implication that the writers of SGA are doing something wrong for depicting their male characters acting like just about every man I've ever known. Maybe I'd be able to see the point more easily if the boys of SGA mistreated women, or had trouble taking orders from women, but they don't; John, for example, seems to have a perfectly easygoing friendship with Teyla, and no trouble at all accepting Elizabeth or Sam as his boss. (Well, no more trouble than he does with any authority figure.) The one real exception I can think of is Rodney's dismissive attitude towards Sam, but it's not specifically her -- he's just the same way with Zelenka or any other scientist around him, regardless of gender.
I guess I'm also hugely biased because I actually like SGA as, basically, the Red Green Show in space. That's a big part of its appeal for me -- I crack up watching grown men behaving like the little boys that I am absolutely positive my husband and all my male relatives would turn into if you gave them a spaceship and a big box of alien robot parts. I can certainly recognize that this might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't want my guys sanitized and watered down, and I get a little knee-jerky defensive of them, especially since they don't seem to have any behavioral problems other than acting like overgrown adolescents as soon as the womens' backs are turned, which is exactly what most of the guys I've known do, too.
(Though I could totally go for more of the girls being girls, as well as the guys being guys.)
Basically, it appears that at least some of the fandom object to the guys of SGA being depicted as, well, guys: divvying up alien princesses, competing to impress a girl and the like.
I hate to tell you folks, but this not only reads as perfectly normal guy behavior to me, but it is just the very tip of the iceberg -- if anything, SGA is sanitizing for television like whoa. I've had plenty of opportunity in my life to observe men of all ages in their natural habitat, i.e. sans women (or at least women they felt like censoring themselves around), and, yes, I can pretty much assure you that most of your boyfriends, husbands, brothers, and male friends really do get together amongst themselves and rate women based on breast size, compete over who has the biggest/best/most guns/cars/other male status symbols, show off in stupid ways to attract the attention of the nearest female thing, make goddawful sexist jokes, and so forth.
And, no, it's not just blue-collar guys that do this -- geeks are just as bad, if not worse. Just more erudite about it. *g*
I'm not sure if the basic objection is the belief that men don't really do this, or if fandom is well aware that men do it and the characters are probably doing it off-camera but we just don't want to see them do it. And I'll fully admit that there's a definite gender imbalance in the way that sort of thing is depicted -- i.e. most women are just as crude amongst themselves and objectify men just as badly (*cough*FANDOM*cough*), but it's not something you typically see on a show like SGA. (This was one of the reasons I liked Trio so much; we finally got to see the women doing a little of that!) But I guess I run into the Wall of Bafflement when I start seeing the implication that the writers of SGA are doing something wrong for depicting their male characters acting like just about every man I've ever known. Maybe I'd be able to see the point more easily if the boys of SGA mistreated women, or had trouble taking orders from women, but they don't; John, for example, seems to have a perfectly easygoing friendship with Teyla, and no trouble at all accepting Elizabeth or Sam as his boss. (Well, no more trouble than he does with any authority figure.) The one real exception I can think of is Rodney's dismissive attitude towards Sam, but it's not specifically her -- he's just the same way with Zelenka or any other scientist around him, regardless of gender.
I guess I'm also hugely biased because I actually like SGA as, basically, the Red Green Show in space. That's a big part of its appeal for me -- I crack up watching grown men behaving like the little boys that I am absolutely positive my husband and all my male relatives would turn into if you gave them a spaceship and a big box of alien robot parts. I can certainly recognize that this might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't want my guys sanitized and watered down, and I get a little knee-jerky defensive of them, especially since they don't seem to have any behavioral problems other than acting like overgrown adolescents as soon as the womens' backs are turned, which is exactly what most of the guys I've known do, too.
(Though I could totally go for more of the girls being girls, as well as the guys being guys.)
no subject
I thought you and I might see eye to eye on this, and I haven't got around to answering your comment yet (but I will!) but I think your comment about private vs. public space also touches on something I brought up in an above comment: by attacking our guys' private conversations about women as sexist and wrong, I feel like we're pathologizing healthy human sexuality. Men talk about women, women talk about men (and gay men and gay women talk about men and women respectively) -- it's what we, as sexual beings, DO. Even though I waffle in and out of slash fandom, and I'm not always completely comfortable with the way that slash objectifies the men on the show, I do appreciate the sexual openness of that corner of fandom, and the fact that slash fen aren't shy about presenting the male characters as sex objects (as women on the show are often not allowed to do). But it seems very puzzling for me to see fandom then turn around and criticize the characters on the show for doing the same thing. It'd be different if they were mistreating or discriminating against the women on the show, but they're not. Why can't the male characters get together and talk about hot girls sometimes? We get together and talk about them!
no subject
I actually get very annoyed whenever any man feels he has to edit his thoughts in my presence, whether he's telling a joke, or talking about a girl he finds attractive. Because, like I said, I'm more than happy to respond in kind. Getting a man who thinks he's not a prude to blush is, in fact, one of my favorite past-times. Hee hee hee.
no subject
Yep, definitely agree with this (surprise, surprise *g*). I don't want the men in my life to feel as if they have to try to pretend to be something they're not in order to be around me. (Heh ... much as Rodney is doing with Keller in canon right now, I suppose!) If I want them to accept me as I am (and I do!) then I have to be willing to meet them halfway and do the same.